mrblackpcs2,

just wanted to toss my hat into the ring - reading that other thread is so exciting for some reason! so thanks for the advice and all the great info!

now the advice for my question is probably similar to the advice you gave concerning 'hot' cars, but i just wanted to double check what your thoughts were (cause you also said mazdas weren't 'hot' so...).

i'm looking at the recently released:
mazda3 sp23
5 door/hatchback
5 speed manual
BLACK interior
moonroof
security package

here's the link to a PDF i created of the car with all the options. i couldn't get the final screen ('step 3') to be an absolute link and retain all my option information.

i've called/chatted with a few dealers around the area (Boston, MA) and they seem to be hesitant to quote me a price on this car. saying it's the special edition, in high demand, etc etc. so any advice you give me is greatly appreciated.

i hope i did that correctly! thanks again.

there's definitely one that has it in stock, and another that should be getting this exact car in soon.

the only problem with the first dealer (that does have it) is that i went down and chatted with them on monday (last day of the feb)...walked out cause i wasn't sure about the offer (i made the mistake of mentioning monthly rates - i didn't discover this thread until today!).

so...i actually just got off the phone with the dude and i asked him for his best price, including t/T and he said: "MSRP + t/T" and i kindly thanked him and told him i'd be looking for a better deal.

I remember my friend paid the full MSRP+tax for the MazdaSpeed Turbo protege (orange), my uncle paid full MSRP+200bux for his Odyseyy and many people are paying more than MSRP for Minis. If the car is hot, seems like it is cuz of limited production. Your best bet is to find one that your dealership has it in stock and RESEARCH the true cost for the car (including all the manufacter rebate,Cash Back...etc) and go from there.

Sfortier17 said:I have read all of mrblackpcs2's advice and its really good...

TO WORKERROBOT:
I have been researching the Mazda 3 for months now (i plan on buying one by the end of summer) and it is a hot selling car, and all the magazines are calling it an amazing car. I believe Consumer Reports is calling it a 2004 best buy or something. For the sake of not injecting personal opinion I can post links to multiple articles about the car if anyone would like. So its hot, but the SP23...? Thats what i want and I can post an email, if you would like, that I got from Mazda Corporate saying how many models there are. The production run is over and only 3500 total were produced, 2500 sedans and 1000 hatches. I would suggest checking out www.mazda3forum.com, they have some great threads about what people have paid for all the models, including the sp23 with different options and stuff. Look at the general discussion sections and check the models/trim sub section in the technical/model/performance area. Once again if you need exact threads, I can probably do it when I get a chance (I am a busy college student). But currently its 2:20 am where I am and I just caught this thread through a link at mazda3forum.com and couldn't stop reading it... so i should be hitting the sack

P.S. Make sure you note the prices that members of that forum are quoting, its international with people from canada, europe, australia and more. But members have their location underneath their usernames so it shouldn't be too difficult to notice.

This seems like a marketing ploy here!!! MFGs payt people to bump their products on boards like this. Not saying it is, but I am cautious of post like this from brand new memebers. That havent logged on since this post.

THE MATRIX HAS YOU!!! IF THEY ARE NOT ONE OF US, THEY ARE ONE OF THEM. WHAT ARE THEY? THEY ARE AGENTS OF THE SYSTEM. THEY CAN BE ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME....--MATRIX,THE CONSTRUCT, TRAINING PROGRAM

Mrblackpcs2 if you read my post you would notice I am a new user because I found a link to the original thread through the mazda3 forums. I guess I cannot prove that I don't work for a manufacturer. I am not going to lie and say I am not enthusiastic about the car because I want it too. Seeing this was a thread about negotiating a great deal, I thought it would be hopeful to post information that I had that could potentially help workerrobot.

