vinniemak said:mrblackpcs2...can you please answer to the following:

(A) The invoice price...is it the same usually for a car that you find on Edmunds.com...so for example the 2004 Pilot AWD, EXL w/Navigation has a sticker of $ 32,870.00 with an invoice of $ 29,568.00.

(B) Let's say for argument sake, I write down $ 27,568 "out the door t/t"

Is that what you mean?? $ 2k below invoice...or did you mean something else. Also Tax & Tag..can you please elaborate?? Sorry, if it sounds really DUMB, but we have 5% sales tax here in Mass...you don't mean inclusive of sales tax do you?? Boy, that could be really insulting..

Thanks in advance for your response.

Best regards,

Vinnie
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P.S : By the way, you had the BEST response of anyone out there......thanks for your input !!

(A) Edmunds is usually right on point with their pricing.
(B) Thats correct

Tax & Tags:
So in your state tax on the example vehicle would be 1378.5, correct?

sticker= $32,870
invoice= $29,569
true dealer cost if car sold within 90 days(holdback)= $29,017
tax/tags= $1378.50
lowball price= $27,569
invoice plus tax/tags $30,395

The reason the dealers will allow this price is because they dont like to gamble with their holdback and hidden profits that mfgs extend to volume dealers. I n addition to hold back some mfgs offer volume dealers $200-$1000 when they reach certain volume levels. You must understand the dealer and saleman arent on the same page. Dealers get paid even when the salesman make his "flat". Its hard to calculate volume bonuses dealers get, but you cant leave them out either. I havent found viable info on any website that pertains to this volume discount, but from experience I have witnessed it numerous times. Especially when a new body style is coming out. The worst a mfg can do is have old body styles sitting on lots. Any one who has viewed invoices at length can testify that their are numbers on the invoice that are lowers than inoice-holdback. Ford has a z and g plans they offer that are less than hold back. Dealers will offer salesmen extra bonus money to sell certain vehicles.

So on this example vehicle i would want to be around $30,395 or less.

mrblackpcs2.....you da man.......

Okay, getting back to the same example again:

(A) The $ 27,568.00 "out the door t/t" price that I would "bravely write on the dealers sales form" is actually $ 2k below invoice + INCLUDES ALL TAXES INCLUDING SALES TAX, Destination charge, Dealer prep fee, shining the car fee, drinkin' his coffee fee...etc...etc.

(B) Offering such a low ball price could be "almost insulting" don't you think?? I am kinda crazy that ways and would "probably" make such an offer, but it could provoke a VERY NEGATIVE reaction, don't you think?? I don't want to be in the way of a "big sales manager" getting totally belligerent !! However, do let me know what you think??

You are saying that at the end of the day to be in the $ 30,395~ <in the ball park>... which actually works out to be like $ 650 ~ or so below invoice (including all fees plus sales tax).

Again, mrblackpcs2....your posts have been excellent and I know will help me a lot.

Best regards,

Vinnie
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vinniemak said:mrblackpcs2.....you da man.......

Okay, getting back to the same example again:

(A) The $ 27,568.00 "out the door t/t" price that I would "bravely write on the dealers sales form" is actually $ 2k below invoice + INCLUDES ALL TAXES INCLUDING SALES TAX, Destination charge, Dealer prep fee, shining the car fee, drinkin' his coffee fee...etc...etc.

(B) Offering such a low ball price could be "almost insulting" don't you think?? I am kinda crazy that ways and would "probably" make such an offer, but it could provoke a VERY NEGATIVE reaction, don't you think?? I don't want to be in the way of a "big sales manager" getting totally belligerent !! However, do let me know what you think??

You are saying that at the end of the day to be in the $ 30,395~ <in the ball park>... which actually works out to be like $ 650 ~ or so below invoice (including all fees plus sales tax).

Again, mrblackpcs2....your posts have been excellent and I know will help me a lot.

Best regards,

Vinnie
=============

Yea the point is to piss him off and let him know you wont be pushed around. Like i said when he comes over or writes back "wher are you getting your numbers, calmly say or write "I was wondering the same thing about your numbers" He's high balling you, so why cant you low ball him? If you piss him off thats good. It show his inexperience and fustration. I have sat at the table and not spoke to a buyer for an hour while they continuouslly scream and cuss me. All I would do is point at my number. They would right new numbers, I would x it out and point at my number. Once they got emotional I had them. Think about it they stayed there for an hour. They could have walked out. Well it was a stage 3 roush cobra...lol. Be Calm, Be patient.

--------------------private------------------
hey sounds like you are a dealer. I'm not getting a car myself, but when I do, I think the fax attack would suit me best because i'd hate to buy a car below invoice and cause the salesperson to waste his day and make the minmium. Do you think it's fair to sak for below invoice on popular cars such as camry's, accords, or 3 series bmws? thanks
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Wanted to share this.............

