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I am pretty far along with my application with PenFed for the 5/5 ARM mortgage. They are supposed to be paying all closing costs. I have been going around and around and around with my mortgage processor about the Title Insurance premium. I have been getting what I feel are continually vague and evasive answers about the cost of my share of the Title Insurance should I choose to buy the owner's policy. There is a fairly long history of this that I am not pasting below. The last email exchange I received from her on the issue has me completely perplexed and I was curious about other people's experiences. Every Title Insurance quote I have seen has the Owner's and Lender's policies separated. My Good Faith Estimate has the premiums rolled into one number on the Owner's Title Insurance line in Box 5. I'd appreciate any feedback. Here is the back and forth:

** Important point of clarification: I previously verified with Penfed and my own Attorney's Title Company that the Lender's policy costs $1710 and the owner's policy is $503. The processor agrees with this breakdown but will not acknowledge that Penfed is responsible for the $1710 should I choose to purchase an Owner's policy.

LENDER:
"I have placed your title work order through Service Link. The owners policy is $2213 and the fee will not be broken up on the HUD. The title company advised us their quote for the Owners provides a simultaneous issuance of the lenders. Here is a breakdown of the fees that will be paid if your loan closes:

Pentagon Federal Credit Union will credit on your behalf the following third party fees listed on your Good Faith Estimate if the loan closes. These fees include:
Origination Charge (box 1 on GFE)
All required services (box 3 and 6 on GFE)
Title Service and Lender’s Title Insurance (box 4 on GFE)
Government Recording Charges (box 7 on GFE)
Transfer Taxes (box 8 on GFE)"

ME:
"Ok, so just to clarify, Penfed will be paying $1710 of the $2213 cost for the Title Insurance that is listed in box 5? The reason I am getting so hung up on this is because box 5 is not on the list of fees covered by PenFed. Have a great weekend."

LENDER:
"Based on what the title company has advised us, no. The $1710 is only if you purchase the lenders coverage and no owners. If you purchase them together, the title company states that the owners by itself if $2213 and the lenders gets issued automatically with the owners policy. Basically, buy owners at $2213 and get the lenders free. Or buy Lenders by itself at $1710 (which we would end up paying for)."

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FKAKS (Aug. 02, 2011 @ 1:15p) |

Just to update this, I think I may be screwed here in PA. I got a quote from an independent title insurance company, an... (more)

dawkins20 (Aug. 05, 2011 @ 10:38a) |

Updating the above: HUD-1 came through with title insurance properly apportioned between owners and lenders portion, so... (more)

dawkins20 (Aug. 11, 2011 @ 1:52p) |

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Sounds like you don't realize there's two types of title insurance? The lender's portion is required at every closing and refi and covers the lender for any title defects up to the amount of the mortgage. Owner's title insurance is optional and coveres you up to the full market value of the house. Penfed's promotion covers only lender's title insurance, it's up to you whether you want to buy the owner's title insurance.

psychoslowmatic said:   Sounds like you don't realize there's two types of title insurance? The lender's portion is required at every closing and refi and covers the lender for any title defects up to the amount of the mortgage. Owner's title insurance is optional and coveres you up to the full market value of the house. Penfed's promotion covers only lender's title insurance, it's up to you whether you want to buy the owner's title insurance.

No, I understand quite well how title insurance works. The issue is that if I elect to purchase an Owner's policy, Penfed appears to be forcing me to also pay for the Lender's policy. If I choose NOT to purchase the Owner's policy, then Penfed pays for the Lender's policy. It makes no sense and seems a completely non-standard practice. I have already asked to escalate this issue to management since it seems entirely insane. I was hoping to find out if other people have had this issue with Penfed or if my processor is simply wrong.

I've added a note to the OP to explain that the Processor previously acknowledged the breakdown between the Lender's and Owner's policies. The issue is that the Processor states that if I choose to buy an Owner's policy, I then also have to pay the Lender's policy. Makes no sense.

Why not just contact another title company and by the owners policy separate on your own?

That is my fall back option. However, if I am not mistaken, I would then need to pay for another Title Search through that insurance company AND my understanding is that the Buyer's policy costs more purchased stand alone.

