kmj1104 said:Okay, there's a lot of good advice out here, but I've got a few things to add too. I've taken a zillion business courses over the years, including negotiating. I've negotiated for a ton of things, including cars, both used and new and I've got a few things to share too. Most of the advice that's been given is right on and should work, but when it comes to paying invoice, you can definitely get the car for at least $1,000 less than invoice if you negotiate it right. While it makes sense that the best time to buy the car is at the end of the month, that's not always true. You can negotiate a good deal at any time if you've got a good strategy. I usually just let them show me around, then I tell them what I'm looking for (I always know what I want before I go in) and then we sit down and talk. These points are not unethical like some of the things I've already heard. Be honest about what you're doing and don't lie, just be flexible. Here are a few points that somewhat mirror what's already been said..

first off thank you for adding your stamp of approval to this topic.
should work huh? Real believer? Lol. I averaged 35 cars per month. It worked everyday.
The tools I'm giving you will get you less than 1000k below invoice. These numbers we are speaking of in this post are invoice (inluding tax/tags) less any mfg rebates. Not Quite sure I've heard any thing that was "unethical".
For that matter I'm not sure if you can associate ethics with the car buying/selling experience either. Why Not lie if you have to? A dealer is not gonna tell you they have 6k of mark up in that used 2003 honda u want to buy.

1) You need a good BATNA. What's a BATNA? It's the Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement. Basically what are your options if you don't come to an agreement? You can walk out the door. You can always still give in and purchase it 100% on their terms. You can just not purchase one at all. You can purcahse at another dealer. You can look at a different model car, etc. Just your other options. Be willing to walk out. Be willing to buy a different car. Be willing to change your strategy..

My advice is not to give in or settle on a different model, or different car. My advice here is to maximize the deal to get exactly what you want for the least amount of money.

2) The principle of bracketing. Bracketing is really saying that almost all negotiations will "meet in the middle." I offer $5000, they offer $10000, We usually end up somewhere in the middle around $7500. So if you're willing to pay $29000, They offered $31000, you should offer $27000. That'll get you to about $29000 when you're done. This is an especially effective technique..

I'd love to sell you a used car if this how you think.
You offere 5k for a car I sticker at 10k, I have 6k in markup
You pay 7500k I make 3500k in pure profit just on the front end.
Lmao

Or maybe I'll sell you the new car...
Since you are willing to pay 29k out the door for a car that stickers for 31k
I'll make you happy with out discounting then the car by you logic


3) Who should make the first offer? Should you make the first offer as has been suggested by other in this thread? Maybe. Sometimes it's to your advantage, sometimes it's not. I've walked into a dealership where they had a sticker of $16500, they offered me flat invoice at $14500 to start. Big mistake on their part. Ended up getting around $13000 for a brand new Honda Civic. Sometimes the first offer ends up as the anchor point and negotiations always go up or down from that number. Don't let that happen unless it's to your advantage. If they offer something that's way too high, offer something that's way too low to remove the anchor price..

Since you have taken a "zillion" negotiating courses(kinda like watching a zillion pornos, I guess you are a porn star too?) You should know the first person that talks will lose. It an old expressions in negotiating.


4) You need to give something in order to get. I don't mean offer to buy an alarm at $1000 if they cut the vehicle price by $500. Offer to "consider" buying an alarm or extended warranty from them if they're willing to give you your price. Point out the fact that if you finance through them or you buy some other products from them, they'll make a lot more money on you. Yes, that may be giving a buying signal, but if you get the right price, you're going to buy, right? Just walking into the dealership is a buying signal. Sometimes you can get them to throw in free oil changes for 3 years or a moonroof, or even floor mats if you just ask for it. If maybe the negotiations are down to $100, maybe it might be worth just paying that extra $100 if you can get floor mats, free oil changes for 3 years and an extra set of keys (Which can be really expensive nowadays!)..

Dealers Dont throw in a moonroof.
Either they had one installed on a similar vehicle and could not sell it or you left alot of money on the table. If you take care of the salesman You can get extra keys anytime. keys arent expensive just what they charge you to program them.
Most dealers have a box full of extra remotes. Most salesman can program regualr keys and remotes in 2minutes. If its a coded key trust me they can get their buddy to program it on his break bewtween other vehicles.


5) Be prepared to invest some time. The more of their time you spend (waste?) with them, the more willing they would be to get you the deal you want. You could haggle for 8 hours and if they're still not giving you what you want, walk out. They'll be very unhappy about wasting 8 hours, and will most likely give you what you want. Don't waste their time, just invest some effort into negotiating a good deal..

This is not really true. Dealers want you in and out. Dont waste their time or yours. Most good salesman know if you are a buyer within 30min of talking to you.


6) Creep towards your limit. Let's say I really was willing to pay $22500, but I offered $20000. They said no way, be more realistic. If you go straight to $22500, jumping $2500, they'll think you can get a lot higher than that. Creep up slowly. Go to $2100. Next go to $2150. Maybe $2175 next. $2190 after that. By slowly diminishing the amount you're giving in each time, you're able to create the image that you're not going to go higher than $22000, because you keep going up in smaller increments. They may just sell it to you for $22000..

This is their game. This is what a dealer wants. Dont do this!!!



7) Show some interest. Some people say that you shouldn't show any buying signals. I disagree and I think you should. If you intend to buy a car, tell them that. They'll take you more seriously that somebody who they're not sure of is really going to buy a car or not. If you tell them you're interested in purchasing a vehicle, they'll try harder to work for you. Just remember that you don't have to buy it from them, and don't get suckered into paying something you don't want to pay..

