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My husband bought a car 5 weeks ago. He walked out with a certified volkswagen jetta. The next day driving to work when he would brake he notice the brakes acting funny, so he called the dealer and got the car in. Couple day later they said there was a problem and they fixed it. When we were there they still were having problems with the bank finacing our loan. When we left we thought everything was good. A couple of weeks later while driving the car the car stalled out (it's automatic) in the middle of traffic. It took a couple of minutes but I put it in park and turned it on and it worked. A week later a light came on the dashboard. We would check our manual but we never got one. So we googled and we think it's the tire pressure but it doesn't seem to be the problem.

Last week I got a call asking us both to come in to sign more papers(I wasn't on the loan). My husband called back and they said he didn't get the loan and they found a new bank that would finance the loan with both of us on the loan. The car dealer is an hour and fifteen minutes away. So I had my husband call them back again and ask them what the payment was. The finance guy said he would get that information and call us back and never called us back that day. For the next couple days we received calls from them telling us to come down and when we would tell them we wanted to know our payment before we came down, they would say they would check on it and never call us back. Today my husband asked and the guy said the same payments but didn't say the amount.

Also a couple of days ago while at the bank drive thru the car stalled out and my husband was there to witness it. Yesterday my husband called his dad and asked him for $8,000 just in case to buy a used car if it came down to that. So now we have a back up plan. At this point I ready to walk away for this car. We are moving in a couple of days and we don't have time to waste at a car dealer. I pretty sure it's going to be more of a payment. Plus I'm a little bit upset with all the problems we are having in 40 short days, what's to come in the next couple of years(the car only has 40k miles on it). I was thinking of dropping it off at night after closing with their keys and a letter. What do you think?

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Don't know why you got red, but all you have to do is look up JD Powers and a lot of other surveys, VW is basically at t... (more)

henry33 (Jun. 16, 2011 @ 6:41p) |

YMMV - I've had a VW 9 years and just last week had the first unscheduled repair. A lot of normal car places dont know h... (more)

DigiornosHunter (Jun. 16, 2011 @ 6:46p) |

Op what happened?

SUCKISSTAPLES (Jun. 21, 2011 @ 4:18a) |

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nicole246 said:    I was thinking of dropping it off at night after closing with their keys and a letter.

That's probably the 2nd worst possible idea, second only to dropping it off and setting it on fire in their parking lot.

Your husband no doubt signed 2 contracts, one to purchase the car and another to get the financing.

That the financing fell thru does not automatically negate the first contract, leaving you owing the full purchase price of the car.

Sounds like lawyer time, to me, especially since dealer is an hour away. But others may differ.

edit: fwiw, everything in your first paragraph other than the first 2 sentences is irrelevant.

There have been other threads on FWF about bank shenanigans regarding car loans. Find them and see the suggestions given.

Leaving the car with keys at the dealership when they are closed is a terrible idea, IMHO.

I'd use your leverage regarding the loan (which is likely to have worse terms than the previous loan you agreed to when you purchased the car) to negotiate the return of the car for your full deposit back if that is the result you would like.

If they couldnt get it financed for you, they can have the car back. Dont sign anything new.

But read the documents you did sign to see what they say. The dealer will try all kinds of empty threats, esp if they say you turned it in worse condition.

If the dealer is an hour away, I would tell them to pick up the car. The dealer will likely threaten to report the car as stolen. If you plan on taking it to them, dont leave a note, it would only be used against you. You can call them and say you arent signing any new papers and its sitting outside for them.

Doesnt the certified used warranty have any weight to it, like a brand new car with regards to lemon law? With that many problems, I would say go back and cancel the contract to buy it.

I agree with Beefjerkay ... dropping it off with the keys and a letter is a bad idea, especially if you don't have a copy of every single thing you signed. And I think SIS's advice is sound ... as it usually is. If they want to take the car, let 'em. Even if they charge you for usage, which they probably will, it might be worth it.*

erincast, the word "certified" can mean whatever the dealer interprets it to mean - and the only interpretation that counts is the interpretation in writing. The word alone really doesn't mean a thing without an official, legal warranty to back it up.

*if your ultimate plan is to get rid of the car, the less said about the mechanical problems the better ... but get independent verification of the problems before you take it in. Did you have it inspected by an independent mechanic before you bought it?

You are right, we shouldn't drop off the car at night with a letter. My husband wants to have them fax the new payments and new documents before we come down and if it's more tell them to pick up their car or meet them half way. I was the one to want to drop off the car at the dealer because I felt bad.

I'm concerned about what my husband signed like Beefjerkay said, beacause we are moving all of our files are boxed. But I guess we'll be looking for them. It's just frusturating with a move in a couple of days and dealing with this. Thanks for all the comments.