For my own clarification: This is a purchase loan rather than a refinance, correct? If it's a re-fi, please explain why you are purchasing an owner's policy. Thanks.

Assuming you need both owner's and lender's title insurance, I suggest stop arguing with the loan processor and escalate this to a manager who presumably would actually understand the situation. If PenFed says they'll credit the cost of the lender's policy and they acknowledge the breakdown of the owner's and lender's policy costs, then obviously they need to do as they promised. I can see no reason why they wouldn't provide the breakdown, as both the GFE and the HUD-1 settlement statement have separate line items for them.

Keep in mind that the loan processor doesn't necessarily have any real understanding of these matters. You need to deal with someone who does.

Edited to correct typos.

glxpass said:   For my own clarification: This is a purchase loan rather than a refinance, correct? If it's a re-fi, please explain why you are purchasing an owner's policy. Thanks.
http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/clark-howard/homes-real-estate/b...

This is for a purchase transaction, not a refi.

I've already requested that the issue be escalated. I have every intention of getting someone higher up on the line first thing Monday morning. I also can see no valid reason for the values not to be broken down and properly reflected on the GFE and HUD. That is the normal way for such things to be represented so far as I know.

I am really seeking feedback from someone who has taken this loan product (ie. the 5/5 ARM with Penfed) and can specifically validate that Penfed paid for the Title Insurance and the buyer purchased the Owner's title insurance along with the Lender's policy.

cheezedawg said:   glxpass said:   For my own clarification: This is a purchase loan rather than a refinance, correct? If it's a re-fi, please explain why you are purchasing an owner's policy. Thanks.
http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/clark-howard/homes-real-estate/b...

Now that the OP has confirmed that his loan is a purchase loan, please forgive the OT...

Thanks for the link. Owner's title insurance is attached to the property, not the loan. It's true that it apparently doesn't cover situations that occur *after* the policy goes into effect. The only example Clark Howard gives of why one should purchase an owner's title insurance policy when doing a re-fi is:

Picture this: When you do a refinance, you dump Bank A and pay them off with proceeds lent by Bank B. But what if the money is stolen while being wired from bank to bank? In many states, you could owe both mortgages -- even though you were just doing a refi in good faith!

The Denver Post reports this is happening in case after case. It could be organized crime tapping into a bank's wiring system and swiping money after the refi has taken place. Or it could dishonest employees who steal the money at the time of the refi.


1. I'd like to see some evidence that Howard's assertion that owner's title insurance would have protected the borrower in this circumstance (theft of wired funds) is correct.

2. According to this blog entry, the title company had no insurance against this kind of theft:

Here is the problem that occurred. Cybercriminals out of eastern Europe hijacked the funds being wired. Bank B never received their money, so the old mortgage was never repaid. The couple now owed both Bank A and Bank B for a mortgage on their property. State law does not require the title company to carry insurance for this type of theft, according to the Colorado Division of Insurance. And the title company did not have any insurance to cover the theft of the funds.

IANAL, but it seems that the title company was liable for the loss of the funds and if it had the appropriate insurance coverage, the borrowers wouldn't have been placed in that awful situation.

Rather than taking out an owner's title insurance policy on the re-fi (and paying possibly thousands for it), perhaps the wiser course is to make sure any theft of escrow funds will be covered by the title company.

Again, sorry for the OT.

delete

When title insurance is being issued in a simultaneous issue state, the proper procedure for disclosure of the policy premiums on the GFE and HUD-1 is to place the amount needed to cover the REQUIRED lender coverage in the title services breakdown which flows to a total on line 1101 on the HUD. Only the additional amount which will be charged to give the consumer the optional owner policy is to be placed in the column for owner policy premium.

We see some title insurers doing the HUD-1 incorrectly. This is because they do not understand the meaning of the GFE and HUD-1 consumer disclosure. The reason RESPA rules require two separate quotes is so they consumer understands what is required versus what is optional. If the entire simultaneous issue premium is placed in the optional owner title insurance section, it gives the consumer the false impression that the required lender coverage is free.

