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natkra90, even if you stick with the Invado scam for now, please keep hanging around the forum. FWF will be here for you when you're ready to pick up the pieces.

BarryAndLevon said:   natkra90 said:   BarryAndLevon said:   natkra90: if you were wrong about Invado, how would you know? What would convince you to have second thoughts about this company?

My previous posts explain how I know. I put a lot of thought and research into it before I got started, so I'm pretty set in what I believe about the company. I would need some significant factual evidence about Invado to convince me this is a scam because I've already presented plenty that shows that it's not.


The world would be a better place if everybody had a good grasp of the contents of this particular entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


I said I put a lot of thought and research BEFORE I got started. I may be biased now, but I was not biased then. I have not ignored any factual evidence. If I found out it was a scam now, I'd cut my losses and leave, but so far there hasn't been any legit proof of that.

Confirmation bias works both ways. Whether you are a believer or a skeptic of something, your initial thought usually takes overwhelming proof to change your beliefs unless you force yourself to be sincerely open-minded. This is why most people will never find the truth in so many areas.

natkra90 said:   
SUCKISSTAPLES said:   
Check out the reader comments and full article . In them you will see:
1. The mintz have a tax lien on their home
1. Please provide a link or something that shows some real evidence of this. It is possible because it costs a lot to startup a company, but you will need to provide proof if you want people to believe you.

The link is right there in the reader comments, just as SUCKISSTAPLES said.

Here it is again, so you can see for yourself: link

Search by last name "Mintz" and you will find 5 entries for Damon Mintz (3 of which are liens), and 5 entries for Steven Mintz (3 of which are liens).

Not only is "Invado scam" # 1 in Google... but so is "LordBIntegratedNetworkBuzzwordInternationalNetworkMarketing"!

I want to get me some of that

is it possible/feasible/legal to post the background checks for Mintz, Andre Maronian, et al?
or any court/public records that show they are nothing but liars and cheats?

CrAsian said:   is it possible/feasible/legal to post the background checks for Mintz, Andre Maronian, et al?
or any court/public records that show they are nothing but liars and cheats?

Sure sign up for a PACER account and get all of the district and bankruptcy court info you want.

natkra90, you, like thousands others who hoped to make money on MLMs are going into this thinking that with a lot of hard work in selling their product, you could make some money, and with a lot of hard work recruiting other people who are as enthusiastic as you, you could make a lot of money. If you keep on doing what you're doing and your recruits keep on doing what you're doing, you could build a good downline (not sure if that's an actual term but it's the opposite of upline). But as you will soon find out, this will be all about recruiting people who'd be willing to pay the $500 fee. You will get a few friends and a few strangers to sign up but, like 90%+ of those who joined, your leads will soon dry out or you'll find out that your recruits won't be as enthusiastic as you are now and be non-performers. If you end up being in the upper 10% that makes money off this, then more power to you.

That is your picture right now but I'd like to show you the big picture. Ask yourself why these MLM "founders" have gone from one MLM to another. Was the product in the old MLM all of a sudden no good? Is there a difference between ACN energy and Invado energy? You'll find out that it's not about the "product". The well has gone dry and it's time to start a new MLM structure. The top of the pyramid moves to another organization and the thousand or so under them move with them because they've also made some money in the previous MLM. In short, it's a whole new $500 entry fee for everybody and a whole new set of commissions for those high enough in the pyramid. Majority (90%) of the non-earning recruits in the old MLM have been left behind. They're no longer needed because all they're good for is their $500 fee. It's time to get new recruits and get new commissions with this new company selling new (or rehashed) "products". Have you ever asked yourself what this "company" is really about? Is it to sell tablets? Is it about energy commission? Is it a discount travel site? Are they riding on the popularity of Groupon, Living Social, etc? There is no long-term vision. Products change. They'll try and re-invent everything they've previously done and see if something sticks. That's how you know that it's not about the product.

What you see is a legitimate way to make some money and, with a lot of hard work and "training", an opportunity to build a "sales network". What people here at Fatwallet are seeing is the big picture of large pyramid organizations moving from one company to another in hopes of generating a new set of commission from the new recruits, 90% oh which will never recoup the $500 fee they paid. That's why they're all screaming SCAM.

natkra90 said:   BarryAndLevon said:   natkra90: if you were wrong about Invado, how would you know? What would convince you to have second thoughts about this company?

My previous posts explain how I know. I put a lot of thought and research into it before I got started, so I'm pretty set in what I believe about the company. I would need some significant factual evidence about Invado to convince me this is a scam because I've already presented plenty that shows that it's not.

