Request: Soliciting Opinions on Term Life Insurance Rates

No, I'm not hiding anything - I'm in good health. I don't know why the agent who called me said that HSBC has the lowest rates; that's just what he told me. He also said no physical exam was necessary since I'm in good health (that seemed a little fishy to me). He said that a physical exam is only necessary if you disclose health problems.

Can you tell me where I can find a different agent? Do you recommend calling a bank directly (I've been thinking about calling HSBC to cut out the middle man since he must take a cut)? Which bank/insurer should I call?

Hsbc is specializing in no med exam policies

You will use a different company if you want a low rate policy

You do not save a penny going direct and trying to cutout a middleman, so find a hood agent who sells many companies and doesn't lie like this guy did

My wife and I are using Northwest mutual and have been doing so for about 6 years. I have a $450K policy guaranteed for 15 years for something like $280/yr. I got the policy when I was 26 and required a blood draw. I am in very good health and no prior medical history. It seems like your rate is high, I would look at terms4sale.com as someone else had suggested. Hope this helps.

30yo male, obtained policy this year
2.5million
995/year, 20 year term
Ohio National

Looks like you aren't getting a very good deal. My policy required a physical, lab draw, and EKG.

juggler451 said: Got a $1 mill 20 year term policy last year for $430/year as a 26 male in excellent health.

After looking at rates at term4sale, I'm thinking I should get a new 15 year policy b/c I could get a $295/year rate.

Based upon your post, I'm not sure what you are saying.
Are you thinking of dropping the original policy and replacing it with a new 15 year policy?
Are you keeping the existing policy and purchasing a new 15 year policy?

My guess without knowing your situation is that neither of those will be your best option.
The first option saves you a few dollars, but adds a lot of risk if your insurability changes and you need coverage longer than 15 years. I've spoken to many 27 year olds. Many believe that they won't need coverage at age 42. Rarely do I talk to a 42 year old who would be comfortable without coverage. In 20 years in business, I've personally never had a client who was ready to drop coverage in their early 40's.

If you are looking to get an additional $1,000,000 policy, your best bet is probably to replace the old policy with a new one for $2,000,000. The premium will be only slightly more than what the existing policy + the new 15 year policy would be and the entire thing would stay level for 20 more years instead of half for 19 years and half for 15 years.

SUCKISSTAPLES said: Wow I am cringing at the rates some ppl here are paying, and I'm sure IE is too

Just shows that even if just buying term
Insurance, there are sleazy agents who will say anything to
Close the deal and make the client think they got a good rate
Goes back to earlier back-and-forth posts in similar threads regarding whether a sales person (including an insurance agent) would sell a product that gets him/her the most commission or sell a product that is most beneficial to the customer based their individual situation.

InsuranceExpert said: juggler451 said: Got a $1 mill 20 year term policy last year for $430/year as a 26 male in excellent health.

After looking at rates at term4sale, I'm thinking I should get a new 15 year policy b/c I could get a $295/year rate.

Based upon your post, I'm not sure what you are saying.
Are you thinking of dropping the original policy and replacing it with a new 15 year policy?
Are you keeping the existing policy and purchasing a new 15 year policy?

My guess without knowing your situation is that neither of those will be your best option.
The first option saves you a few dollars, but adds a lot of risk if your insurability changes and you need coverage longer than 15 years. I've spoken to many 27 year olds. Many believe that they won't need coverage at age 42. Rarely do I talk to a 42 year old who would be comfortable without coverage. In 20 years in business, I've personally never had a client who was ready to drop coverage in their early 40's.

If you are looking to get an additional $1,000,000 policy, your best bet is probably to replace the old policy with a new one for $2,000,000. The premium will be only slightly more than what the existing policy + the new 15 year policy would be and the entire thing would stay level for 20 more years instead of half for 19 years and half for 15 years.

I am thinking of dropping the 20 year policy and replacing it w/ a 15 year policy. But, maybe I should reevaluate that...

I've mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating. There is lots of anti-commission rhetoric that takes place. However, as a generality, the more commission that is paid (as a %), the less expensive the product. This sounds counter-intuitive. However, let's look at this with the attitude that salesmen are motivated by greed.