This is incorrect. Insist that Service Link provide a proper disclosure or refuse to close. The party from whom you expect reimbursement will be following rules which will likely cause you to lose the premium reimbursement because of the failure of this title agency to prepare a proper disclosure and place the lender title insurance premium in its proper place on the HUD-1. You can always fire this title insurance agency and hire one who understands RESPA.

stook2001, i think your processor is mistaken, i have same purchase loan no closing cost 5/5 ARM , i attach my closing cost estimate which clearly breaks down into owner and lender insurance amounts, also box 4 includes lender's insurance AND "TITLE SERVICES FEE" , i've done an online comparison at title wizard and in my loan scenario owner insurance costs about 2.5X as much as lender policy, so assuming $500 is the title service fee, $565 is lender's policy, and $1185 is owner policy, so the figures make sense in my estimate

i know title fees vary by states, but the breakdown in your case seems to be wrong, the owner's policy amount $503 is too small compared to lender policy and title services fees of $1710

you can go to title wizard to see how much different companies charge on lender and title insurance and see if it agrees with the breakdown they show you

Thank you both! Very useful posts and much appreciated. I've confirmed the correct title insurance rates through my own attorney quite some time ago. Bank/lender policy $1,710.00, owner’s policy $503.00 for a standard policy and $724.00 for an enhanced policy.

My GFE from PenFed shows $2213 under the Owners policy in box 5 (owners title insurance). This is how I was easily able to tell that the numbers were screwed up. I will have a discussion with a manager on Monday. Unfortunately, if I want to leverage PenFed's no closing cost deal, I can not control the Title company they elect to use. PenFed's current position makes absolutely no sense and seems inconsistent with other customers quotes. I expect to get this resolved.

By the way, Bondo, it looks like they are trying to charge you for 33 days of per diem interest at closing. That doesn't seem correct to me for a 7/30 closing. I'm no expert but you might want to double check that number.

Can you tell penfed you only Want the lenders coverage , then call the title company after the loan closes to buy the owners coverage ?

if $1710 + $503 is owner and lender policies, where is title service fee?

Penfed clearly advertise they will pay for the required lender policy and title service fee, and you pay the optional owner's policy, and if you are paying $2213 and they don't pay anything as far as title insurance goes , it's false advertising unless the lender policy is really free!! i agree with you just doesn't make sense

do you mind providing your purchase price, loan amount, and state?

I did not include the Title service fee in the numbers previously described. That value is 860 and listed in box 4.

Purchase price is 725, loan is 580, state is CT.

No idea about buying the owner's coverage subsequently from the same title insurance company. Might be an option, will ask my lawyer for her opinion if I cant get it straightened out with Penfed.

You are speaking to a confused agent... which is not uncommon when dealing with Penfed. They are honest, though not always the sharpest knives in the drawer. You will only pay the optional owners insurance... that's it, that's all.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Can you tell penfed you only Want the lenders coverage , then call the title company after the loan closes to buy the owners coverage ?

That's what I'd do. I imagine the fee structures are similiar from state to state. In NY, with a "simul-fee" policy, you pay the full premium for a fee policy and the mortgage policy is discounted. But every title company I've dealt with would let you order the "simul-fee" policy shortly after closing (why not, it's basically free money to them). So close witht he mortgage policy only (and the lender paying the premium) and then call the title company and tell them you decided you'd like the simul fee policy after all.

bondo123 said:   

you can go to title wizard to see how much different companies charge on lender and title insurance and see if it agrees with the breakdown they show you


That link rejects my zip code, but it accepts a California zip code.
Is that CA only?

deleted

taxmantoo said:   bondo123 said:   

you can go to title wizard to see how much different companies charge on lender and title insurance and see if it agrees with the breakdown they show you


That link rejects my zip code, but it accepts a California zip code.
Is that CA only?


yes

bondo123 said:   stook2001 said:   I did not include the Title service fee in the numbers previously described. That value is 860 and listed in box 4.

Purchase price is 725, loan is 580, state is CT.



i plugged your numbers in title wizard using couple cities in CT, the owner's policy can't be that cheap at $503, more like the lender's should be $508 and Owner's $1710


Can you send me the links you were using? I am going off the numbers that my attorney gave to me from her preferred title company. It makes sense intuitively that the lenders policy would be the higher premium since it is protecting a significantly larger $ investment against a title issue.

stook2001 said:   bondo123 said:   stook2001 said:   I did not include the Title service fee in the numbers previously described. That value is 860 and listed in box 4.

