Since Fatwallet currently presents a scattered collection of archived and active threads that discuss diamond purchase considerations, I decided to consolidate them into one. In the process, I hope to start a healthy discussion regarding the best way to get exactly what you want at reasonable prices.
While I have taken the liberty of posting my opinions below, they are anything but gospel. Please feel free to agree/disagree or introduce additional considerations into this discussion. Please also note that this is NOT intended to be yet another basic 4C's tutorial. Instead, I presume that most of the readers have already gone through the trouble of educating themselves on these very basic things and are just looking for a way to correctly apply this knowledge. For the more advanced tutorials, I would strongly encourage people to review information posted on Pricescope (www.pricescope.com), which is the preeminent diamond buying forum.
Purchase considerations Clarity As long as the stone in question is eye-clean, I do not see any particular reason to pay for higher clarity. Now, the "eye clean" status of the stone will certainly depend on its shape (it would be more difficult to see the same inclusion in a round brilliant stone than in, let's say, an emerald), size (it's easier to see inclusions in larger diamonds), cut (the better the cut, the more it will obscure the inclusions), location of the inclusion and the type of the inclusion (black inclusions are much easier to spot than white feathers). For round brilliants, quite a few SI2 stones, especially the ones with ideal cuts, are perfectly eye clean and, therefore, present a great value.
Now, some people just have a personal preference for a stone with higher clarity because they equate it with "purity" or just like seeing a very clean certificate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this personal preference as long as the person realizes that others will never be able to discern the higher clarity without magnification.
Color As for color, again, some shapes show color more than others (round brilliants typically show color the least). Further, the quality of the cut makes a huge difference here -- for round brilliants, an ideal cut (which I'll discuss below) will often make diamonds face up at least one color grade higher than its certificated grade.
Just like with clarity, some people have a personal preference for the highest color money can buy. Unlike high clarity, which cannot be discerned with a naked eye, however, most people can tell the difference between icy white D color and, let's say, J. Differences in color can also often be discerned by comparing stones next to each other, which is the reason that most people think of high color as more important than high clarity. Depending on your age, personal preference and visual acuity, many people think of H and I colored round brilliants as presenting the best value for the money. Some J colored round brilliants also face up very white and, therefore, are a great option.
Carat weight Carat is the most objective criteria of the 4C's. It is simply the weight of the stone, which does NOT equal size. For instance, a cutter can increase the carat size of the stone by leaving more weight on the bottom (called a "pavillion") -- such a stone would cause you to pay for weight you can't see and the extra weight can dramatically alter the angles of the stone, making it appear dull and lifeless.
Cut Cut is an extremely important variable since it can really make your stone sparkle or make it look very dull. Both GIA and AGS labs now offer "cut" ratings in their new certificates, although their definitions of differ somewhat. Pricescope offers a free Cut Advisor tool (http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp), which can also be extremely helpful in evaluating the quality of the cut.
People generally like to pay for things that they can see, which in the diamond context means that they want an eye-clean (SI clarity and up), white looking (H-I color and up) and very sparkly diamond. So, once the first two attributes (eye-clean and white) of the diamond are satisfied, cut becomes absolutely paramount since it can really make a diamond appear full of fire and sparkle.
The quality of the cut depends and is evaluated not just based on the basic measurements (depth %, table %) but also the crown and pavillion angles. When online retailers say "ideal" or "very good" cut in their online listings, they are often just guesstimating the cut based on the depth and the table. It is quite unwise to rely on such a guesstimate -- instead, you have to know what the diamond angles are (if they are not listed on the report, they can be obtained by a Sarin or an Ogi machine), so you can then be in a much better position to evaluate the performance of the diamond.
A current collection of FW threads that discuss these and others considerations can be found below:
Cut. For the reasons you mention, cut does have a huge impact on price. Go to Blue Nile, use the search tool there to set it at same carats, color, and clarity - you'll see the price can be hugely different depending on cut.
But like a lot of this stuff, it gets taken too far and becomes theoretical, just a statistic - whether you can actually see the difference you describe without a scope of some kind is another question. Just as some (like you) suggest not getting carried away about the statistics of clarity and going based on what you can see (plus a safety margin, maybe) ... you could make the same argument about cut, and similarly save some serious money.
Color. Cut has a big effect on color, but I'm not sure it's in the way you describe. I don't know that you can prove that an ideal cut actually makes that much difference, at least in a way that most people would perceive.