Company A pays a commission of 80%. Company B pays 70%. They both charge $500. Which product will get sold. Company A will sell more. They will then have lower fixed costs. More sales can allow them to lower their cost. What if Company C comes along and doesn't pay any commission? Can they undercut Companies A and B? Nope. They have to hire people to sell their product. This costs more than paying commissions.

biomedeng said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: Wow I am cringing at the rates some ppl here are paying, and I'm sure IE is too

Just shows that even if just buying term
Insurance, there are sleazy agents who will say anything to
Close the deal and make the client think they got a good rate
I'm actually going through buying life insurance for the first time. Many of these agents are quoting me policies that are $200/year more than the cheapest on term4sale. Most of them will only quote preferred instead of preferred plus, even when I tell them I am in excellent health (and term4sale says I should qualify based on their health analyzer)--it makes me think they will make up a BS reason to give me preferred or regular class term so they can get a better commission.
I have finally gotten someone who is quoting the cheapest plans on term4sale and promises to shop all insurance companies once I have my medical exam, but this is probably the fifth or sixth guy I've talked to! Strangely this is the guy who is located half-way across the country vs. the other people who were at least in my state.
It sucks that state insurance regulations limit me to a select number of agents. Otherwise I could just get IE or someone else from FWF to give me a good quote.

theres a couple issues here, as IE touched on.

First and foremost, the agents dont select the rating you will get - thats what underwriting is for. If it turns out you qualify for best pricing, you should GET it, even if you were initially quoted only for preferred.

The real issue is whether these agents sell the companies you are finding are cheapest. Many agents are required to sell a certain company, or arent approved to sell a certain company which may be cheaper, so they quote higher rates from other companies.

My last agent had to specifically become appointed to sell the particular company I requested (SBLI) because he had never sold with them...however he was willing to signup to sell their products. Otherwise he typically steers people to Metlife since he is part of New England Financial

InsuranceExpert said: Why do state insurance regulations limit your use of agents? Are you simply commenting about the fact that one must be licensed in your state?
This is the problem. Since I live in a less populated state (not CA or NY) there are less agents. Not trying to start an argument about why insurance is rated at the state level, but you have to admit it limits my ability to comparison shop agents when I am not able to choose anyone in the US.

InsuranceExpert said: Do not be upset at agents for not quoting preferred plus. In my opinion, this is a sign of a good agent. Look at it from the agent's perspective. If you are quoted $1000 and the price ends up being $800, you will be a very happy client. If you get quoted, $600 and the price ends up being $700, you will be an unhappy client.
What I am concerned about is being quoted preferred with a company that has cheap preferred rates. Then lets say I qualify for preferred plus with them, but they are not the cheapest for preferred plus. Do I then have to repeat the entire process with a new company? If I am fairly certain I am preferred plus, why not start with the cheapest preferred plus company?
Several of the agents I contacted wouldn't give direct quotes (just gave ranges) and were pushy about scheduling the home medical exam. I just don't have a lot of personal time to waste going through multiple home medical exams to figure out which agent is best.

InsuranceExpert said: What a good agent will do is find the way to get you the best possible rate that he can while helping you to understand that quotes are meaningless. When my clients apply for insurance, we take a very educated guess as to which company will be the best for them. There is a significant percentage of time that we end up using a company other than the one that we used for the initial application.
This is exactly what I want, but how do I know for sure if the agent will do this? Should I just get multiple agents each running their own applications for different insurance companies? Any risk to having multiple insurance applications out there?

If you are eligible check USAA. I just ran my numbers (250k 30 year) through their simple qoute and came up with $293 per year (for 25 years I was at $265 that should be similar to you). I am 30, and ran the numbers as a non-smoker, no premature parental death, and ideal BMI numbers. So, yes you may be able to do better. You may need to dump agents to get the best rates, or they may be able to get you better rate; so try it both ways if you need non exotic coverage.

Since I live in a less populated state (not CA or NY) there are less agents. Not trying to start an argument about why insurance is rated at the state level, but you have to admit it limits my ability to comparison shop agents when I am not able to choose anyone in the US.

An agent should easily be able to get licensed in your state.


