I logged in to my paypal today to find that five automated payments sent to me have been reduced from a new PayPal fee. They've made a policy change where all services and small sales from personal accounts will be converted to a commercial transaction. I've been making intervals of $5 every day with no fees, and now $0.45 is being taken from each transaction. There was no notification of this policy change until I checked the payment details on PayPal. PayPal has changed their main interface and removed the 'Fees' column, but only shows our Gross amount on home page. You don't know how much the fees actually charge you until you view the transaction details, so there's your heads up. No notification of policy change whatsoever, no columns to show fees and net amount on account overview page. No notification of our Net Amount or Fees on the emails. Feels like they are trying to scam us..
(1) Effective June 3, 2009 you may not use PayPal service for activities that “involve the sales of products or services identified by government agencies to have a high likelihood of being fraudulent”. Not sure what that means? Neither am I and neither is the PayPal representative I spoke with today. PayPal informed me that they cannot answer any questions about policy updates unless they are submitted by email. So, if you want some details you will have to email PayPal. (2) Personal PayPal accounts, where all payments except those funded by credit card, are free for the receiver. However, beginning June 3, 2009, personal PayPal accounts will no longer going to be available for use by anyone who sales goods or services no matter the amount. If you sell a $1 item then you must convert your personal PayPal account to a commercial account and pay fees on all transactions no matter the funding source used. This is a major change and many very small or part-time online sellers won’t see this one coming.
tinkleondabeach said: I offer personal services like a subscription to my forum : Not that I'm defending PayPal, but that sounds like commercial rather than personal use.
chuckster said: Not that I'm defending PayPal, but that sounds like commercial rather than personal use.
I agree. The OP is basically clueless. The OP neglected to keep up with pending PayPal policy changes. Exactly how is that PayPal's fault? While most here will agree PayPal's fees and policies are not exactly fair they are ALWAYS clearly posted on PayPal's site and any pending PayPal policy changes are ALWAYS posted with adequate notice before they go into effect. For example despite the OP's FALSE statments PayPal DID post this upcomming change along with a DETAILED fee structure of the new fees WAY back in March with a effective date of 6/3. Just becuase the OP neglected to familiarize with upcoming PayPal change does not make it scam. Is the new policy change fair? Maybe not? Is it a scam Absolutely not! To my knowledge PayPal does not have a fairness policy. However, one thing I do know is that every PayPal account has a link to upcoming Paypal policy updates right on the My Account Overview page. In addition, PayPal offers a notification preference option in your profile settings that allows you to select if you want to receive emails concerning ALL Policy Change Notices.
Beginning June 3, 2009 PayPal user agreement is being amended as follows:
1. Section 4.2 of the user agreement will read as follows:
“4.2 Receiving Payments for Commercial Transactions and Personal Transactions. a. Fees depend on whether you are making a commercial transaction or a personal transaction. A commercial transaction involves buying and selling goods or services, and payments received when you send a “request money” using PayPal. A personal transaction involves sending money to and receiving money from friends and family without making a purchase.
b. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a personal payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept personal payments.”
2. Section 8 of the user agreement will read as follows:
8. Fees. All fees are in U.S. Dollars unless otherwise stated.
Fees depend on whether you are making a commercial transaction or a personal transaction. A commercial transaction involves buying and selling goods or services, and payments received when you send a “request money” using PayPal. A personal transaction involves sending money to and receiving money from friends and family without making a purchase.
Personal Transactions. Fees depend on the payment source that the sender selects. The amount of the fee will be shown at the time the payment is sent. The Fee is paid by either the sender or the recipient. The sender decides who pays
Domestic Personal Transactions - U.S. sender and recipient.
Payment Fully Funded by PayPal Balance or Bank Payment Fully or Partially Funded by PayPal Credit, Debit Card, or Credit Card Sending / Receiving Free 2.9% + Fixed Fee (see below)
International Personal Transactions - The sender or recipient is outside the U.S.
Payment fully funded by PayPal Balance or Bank Payment fully or partially funded by PayPal Credit, Debit Card, or Credit Card Sending / Receiving This fee is based on the country of the recipient.
Recipient’s Country:
Australia 1%
Canada 1%
China 0%
Germany 2%
Hong Kong 0%
Singapore 0%
Taiwan 0%
U.S 1%
Elsewhere 0.5% This fee is based on the country of the recipient.