But the overall shape of the cut - round vs. emerald etc. - and the faceting will have a big impact on how people perceive color and clarity. For example, an emerald cut has a big clear area in the center that can show imperfections; so if that's what you want, be sure to pay a little more attention to clarity.
Also, it seems a consensus that stones set in yellow gold seem whiter than stones set in platinum, just by virtue being next to that color. Or to put it another way, you can probably worry a little less about how white the stone will look when you are planning on using a yellow gold setting.
Certifications. They don't all mean the same thing, or even mean anything; it's too much to summarize right now. Also, it's impossible to get a real one on a stone that is in a setting, and you often can't get good info on all 4 Cs for a stone that is in a setting.
The setting. Some people seem to end up putting these statistically perfect diamonds into some really ugly or poorly made settings. Don't lose sight of the bigger picture. The setting; what you can see about the stone iself; and the experience of buying it all is what will get perceived. The main point of knowing about the statistics is to know if you are getting a decent deal.
Pricescope. Pricescope is great on the details and has good info, but it's a little short on practical info - the people there are obsessed with diamonds and the statistics around them. It's become a hobby for most of the regulars, and a mania for some. And there are many pros in the forums there too - which is good, there's some good candid info - but you will get a certain slant from them too.
Practical advice. Take a look at some of the more practical, more FW-spirit advice in the threads as well. Collecting some of that would help, too. Take it or leave it, as it fits your situation: - You are not making an investment; some of the concern about the statistics would make more sense if you were, and they certainly want you to think you are for just that reason. But - this is consumption. If you are thinking in the back of your mind that you might sell it ... hold off on the wedding! If you are unlucky enough to end up selling it, you will be lucky to get more than 50% of what you pay for the diamond, and often nothing but scrap metal value for the setting. - Unless you clean the ring often, normal every day use will mean it has soap, etc on it most of the time. - For those among other reasons, some would argue that the goal is to spend as little as you can, within you and your SO's preferences.
Message edited by: buzzy on 2006-05-02 12:28:58 CDT
buzzy said:Cut. For the reasons you mention, cut does have a huge impact on price. Go to Blue Nile, use the search tool there to set it at same carats, color, and clarity - you'll see the price can be hugely different depending on cut.
But like a lot of this stuff, it gets taken too far and becomes theoretical, just a statistic - whether you can actually see the difference you describe without a scope of some kind is another question. Just as some (like you) suggest not getting carried away about the statistics of clarity and going based on what you can see (plus a safety margin, maybe) ... you could make the same argument about cut, and similarly save some serious money.I couldn't agree with you more. People should go to solid, reputable B&M retailers and compare various cuts to see what's important to them. Yes, most B&M jewelers have lighting set up in a way to add maximum brilliance to even the dullest stones, but the differences should be noticeable anyway. How much you should pay for these differences is up to you, however. Most people, including me, can see very little visual difference between branded signature cuts and ideal/excellent cuts that don't quite qualify for the "signature" series. Going with such a cut allows you to save serious money while still purchasing a great performer. On the other hand, I can also see a significant difference between most of the ideal cuts and the lesser cuts and try to stay away from the latter.
The reason that the cut does not qualify as "ideal" is also very important -- an overly deep cut, in addition to making the stone less sparkly, also makes it face up smaller (i.e., the stone looks smaller than its carat weight suggests it should be).
Color. Cut has a big effect on color, but I'm not sure it's in the way you describe. I don't know that you can prove that an ideal cut actually makes that much difference, at least in a way that most people would perceive.
But the overall shape of the cut - round vs. emerald etc. - and the faceting will have a big impact on how people perceive color and clarity. For example, an emerald cut has a big clear area in the center that can show imperfections.That's exactly right.
Also, it seems a consensus that stones set in yellow gold seem whiter than stones set in platinum, just by virtue being next to that color. Or to put it another way, you can probably worry a little less about how white the stone will look when you are planning on using a yellow gold setting.Agreed. Just keep in mind that diamonds tend to reflect colors around them, so that stones set in yellow gold may also appear more yellow than the ones set in white metals (platinum, white gold, palladium, etc...)
Pricescope. Pricescope is great on the details and has good info, but it's a little short on practical info - the people there are obsessed with diamonds and the statistics around them. It's become a hobby for most of the regulars. And there are many pros in the forums there too - which is good, ther's some good candid info - but you will get a certain slant from them too.Agreed. A lot of the Pricescope pros work with diamonds 24/7, so that their visual acuity is significantly higher than that of us, regular people.
