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Modding Principles Archived From: FatWallet

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There have been questions raised regarding what guidelines Mods use when dealing with situations in the forums. In another discussion I said we were going to post our “Modding Principles” for people to see. The following is a nearly completed list. They apply to all of our forums as a whole.

A couple of things I should note is that these are “principles” rather than “rules” or “policy.” Rules and policies fall into the black/white category of decision-making. Sometimes they are appropriate. But oftentimes our forums operate in the gray areas of life. That means judgment calls. When it’s time for such a call, we have to ask ourselves how “we” handle things as a team. That’s what the principles are for. They are our guide, yet they allow room for individual evaluation and action.

We ask that those interested read what we offer and respond. This document is listed as the “Preliminary Version” because we would like to hear your thoughts, questions, and concerns regarding them. Also, there are a couple that still need to be added. Eventually, we will have a “finished” version that will appear as a sticky for reference.

So, the following is a nearly completed list. They apply to all of our forums as a whole. Please reply and share your reflections if so inclined. Such feedback will help us to fill in the gaps and bring clarification to the “moddy” waters.


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Hands Off
We want FatWallet to be a community of users for and by the users. That means allowing users to use their voices as they deem appropriate. Therefore, we try not to intervene in conversations.

However, moderators are here for a reason. Sometimes, conversations can go awry. At that point, it is our task to prevent the conversation from degenerating into a free-for-all and bring it back into focus. Here’s our basic pattern for engaging such circumstances:

1. Alert: While moderators are always patrolling the forums, many times they will be notified to individual issues by concerned users. After reading the user's remarks, the moderators will decide whether to intervene. If action is deemed necessary, the following steps might be taken:
2. Warning: A reply is posted to call the topic back into focus on the OP
3. Moderation: All replies must go to a moderator for review before being allowed in the thread.
4. Lock: No more posts are allowed.
5. Delete: Into the trash can it goes.

We usually use this pattern, but sometimes things escalate fast enough that we need to adjust the process.

Certain triggers can initiate such an intervention.

Flaming: It is one thing to voice one’s opinion, but it doesn’t have to happen with aggressive language toward another user. We recognize that sometimes our users can get a bit snarky; that’s fine. But there is a line. When people cross it, our job is to nudge them back in bounds.

Offensive Content: Oftentimes we forget that when we post in forums amidst a bunch of screennames that we are really entering into people’s lives through language. Those people are real people, with real flesh and blood, and real feelings. Yes, sometimes it is good for people to grow some thicker skin. But oftentimes comments are made that are offensive regardless of how resilient one is emotionally. Those comments are unacceptable. Such things as racial and religious slurs (among others) will not be tolerated. We are trying to build a community out of a diverse population. Please keep in mind the sensibilities of others when posting.

Off Topic: We want our threads to be useable. When people drop in an abundance of off topic comments, it clutters the threads and makes them hard to follow. In such cases, we will often just delete the diverging post.


Off Topic Forum
Off Topic is a special forum. This is your place to say pretty much whatever you want. Our hands off approach is extended here; we will rarely interrupt the flow. (Not that we won’t ever do it; we just won’t do it often.)


Spam
Anyone who wants to advertise with us is welcome to send us a note, and we will consider the possibility of a partnership. Anyone outside of such a relationship with us who posts something that is of benefit to that user is doing something very, very bad. It’s called spam. We hate spam.

Our community exists for the benefit of the community. Whenever a citizen posts spam, then the focus of the community’s benefit is transferred to the individual. This compromises our sense of communal integrity. We like our integrity. We like our community. Thus, we take our communal integrity very seriously.

That being said, we try not to delete a post as spam unless we have good reason to. Some reasons are as follows:

• Direct connection with business
• Referral codes
• Highly suspicious sites
• Enough circumstantial evidence

There are times when users alert us to posts that in our guts seems like spam, but we just don’t see enough evidence to merit removing the post. In such cases we will drop in a warning underneath the OP that identifies the post as suspicious and urging caution.