I bought (leased) a car last year which had a condition that if finacing was not approved the dealer would get the vehicle back without a mileage charge, or else I would have to sign new paperwork. If I didn't agree with any new terms or conditions the dealer would have the right to take the vehicle back and void the sale. I was unhappy even signing it, because they had 2 full days to make sure I was approved before I flew in to pick up the car.

They goofed due to some tax calculations and I refused to sign the new paperwork , as it raised my rate by $10 a month. I knew I had the upper hand because we had already driven the vehicle 1500 miles, and the dealer knew they'd have to drive 1500 miles each way to pick it up. Needless to say they found a way to make the original contracted price work, and very humbly asked us to sign the new loan doc at the same (actually slightly better) rate.

Moral of the story: you are the luckies SOB alive, because you are unhappy with the vehicle PLUS the dealer doesn't have an approved loan. Park the car, pull the plates, and let them pickup and void the sale. If you have it in writing that the loan could not be approved as previously written & signed, also look into having Volkswagen tow it (certified cars come with towing coverage, right??) without a license plate.

Note that if they won't tell you this in writing, there is a chance the dealer is scamming you to try to get more profit. Maybe they did get it approved but they pay a lower wholesale rate to a different loan provider, or a lower rate if you have a cosigner.

nicole246 said:   You are right, we shouldn't drop off the car at night with a letter. My husband wants to have them fax the new payments and new documents before we come down and if it's more tell them to pick up their car or meet them half way. I was the one to want to drop off the car at the dealer because I felt bad.

I'm concerned about what my husband signed like Beefjerkay said, beacause we are moving all of our files are boxed. But I guess we'll be looking for them. It's just frusturating with a move in a couple of days and dealing with this. Thanks for all the comments.
So have them fax you all the papers you did sign along with the proposed new deal. And if they refuse they can come get the car

Car dealers are not your friend - they are in business to make money, just like anyone else. Definitely stick to your guns and don't let them sweet talk you into signing anything without thoroughly reading it over.

OP, you described one of the sleazier tactics used by less than reputable car dealers... get someone in a car at a specific loan term, then void out the loan and convince them to sign a loan that will definitely cost you more money and make them more profit (either by a referral fee from an equally sleazy lender, or through a higher rate/longer term/both with their own in-house financing.) Google KarzPlusRV in SoCAL to read the many reviews.

As stated several times above, read what you signed carefully. Use a lawyer if you do not clearly understand it.

Most likely letting them come pick the car up with no plates attached is your best bet. They probably have an electronic tracking device installed and know where the car is. (You get extra points for locating it under the drivers dash, disconnecting it, duct taping it and reconnecting it to a cheap 12v battery, then tossing it in the back of a semi headed towards Mexico.)

BTW, VW=POS

Buy one of Delzy's used Crown Vics!

nicole246 said:   My husband called back and they said he didn't get the loan and they found a new bank that would finance the loan with both of us on the loan. The car dealer is an hour and fifteen minutes away. So I had my husband call them back again and ask them what the payment was.

First, IANAL so none of this is legal advice.

The practice of letting you take the car home before financing is secured is called spot delivery. Some people will try to tell you it's unethical due to the fact that it allows for scenarios like yours, but in reality if you're financing the car through the dealer it's the only way the dealer can let you drive out in a new car the same day as you test drive it, because bank financing is virtually never approved instantaneously.

What happens is that the finance manager (FM) gets monthly (and sometimes weekly) charts from each lending institution (banks, automakers' captive finance arms, sub-prime lenders, etc; but hereafter referred to as "banks") that his/her dealership sells loans to, and the charts give guidelines as to what loans the banks will buy at specific interest rates based on credit score, credit report qualifications, income, supporting documentation, etc. So after you fill out the financing application the FM has to try to very quickly figure out which bank he/she can get to buy the loan that will simultaneously give you the best rate while also giving the dealership the best spread (banks will often let the dealer take up to two percentage points for themselves on top of the rate the bank quotes the dealer, but this varies widely by bank, credit score, captive financing promotions -- obviously a dealer can't take points on top of, say, a 0% promotion -- etc). It's not uncommon for a FM to have charts from 40+ banks, so especially for people who are more marginal credit customers where bank stipulations can vary wildly, the FM is just making a best guess as to what terms he/she can get the customer for a loan. And sometimes the FM will guess wrong, and when the FM tries to get the bank to buy the loan, usually within a week after you left with the car, the bank turns the FM down. This is usually more indicative of either an incompetent FM or rapidly changing market conditions (it happened at a tremendous frequency a few years ago during the bank crash when the financing taps just shut off) than it is of a dealer trying to scam you. And the upside is that it works either way -- if a bank gives a dealer a rate more than 2% (the spread) below what he/she had the customer sign the paperwork for, the FM has to call the customer back in to get him/her to re-sign the loan paperwork at the lower rate (I've known several people whom this has happened to -- the FM will pretend like they're doing you a favor but in reality he/she just f'd up, because the FM doesn't want to have to have you come back in to re-sign paperwork any more than you do).