The setting. Some people seem to end up putting these statistically perfect diamonds into some really ugly or poorly made settings. Don't lose sight of the bigger picture. The setting; what you can see about the stone iself; and the experience of buying it all is what will get perceived. The main point of knowing about the statistics is to know if you are getting a decent deal.Excellent point!
Practical advice. Take a look at some of the more practical, more FW-spirit advice in the threads as well. Collecting some of that would help, too. Take it or leave it, as it fits your situation: - You are not making an investment; some of the concern about the statistics would make more sense if you were, and they certainly want you to think you are for just that reason. But - this is consumption. If you are thinking in the back of your mind that you might sell it ... hold off on the wedding! If you are unlucky enough to end up selling it, you will be lucky to get more than 50% of what you pay for the diamond, and often nothing but scrap metal value for the setting. - Unless you clean the ring often, normal every day use will mean it has soap, etc on it most of the time. - For those among other reasons, some would argue that the goal is to spend as little as you can, within you and your SO's preferences.These are all fantastic points as well. Thank you very much for your contribution!
Message edited by: geo123 on 2006-05-02 13:18:36 CDT
buzzy said:Certifications. They don't all mean the same thing, or even mean anything; it's too much to summarize right now. Absolutely! The lab that issued the certification can affect the price and the value of the diamond a great deal! For instance, EGL and IGI certified diamonds will typically be significantly cheaper than GIA or AGS certified stones. This is typically because EGL (especially the Israeli EGL labs) and IGI labs tend to be softer and less consistent on their grading, so that a D colored EGL stone can be easily graded an E or F by GIA.
Diamond wholesalers maximize the value of their inventory by sending each diamond to the lab that will allow the particular diamond to be sold for the highest price -- while they are occasionally wrong, for the most part the best cut diamonds go to AGS (typically the strictest on the cut) and then to GIA (also quite strict and consistent).
More on certifications (imported from pricescope): the pedigree of the lab is not what makes one stone more or less lovely than another. The lab client was the dealer or the cutter and the reason they bought the report was to help them sell their stone better. The usual reason consumers insist on it to maximize the chances that they will get what they expect with their purchase. These are all fine reasons, but they are not entirely aligned. As I’m sure you know, all SI1’s are not the same.
As a rule, the tendency of customers to discriminate in favor of GIA and AGS grading over their various competitors has several major market affects:
1) Cutters and dealers who are trying to maximize their profits (which is all of them) will choose their labs strategically. The decision is not necessarily being made with the objective of providing you with the most accurate shopping information.
2) ‘Borderline’ stones, tend to go to the labs with more liberal grading policies (EGL and IGI).
3) Buyers are more tolerant of variations with the second tier labs. A ‘certificate’ that is off by a grade or 2 is much more acceptable from some labs than others. This can be useful to the dealers. Many will describe this as a feature because you get a report with a higher grade on it for the same or less money.
4) Most GIA and AGS grading reports come with a cut grade where most EGL reports do not. Dealers may not wish to be advertising this particular feature.
5) The ‘best’ stones, meaning the ones that the dealer hopes to sell for a premium price because of attributes other than color and clarity, tend to go to the higher status labs. Stones where the lab reported color and clarity are the primary sales characteristics tend to go to the less expensive and/or more lenient labs.
6) Cutters and dealers have access to many different markets and they are not all the same. Certain marketplaces are conducive to presenting stones as commodities while others involve more specialized marketing. The path of a stone from the mine to you was not chosen randomly and it wasn’t chosen by you. This choice is being made by some clever people who are working on razor thin profit margins that can vary considerably depending on the results. If they think they can make more money with that particular stone by sending it to a different lab and using a different retailer, there’s a pretty good chance that this is what they’ll do.
I have found a stone that I like that is SI2 and I in color. Is that acceptable? Will she be able to discern anything to the naked eye? Thanks in advance.
JohnAnthony1978 said:I have found a stone that I like that is SI2 and I in color. Is that acceptable? Will she be able to discern anything to the naked eye? Thanks in advance.Some SI2 stones are perfectly eye-clean and some are not. Is the stone at a B&M or at an online supplier? If it's the latter, ask the supplier to confirm the eye-clean status of the stone. Also, which lab graded the stone? This is critically important since, as I indicated in the above post, certain labs are known as more lax/inconsistent with their grading than others. Have you been able to check the cut of the stone (you'll need Sarin data to do this) -- do not go by the retailer's statements of cut quality.
Message edited by: geo123 on 2006-05-12 09:46:10 CDT
Thanks for replying. I am using a local store so it is not online. I am not sure who certified the diamond (it is certified). Any recs for good places of certification?
