how to negotiate a great deal on a USED car?

Well I decided to start a thread that focuses on USED cars. That way there isnt much confusion with the strategy....
----------------------------------------Research-------------------------------------
I still recommend you read the previous threads:
How To Negotiate A Great Deal On A New Car!!!! Reloaded

How To Negotiate A Great Deal On A New Car!!!

How To Negotiate A Great Deal On Car Financing!!!
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----------------------------------------How To Post----------------------------------


>Edmunds.com
Click on the Used Car Aprraiser
Find the Vehicle you are looking to buy.
Write down the trade in price and the dealer retail

>Not go to Black Book Value]
***Dealer use the black book more than the blue book because the trade in value is lower.

****if you dont know your milage factor 15000miles x the how old the car is
(ie...2000 is 5 yrs old so that would be 75000 miles)
****subtract $900 from the Trade in value for every 15000 over the average
****add $900 from the Trade in value for every 15000 under the average

>Provide your zip code

>Have You Seen the vehicle in Person Yet?Yes or No?

>you post should look like this example:

-2000 Mercury Grand Marquis LS
-Alloy Rims
-112996miles
-zip=75215
-color=white
-Edmunds Link

-Optional Equipment Copied from edmunds
Optional Equipment $634 $782 $1,036
Digital Instrument Panel $77 $95 $126
Traction Control $32 $39 $52
Electrochromatic Rear View Mirror $34 $42 $56
Power Front Passenger Seat $65 $80 $106
Automatic Climate Control $32 $39 $52
Leather Seats $133 $164 $217
Alloy Wheels $58 $72 $95
Leather Steering Wheel Trim $17 $21 $28
4-Wheel ABS $123 $152 $201
Compact Disc Changer $63 $78 $103
Color Adjustment
White $-29 $-35 $-41
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code 90057 $119 $143 $167
Mileage Adjustment
112,996 miles $-1,498 $-1,498 $-1,498
Condition Adjustment
Outstanding $526 $604 $720
Total $6,286 $7,860 $9,552

-Black Book Report
Condition Trade-In Value Retail Value
Clean $9,230 $11,800 Very low mileage
Average $6,105 $8,075 Mileage less than 15,000 miles per year.
Rough $4,520 $6,750 High mileage
***Notice edmunds list this trade in value @ $6286 while Black Book is $4520 for this same vehicle. $1766 difference!!!

>Tax/Tags
Whatever you percent is(ie...8.25%)+ whatever tags/registration(ie...$49) are
----------------------------------------How To Post----------------------------------

---------------------What the price I should offer?----------------------------------
So for the example vehicle:
MSRP=$11995
Est Invoice=4520
Dealer Prep=500est(Most dealer dont put this much into a prep a car for sale)
Est Tru invoice=5020
tax/tags=415+49=$464
Low ball offer=$3484 including tax(true invoice + tax/tags - 2K)
Target Price=$5020(MSRP or Sale price - Low ball offer / 2 + low ball offer
(this is basically the formula I use)
Good Price=$5500-6020 OTD(Out The Door=including tax/tags, all in, no hidden fees)
Too High=any thing over $6020 OTD
---------------------What the price I should offer?--------------------------------

Please do not PM me with question that can be posted here
I will not respond to post not formated corecttly(see above example)
Also after you purchase the vehicle, get your oil changed right away. I prefer WalMart...because they do a thorough job of inspecting your car. Also they will not work on your car if something is wrong.
***A Friend of mine followed my advice after she bought a car, and WalMart refused to change the oil. They gave her a print out of everything that was wrong with it. She took it back to the dealer and got her money back with no problem. The dealer tried to get her to go to jiffy lube because they dont inspect the cars very well. Just my 2 cents....

mr black,

i asked you before, but apperantly you didn't have the time to respond.

If you had up to 10-12k to spend, would you buy a used or new car. and what model would buy.

Thanks Alot

ramire said: mr black,

i asked you before, but apperantly you didn't have the time to respond.

If you had up to 10-12k to spend, would you buy a used or new car. and what model would buy.

Thanks Alot

guess you cant read

ramire said: i'm sorry all, but what happened was i subscribed to the topic, and they never emailed me that anybody replied.

I appreciate it Mr. Black

no prob

This is awesome, you finally made a thread for USED cars, sweet.

MrBlackPCS, you asked what used car I'm interested in from the other thread (How to negotiate a great deal on a NEW car). Well, the car I want to get is the 2001 740i sport with 18" sport rims, but now I am considering the 2001 E46 M3, which are now selling for around ~30k, with 40-50k miles.