Did you read the news paper article i linked as well as the reader comments ? It doesn't seem like you did

It's one thing to be set in your beliefs, it's another to Just completely ignore the research posted for you

anthonyu said:   natkra90, you, like thousands others who hoped to make money on MLMs are going into this thinking that with a lot of hard work in selling their product, you could make some money, and with a lot of hard work recruiting other people who are as enthusiastic as you, you could make a lot of money. If you keep on doing what you're doing and your recruits keep on doing what you're doing, you could build a good downline (not sure if that's an actual term but it's the opposite of upline). But as you will soon find out, this will be all about recruiting people who'd be willing to pay the $500 fee. You will get a few friends and a few strangers to sign up but, like 90%+ of those who joined, your leads will soon dry out or you'll find out that your recruits won't be as enthusiastic as you are now and be non-performers. If you end up being in the upper 10% that makes money off this, then more power to you.

That is your picture right now but I'd like to show you the big picture. Ask yourself why these MLM "founders" have gone from one MLM to another. Was the product in the old MLM all of a sudden no good? Is there a difference between ACN energy and Invado energy? You'll find out that it's not about the "product". The well has gone dry and it's time to start a new MLM structure. The top of the pyramid moves to another organization and the thousand or so under them move with them because they've also made some money in the previous MLM. In short, it's a whole new $500 entry fee for everybody and a whole new set of commissions for those high enough in the pyramid. Majority (90%) of the non-earning recruits in the old MLM have been left behind. They're no longer needed because all they're good for is their $500 fee. It's time to get new recruits and get new commissions with this new company selling new (or rehashed) "products". Have you ever asked yourself what this "company" is really about? Is it to sell tablets? Is it about energy commission? Is it a discount travel site? Are they riding on the popularity of Groupon, Living Social, etc? There is no long-term vision. Products change. They'll try and re-invent everything they've previously done and see if something sticks. That's how you know that it's not about the product.

What you see is a legitimate way to make some money and, with a lot of hard work and "training", an opportunity to build a "sales network". What people here at Fatwallet are seeing is the big picture of large pyramid organizations moving from one company to another in hopes of generating a new set of commission from the new recruits, 90% oh which will never recoup the $500 fee they paid. That's why they're all screaming SCAM.


This should be copied into the quick summary of every MLM thread in FWF.

orthros said:   Not only is "Invado scam" # 1 in Google... but so is "LordBIntegratedNetworkBuzzwordInternationalNetworkMarketing"!

I want to get me some of that


Awwwwww Yea!

Natkra90 is going to be my first investor.

BarryAndLevon said:   Wow, this thread is now the #6 result on Google for a search for "Invado". Not "Invado scam", mind you, just "Invado". Good work everybody!

Hmmm, bumped down to the second page of results now. This interpipes search stuff perplexes me sometimes.

I wonder if the powers that be at Invado are reading this thread and doing damage control? I could have sworn that the guy running Invado had been mentioned here, but now I can't find any reference to him. Have posts been deleted, or am I just doing a poor job of searching?

BarryAndLevon said:   BarryAndLevon said:   Wow, this thread is now the #6 result on Google for a search for "Invado". Not "Invado scam", mind you, just "Invado". Good work everybody!

Hmmm, bumped down to the second page of results now. This interpipes search stuff perplexes me sometimes.

I wonder if the powers that be at Invado are reading this thread and doing damage control? I could have sworn that the guy running Invado had been mentioned here, but now I can't find any reference to him. Have posts been deleted, or am I just doing a poor job of searching?


poor job of searching, they're in previous posts on this page:
For future reference here are the names of those running Invado. All on the "co-founders" webpage at Invadoinc.com
Andre Maronian is Executive Vice President
President and CEO, Damon Mintz
Vice President of Field Training, Judd Mintz
Vice President, COO George Clayton
As Vice President of Field Development, Steven (Steve) Mintz
Vice President of Field Development, Chris Thompson

CrAsian said:   is it possible/feasible/legal to post the background checks for Mintz, Andre Maronian, et al?
or any court/public records that show they are nothing but liars and cheats?


swandown said:   natkra90 said:   
SUCKISSTAPLES said:   
Check out the reader comments and full article . In them you will see:
1. The mintz have a tax lien on their home
1. Please provide a link or something that shows some real evidence of this. It is possible because it costs a lot to startup a company, but you will need to provide proof if you want people to believe you.

The link is right there in the reader comments, just as SUCKISSTAPLES said.

Here it is again, so you can see for yourself: link

Search by last name "Mintz" and you will find 5 entries for Damon Mintz (3 of which are liens), and 5 entries for Steven Mintz (3 of which are liens).