JohnAnthony1978 said:Thanks for replying. I am using a local store so it is not online. I am not sure who certified the diamond (it is certified). Any recs for good places of certification?Please see one of the above posts that briefly discusses certifications. I would be very wary of a stone that's not certified by GIA or AGS, not because a second tier certification would make the stone inferior in any way, but because these labs tend to be less consistent, so it'd be difficult to determine whether you're getting the right things in the stone at the right price.
What shape is the stone? What is its cut? As I've indicated above, the cut of the stone is quite important, since poorly cut stones will look dark and dull and well cut ones will be full of fire and sparkle. The cut of the stone also affects the price a great deal, so you need the cut characteristics (depending on the report, you may have the sarin data noted there) to determine the right price.
Message edited by: geo123 on 2006-05-12 11:52:19 CDT
JohnAnthony1978 said:Thanks for replying. I am using a local store so it is not online. I am not sure who certified the diamond (it is certified). Any recs for good places of certification?
i bought all 3 rings from dbof. no tax. discount for cash. preview of diamond. 150 emails and 30 phones and never got mad. They sponsor diamondtalk.com the best diamond forum last time i checked.
i bought all 3 rings from dbof. no tax. discount for cash. preview of diamond. 150 emails and 30 phones and never got mad. They sponsor diamondtalk.com the best diamond forum last time i checked.
lastly your eye is the best judge of many things.
http://www.isee2.com/I checked out diamondtalk.com and noticed that it is ANYTHING but unbiased -- while it has a lot of good information, the only "experts" on the forum are the small jewelers (they are also the ones who sponsor the forum -- just look at the forum ads) who undoubtedly use it as a way to cheaply get their name out there and in the process to bash the big retailers. There is nothing wrong with this strategy as long as people realize that a number of companies are mentioned on diamondtalk not because the companies are so great but because their reps/owners are there to promote themselves.
Not surprisingly, the prices and selection at these small companies cannot even come close to that of the big boys -- Diamond.com (especially after its Cash Back and additional promotions shown on their FW merchant page), WhiteFlash, Blue Nile (which also tends to be on the slightly expensive side), James Allen, etc...
Message edited by: geo123 on 2006-05-12 13:39:10 CDT
To underscore what I said above, I just noticed that Diamond Brokers of Florida is using Diamondtalk.com to advertise this not particularly well cut round (http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/t67752-133si2hroundbrilliant.html), 1.33ct, SI2, H, GIA's "very good" cut, a subpar 3.2 on the HCA (http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp) for $6,998! This is about $900 higher than this IDEAL cut, AGS 000, 1.30ct, SI2, H, fantastic 1.2 on the HCA (the cut is almost as good as it gets on this) for $6,032 on Pricescope!
Message edited by: geo123 on 2006-05-12 13:26:12 CDT
Yeah, I haven't recommended DiamondTalk since it seems to highlight small vendors and bans discussion about other online retailers. I have seen similar complaints about Pricescope but it didn't appear to be anywhere near as bad. In general I found more helpful information on PriceScope than DiamondTalk.
Number 1 rule I learned: All the stats are just a guideline...you have to see the stone to know if you got the right one.
Rigor, the HCA disclaimers SPECIFICALLY caution people against buying diamonds based just on an HCA score. What HCA scores do for you, however, is allow you to weed out dogs and underperforming diamonds. By the way, the new AGS system (reports issued after June, 2005), use light performance factors including software like DiamCalc, and the ASET scope, which is like a multi colored Ideal-Scope. Proportions are now used only as a guide to manufacturers and not the basis of grading. Stones must not breach certain 'bad proportions' and finish rules outlined by AGS. AGS gets it information from an actual 3D scan of each diamond, so it tends to be EXTREMELY accurate.
Based on the Diamond Brokers of Florida offering above, I'd really like to hear an explanation/justification for the higher price of their stone versus the AGS stone above. I believe that the real explanation is just that they offer good service and pass on the costs to you -- it just appears that you can get the same or better service from other retailers at a much lower price.
Message edited by: geo123 on 2006-06-01 09:16:08 CDT
JohnAnthony1978 said:Thank you for all the replies and good advice. In answer to the cut question it is a princess cut if that helps.John, "princess" is the shape of the diamond. The diamond's cut refers to its proportions (for princess cut, table %, crown height %, girdle thickness, total depth, length: width ratios), which can usually be found on the certificate. Speaking of the certificate, which lab certified the stone (please see our posts above that discuss various labs)?
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