Also, if I were working for a manufacturer, wouldn't it be smarter for me to suggest only articles and not a forum? Forums, though dominated by people that are fans of the car, do not hesitate to point out the shortcomings either. Yes, car and driver or motortrend may point out small things or suggestions as they commonly do, but they do not point out the day to day problems that others would. For instance, in the forum there are threads that state there are problems with the check engine light coming on and also many think the airconditioning is too weak. Some say the stereo isn't good enough. I was pointing it out as an honest place to find info. If you want hype, yeah i know you can find it on there too, but it is a great source of honest information about pricing and impressions.

Not to bust your balls mrblackpcs2 but the current u.s.-spec focus and old protege are not as close to the new 3 as you would think. The 3 is a replacement for the protege but the 3 is on a new platform, the C1, that is shared with the Euro-spec focus (awesome car) and the volvo s40. The U.S. focus is still on the old platform and doesn't get many of the goodies (performance-wise) from the euro-spec. The U.S. focus ST however does have similar performance to the 3 because they borrowed the 2.3 liter from the 3. so its a bit more than a revamped protege, and not quite the same thing as a focus as you pointed out in an earlier post.

And about the "hotness" orders ARE outstripping production for the 3 overall, the sp23 is limited, but the rest of the trims are not. Mazda did have a fire at one of its production plants in december or so, which has not helped matters either. As far as sustainability is concerned only time will tell. Here is an excerpt from an article I found:

By James B. Treece
Automotive News / September 06, 2004

The Mazda3 five-door, above, and four-door is the automaker's fastest-selling car.

HIROSHIMA, Japan -- Mazda Motor Corp. plans to build more Mazda3s to meet strong demand in the United States and elsewhere.
The Hofu No. 1 plant builds the Mazda3, known as the Axela in Japan, in sedan and hatchback styles.
"Axela production is not keeping up with orders," says Mazda President Hisakazu Imaki. "We're thinking of adding it to Hofu No. 2 and maybe Ujina No. 2 also."
Mazda is assembling the Mazda3 at an annual pace of about 254,000.
But demand is running at an annual pace of more than 300,000.
Mazda said in May that it would raise output to as much as 320,000 through weekend and overtime work.
But even that increase, which will come from adding production at Hofu No. 2, may not be enough.
Ujina No. 2, next to headquarters in Hiroshima, reopened in May after being closed for more than two years.
It has a capacity of 236,000 vehicles annually and builds only the Demio subcompact, known in Europe as the Mazda2.
--------------
So hopefully that explains why dealerships are being silly about quoting prices, not only do they have a limited production model of the car, but the other models are not being produced fast enough adding to the 'hype' of this newer car.

And i would agree with you on the security system, BUT since it was a pdf and the links didn't work... its actually a package, thats why its so expensive. I don't like stock security systems either, but the package is ABS, a bunch of airbags, xenon headlights, some tire pressure system and then the theft security system. You don't have a choice, Mazda likes to do weird stuff like that, like you can't have the moonroof without purchasing the 6 disc-in-dash cd changer. Personally i don't need a 6 disc, one would do, but i would want the moonroof... so you get kinda screwed like that. But atleast that provides an explanation on that option.

Sfortier17 said:Mrblackpcs2 if you read my post you would notice I am a new user because I found a link to the original thread through the mazda3 forums. I guess I cannot prove that I don't work for a manufacturer. I am not going to lie and say I am not enthusiastic about the car because I want it too. Seeing this was a thread about negotiating a great deal, I thought it would be hopeful to post information that I had that could potentially help workerrobot.

Also, if I were working for a manufacturer, wouldn't it be smarter for me to suggest only articles and not a forum? Forums, though dominated by people that are fans of the car, do not hesitate to point out the shortcomings either. Yes, car and driver or motortrend may point out small things or suggestions as they commonly do, but they do not point out the day to day problems that others would. For instance, in the forum there are threads that state there are problems with the check engine light coming on and also many think the airconditioning is too weak. Some say the stereo isn't good enough. I was pointing it out as an honest place to find info. If you want hype, yeah i know you can find it on there too, but it is a great source of honest information about pricing and impressions.