Inappropriate Language
We have a pretty lax policy on the kind of language people can use in our forums. Those words that we do not want to see are placed on a ban list. We recognize that not all people will agree with where we have drawn the line. Some will think us too strict; others, too lenient. If ever language is used that is questionable, users are welcome to send in a mod alert, and we will look at the instance.


Alts
No alts. Period. Alts do not serve a productive purpose. People use them for hiding. They are used to skew voting, either negatively or positively. Alts make user tracking difficult. Again, I say, no alts. Period.


Voting
We want our users to have a solid voice in our forums. One of the ways we do this is by allowing people to vote. Voting is a privilege; not a right.

Voting is multipurpose and subjective. People may vote on a post because they do or do not like the content, the wording, the idea, or any other reason. There are a great many reasons behind responsible voting. As long as users continue to vote responsibly, we try not to interfere. When we identify an irresponsible abuse of the system, however, we will attend the matter appropriately.

Voting abuse comes in two forms: vote stalking a user and burying deals to hide them. If the moderation team determines an extreme problem with a user's voting, then we will do our best to communicate it by PM. If it happens repeatedly, then voting abilities will be removed.

Voting a “live” deal “dead” is a form of burying a deal. If the OP information on a deal matches the listed price on the link, it is considered to be “live.” In the case of price mistakes, we never know for sure that a merchant will not honor the listed price; therefore we consider the deal to be live until the site information changes.


Politics and Religion
At FatWallet, we are trying to create a mutually beneficial community strengthened through discussion and participation. To facilitate this kind of community, we need to keep in mind that certain topics often bring bitter feelings and division. Therefore, we do not allow discussion of political or religious agendas. We will delete such material.


Political and Religious Materials
Although we do not allow political and religious discussion, we do allow threads to be started in Free Stuff that contain political and religious deals (for example, free bumperstickers), provided that they are legitimate deals. Yet, if we ever have reason to believe that a citizen may be using our forums to further a personal political or religious agenda, we will require the user to cease posting of any similar material.

At one point, we also allowed political Hot Deals. However, after polling the community, we discovered that this was contrary to community wishes. Therefore, we no longer allow political deals to appear in our Hot Deals forum.


References and Links to Competing Deal Sites
We do not have any problems with other deal sites. We respect them and the way they contribute to the empowerment of consumers. Although they are our competitors, they are also by default our partners in our mission.

If someone rips a deal from another deal site, we encourage giving credit. Oftentimes, this will look like “ripped from SD” or “thanks to SuperMojo at SlickDeals.” We have no problem with identifying sites by name.

Issues arise when people use our forums to redirect people to deals at other sites. For example:

“Hey, there’s a great deal everyone should see over at SlickDeals: LINK! (insert active link).”

That tells our community nothing. Such a post would be removed.

Here’s an example of something that would be allowed to stay:

“ElectronicsHeaven has the SuperTeck X-30K HD Holo-TV for 30% off, which brings the price to $400,000 (ships free). There is a coupon posted at SlickDeals HERE (insert active link). Also, they are discussing it here: http://www…. .com. (insert URL, but not direct link). LINK (insert active link) to product.”

Note that all of the information for the deal is presented. Because the link is to a coupon, it is fine. Using a URL to refer to a discussion in their forums is fine, as long as it isn’t a direct link and all the deal information is posted on our site.


Rehab
People can (and do) overreact. Something is said by an anonymous screenname that strikes a sore spot. Emotions flair. Nastiness ensues. It happens.

One solutions is to get rid of all the people who do this. But then, where would we be? Since it happens to everyone from time to time, we would have no people. No people = No fun. Yes, people can be a pain in the forums, but they are also the source of fun. Therefore, we try not to eject people from our forums permanently.

Instead, we believe it is better to help those who continually cross the line to learn how to live within the bounds of the community. One way we deal with this is through a little bit of coaching. We might put a note in the thread reminding everyone of our expectations. Or, we might contact a user via our PM system and inform them of our concerns. Through conversation, we can make suggestions on how the user might improve her or his behavior.