Purchase price is 725, loan is 580, state is CT.



i plugged your numbers in title wizard using couple cities in CT, the owner's policy can't be that cheap at $503, more like the lender's should be $508 and Owner's $1710


Can you send me the links you were using? I am going off the numbers that my attorney gave to me from her preferred title company. It makes sense intuitively that the lenders policy would be the higher premium since it is protecting a significantly larger $ investment against a title issue.

Try http://www.anytimeestimate.com/TITLE_INSURANCE/title-insurance.htm, specifically http://www.anytimeestimate.com/TITLE_INSURANCE/ct-title-insurance.htm. It's strange to me that the default simultaneous issue option shows a greater premium amount in the lender's portion, but when you price the policies individually, the opposite is true.

ETA: Actually, the breakdown under simultaneous issue is:
Owner's policy: $565.00
Lender's policy: $1710.00

Lender's only policy: $1710.00
Owner's only policy: $2275.00 (the sum of both policies)

Perhaps there's no such thing (at least for the calculator; I don't know if it's a bug in the program) as buying only an owner's policy.

ETA2: OK, from reading the OP more carefully and from http://www.bhhlegal.com/real_estate_insurance.aspx:

Connecticut Title Insurance

There are two basic types of title insurance policies, Owner’s Title Insurance and Lender’s (Mortgagee’s) Title Insurance.

Lender’s coverage is required in almost all transactions. Owner’s coverage is optional, although highly recommended.

The premium for Lender’s coverage is based upon the amount of the loan.

The premium for Owner’s coverage is based upon the purchase price.

If the borrower purchases an Owner’s policy, there is no charge for the Lender’s policy.


This is probably why PenFed doesn't show the breakdown between the owner's policy and the lender's policy. Yet from DianeCipa's prior post, apparently PenFed should show the breakdown, regardless if owner's title insurance is optional.

stook2001 said:   
Can you send me the links you were using? I am going off the numbers that my attorney gave to me from her preferred title company. It makes sense intuitively that the lenders policy would be the higher premium since it is protecting a significantly larger $ investment against a title issue.



looks like title wizard is for CA only, and the site referred to by glxpass contains the correct title info and premium for CT


glxpass, thanks for pointing out my error

bondo123 said:   stook2001 said:   
Can you send me the links you were using? I am going off the numbers that my attorney gave to me from her preferred title company. It makes sense intuitively that the lenders policy would be the higher premium since it is protecting a significantly larger $ investment against a title issue.




title wizard

That's just for California. CLTA = California Land Title Association. A Connecticut zip code I tried is considered invalid.

Very interesting link that you found under your ETA2 point. Thanks for finding that and posting. This seems to get to the bottom of the issue. Interesting, this is not how my own Attorney (in CT, obviously) quoted out the rates. However, it is very likely that this is the source of the confusion. My hope is that this is something that PenFed will acknowledge otherwise I will have to move to Plan B, which was SIS's idea of purchasing the Owner's add-on coverage immediately after the closing. Clearly, I will need to find out the feasibility of this option should PenFed refuse to breakup the pricing.

thanks again for your assistance.

glxpass said:   stook2001 said:   bondo123 said:   stook2001 said:   I did not include the Title service fee in the numbers previously described. That value is 860 and listed in box 4.

Purchase price is 725, loan is 580, state is CT.



i plugged your numbers in title wizard using couple cities in CT, the owner's policy can't be that cheap at $503, more like the lender's should be $508 and Owner's $1710


Can you send me the links you were using? I am going off the numbers that my attorney gave to me from her preferred title company. It makes sense intuitively that the lenders policy would be the higher premium since it is protecting a significantly larger $ investment against a title issue.

Try http://www.anytimeestimate.com/TITLE_INSURANCE/title-insurance.htm, specifically http://www.anytimeestimate.com/TITLE_INSURANCE/ct-title-insurance.htm. It's strange to me that the default simultaneous issue option shows a greater premium amount in the lender's portion, but when you price the policies individually, the opposite is true.