Typical....

Not to bust your balls mrblackpcs2 but the current u.s.-spec focus and old protege are not as close to the new 3 as you would think.

Dont remember saying this either.....I remember saying "I know whats being hyped about this car...Remeber its still basically a Protege revamped a bit. Lots of car in this segment that are still better. Civic, Colbalt, Focus, etc..."

The 3 is a replacement for the protege but the 3 is on a new platform, the C1, that is shared with the Euro-spec focus (awesome car) and the volvo s40. The U.S. focus is still on the old platform and doesn't get many of the goodies (performance-wise) from the euro-spec. The U.S. focus ST however does have similar performance to the 3 because they borrowed the 2.3 liter from the 3. so its a bit more than a revamped protege, and not quite the same thing as a focus as you pointed out in an earlier post.

Again when you decide to straighten me out in the future at least quote what I say exactly. Thats where problems arrise on this thread. You get some newbie not reading but assuming someone said something they didnt.

And about the "hotness" orders ARE outstripping production for the 3 overall, the sp23 is limited, but the rest of the trims are not.

Then why are they still sitting on lots? I found 17 at one dealer and 20 at another not looking at the other 5 dealers just in charlotte, all sp23s

Mazda did have a fire at one of its production plants in december or so, which has not helped matters either. As far as sustainability is concerned only time will tell. Here is an excerpt from an article I found:

By James B. Treece
Automotive News / September 06, 2004

The Mazda3 five-door, above, and four-door is the automaker's fastest-selling car.

HIROSHIMA, Japan -- Mazda Motor Corp. plans to build more Mazda3s to meet strong demand in the United States and elsewhere.
The Hofu No. 1 plant builds the Mazda3, known as the Axela in Japan, in sedan and hatchback styles.
"Axela production is not keeping up with orders," says Mazda President Hisakazu Imaki. "We're thinking of adding it to Hofu No. 2 and maybe Ujina No. 2 also."
Mazda is assembling the Mazda3 at an annual pace of about 254,000.
But demand is running at an annual pace of more than 300,000.
Mazda said in May that it would raise output to as much as 320,000 through weekend and overtime work.
But even that increase, which will come from adding production at Hofu No. 2, may not be enough.
Ujina No. 2, next to headquarters in Hiroshima, reopened in May after being closed for more than two years.
It has a capacity of 236,000 vehicles annually and builds only the Demio subcompact, known in Europe as the Mazda2.
--------------
So hopefully that explains why dealerships are being silly about quoting prices, not only do they have a limited production model of the car, but the other models are not being produced fast enough adding to the 'hype' of this newer car.

And i would agree with you on the security system, BUT since it was a pdf and the links didn't work... its actually a package, thats why its so expensive. I don't like stock security systems either, but the package is ABS, a bunch of airbags, xenon headlights, some tire pressure system and then the theft security system. You don't have a choice, Mazda likes to do weird stuff like that, like you can't have the moonroof without purchasing the 6 disc-in-dash cd changer. Personally i don't need a 6 disc, one would do, but i would want the moonroof... so you get kinda screwed like that. But atleast that provides an explanation on that option.

This thread is about the negotiation not the technical aspect of the car. I used to love guys like you when i was selling. You made my job easy. Coming into the dealership all pumped up on stats, tourque ratios, axles, and the such. Made it really easy to burry your type in cars.

Ahhh mrblackpcs2...

You state that you love guys who show stats and are pumped up... la dee da dee da. But I thought, after carefully reading all the previous posts, that you use them to help explain things better. So I thought I was simply helping to support my point of view.

What is typical about my post? Forums provide information which can help people prepare to purchase a car from a dealer who is trying to milk profit from them. Or do you not do any research and just buy vehicles on a whim? I would hope not, but then what is your problem with forums? if you intend to insult me with your cute little remarks about me being with a manufacturer or saying I am so typical, maybe you should explain yourself hotshot. After all, this is a forum too...