However, the red flag comes up where the dealer won't tell you the new payment terms. If this happened more than once, this is not an oversight, this is an indication that the dealer is scared that you won't agree to them over the phone, and knows that they're much more likely to get you to agree to the new terms in person.

Again, IANAL, but in most states there are laws regarding spot delivery, and when a vehicle is being financed, the purchase agreement is dependent on the loan agreement (if there is one) being executed as signed. If the dealer tries to materially change the terms of the loan, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PURCHASE THE CAR. If you decide that you want to keep the car anyway, if the dealer tells you that they have to raise your payment because of a higher interest rate, you can likely negotiate the purchase price down so the payments stay the same. The truth of the matter is, after 5 weeks (and knowing the car has problems) the dealer is going to do anything they possibly can to not have to take the car back, so you can probably not only negotiate the same payments, but also for them to drive a loaner car to you with the new paperwork for you to sign, take your car back to the dealer and fix it, and then bring your car back to you when it's fixed and pick the loaner car up.

You may not want to keep the car anyway due to the problems, but that being said, tire pressure monitor issues are extremely common with any make of car and almost always just require recalibrating the TPMS system (takes their service department about 2 minutes), and the stalling may be a very simple issue as well (if it's a VW it's probably some variety of engine sensor) and not necessarily indicative of greater problems with the car. So it may be best to just look at this as a great bargaining opportunity. But the important part is that you have options.


Edit: grammar and clarification

OP how far away are you moving? why not take the car with you, then you can tell the dealer to pick it up from some really inconvenient location?

For God's sake, thank your lucky stars that the financing fell through. This car sounds like it is about to fall apart any minute.

Return the car and get another one. From a different dealer.

StevenColorado said:   For God's sake, thank your lucky stars that the financing fell through. This car sounds like it is about to fall apart any minute.

Return the car and get another one. From a different dealer.


And this time have your financing set up before you even walk into the dealership so it takes that negotiation off of the table.

Do you already know why the bank is having trouble financing the loan?

nicole246 said:   My husband called back and they said he didn't get the loan and they found a new bank that would finance the loan with both of us on the loan. The car dealer is an hour and fifteen minutes away. So I had my husband call them back again and ask them what the payment was.

BTW don't just look at the monthly payment. The dealers can make the monthly payment whatever they want it to be by massaging other attributes of the loan like length of the loan, down payment, balloon payment etc. So go through the loan docs carefully if you decide to purchase it.

I wouldn't even agree to sign at the same rate if the lender is different than previously agreed to. You shoudn't have to, and remember this is a blessing in disguise, as it's a way out of a car you are having bad experiences with.

I love my volkswagen tdi but after buying it used with a warranty, it was in the shop for 150 days the first 6 months I owened it. All in all, the dealer put $18k into a car I bought for $6k, then it was as good as new.... Plus I drove their expensive BMW, VW SUV, and Enterprise rent a cars for over 20,000 miles that summer.

Seems to be a bad thing

This...

BTW, VW=POS

Sternforpres said:   This...

BTW, VW=POS


Just a data point: my wife's 2005 VW Passat TDI just passed 160,000 miles and we just had the first unscheduled repair on it. YMMV.

To the OP: never drive a car off the lot before the financing is finalized, but this time it may have saved you from a lemon.

gtalum said:   Sternforpres said:   This...

BTW, VW=POS


Just a data point: my wife's 2005 VW Passat TDI just passed 160,000 miles and we just had the first unscheduled repair on it. YMMV.

To the OP: never drive a car off the lot before the financing is finalized, but this time it may have saved you from a lemon.


Somewhat off-topic: have you had the balance shaft module replaced on it? Still trying to figure out if it's hogwash or absolutely necessary (a $2800 repair).

gtalum said:   Sternforpres said:   This...

BTW, VW=POS


Just a data point: my wife's 2005 VW Passat TDI just passed 160,000 miles and we just had the first unscheduled repair on it. YMMV.

To the OP: never drive a car off the lot before the financing is finalized, but this time it may have saved you from a lemon.


Actually, it's VW=EXPENSIVE POS. My Jetta's alarm used to randomly go off. The dealer couldn't figure it out, and corporate did nothing to help out. Lots of money and time I threw out before I finally got rid of the POS for about 60% of KBB, because so many people are selling their Jettas. DO NOT BUY VWs!