Recipient’s Country:
Australia 3.4% + Fixed Fee (see below)
Canada 3.9% + Fixed Fee
China 0.0% + Fixed Fee
Germany 3.9% + Fixed Fee
Hong Kong 3.4% + Fixed Fee
Singapore 3.4% + Fixed Fee
Taiwan 3.4% + Fixed Fee
U.S. 3.9% + Fixed Fee
Elsewhere 3.9% + Fixed Fee
Commercial Transactions
Domestic - Commercial Transactions - U.S. sender and recipient
Sending (Buying) Free Receiving (Selling) Standard rate: 2.9% + Fixed Fee (see below)
Merchant rate (requires one-time application, qualifying monthly sales volume, and account in good standing)
curtisekarr said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: Why are you having $5 daily payments send to you if you are a personal use accountholder?
tinkleondabeach said: I offer personal services like a subscription to my forum :
What forum is this? and why should I pay you $5 to join? I don't think I'm allowed to advertise, but users earn back way more than their $5/mo It's like a freebie/sweesptakes botting site
What does google checkout charge for the same service?
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 5, 2009 @ 2:32p
tinkleondabeach said: I don't think I'm allowed to advertise, but users earn back way more than their $5/mo It's like a freebie/sweesptakes botting siteYou help people screw companies, and you got screwed by a company. Seems fair to me.
jayK said: tinkleondabeach said: I don't think I'm allowed to advertise, but users earn back way more than their $5/mo It's like a freebie/sweesptakes botting siteYou help people screw companies, and you got screwed by a company. Seems fair to me. +1!
I noticed this as well. My problem is that I want to maintain a personal account and a business account. Paypal allows you to have one of each type but fees are either applied to the whole account or none. I pay the fee on the business account for occasional eBay sales and then transfer the money to my personal account for withdrawal. I can still receive payments from friends though without fee. With the change, I noticed that I was paying Paypal for the privilege of transferring money between two accounts that I own! I refunded the payment and then resent using a different type. I was previously selecting goods just in case I typed in the wrong destination email address so I could contest it if I made a mistake but clearly I won't be doing that anymore.
It's kind of like my old dumb brunette girlfriend back in College. I explained to her the terms of credit (nothing like a dumb girlfriend to reinforce your own conviction with regard to credit - much to her credit), and explained to her that she's the one borrowing the money and therefore it is the borrowers responsibility to understand the terms and return the money in due course as agreed upon. Granted, the credit card was pushed and of course, being dumb, she figured that by filling out the information in the little squares, she was entitled to free money.
That's not how it works, I explained. When you borrow money, it isn't like calling your Mom to get sprung out of jail for wreaking havoc and not paying back your Mom.
Likewise, if you use a financial service, the onus is on the user of the financial service to know what they're using and to what advantage they can use it. Sure, Paypal's a bit sneaky, always changing their terms of service, and I agree that hiding the fees into a lump sum is even more sneaky, it's still a service you do not have to use at all and choosing to do use it, you should jump in with both eyes wide open.
Don't be like my dumb girlfriend. Ex-girlfriend, that is.
Send it as a gift to yourself, My folks wanted me buy a gift for my daughters Bday. The store would not exept a virtual credit card. The sent me the funds got hit with a fee, refunded it they resent as a gift. no fee
jolma
Senior Member
posted: Jun. 13, 2009 @ 12:41p
Paypal is not just a service that you can voluntarily choose from many options and should then compare which is preferable to use. Paypal is a MONOPOLY. It is effectively the only way to get paid on eBay, and other than having a full credit card processing option is the only method of accepting payment on a website that doesn't look suspicious to most buyers. Try requiring a non-credit card, non-paypal payment method on a website, you'll get flooded with people refusing to buy and each of those people reflects many more people who you are losing as customers. Since they are a monopoly, Paypal is legally and morally required not to act like the big jerks that they are.
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 13, 2009 @ 12:58p
jolma said: Since they are a monopoly, Paypal is legally and morally required not to act like the big jerks that they are.No court would find that Paypal is a monopoly given the market consisting of "methods of payment on eBay that don't look suspicious to buyers", and as such they have no legal requirement not to "act like big jerks". If you don't like it, don't use eBay.
jayK said: jolma said: Since they are a monopoly, Paypal is legally and morally required not to act like the big jerks that they are.No court would find that Paypal is a monopoly given the market consisting of "methods of payment on eBay that don't look suspicious to buyers", and as such they have no legal requirement not to "act like big jerks". If you don't like it, don't use eBay.
JayK, that was a useless comment. Jolma was right. Paypal gets away with way too much and is only allowed to because they are really the only option to continue to do business on eBay nowadays.
And to me, this is yet another reason to stay away from eBay.
auroa724
Member
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 1:32a
Eh, I feel we've gotten away long enough with the personal accounts. It was just a matter of time before they clamped down on it. I do agree that the lack of notification and transparency is pretty shameful, but that's business.