In more drastic situations we will give “timeouts.” These timeouts can last anywhere from three days to whatever we feel is appropriate. The idea is to give the user time to step away from the computer and cool down for a while. A few days for clearing one’s head can be a good thing. Then, before reentering, the user needs to identify to us the errant behavior and assure us that it will not happen again.

In extreme situations, there is always the possibility of a permanent ban. This is unfortunate. However, we need to the overall wellbeing of the community to remain our priority. When a user proves to be viral and is not willing to work with us in the rehabilitation process, then the community is simply better off without such a presence. We never eject users lightly.


Gossiping
It is not uncommon for users to report another user, and then ask us to fill them in on what happened. Don’t hold your breath; we’re not going to do it. There are privacy issues involved. We will let users know that we will investigate a matter, but that’s about it. We’re not blowing people off; we’re respecting boundaries to protect those involved.


Protect the Newbies
One of the complaints about our site is how we treat the newbies. The frustrations with spammers and trolls seems to find release in the direction of anyone new who posts something suspicious. This is not good.

We ask that all users try to treat newbies with respect. This is not to say don’t be suspicious. Rather, contact us to look into questionable posts, but try to be nice and inviting. Remember, there is always the possibility that the user is new to the forums environment and might need time to acclimate to the culture.

From time to time, we may need to intervene in threads to remind users that we are trying to be a welcoming community. If you see us do that, please turn the conversational tone into something that is respectful and courteous.


Review of Decisions
We recognize that mistakes happen on our end. Sometimes it’s good to have a decision reviewed. If our citizens feel that an error has been made, the best way to request a decision review is to send in a support ticket. In the ticket, offer a description of the incident and any relevant information regarding it. Another set of eyes will then examine the situation and consider the decision.

Quick Summary is created and edited by users like you... Add FAQ's, Links and other Relevant Information by clicking the edit button in the lower right hand corner of this message.

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Protect the Newbies
One of the complaints about our site is how we treat the newbies. The frustrations with spammers and trolls seems to find release in the direction of anyone new who posts something suspicious. This is not good.

We ask that all users try to treat newbies with respect. This is not to say don’t be suspicious. Rather, contact us to look into questionable posts, but try to be nice and inviting. Remember, there is always the possibility that the user is new to the forums environment and might need time to acclimate to the culture.

From time to time, we may need to intervene in threads to remind users that we are trying to be a welcoming community. If you see us do that, please turn the conversational tone into something that is respectful and courteous.

How about protect the forums from obvious shitty trolls? You know what I'm talking about.

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shopliftinginva said:Protect the Newbies
One of the complaints about our site is how we treat the newbies. The frustrations with spammers and trolls seems to find release in the direction of anyone new who posts something suspicious. This is not good.

We ask that all users try to treat newbies with respect. This is not to say don’t be suspicious. Rather, contact us to look into questionable posts, but try to be nice and inviting. Remember, there is always the possibility that the user is new to the forums environment and might need time to acclimate to the culture.

From time to time, we may need to intervene in threads to remind users that we are trying to be a welcoming community. If you see us do that, please turn the conversational tone into something that is respectful and courteous.


How about protect the forums from obvious shitty trolls? You know what I'm talking about.

That's actually one of the things that have yet to be added.

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VBMcGB said: That's actually one of the things that have yet to be added. GREEN for you. I'll sign into my alt account and give you more if you actually DO something about it.

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Political and Religious Materials

I say do not allow this either. How do you define "legit"? How about a free sticker that says "XXXX sucks balls"?


slv said:How about protect the forums from obvious shitty trolls? Well, this guy for example:

Link

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If you are so concerned about the way "newbies" are treated on the site, why not implement a voting system that is newbie friendly? All too often, "newbies" are drowned in a sea of red in their first few posts -- usually for posting in the wrong forum, posting a repost, posting a really idiotic post, or just because they are new, and, apparently as it's been pointed out to many OT'ers, the old timers hate newbies.