What are your thoughts?

yesidonoitall said: Go over the used car closely, note if its is good or fair condition, maybe even excellant.
Then check the trade in value at KBB for a like car and don't forget the mileage.
Now we KNOW the dealer did not pay any more than that amount.
Actually he paid less.
Go to trade in a car at a dealer on a new car.
Be ready to faint when you hear their "offer"
They will quickly tell you will all the recent free financing and now suppsed employee pricing of new cars, their is a glut of used, and they are not bringing
"book"

So now you know you can get that used baby for no more the trade in value.

Kelly Blue Book doesnt account for region and is typically 2-4k off in estimates

I have NOT seen the car in person - just excellent pictures.
I am planning on purchasing from an out of state dealer. I told him I had a budget of $16,000 - He was asking 18,100 and says he will "let it go" for 17,400 (not including tax or tag) - is that a good price? What should I offer? THANX!

-2004 Subaru Forester X
-Automatic
-21000miles
-zip=14850-
color=green

-Edmunds.com
Trade In 15041 Dealer 18315

-Black Book Report
Condition Trade-In Value Retail Value
Clean $15180 Very low mileage $17950
Average $14550 Mileage less than 15,000 miles per year. $16875

>Tax/Tags Tax 8% tags $49
What is the price I should offer?----------------------------------

-2002 Silver Honda Civic Ex
-42700 miles
clean history, full title
-zip=19104
-color-silver
-Edumunds Link

-Blue Book Report
Dealer Trade-In - $10,607
Private Party - $11,695
Dealer Retail - $13,557

-Black Book Report
Trade-in Value $11,525
Retail Value $14,025

Asking price - $11595
Auto, 4D sedan, 4 cylinder, ABS, P/window, door and moon-roof, CD player, anti-theft. One owner, full title. No accident. Excellent Carfax history report and full set of maintenance records available. Well-kept and clean, all highway mileage. Price negotiable.

How much should I offer? I have not seen the car in person. Thank you very much.

Well they dropped to 17,200 not including tax and tag but will not budge from there. I think honestly it is in average to clean shape car(except the miles)not rough at all though - the interior is perfect and the outside is near perfect, it is still under the factory warranty. I would do it myself but am not sure what formula you use to come up with the selling price ... so if you wouldn't mind too much to give me a good asking price for an average to clean car. If they don't take it - I will walk away and try with someone else.

Thank you!

Thank you! I will walk.

They seem to only be in CA ... do you know of anyone in the NY or NJ area? Thanks!!

Thanks mrblack for all your assistance,
I'm looking for the following, and have NOT seen the vehicle yet.

-2004 Honda Civic EX Sedan
-15950miles
-zip=18702
-color=black
-Edmunds Link

-Optional Equipment Copied from edmunds
Optional Equipment $481 $511 $624
4-Speed Automatic Transmission $481 $511 $624
Color Adjustment Black $-40 $-44 $-49
Regional Adjustment for Zip Code 18702 $-29 $-31 $-35
Mileage Adjustment 15,950 miles $104 $104 $104
Outstanding $584 $600 $691
Total $13,738 $14,796 $16,686
Certified $17,773

-Black Book Report
Condition Trade-In Value Retail Value
Clean $14,230 $16,825
Average $13,940 $16,150
Rough $11,385 $14,300

-Tax/Tag
6%+$58.50

The dealer has an online price of $16,995 that I found from a Honda Certified Used Car search. What should I offer? Thanks

asianguy said: I contacted the dealer, and the starting asking price was $19,990. How much should I offer? Thanks ahead, your posts have been really informative and helpful.

-2004 Honda Element EX 4WD
-5 speed Manual Transmission
-11,612 miles
-ZIP = 84111
-Color = Green

Link to actual car


Edmunds.com


National Base Price $16,086 $16,856 $18,138
Optional Equipment $0 $0 $0
Color Adjustment
Light Green $-20 $-21 $-22
Regional Adjustment $70 $74 $79
Mileage Adjustment $341 $341 $341
Condition Adjustment(Clean) $0 $0 $0
Total $16,477 $17,250 $18,536

Certified Used Vehicle $20,000


Black Book
Condition Trade-In Value Retail Value
Clean $15,700 $18,550
Average $15,230 $17,550
Rough $12,345 $15,525


Taxes/Tags:
Tax (Utah) 6.25%
Tags (Virginia – I’m moving there in 7 weeks and want to register the car in VA) $30

EDIT: I tried doing some calculations using what you did above, but I'm not sure if this was right or if I could go lower still.

Est Invoice = $18,550 (assuming the car is in clean condition)
Dealer Prep = $500? (would this be lower with a 1-year old car?)
True Invoice = $19,550??
Taxes (6.25%) and Tags = 1191 + 30 = $1221
Low Ball = 17,711 T/T OTD??
Target Price = 19,050??
Good Price = ??
Too High = ??