ETA: Actually, the breakdown under simultaneous issue is:
Owner's policy: $565.00
Lender's policy: $1710.00

Lender's only policy: $1710.00
Owner's only policy: $2275.00 (the sum of both policies)

Perhaps there's no such thing (at least for the calculator; I don't know if it's a bug in the program) as buying only an owner's policy.

ETA2: OK, from reading the OP more carefully and from http://www.bhhlegal.com/real_estate_insurance.aspx:

Connecticut Title Insurance

There are two basic types of title insurance policies, Owner’s Title Insurance and Lender’s (Mortgagee’s) Title Insurance.

Lender’s coverage is required in almost all transactions. Owner’s coverage is optional, although highly recommended.

The premium for Lender’s coverage is based upon the amount of the loan.

The premium for Owner’s coverage is based upon the purchase price.

If the borrower purchases an Owner’s policy, there is no charge for the Lender’s policy.


This is probably why PenFed doesn't show the breakdown between the owner's policy and the lender's policy. Yet from DianeCipa's prior post, apparently PenFed should show the breakdown, regardless if owner's title insurance is optional.

Just updating the thread to let everyone know that I have no update. My loan processor is not especially responsive - I sent 2 emails since Friday and left another voicemail today. Finally got a call back from a different processor just before the close of business. No contact from a manager despite request, etc. Hopefully there will be more progress tomorrow.

I am in the process as well and am anxious to hear your results. Did you contact the title insurance people to see if you could get your portion paid for after closing?

I have not yet had that call - as I said, that is my fallback plan. I am supposed to be getting contact information for the title insurance company today.

Daugenet, are you having the same issue as me? Sounds like you are. What state are you in?

I just wanted to chime in to say that I barely made the closing on my penfed loan. It was a refi, and not only are the reps barely responsive, but many are uneducated. Some are just plain overworked.

In my case (which is off topic), they waited until the last minute and didn't realize that he load I had previously was and FHA. This was a mistake that nearly cost me another months worth of interest.

In the end, they sorted it, but my God, it took dozens of phone calls over weeks and weeks without responses.

jmel said:   ...Some are just plain overworked...

This seems to be the case. I finally got a call to get the basic information on my refi- it only took them about 2 weeks to call me. The woman I spoke with did say they are overworked and are working nights and weekends to try and keep up with the demand. She also told me it will take the entire 90 days to close on my refi. Hopefully there aren't too many hiccups...

When I was going through my 5/5, the total amount of the title insurance policies (lender's and owner's) was on the owner's line. My processor did verify they would pay for their portion. When I got my HUD from PenFed's selected closing attorney, it was broken up. I called the closing attorney as well and had her go over it with me to be absolutely sure. Op, I would recommend you still talk to a manager to clean it up now, but if you get nowhere, keep you backup plan, but then contact the closing agent PenFed chooses. They should easily understand this and can make sure the HUD is ultimately correct.


Edit to add:
You can also ask you loan processor at PenFed who your closing processor is at PenFed Title (separate related party). That person is PenFed's contact for title stuff and that person is who contacts/contracts with a local attorney. Thus, they also are a good point of contact about this issue.

Thank you, this is good to know, re: your experience. A manager has taken over the issue and is investigating for me.

johnnybs said:   ... I finally got a call to get the basic information on my refi- it only took them about 2 weeks to call me. The woman I spoke with did say they are overworked and are working nights and weekends to try and keep up with the demand. She also told me it will take the entire 90 days to close on my refi. Hopefully there aren't too many hiccups...

Same situation here. They don't return any emails/phone calls (they only make them, don't take them).

I haven't had any hellish situations pop up with PenFed yet, but after reading other people's experiences... I'm expecting a craptacular experience with them.

slappycakes said:   johnnybs said:   ... I finally got a call to get the basic information on my refi- it only took them about 2 weeks to call me. The woman I spoke with did say they are overworked and are working nights and weekends to try and keep up with the demand. She also told me it will take the entire 90 days to close on my refi. Hopefully there aren't too many hiccups...

Same situation here. They don't return any emails/phone calls (they only make them, don't take them).

I haven't had any hellish situations pop up with PenFed yet, but after reading other people's experiences... I'm expecting a craptacular experience with them.