As far as you saying its a revamped protege, its technically a new car. The new chassis, body and engines all point to that. And in your opinion, the civic, cobalt, and the focus are better? With what proof? Reliability? I won't argue with the civic, but the cobalt is as untested as the 3. Performance? To get similar performance one must get an expensive Cobalt SS model. And the stock civic is far less HP. Better body styles? The civic performance model the SI, only comes in a two door hatch which is not necesarily what everyone wants. The Focus ST only comes in the sedan. My point is that calling these cars better is simply your opinion. It is irrelevant because you did not state how they were better. I simply said that the focus is similar but on an older platform. Therefore its not really fair to call either car better unless you have some way to show it, which i attempted to show by explaining its slightly older technology. And you are right, this thread is about negotiation, I was simply explaining my point and this need not be discussed anymore.

As far as finding 17 on one lot and 20 on another all sp23's without checking the other five dealerships in charlotte, I would like to see where you got that info. I am not saying you are lying at all, simply I have not been so lucky in my searches but I am in a different region of the country. Next, I am assuming that with your background selling cars that you would understand turnaround and how ordering works. Yes you can find the car on the lot, but not always exactly what you want. Sometimes it is very difficult to find one in your area with all your options and therefore, you must order one. Not too mention that dealerships like to keep a certain number of cars on the lot to have ready for sale. Therefore, due to expectations that mfr have for the vehicle sales, dealerships order the number of cars that will keep their inventories stocked. As you must know, not everybody wants to order a car because that can sometimes take longer than a buyer wants to wait. Since the cars are selling better than expected orders increase to the factory, in this case, at a rate that is more than the production plant can keep up with.

So as far as you burying, not burrying, me in cars. Knowing stats is just more knowledge, and last time i checked it doesn't hurt to be a gearhead. furthermore, assuming that because someone knows performance stats they do not know how to negotiate and don't know how to handle finance, knowing holdbacks, and how invoices and such work is rather insulting. That is as bad as assuming that because you made a spelling error, that you have inferior intelligence, which would be insulting to you. I think we all know the golden rule of what happens when you assume right?
As long as we are clarifying everything here... Do you atleast understand the security group package for Workerrobot's SP23, despite this little spat between you and me, I wanted you to understand that he was not just expecting to pay $1600 for an alarm. This was obviously done to improve your advice to him and not another flashy bit of my tech knowledge.

Sfortier17 said:So Mrblackpcs2 has said: I found 17 at one dealer and 20 at another not looking at the other 5 dealers just in charlotte, all sp23s...
Sorry bub, you must've hit the wrong model, you're wrong.

Interesting indeed... When I did an inventory search with www.mazdausa.com, the official mazda corporation website, there seems to be only 5 SP23's within 150 MILES of Charlotte... Far different than what was quoted. So once again I pose the question, where did you get your information? Don't be offended if I seem a bit more skeptical than questioning this time.

Then if you know the game as well as I do, you would know that MFG websites only post the inventory dealers actually "stock in" to the their systems. However I know that dealers use tricks like not "stocking in" the inventory right away to the system so its hidden from the regional/national system. They do this so they dont have to trade with other dealers and also to give the appearance that the vehcile is limited for sales reasons. RadioShack does this too, when new cell phones come out. So be a skeptic. TAKE THE BLUE BILL...GO BACK HOME. BELEIVE WHATEVER YOU WANT....


In fact, searching for SP23's within 150 miles of Chicago I found 4 SP23 sedans, no hatches.
Within 150 miles of LA: 3 hatches, 3 sedans
Within 150 miles of NYC: 4 hatches, 6 sedans
Within 150 miles of Boston: 6 hatches, 7 sedans
Hmmm... 5 major metropolitan areas and a whopping total of 38 SP23's

THE MATRIX HAS YOU....