Xane
Member
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 2:12a
I hate eBay and hate PayPal. Use only when you absolutely have to.
jmccorm
New Member
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 4:40a
I started to increase my PayPal use over the past year because I liked the buyer protection part of it. Or, at least, that's what I thought. I had a serious dispute with a vendor where the vendor was very clearly in the wrong. Paypal says, "talk it out." After that goes nowhere, they say (and only at the tail end of the process), "since this wasn't an eBay item, we cannot help you any further."
That's my own story. But other people (such as the OP) are coming up with story after story of how PayPal has set their expectations one way, and delivered something different. Or shifted the sands below people's feet. I should have listened to all of the complaints from others, but I was always, "Oh, this doesn't affect me. I'm not doing _X_ and I know that if I do, I just need to do it different than they did."
Well now, for me, doing business with this company is a liability. Not only has PayPal not earned my business, they've earned a quarantine due to their unpredictable nature (without hiring a legal team to track updates and interpret contract language into real-world scenarios).
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 5:58a
enforcer2133 said: jayK said: jolma said: Since they are a monopoly, Paypal is legally and morally required not to act like the big jerks that they are.No court would find that Paypal is a monopoly given the market consisting of "methods of payment on eBay that don't look suspicious to buyers", and as such they have no legal requirement not to "act like big jerks". If you don't like it, don't use eBay.
JayK, that was a useless comment. Jolma was right. Paypal gets away with way too much and is only allowed to because they are really the only option to continue to do business on eBay nowadays.Jolma was only half right. Paypal has a moral responsibility to not act like jerks, but he is dead wrong that they would be legally considered a monopoly. You can give me all the red you want, but that won't change the facts.
The more worrying issue is that Paypal is essentially a bank, but it is not subject to the same oversight and regulation banks are. Look, I agree that Paypal is a crappy company, but it is certainly possible to run a successful small business without using them, even on eBay (just accept credit cards with your own merchant account).
natk
Member
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 7:26a
tinkleondabeach said: I offer personal services like a subscription to my forum :
And all you need to do is post this information to 300 newsgroups moving OP's name up one on the list and you too will make $64,000. The Pay Pal fees now move this from a hot deal to only luke warm tho.
TowHead said: It's kind of like my old dumb brunette girlfriend back in College. I explained to her the terms of credit (nothing like a dumb girlfriend to reinforce your own conviction with regard to credit - much to her credit), and explained to her that she's the one borrowing the money and therefore it is the borrowers responsibility to understand the terms and return the money in due course as agreed upon. Granted, the credit card was pushed and of course, being dumb, she figured that by filling out the information in the little squares, she was entitled to free money.
That's not how it works, I explained. When you borrow money, it isn't like calling your Mom to get sprung out of jail for wreaking havoc and not paying back your Mom.
Likewise, if you use a financial service, the onus is on the user of the financial service to know what they're using and to what advantage they can use it. Sure, Paypal's a bit sneaky, always changing their terms of service, and I agree that hiding the fees into a lump sum is even more sneaky, it's still a service you do not have to use at all and choosing to do use it, you should jump in with both eyes wide open.
Don't be like my dumb girlfriend. Ex-girlfriend, that is.
since eBay is a monopoly (yes you can sell certain items like books, cds, dvds, ect on fixed price sites like Amazon, ABE, ect, many items, and unique items you can't) and eBay, which owns Paypal now forces you to receive payments ONLY BY PAYPAL for almost everything sold on eBay, people who may only sell a couple of items now and then to get rid of them, for example, are forced to either use Paypal, or thrown their salable crap in the garbage. Not everybody has a garage, yard, or sidewalk of their own to have a garage sale. For many people eBay is their only opportunity to have a garage sale, just as for others a front lawn or garage is their forum. As you say people have a choice to use paypal, people who have a garage sale are required to collect and pay sales tax on all sales, plus income tax on the appreciated value of what they sold over what they paid for it. what is your opinion of people who choose to have garage sales and not pay taxes to the monopoly government. eBay and Paypal are monopoly's you can choose whether to use or not but being the only choice in town, they are taking full advantage of their monopoly status with ever changing rules to their financial benefit.