What I am concerned about is being quoted preferred with a company that has cheap preferred rates. Then lets say I qualify for preferred plus with them, but they are not the cheapest for preferred plus. Do I then have to repeat the entire process with a new company? If I am fairly certain I am preferred plus, why not start with the cheapest preferred plus company?
Several of the agents I contacted wouldn't give direct quotes (just gave ranges) and were pushy about scheduling the home medical exam. I just don't have a lot of personal time to waste going through multiple home medical exams to figure out which agent is best.

You won't have to go through multiple exams. A good agent will gather all of the medical information and test results and have you sign a HIPAA authorization allowing the information to be shared with other insurance companies.

Ex. It looks like XYZ Insurance Company is the best. We expect the rate to be $1,200. The rate comes back $1400. Because we are in possession of all of the medical information, we can find out (without you doing anything) if another insurance company can do better. If we then get a quote for $1190 from ABC Insurance Company, we will use them. At this point the $1190 is a quote and not an offer of coverage. We would need to fill out an application, but I've never had the rate come back different than the quote. This is because the quote is done with complete information. Filling out an application would be nothing more than a couple signatures because the information will be the same as the previous application and no additional medical testing is needed.


This is exactly what I want, but how do I know for sure if the agent will do this? Should I just get multiple agents each running their own applications for different insurance companies? Any risk to having multiple insurance applications out there?

Just ask. Do not go with multiple agents. You are wasting someone's time and more importantly you might be screwing yourself. With multiple applications, you will need to disclose this information on the application. If you are applying with multiple companies, an insurance company is going to look at the total amount for which you are applying with all companies. This can cause you to get turned down if the total is too much. It can also cause you to have more stringent requirements. Additionally, you would have to get examined multiple times doing it in this manner.

Same software? They probably just looked at Term4sale. If I had my way, I wouldn't even give quotes. One can't make a decision on the amount of coverage to buy nor the time period without knowing the actual rates. One can't know the rates without applying. Keep in mind that applying is nothing more than saying, "Hey insurance company, make me an offer."

(SavingsBank is SBLI.)

dev77 said: I just have to put my 2 cents worth in, you should have an agent spreadsheet your rates, show you several companies(20) or so and make sure you have the ratings of the companies on the spreadsheet, look for a company that has ratings no lower than aa- s and p or aa3 moodies, in this economy you want a strong company. next check and see what the rates are for a little better rated company versus a aa- company, if the aa company is a few dollars difference, pay it. this is how you buy term insurance.

This would make a lot of sense if someone could make a purchase based upon quotes. The problem is that a decision can't be made simply based upon quotes. The quotes DO NOT tell you what the rates will be. Therefore, a spreadsheet will usually be wrong.

Obviously quotes are just quotes, but I think the consensus is you can do better. I just ran a hypothetical on a 24 yr old male 30 year term is Best $167/yr - worst 260/yr for 100k and $247-$442 for 250k. Without the physical, using HSBC you are being quoted toward the high side of that range. They are just assuming you are a higher risk without giving you the chance to prove otherwise with a physical. If you think you are physically fit enough to warrant a better rate, than it is certainly in your best interest to look elsewhere.

axm0701 said: So is SBLI the consensus here? Should I contact them directly? How does one find an agent (I'm in Florida, if this helps)?

There is not a consensus and if there was one, it would be wrong. The reason is that all companies look at things differently. There are plenty of times where SBLI has better rates than another company at the same rating, but what frequently happens is that another company will give a better rating class. In other words, it doesn't matter if SBLI has the best rates for you for super preferred if they won't give you super preferred rates.

An interesting tidbit about SBLI is that they have sex neutral rates (don't know if this is true for all states). This makes them a very competitive company for males, but not so competitive for females.

The key to all of this is still to find a good agent. Unless someone knows that they can get ultra preferred rates with the least expensive carrier, a good agent should be able to make a positive difference.

One thing to keep in mind is that despite this being fatwallet and saving dollars is important, getting the very cheapest is not always the best. Cheaper is certainly preferable to more expensive, but one must also be aware of the games that an insurance company will pay. For instance, how do they handle situations when someone is late on their payment? All that I'm saying here is that $700 is better than $1000, but I wouldn't assume that $700 is better than $710.