HELL YEA ITS FAIR!!!
They deal in volume with the popular cars.
You'll get a better discount on a Gt mustang than u will on a cobra or roush

You can use the fax if u want, but you dont know who you are dealling with, neither do they. Dealers spend alot of money to get you into the dealerships. They want to max those advertising dollars. They get thousands of faxes per month some bs some real buyers. My bosses daughter handled those faxes when i was selling, until i got smart that is.

samdave1 said:If you haven't read this before, check this article out. Confessions of a Car Salesman from Edmunds

Here are some highlights:

A new salesman talking to another salesman about test driving a car:
-- "You mean, you ask him if he wants to demo the car?" I asked.
"Hell no. They never go for a demo if you ask them. 'Cause they know they're weak. If they drive it they'll buy it. The feel of the wheel will seal the deal, my friend. So you got to kidnap them, man. Just slam the door and take off. Come on, let's go." --

On the system:
-- "I could only answer that the system was not set up for educated people who thought for themselves, it wasn't to help customers make informed decisions. The system was designed to catch people off guard, to score a quick sale, to exploit people who were weak or uninformed. Those were our buyers." --

All of this is true!!!

An Assistant Sales Manager on using the Internet for pricing:
-- "They're all on the Internet trying to find out what our invoice price is. We never even get a shot at them. I hate it. I mean, would they go (to a mall) and say, 'What's your invoice price on that beautiful suit?' No. So why are they doing it here?" --

On talking financing:
-- "It was clear that the minivan couple could have made a better deal and saved several thousand dollars. So where did they go wrong? Well, first of all, they negotiated as monthly payment buyers, rather than bargaining on the purchase price of the vehicle." --

It's not necessarily the Salesperson, but the manager/dealership owner:
-- "...the managers and dealership owners are the real culprits. While salesmen play people games with the customer, the guys in the tower work the numbers with computers, their eyes fixed on the bottom line. They can see at a glance what kind of profit they are taking from the customer and they do it any way. Furthermore, they bully the sales staff, encouraging them to manipulate, control and intimidate customers while they take the lion's share of the profit." --

100% true

vinniemak said:mrblackpcs2....

One more TIME...going back to the same example:

(A) Let's just say that I walk into a Boston area Honda dealership...and sit down, tell the salesman, "it is an INVOICE deal on this Pilot...blah blah..., however, if I get my askin' price, will take care of you...and I'll FLASH a $ 100 bill..". So far so good...hope he bites...

(B) Then I'll tell him to get me his best deal from the sales manager...and WHAT IF...he comes back and it is THE INVOICE PRICE...<that COULD HAPPEN don't you think!!!>

Then what do I do....swallow hard...and still write down $ 27,568 "T/T out the door"??

The sales manager if he shows up will say...where the F*@! am I gettin' my numbers?? I can't say THE SAME PLACE HE'S GETTIN' HIS...since he quoted INVOICE right off the BAT...and I am the one makin' up numbers??

Just wondering...sorry, but I am gearin' up for these scenarios...car sales managers are amongst the TRICKIEST of peoples on this planet !!

lol
It wont be that easy. If by chance they give you invoice from the jump. Write"include tax and tags" and its a deal.

I know your question was directed torware mrblackpcs2 but.

(B) Then I'll tell him to get me his best deal from the sales manager...and WHAT IF...he comes back and it is THE INVOICE PRICE...<that COULD HAPPEN don't you think!!!>

That is never going to happen. Not in this case. In a situation where they come back with invoice pricing, it means you have not done your homework. The prices for the particular vehicle should sell way under invoice.

mrblackpcs2, if I buy a camry AT invoice price b4 the rebates. Does the salesperson get anything? I thought they get 25% of the money over invoice?

I did a quick search on FW and someone recommended PenFed for auto loans. They have new car loans at 4.25%. If you do not meet their requirements for membership, you can join the National Military Family Association for $20 and have access to the benefits of PenFed. Anyone else dealt with them or other auto loan companies.

Is that OTD price?

vkl168 said: here's the deal I got so far: Silver EX-L w/Navi, running boards, crossbars, wheel locks, cargo net, and rear mud guards. Plus I got them to waive the DOC Fee =P. Price 30,050(that put me well under invocie) right where I wanted to be.Only problem was APR First they offered 5.9% I was like are you kidding try again please. They come back with 4.39% (my g/f's mom has stellar credit plus they've financed with AHFC b4) but I already had in mind what APR I wanted and I was not going to settle unless I got 3.69%. So we walked... I'm not worry too much. There are always deals to be had. and the time to buy is ripe on 04 models. If I dont get a call back I'll sharpened up my game plan for the great labor day bash!

You walked into a dealership without a pre-approved loan on an interests rate you wanted? Do that first with your bank, credit union..etcs and see if the dealer will beat that too.