As said see what the paperwork your husband signed says. You MIGHT be able to drop it off and just walk away. But don;t do that until you read the paperwork.

As a former auto-tech do NOT buy a VW if relability is something that is important to you. They drive great but like most european cars they cost more to maintain and have a much lowwer relabilty compared to most american and asian cars.

VW are also a pain in the ass to work on. I changed a headlight in my friends Jetta... had to take off tons of plastic panels just to put it in... the whole thing was basically designed to make maintenance harder so you take it to the dealer.

I want people to know that THIS APPLIES TO NEW CARS as well. When I bought my car new, the dealer actually had us go back a week later because he said he found a better rate for us. He said it was optional whether we wanted to re-sign the papers for a lower rate or not. There was no pressure to do so. We did it but I regreted it because the new rate had a early pay off penalty (about 1 month's payment) attached to it. I'm pretty sure the dealership made more money on the new loan too.

I agree with Esoterica. I work at a car dealership, and occasionally it DOES happen where, try as we might, we spot deliver a car and cannot secure financing - either because the buyer lied on their credit app, or couldn't come up with the necessary proof of residency or income, or the bank wasn't satisfied, or the moon shifted into Venus in retrograde and the bank said screw those buyers, we don't want the loan.

As TrueKnight said, this can happen on new cars, used cars, certified pre-owned, whatever. Any situation where you don't go in with cash or your own financing.

You're lucky, in that you're not happy with the car, and they're doing other shifty things that mean you don't want to be involved with this dealer anymore anyway. Take the car back to them, DURING BUSINESS HOURS, and speak to management, preferably not just the finance manager. Go as soon as possible, as car dealers are busier at the end of the month.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:    The dealer will try all kinds of empty threats...I recently had a client buy a ~$300k exotic, and had put down a big chunk as a "non-refundable deposit." No sales contract, and they made him sign a "Non-Refundable Deposit and Arbitration Agreement." They told him he would get his money when hell froze over after telling him that the delivery date was pushed back six months.

I leaned on them, and they caved immediately. The deposit agreement was wholly unenforceable, and likely bordered on fraud. I think they made more money off that scam than actually selling exotics.

Don't EVER leave the lot with a car unless the whole thing is approved: financing, purchase, etc. A lot of these companies will hide clauses stating that if you don't get approved for financing, you owe them $X for each day you used the car.

brettdoyle said:   VW are also a pain in the ass to work on. I changed a headlight in my friends Jetta... had to take off tons of plastic panels just to put it in... the whole thing was basically designed to make maintenance harder so you take it to the dealer.

VW's are mostly garbage on mechanical reliability as well. Used to make great cars, but they've gone to hell since.

Generally agree with the commentary here, but two things I'd highlight.

1. If you do end up wanting to keep the car, there is, frankly, zero reason you need to come into the dealership. They can FedEx you the paperwork, you can look at it on your own time, in your own home, and decide if it's something you're comfortable signing, and then decide how to proceed.

2. Don't focus on the payment. Focus on the price of the car, and the interest rate on the loan. Payments are a function of car price, interest rate, and term of the loan. In particular, you can get a much lower payment with a longer loan term, but you'll end up paying much more for the car. For example, a 5 year loan, at 4%, with a $25k purchase price, is $460/month. If you extend that to a 6 year loan, at 6%, with a $27.8k purchase price, you also get a $460/month payment. In the second case, though, you'll have paid over $33k for the car, including interest, vs. less than $28k in the first example.

valueinvestor said:   brettdoyle said:   VW are also a pain in the ass to work on. I changed a headlight in my friends Jetta... had to take off tons of plastic panels just to put it in... the whole thing was basically designed to make maintenance harder so you take it to the dealer.

VW's are mostly garbage on mechanical reliability as well. Used to make great cars, but they've gone to hell since.


Don't know why you got red, but all you have to do is look up JD Powers and a lot of other surveys, VW is basically at the bottom of the pack in terms of reliability. All you have to do is google your VW and the specific problem and you'll probably run into tons of threads about all the problems they have.

valueinvestor said:   brettdoyle said:   VW are also a pain in the ass to work on. I changed a headlight in my friends Jetta... had to take off tons of plastic panels just to put it in... the whole thing was basically designed to make maintenance harder so you take it to the dealer.

VW's are mostly garbage on mechanical reliability as well. Used to make great cars, but they've gone to hell since.


YMMV - I've had a VW 9 years and just last week had the first unscheduled repair. A lot of normal car places dont know how to handle them with electronic issues though.

Op what happened?



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