Why not disable voting on newbies' first 5 or 10 posts? That should give them confidence to post without experiencing massive amounts of red. Perhaps if you wanted it could keep a tally of votes but just would not show as a color bar. Imagine how much more likely they would be to recommend FW to their friends if they weren't hit with a wall of red their first few posts?

And when a post is locked because of repost, mod lock or other action, why not disable the voting on that thread? It makes no sense when a repost is made (usually because of the sucko FW search feature) that the sea of red continues. If you truly want to make "newbies" feel the love, step up to the plate and make them feel welcome. As it stands now, it's not the nasty comments they see first, it's the sea of red that slaps them in the face because they made a mistake. Check any repost locked thread in the Free Forum and it's like a feeding frenzy - they pounce on reposts like chum in the shark infested water. That certainly doesn't make any newbie want to try to participate in the forum.


Before implementing a policy of protecting the newbies through special moderation (coddling), perhaps you should step back and look at the forest. Newbies absolutely deserve respect as do all members. However, newbies also should respect the rules of the forum as should all members. Using the above techniques to help integrate them into the fora might be better than coddling because coddling often produces spoiled brats and resentful older siblings.

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Beboparoo said:I don't think all newbies are mistreated in OT, in fact there is more of a problem with newbies who do not respect the other members.

Veggie was raked over the coals tonight for posting something in the wrong forum. FW members are equal-opportunity bashers.

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Flaming - Per the other thread, there are many different interpretations of the term. These rules don't clarify anything.

Rehab - You need to break out the ban stick more often.

Off topic forum - So it's ok to post all the lies and other BS you want in this forum? It's ok to make up quotes and attribute them to other members? You want to build a community, yet you provide no options for unsupported attacks on someone's integrity/character to be removed. When do comments cross the libel/slander line?

Review of decisions - What about people that prefer to keep their bitching in the forums, and don't file a support
ticket?

Madmurphy said:Newbies absolutely deserve respect as do all members.No they don't. If a noob asks a stupid question that was either already answered in the thread or is in one of the FAQ's, they deserve the community response. How many times have people posted questions like "what does YMMV and B&M mean?"? Teach them to use the search function from day 1.

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Voting a “live” deal “dead” is a form of burying a deal. If the OP information on a deal matches the listed price on the link, it is considered to be “live.”

The item must also have to be in stock or in some way orderable, right?

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lostdude said:Political and Religious Materials

I say do not allow this either. How do you define "legit"? How about a free sticker that says "XXXX sucks balls"?
Legit means attainable as a live deal that doesn't break our standard criteria (pornographic, referral, ect.) I see what you're saying. However, I think that we should offer users the opportunity to attain items of a political or religious nature. While some items might be controversial, the danger of disruption is tied more to the discussion than the item itself.

Beboparoo said:I don't think all newbies are mistreated in OT, in fact there is more of a problem with newbies who do not respect the other members.I agree this is a problem from time to time. Somehow, we need to find a way to help newbies to integrate more effectively into our community. Ideally, they hang around a while and get a feel for us before posting. And then, once they start to post, they realize that as a stranger coming into a community (just like in "real" life), it is important to respect the boundaries of common courtesy. If anyone wants to push those boundaries, the best way is to get some community cred first (also, just like in "real life). So, yes, we need to do something here. I imagine it would be something like a front porch, a place where people can be introduced before entering. Right now, we're dealing with a foyer (that's just our current reality). So until we figure out the best way to build a porch, community needs to offer the hospitality needed to make room for outsiders coming in.

Madmurphy said:Before implementing a policy of protecting the newbies through special moderation (coddling), perhaps you should step back and look at the forest. Newbies absolutely deserve respect as do all members. However, newbies also should respect the rules of the forum as should all members. Using the above techniques to help integrate them into the fora might be better than coddling because coddling often produces spoiled brats and resentful older siblings.Yes, it is definitely a two-way street. We can only expect that our regulars respectful behavior will be limited when newbies come in and disrespect the community as a whole (a form of marking territory).