I'm by no means defending PenFed, as I've heard enough stories that I get that sometimes PenFed is a pain to work with. Thankfully, in general and on both my 5/5s (and I rate redux I did on the first one) PenFed has been a breeze to work with, emailed or called back within 24 hours (usually same day), emailed me confirmations when faxes and emails and such were received, then again after reviewed. I have thankfully not had a single issue with them (knock on wood)!

I count my lucky stars that I just got the right people every time I worked with them.

Btw, my refi took 39 days and my purchase like 26 or so.

Who would have thought this would be such a time consuming issue to resolve. In any event, just figured I would update my thread even though there is STILL no clear resolution.

This is the latest note from a manager at PenFed:
"I took your concern to the VP of our department for discussion. He
indicated to me that it is not uncommon to have varying charges on
these products depending on the area that the property is located in,
and the specific bundling of the products. In some areas there just
isn’t a lender’s fee if an owner’s policy is issued simultaneously.

ServiceLink is our provider for this coverage, and it is up to them to
determine what is customary in a particular location, and to set the
actual prices. The pricing for these services is not an area that Pen-
Fed has any influence or control over. The two charges would, how-
ever, be listed separately on the HUD so that it is clear how much each
product costs. Please advise on what you learn from your conversation with Service Link
so that we can determine if you have additional questions for PenFed,
and so that we can work on getting you a new GFE if needed for your
situation."

I subsequently reached out to ServiceLink and got this response:
"If you purchase an Owners Policy of title insurance, our fee for this is $2213.00, and the fee for a Simultaneous Issue of a Lender’s Policy is $0.00 If you only purchase a Lender’s Policy of title insurance, you will not receive the discount that we give for issuing both the Owners and Lenders policies together. The fee for the Lender’s policy only is $1710.00 So, there really is no “breakdown” to give because if you’re getting the Owners coverage, the fee for the lenders policy is $0.00 because we are giving you the Simultaneous Issue rate."

I now have a manager's contact information at ServiceLink and will escalate on Tuesday, I suppose. I have also inquired about purchasing the Owner's add on coverage from ServiceLink right after the closing. This whole thing should really not be that complicated and I am pretty baffled as to how it is that this doesn't come up constantly with ServiceLink/PenFed. I sort of hoped that PenFed would have given me a very clear cut answer. The real issue, however, seems to be with ServiceLink and how they generate their quotes.

Also, Cyclone, thanks for the tip on reaching out to PenFed's closing department. Oddly enough, I was contacted by someone from ServiceLink who's title is Closing Team Lead. I was trying to find out whether she was the one that generates the HUD-1 but did not get a clear answer on that. Ultimately, that seems to be the key - ie. how this is represented on the HUD-1. I can just see this turning into a sh*t storm at the closing so really trying to get a clear answer ASAP.

What an amazing amount of BS! They need to have you pay the $503 for the owners policy and be done with it... wow that has got to be frustrating. What bunch of clowns @ PenFed.

Yup - I have wasted an extraordinary amount of time with this already - easily more than $1700 worth of my time. What is additionally annoying to me is that PenFed's answer is sufficiently vague that it really doesnt address the issue.

We just used PenFed/ServiceLink to buy a house in February. PenFed was great...ServiceLink was simply incompetent. They made so many mistakes that we probably ended up with literally a dozen different versions of our GFE and HUD-1 due to corrections. Our processor at PenFed had to yell at her counterpart at ServiceLink several times just to keep things moving along. They also held up funding our closing by three full business days, which our agent said was something he had never even heard of. They just sat on the money for some unknown reason. Even our processor at PenFed couldn't get them to explain what the hell they were doing for those three days.

In any case, this sounds like some major BS. PenFed, at least in my experience, will work with you to get things done correctly. If ServiceLink doesn't list the component charges properly on your HUD-1, then I would just ask PenFed directly for a credit of what would have been the lender's policy charge. I'd be surprised if they don't give it to you.

Skipping 35 Messages...
Updating the above: HUD-1 came through with title insurance properly apportioned between owners and lenders portion, so either PenFed has updated their methodology or PenFed Title does not have the same issues that Servicelink did before (or I just got lucky and didnt have to fight to correct this. ?I hope others are getting the same results.



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