Is this right? I'm a little unsure because the asking was only $19,900 to begin with over the phone. Advice? Thanks Mr. Black.

MSRP=$19990
Est Invoice= $15,700
Dealer Prep= $ 200est
Est Tru invoice=$15,900
tax/tags=415+49=$1023 (Tax=$993[6% of 15,900]+[Tags=$30])
Low ball offer= $14,923 (true invoice + tax/tags - 2K)
Target Price= $16,500 including tax/tags
Good Price=$16,500-18,700 OTD(Out The Door=including tax/tags, all in, no hidden fees)
Too High=any thing over $18,700 OTD

Here's my question for you:
Why buy used?
example:
used=60months 5.95%apr $21,665total of payments $361monthly payment(invoice=$18700)
This is an very good used car rate.
new= 60months 3.90%apr $21,876total of payments $365monthly payment(Invoice=$19846)
This rate is what Honda is offereing

mrblackpcs2 said: Why buy used?
example:
used=60months 5.95%apr $21,665total of payments $361monthly payment(invoice=$18700)
This is an very good used car rate.
new= 60months 3.90%apr $21,876total of payments $365monthly payment(Invoice=$19846)
This rate is what Honda is offereing


I plan to pay off the loan ASAP regardless. If this is the case, wouldn't it be cheaper to buy used since I will be paying less in total principal in the end? Is my thinking faulty? This is my first time buying a car so I'm not too familiar with all this.

mrblackpcs2 said: asianguy said:

mrblackpcs2 said:

Why buy used?
example:
used=60months 5.95%apr $21,665total of payments $361monthly payment(invoice=$18700)
This is an very good used car rate.
new= 60months 3.90%apr $21,876total of payments $365monthly payment(Invoice=$19846)
This rate is what Honda is offereing

I plan to pay off the loan ASAP regardless. If this is the case, wouldn't it be cheaper to buy used since I will be paying less in total principal in the end? Is my thinking faulty? This is my first time buying a car so I'm not too familiar with all this.

it would be almost the same price

Is this just from comparing the Invoice of 18700 to 19846 on the new Element? What if I was able to get closer to the target price of $16500? Would it be better to get used at that point?

KrazyKeyur said: i got a 2000 Kia Sephia LS (the good kind) 47000 miles for $4000 last may. good price?
Automatic
Power windows
Power doors
Power Locks
AC
CD Player
Rear Spoiler

now go back and read how to post

Hi -

Very nice of you to offer your help here! I'm hoping I post this in the proper format... I wanted to know what a good price would be for this car. There is also another one - with the same equipment/mileage, but it isn't certified and doesn't have a 'warranty'. How much would that deduct from the price?

Thanks!


2003 Pontiac Vibe
44,000 miles
zip=15332
color=black
Edmunds Link
Link to actual vehicle
Not seen in person yet.

Asking price $12995.

-Optional Equipment Copied from edmunds
National Base Price $9,447 $10,393 $11,969
Optional Equipment $1,135 $1,253 $1,613
Power Door Locks $65 $71 $92
Power Windows $74 $82 $106
Keyless Entry System $55 $61 $78
4-Wheel ABS $225 $249 $320
Cruise Control $58 $64 $82
4-Speed Automatic Transmission $270 $298 $384
Front Side Airbags $116 $128 $165
Power Moonroof $164 $181 $233
AM/FM/CD Changer Audio System $108 $119 $153
Color Adjustment
Black $-30 $-33 $-38
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code 15332 $-20 $-23 $-26
Mileage Adjustment
44,423 miles $-846 $-846 $-846
Condition Adjustment
Clean $0 $0 $0
Total $9,686 $10,744 $12,672
Certified Used Vehicle $13,452

-Black Book Report
Condition Trade-In Value Retail Value Description
Clean $10,775 $13,250 No body scratches, dents, rust or other signs of wear. Interior is perfect. Very low mileage. Very few vehicles qualify for Clean when a vehicle is traded in.
Average $10,060 $11,875 Body is very clean with only a few minor scratches, no dents and no rust. Interior is very clean with very little noticeable wear. Mileage less than 15,000 miles per year.
Rough $8,140 $10,575 Body is very rough with many scratches, dents, rust or hail damage. Interior is dirty and shows excessive wear. Mechanically needs work. High mileage.
Original MSRP in 2003 $16,365
The above values are based on the net value of +$300 for equipment and options, and an odometer reading of 44,423.

Local sales tax is 6% - not sure about the title fees - prob < $100.

Thanks!

handyguy said: In Calif, you can visit the dmv online, input a VIN number & get a smog history of the car free.