InsuranceExpert said: I've mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating. There is lots of anti-commission rhetoric that takes place. However, as a generality, the more commission that is paid (as a %), the less expensive the product. This sounds counter-intuitive. However, let's look at this with the attitude that salesmen are motivated by greed.

Company A pays a commission of 80%. Company B pays 70%. They both charge $500. Which product will get sold. Company A will sell more. They will then have lower fixed costs. More sales can allow them to lower their cost. What if Company C comes along and doesn't pay any commission? Can they undercut Companies A and B? Nope. They have to hire people to sell their product. This costs more than paying commissions.

Your post is an interesting acknowledgement of a fundamental problem with how life insurance is sold. Your example shows that companies know their products won't be sold unless they pay a competitive commission. Meaning that the company that pays more in commission will get more in sales. Obviously not every company is charging the same rates as you imply in your post. Companies opt not compete on rates but rather on commission. Agents are incentivised to sell a product with a higher commission.

Stated another way, why are there so many companies on term4sale selling term insurance with non-competitive rates? Obviosuly they have agents pushing their products instead of cheaper alternatives.

As has been shown time and again, agents often often do not act in the best interest of their clients. The fundamental problem here is that states effectively require that insurance companies sell insurance through agents. Term insurance is a commodity. Its 2010. Why can't insurance companies sell term insurance online? Customers can check rates and then apply with 3 or 4 companies and go with the one that suits them best. No agent needed. Costs go down. People get the insurance they need and not a product an agent pushes them into.

barrister68 said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: InsuranceExpert said:
One thing to keep in mind is that despite this being fatwallet and saving dollars is important, getting the very cheapest is not always the best. Cheaper is certainly preferable to more expensive, but one must also be aware of the games that an insurance company will pay. For instance, how do they handle situations when someone is late on their payment? All that I'm saying here is that $700 is better than $1000, but I wouldn't assume that $700 is better than $710.

So which companies play games with late payments? and which are more lenient? HELP US OUT IE. You are the industry expert. This isnt confidential information you are prevented from sharing.

This seems like a big red herring. Just took out my policy and it says that there is a 31 day grace period from the due date to pay the premium, and if payment is not received by that date, the policy lapses and I have to apply for reinstatement. While I understand the company may not reinstate the policy if I am not insurable, if the premium is paid on time there should be no issue. What "games" could the company play?

As an insurance agent, I actually can’t bad mouth specific insurance companies.

Ex. You move 7 years from now. You never get your premium notice. Your agent doesn’t get notified that the payment is late until after the 31 day period is expired.

Some companies will do all that they can to make sure that policies don’t lapse (multiple notifications to the insured and the agent before and after the due date). Others will do as little as possible (1 bill to the insured and no notification to the agent until after the grace period has expired).

InsuranceExpert said: barrister68 said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: InsuranceExpert said:
One thing to keep in mind is that despite this being fatwallet and saving dollars is important, getting the very cheapest is not always the best. Cheaper is certainly preferable to more expensive, but one must also be aware of the games that an insurance company will pay. For instance, how do they handle situations when someone is late on their payment? All that I'm saying here is that $700 is better than $1000, but I wouldn't assume that $700 is better than $710.

So which companies play games with late payments? and which are more lenient? HELP US OUT IE. You are the industry expert. This isnt confidential information you are prevented from sharing.

This seems like a big red herring. Just took out my policy and it says that there is a 31 day grace period from the due date to pay the premium, and if payment is not received by that date, the policy lapses and I have to apply for reinstatement. While I understand the company may not reinstate the policy if I am not insurable, if the premium is paid on time there should be no issue. What "games" could the company play?


As an insurance agent, I actually can’t bad mouth specific insurance companies.

Ex. You move 7 years from now. You never get your premium notice. Your agent doesn’t get notified that the payment is late until after the 31 day period is expired.

Some companies will do all that they can to make sure that policies don’t lapse (multiple notifications to the insured and the agent before and after the due date). Others will do as little as possible (1 bill to the insured and no notification to the agent until after the grace period has expired).

OK IE since you cant "bad mouth" insurance companies, how about you tell us which are the companies which DO provide multiple notices to customer and agent to avoid lapse? Certainly you can tell us about these companies with good practices