As for the "coddling" of the newbies, again I think a front porch intro would be very helpful. That way they are aware of newbie expectations.

RightHere said:Flaming - Per the other thread, there are many different interpretations of the term. These rules don't clarify anything.

Rehab - You need to break out the ban stick more often.

Off topic forum - So it's ok to post all the lies and other BS you want in this forum? It's ok to make up quotes and attribute them to other members? You want to build a community, yet you provide no options for unsupported attacks on someone's integrity/character to be removed. When do comments cross the libel/slander line?

Review of decisions - What about people that prefer to keep their bitching in the forums, and don't file a support
ticket?
Break out the ban stick more often? I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from, because it sounds like this will run us down the road to accusations of "overmoderation."

Your questions regarding the atmosphere in OT are significant. We are indeed trying to build a community. Our site is deal oriented, and OT is the social lounge where people hang out. I would like to hear what other have to say about your "Off topic forum" section. Because, honestly, we do have a problem.

About choosing to complain in the forms rather than ask for a review: Assuming that they are aware of the option and there was no attempt to contact us, then it sounds like the goal isn't to resolve an issue, but to complain (probably to get attention). My concern is that people may not know that they have this option (that too may lead to the scenario you portray). If there are questions regarding decisions, then talk with us. It doesn't mean the decision will change, but it also doesn't mean that it won't.

RightHere said:Madmurphy said:Newbies absolutely deserve respect as do all members.No they don't. If a noob asks a stupid question that was either already answered in the thread or is in one of the FAQ's, they deserve the community response. How many times have people posted questions like "what does YMMV and B&M mean?"? Teach them to use the search function from day 1.I'm with Madmurphy here.

IAmStingRay said:Voting a “live” deal “dead” is a form of burying a deal. If the OP information on a deal matches the listed price on the link, it is considered to be “live.” The item must also have to be in stock or in some way orderable, right?

Yes. A deal is only live if it is attainable (go to site, drop in cart).

Pyeed to add lots of stuff.

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VBMcGB said:lostdude said:Political and Religious Materials

I say do not allow this either. How do you define "legit"? How about a free sticker that says "XXXX sucks balls"?
I see what you're saying. However, I think that we should offer users the opportunity to attain items of a political or religious nature. While some items might be controversial, the danger of disruption is tied more to the discussion than the item itself.


probably not the best place to bring this up, what it is in response to your comment above.

What about PETA freebies? You say you want the discussion to be the deal, I know that there's a huge uproar every time a PETA freebie is posted. The reason being that they have all these cute kiddie freebies and when you get them, it's a coloring book and stickers depicting animals being slaughtered.

While I think it's wonderful that some people want to be veggie and be kind to animals, the marketing of these freebies as great freebies for kids is wrong. Is there some way of having a mod make a comment under the OP stating some kind of warning for those who haven't come across PETA's items before? That might prevent the string of negativity that follows any of these threads.

Some parents might not have issue with their toddlers seeing pictures of big bird turned into chicken nuggets, but the majority of parents wouldn't want that and shouldn't be caught surprised when this shows up.

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shopliftinginva said:VBMcGB said:lostdude said:Political and Religious Materials

I say do not allow this either. How do you define "legit"? How about a free sticker that says "XXXX sucks balls"?
I see what you're saying. However, I think that we should offer users the opportunity to attain items of a political or religious nature. While some items might be controversial, the danger of disruption is tied more to the discussion than the item itself.


probably not the best place to bring this up, what it is in response to your comment above.

What about PETA freebies? You say you want the discussion to be the deal, I know that there's a huge uproar every time a PETA freebie is posted. The reason being that they have all these cute kiddie freebies and when you get them, it's a coloring book and stickers depicting animals being slaughtered.