Showing interest and buying signals are two different things.
Face it if you werent interested you wouldnt be at the dealer. Buying signals are often times unconscious. sweat, nervousness, finance questions, payment questions, etc


8) Be willing to make a deposit. Pull out your credit card and offer to make a $500-$1000 deposit "right now" if they'll give you what you want. It shows you're serious about your intent to purchase and they may be more willing to give you what you want if they can get a deposit..

Complete waste of time. Why make a deposit. A dealer knows its refundable, unless they order a vehicle for you. Besides now their more paper work from a guy whos not sure he wants to buy. Buy the car or not, dealers look at this as a jerk off move.


Obviously negotiating skills come with experience and while I was never a car salesman or finance manager, these are just basic negotiating skills you can use in every aspect of life, not just when you're buying your car. Hope this helps some people, and flame all you want, everyone has their own style and techniques, I'm just sharing mine that work for me.


Not flaming you(alot) but post like this offset the thread and confuse people. All I can is I wish there where more car buyers like you when I was selling. I'd be in vega right now living it up.
Good salesman love guys like you. We see you before you get up in the morning. You have it all figured out. And I showed you how I used to stick it to guys like you based on your own examples. Those were real scenarios by the way.

A typical used car has at least 6k worth of markup.

Thanks for the post its been very entertaining

ezwinner701 said:Is that really possible? $1000 of an american might be easy, how about japanese cars and european cars?.

Now this is very funny.

First of all imports are not always better!

Point in case.
Most european and japanese and everywhere else in the world prefer american cars.

Second point so do we.
Thats why most of the top selling cars are american. And its not because of price. The prices arent that much cheaper on american cars.

Most of the advice that's been given is right on and should work, but when it comes to paying invoice, you can definitely get the car for at least $1,000 less than invoice if you negotiate it right


I don't care how much negotiation you do, you are not going to get invoice or below invoice if the demand for that vehicle is high. This demand usually means that you want to be one of the first few "selected individuals" to own that vehicle. I'll give you an example. Acura just released the 2005 RL (probably going to hit the showroom in November.) Forget $1000 less invoice.. Try to get that vehicle off invoice. It's not going to happen how much you negotiate, beg, scream..

Now if you wait until October of 2005, you are probably going to get that vehicle for invoice. This is exactly what happend to the Acura 2004 TL.

thanks mrblack, am waiting for the new BMW 3 and 4 series. my friend is trying to buy a 2004 330ci, u think invoice price is good ?

ezwinner701 said:thanks mrblack, am waiting for the new BMW 3 and 4 series. my friend is trying to buy a 2004 330ci, u think invoice price is good ?

I wouldnt buy a 3 series. Get a real car buy a 5 series and up. Anything less you are only paying for the logo

ezwinner701 said:okay.. agreed but it's alot more for the 5 series. The new 5 series is ugly IMO, 6 seris is HOT but way too pricy and demand is high. What would you think it's a good price on a 5 and 6? thx

mrblackpcs2 said:ezwinner701 said:thanks mrblack, am waiting for the new BMW 3 and 4 series. my friend is trying to buy a 2004 330ci, u think invoice price is good ?

I wouldnt buy a 3 series. Get a real car buy a 5 series and up. Anything less you are only paying for the logo

sticker...lol

ezwinner701 said:hehe.. that's what i thought.. let us know how u do on ur BMW

no really i should be around 52k for the 545i

Some guy got my friend drunk & bought his truck for a song. Real story too.

vkl168 said: Most of the advice that's been given is right on and should work, but when it comes to paying invoice, you can definitely get the car for at least $1,000 less than invoice if you negotiate it right


I don't care how much negotiation you do, you are not going to get invoice or below invoice if the demand for that vehicle is high. This demand usually means that you want to be one of the first few "selected individuals" to own that vehicle. I'll give you an example. Acura just released the 2005 RL (probably going to hit the showroom in November.) Forget $1000 less invoice.. Try to get that vehicle off invoice. It's not going to happen how much you negotiate, beg, scream..

Now if you wait until October of 2005, you are probably going to get that vehicle for invoice. This is exactly what happend to the Acura 2004 TL.

Which is one reason why you never buy the "hot car" unless you want to pay sticker plus - it automaticaly lowers your pricing strategy because the salesman knows that there is little chance that you are going to walk,

mrblackpcs2, just to be clear on something. Say, I'm negotiating $2,000 below invoice, is the figure I write on the back on the sheet with t/t taking into account rebates?

For example:
MSRP: 38k
Invoice: $35k
Offer w/ t/t: $33k (this is what I write on the sheet)
Rebates available: $5k
Final Price: $28k

The ads in the paper by me have dealerships offering the following: "dealer discount", "rebate", "finance bonus", "car maker loyalty", etc. After you take into account all these offers before negotiating, the "buy for only" price (MSRP - offers) is below invoice.

I just want to be sure that when I negotiate price below invoice, these "discounts" are more like icing on the cake and that I shouldn't listen to their story that I'm already getting it below invoice with these offers, blah, blah, blah....

While I'm at it, I'm looking for a vehicle with 3rd row seating, handles well in snow and decent gas mileage? Any suggestions? Pacifica? The family has gotten bigger recently.

Thanks again for your time on this thread. And, if you are ever in the Lower Hudson Valley, let me know, I owe you a homebrew! I hope you like a Honey Pale Ale.