I quote you again mrblackpcs2: If it is truely Hot They would only have maybe 5. So i'm not buying into the hype. There are 7 more mazda delaers just in charlotte.

So in your own words this car is hot isn't it? And therefore it would be hard to get the car for invoice... you consider 5 at a dealership hot? what about 5 over an area of roughly 70000 square miles?
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/vlStart.action
try it yourself, first choose five door or four door, type in the info and how many miles to search within, when the results come up choose the drop down menu for Vehicle in the refine vehicle search criteria and choose SP23, not S or i, they are different. You tell me what you find...

To quote a movie I love: "WE'LL START THE A**-KISSING WITH YOU!!!" -- Boondock Saints when FBI agent Smecker proves the Boston detectives wrong...

I'm sure the mazda site says what it says. But first you must understand those numbers arent acurate. Stop believing everything they put out there for you. Its all part of their illusion. I dont live very far from the 2 dealers I spoke about. Also I have earned a lot of trust on this thread because when I say something is a fact it is.When I say its my opinion its just that. I dont sugar coat anything I bring it to you raw. Do you think people here are gonna believe what some know it all newbie read on the net or someone whos been here and physically went to a dealer and saw at least 20 of the vehicle in question? So I guess I read the stickers wrong when I looked at them huh? As I said before this is why guys like you get taken.

GET HIM!!!.....GET HIM!!!....GET HIM!!!...--HOW HIGH, REDMAN & METHODMAN

Storme said:Im looking to get a Hyundai Tiburon GT V6 A4 with Option #6 in 33615 zip.

Heres a link


Can I get this for $19,500 or am I dreaming?

I havent contacted any dealers yet, but theyre listing the car for 22500-23000.

Thanks for posting the proper way...

I think 19500 is a realistic number based on the link you provided, the rebate and holdback.

Go for it. Good luck

Sfortier17 said:Actually I am in a large metropolitan area, Chicago, and I too have been to the lots in person and my findings share that of mazda's website. Hardly any to be found. i didn't think that you would believe me if I said I had been to the lots so I brought the mazda site info up.

I believe I have gotten across what I what I was attempting to say atleast... Regardless of some of your replies.

So why doesnt the website show any negative numbers if they are preselling or taking orders. Which you typically see inh the case of "HOT" cars? Again I never said every dealer, in every state plays trick with the inventory. But obvious some in my area are because I know what I saw.

Yes, I am sure the matrix has me neo...

I have no doubts about your apparent expertise on most of this thread, I had just questioned some of your information that I believed to be folly. I don't think I am a know it all, but I think I know some and am rather stubborn...

Beleive what you will...

However, in light of this thread. I do have a question that does have to do with negotiating that I do believe would benefit all. On edmunds.com you put in your zip code, however when you "create" your vehicle, the TMV value has a REGIONAL ADJUSTMENT. By the way, I fully realize the True Market Value is only what people say they paid and not really accurate in my opinion (judging by the testaments of people on this thread buying for right near invoice or below). So I don't need a lecture on that, however my question is whether that adjustment is accurate, here is what edmunds say:

Regional Adjustment
The amount by which the National Base Price must be adjusted to account for regional variations in pricing, based on the Zip Code entered.

Basically, if people use edmunds (and obviously a lot do to check invoice) should they be wary of this number and not be thrown off by it since it could mean the difference of almost $100 in this case. Maybe a bit more depending on their loan or finance rate. Personally I ignore it, because I know that even at invoice the dealership is making its money, but should I be?
Link to example car
Ok, once again edmunds is goofy and doesn't show the results screen through a link, so hit the link, then scroll down a bit and hit TMV Pricing Report and You will see it in the right column.


The regional adjustment is pretty much accurate. Thats why I ask for your zip so I can give you a better number to work with. Of course they make money at invoice. You have to factor in dealer holdback, dealers pay plan, dealer bonus incentives, etc.... Thats why many peopl who used this thread have been getting invoice or below including tax/tags