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 11:49a
cows123 said: eBay, which owns Paypal now forces you to receive payments ONLY BY PAYPAL for almost everything sold on eBayReally? You can no longer accept credit card payments through your own merchant account?
people who may only sell a couple of items now and then to get rid of them, for example, are forced to either use Paypal, or thrown their salable crap in the garbage. Not everybody has a garage, yard, or sidewalk of their own to have a garage sale. For many people eBay is their only opportunity to have a garage sale, just as for others a front lawn or garage is their forum.Craigslist has always worked much better than eBay for local "garage sale" type transactions.
people who have a garage sale are required to collect and pay sales tax on all sales, plus income tax on the appreciated value of what they sold over what they paid for it.While it's true that you owe income tax if you sell the item for a profit, how often does that happen at garage sales? You're dead wrong about paying sales tax, since sales tax for items sold at a garage sale has already been paid at the time of original purchase.
jayK said: You're dead wrong about paying sales tax, since sales tax for items sold at a garage sale has already been paid at the time of original purchase.Wrong. In most states you have to pay sales tax on the transaction. Doesn't matter if the item is new, used, or how many times it has been sold.
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 14, 2009 @ 5:45p
michaelkenyon said: jayK said: You're dead wrong about paying sales tax, since sales tax for items sold at a garage sale has already been paid at the time of original purchase.Wrong. In most states you have to pay sales tax on the transaction. Doesn't matter if the item is new, used, or how many times it has been sold.Please provide a link to a single state that requires you to collect sales tax if you run a garage sale.
The only case in which you would be required to collect sales tax at a garage sale is if you bought goods for the sole purpose of reselling them at your garage sale, since that constitutes a retailing business. But even in that case, you would be able to apply for a seller's permit that would enable you to buy those goods from your source without paying sales tax.
jolma said: Paypal is not just a service that you can voluntarily choose from many options and should then compare which is preferable to use. Paypal is a MONOPOLY. It is effectively the only way to get paid on eBay, and other than having a full credit card processing option is the only method of accepting payment on a website that doesn't look suspicious to most buyers. Try requiring a non-credit card, non-paypal payment method on a website, you'll get flooded with people refusing to buy and each of those people reflects many more people who you are losing as customers. Since they are a monopoly, Paypal is legally and morally required not to act like the big jerks that they are.
Whoops. I didn't notice your comment when I basically repeated it later. BUT...since I didn't see, and therefore didn't plagiarize it, and definitely agree with it, I'll leave it up, but you get credit for posting it first.
I signed up for Revolution Money Exchange in February 2008. They are a totally free money transfer service. The only way we can pry ourselves away from the "monopoly" of PayPal is if there are enough users on an alternative site to make it useful. Check it out, I never used it, but I did get a $25 bonus for opening an account. They had $25 referral bonuses back then, but no more. Too bad! www.revolutionmoneyexchange.com
Moonsea said: I signed up for Revolution Money Exchange in February 2008. They are a totally free money transfer service.
that's all well and good but even the old diner's club had better acceptance with merchants than revolution money exchange. i just transferred the $25 bonus they paid me to an account where i can actually spend the money.
zjts
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 26, 2009 @ 4:24p
any toll free phone # for paypal?
MrRetro
Senior Member
posted: Jul. 1, 2009 @ 1:13p
I don't like the way this was handled. It's a PERSONAL account, and up until the change early this month, non credit card payments of any kind were not subject to fees. They changed their definition of personal to reflect the kind of transaction not just the type of account. Along with that, the default choice for sending money is now "Purchase", which is classified as a chargeable amount. If when you send money you click on the "Personal" tab, AND the payment is made from a bank or balance transfer, there should not be a fee. But I think this was done pretty sneaky, as this is a pretty huge change and should have been broadcast more readily than it was.
jayK said: michaelkenyon said: jayK said: You're dead wrong about paying sales tax, since sales tax for items sold at a garage sale has already been paid at the time of original purchase.Wrong. In most states you have to pay sales tax on the transaction. Doesn't matter if the item is new, used, or how many times it has been sold.Please provide a link to a single state that requires you to collect sales tax if you run a garage sale.
The only case in which you would be required to collect sales tax at a garage sale is if you bought goods for the sole purpose of reselling them at your garage sale, since that constitutes a retailing business. But even in that case, you would be able to apply for a seller's permit that would enable you to buy those goods from your source without paying sales tax. link
Sales tax would be required if more than two garage sales are conducted per year.
My city also requires anyone who conducts more than two garage sales in a year to obtain a business license, which will costing around $250.
Skipping 6 Messages...
SlowLoris
Happy Member
posted: Sep. 27, 2009 @ 12:44p
Wow, I did not know about this change. I have personal account only so it will affect me. Thanks OP!
Sometimes I collect money via paypal for classroom funds, etc. For that purpose, those payments should be stated as personal(payment owed or other), otherwise the fee will be deducted?
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