Best way to get a cheap price is to get a seller drunk. I knew a guy that did this once, got quite a price.

LMAO

lucidcolour said: Hello again. I walked on the other Subaru Forester, but am determined to find my car!!

I have not yet seen this car in person. It is listed as well maintained coming with a vehicle history report.

2003 Subaru Forester XS
Automatic
31713 miles
Zip code 12601

2003 Subaru Forester XS AWD 4dr Wagon (2.5L 4cyl 5M)
Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $13,901 $15,103 $17,105
Optional Equipment $360 $392 $493
4-Speed Automatic Transmission $360 $392 $493
Color Adjustment
Dark Blue $-13 $-15 $-17
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code 12601 $-30 $-33 $-37
Mileage Adjustment
31,713 miles $0 $0 $0
Condition Adjustment
Average $-1,759 $-1,875 $-2,062
Total $12,459 $13,572 $15,482


tax 8.375% - tags $50

Black Book
Condition Trade-In Value Retail Value Description
Clean $15,980 $18,750
Average $15,600 $17,925
Rough $13,230 $16,350
Original MSRP in 2003 $23,695


This car was listed at 15,599
They will sell for 14,499 +
349 doc fee
259 dealer fees
695 lo-jack (not sure if that is necessary)
250 (if i want them to register vehicle for me) + TAX

Dealer also says they can't PROMISE that there will not be other fees - any help is appreciated.

Is this a good price? I have been searching and searching and this is the lowest price I have found.

THANK YOU!!!!!

MSRP= $15,599
Sale Price= $14,499
Est Invoice= $13,230
Dealer Prep= $ 200est
Est Tru invoice= $13,430
tax/tags=415+49=$1175 (Tax=$1125[8.375% of 13,430]+[Tags=$50])
Low ball offer= $12,605(true invoice + tax/tags - 2K)
Target Price= $14500 including tax/tags
Good Price=$14,500-16,300 OTD(Out The Door=including tax/tags, all in, no hidden fees)
Too High=any thing over $16,500 OTD

Dealers offer= 14,500 + misc fees+ =17,227
As long as they included this "dealer" fees I would walk, those are just built in profit that dealers think they can charge to uninformed customers.

without those fees including tax you ar at $15674
So i would offer them $15,500 ALL IN, OTD, Take it or leave it

coachray said: 2003 Honda S2000
14,000 miles
33908
Color = Gray
I have not driven it, but have seen it. I asked for their best price over the phone and they told me $25,900

I got another internet quote for $24,492for a 2003 with 14,000 miles. Is $22,000 too much? Their final offer is 23,469 plus tax title. So, I guess they are out of the running.
Edmunds Link

2003 Honda S2000 2dr Roadster (2.0L 4cyl 6M)
Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $21,484 $22,866 $25,169
Optional Equipment $0 $0 $0
Color Adjustment
Gray $46 $49 $54
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code 33908 $-26 $-28 $-31
Mileage Adjustment
14,000 miles $747 $747 $747
Condition Adjustment
Clean $0 $0 $0
Total $22,251 $23,634 $25,939

Condition Trade-In Value Retail Value Description
Clean $22,985 $26,025
Average $21,745 $24,375
Rough $17,670 $21,525
Original MSRP in 2003 $32,600

8% tax plus $50 for tags.

What should I offer? What is the most I should pay?

Thanks in advance.

MSRP= $25,900
Est Invoice= $21,745
Dealer Prep= $ 500est(Includes certification)
Est Tru invoice= $22,245
tax/tags= $415+49=$1830 (Tax=$1780[8% of 22245]+[Tags=$50])
Low ball offer= $22,075(true invoice + tax/tags - 2K)
Target Price= $23,900 including tax/tags
Good Price=$23,900-26,000 OTD(Out The Door=including tax/tags, all in, no hidden fees)
Too High=any thing over $26,000 OTD

Hi Mrblack. I'm shopping for a '04 Lexus RX 330 AWD.
This dealer I'm talking to has this car in Dark Blue with 17,992 miles on it. His price is $33,795 + tax and tags. I haven't seen the car, just the pictures of it. The car supposedly has the Premium Plus package
What should I offer for it?

- 2004 Lexus RX 330 AWD
- 17,992 miles
- clean title and history
- zip 11762
- color: dark blue
- http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/lexus/rx330/100243307/options.html?tmvaction=vdpresult&tid=edmunds.u.options.utmv.vdpoption.1.Lexus*

- Edmunds pricing report: trade-in $30,840, private party $32,216, dealer $34,903
- Tax is 8.625% and I don't know how much tags are. What's included in tags and how much can it be?
- Asking $33,795

How much should I offer for a similar scenario without the navigation system?
Thanks for all your help!