While I think it's wonderful that some people want to be veggie and be kind to animals, the marketing of these freebies as great freebies for kids is wrong. Is there some way of having a mod make a comment under the OP stating some kind of warning for those who haven't come across PETA's items before? That might prevent the string of negativity that follows any of these threads.

Some parents might not have issue with their toddlers seeing pictures of big bird turned into chicken nuggets, but the majority of parents wouldn't want that and shouldn't be caught surprised when this shows up.
That’s an excellent question, and this is the right place for it. I actually had to deal with this regarding a political freebie not too long ago.

Bad post: Putting this material out for children is stupid. It’s nothing but traumatic brainwashing at an early age. PETA is is a bunch of extremist nuts. Same for everyone who supports them.

Why is this bad? First, it is an attack against PETA. Second, it is an attack against those who support it. Overall, the post is inflammatory in its accusations. It serves as a baited hook for a flame war.

Good post: I believe it is too graphic for children. Some parents might not have issue with their toddlers seeing the pictures therein, but I don’t think the majority of parents would want that and would be caught by surprise when this shows up. If parents opt to get this, I suggest looking it over first before handing this over to children.

Why is this good? First, it is non-judgmental regarding PETA or its supporters by focusing clearly on the merits of the product available. Second, it is filled with “I” messages. “I believe” and “I don’t think” and “I suggest. This post doesn’t have a dogmatic, accusatory, or inflammatory tone. It reads as dispassionate, and is less likely to draw out emotionally charged responses. (After posting this, I would also suggest sending a Mod Alert in that says, "potential flame war. you might want to sit on this thread.")

In short, it is possible to respond to potential hot buttons in a productive way. It’s not a matter of whether one should voice concerns when deals are posted. Users certainly should. But, if a user wants to do so, it is the responsibility of the user to do so as productively as possible.

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VBMcGB said:Bad post: Putting this material out for children is stupid. It’s nothing but traumatic brainwashing at an early age. PETA is is a bunch of extremist nuts. Same for everyone who supports them.What if you removed the last two sentences of that post?

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RightHere said:Madmurphy said:Newbies absolutely deserve respect as do all members.No they don't. If a noob asks a stupid question that was either already answered in the thread or is in one of the FAQ's, they deserve the community response. How many times have people posted questions like "what does YMMV and B&M mean?"? Teach them to use the search function from day 1.Of course newbies deserve respect - however, voting a newbie's post red is not a sign of disrespect. A negative rating is a sign that the thread does not belong in that forum, nothing more. Disabling voting would mean more crappy posts not being filtered out.

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jayK said:VBMcGB said:Bad post: Putting this material out for children is stupid. It’s nothing but traumatic brainwashing at an early age. PETA is is a bunch of extremist nuts. Same for everyone who supports them.What if you removed the last two sentences of that post?You all like putting me in the hot seat today, don’t you?

That’s a tricky one. On the one hand, it doesn’t quite cross the line, though it nudges it. It is a comment on the behavior of an organization rather than on the organization itself. On the other hand, it really isn’t productive and it may lead the conversation down an inappropriate path. Though the behavior of the organization is being called "stupid," those who identify with it may bite the emotional hook. We know what happens after that.

Personally, if I were to see this I would be inclined to leave it. However, I would probably put a reminder in the thread immediately that we "don’t want to go there.” I would then watch it and see where it goes. That would be me trying to uphold our “hands off” principle, while at the same time preparing for the possibility that I might have to funnel the conversation to avoid political commentary. Sometimes, trying to balance two principles can be tricky.

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VBMcGB said:Alts
No alts. Period. Alts do not serve a productive purpose. People use them for hiding. They are used to skew voting, either negatively or positively. Alts make user tracking difficult. Again, I say, no alts. Period.

Is there an alternative way to view x threads per page on device A and y threads per page on device B (because of different screen size, connection speed, etc)? I understand the motivation behind this principle/rule, but I don't know of an alternative solution.

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