Thanks imbatman! And wow, that's a lot of Mintzes.

Also, I'd like to add that Invado is a scam.

Invado scam.

Gotta get those Google rankings back up there!

BarryAndLevon said:   Thanks imbatman! And wow, that's a lot of Mintzes.

Also, I'd like to add that Invado is a scam.


They are all the same foundersas UCI.

I think Judd may have a peg leg. His picture is askew (looking at the pictures hanging on the wall in the background of each picture)

natkra90 said:   dukefanjohn said:   natkra90 said:    The deals on the travel club are unreal. We're talking stuff like a six day stay at Disney for $159.00. It's on the website right now. T

I didnt see that deal on the website. It just says "Coming Soon" on the travel page.


Sorry. Here's the direct link. It's only available to reps right now, so that's probably why they don't link it from the website. http://www.invadotravel.com/destination_vacations.asp

Well the flight portion of the vacation website uses cheapseats.com (which is free by the way to use)
The select a cruise portion of the website uses Cheapseats.com (which is free by the way to use)
The hotel part of the Invado scam www.invadotravel.com scam uses http://www.res99.com for its search results. Personally I think its the group search engine that Travelocity.com uses. Maybe they license it out to other to use? My main reason for thinking this as Travelocity is the number one hit when searching http://www.res99.com (which is free by the way to use)
The rental car portion of the website apparently uses http://go.travelpn.com which is again cheapseats.com (which is free by the way to use)

Now i request natkra90 please reply why would you ask people to BUY into this vacation website scam when the information is exactly the same but free on the internet ... ? How is that NOT a scam ?

res99 whois

Registrant:
Domain Administrator
Travelocity.com LP

owenscott said:   
Now i request natkra90 please reply why would you ask people to BUY into this vacation website scam when the information is exactly the same but free on the internet ... ? How is that NOT a scam ?


Perhaps CEO Damon Mintz could reply to the scam allegations? Natkra, maybe you can persuade him to drop in here for a visit?

BarryAndLevon said:   BarryAndLevon said:   Wow, this thread is now the #6 result on Google for a search for "Invado". Not "Invado scam", mind you, just "Invado". Good work everybody!

Hmmm, bumped down to the second page of results now. This interpipes search stuff perplexes me sometimes.

I wonder if the powers that be at Invado are reading this thread and doing damage control? I could have sworn that the guy running Invado had been mentioned here, but now I can't find any reference to him. Have posts been deleted, or am I just doing a poor job of searching?

Clearly, Google buys their power, travel and tablets from the Invado scam. That's the only possible explanation.

Wow this was brutal. I laughed my a$$ for a while reading this thread.

You know I went to school with someone that actually made it pretty high in one of the big MLMs(I guess he's probably at about 400 people underneath him, but still has to have a full time job because not even that many is enough to live off of). I was talking with him at one point and I was explaining to him why I my research on corporate structures, marketing, incentives, accounting, etc. basically rendered the whole MLM model a guaranteed inefficient business model. And he kind of just said lets agree to disagree about these things, but one interesting thing happened.

I said to him according to my research(I don't know of examples of this happening, but mathematically this just seems to be the case) it would seem to me that MLM's are prone to spontaneous 'crashes' in 'downlines' where a large number of people leave in a very short period of time. So there is the people that come on and pay, quickly exit, and lose what ever time and money was initially invested. And then there are the people that stick around and I said my math tells me that even among the group that sticks around you'll have periods where huge chunks of people under you just abandon the business. You want to know what he said back to me?

He said, "How did you know that?" He explained to me that he has experienced at least a couple of large crashes in his downline, but that he's high up enough that he's been able to replace more of them before another crash happens. Basically he admitted that there have been periods where about 40+ people all leave within a couple weeks. Now I just sat their baffled and I didn't have the heart to point out the obvious. What I was thinking was, "How could you in good conscience sell new people to enter this scheme when not only do you have tons of people pay in time and money and leave right away, but you have periods where a bunch of people gave it a good run and they all ditch making it clear that joining your scheme was a bad decision on their part?" Its at that moment that all of my research had been vindicated. Even successful people in MLMs are in the primary business of selling others into making horrible decisions with their time and money. The only way you can make it is if you can convince enough others to make a mistake and the others you bring on can only become successful if they do the same.

This is worse than being a snake oil salesmen that sells overpriced $hit to stupid customers and the reason being is because you are trading on others valuable time at substantially below minimum wage rates(at least in aggregate) or your using them for their initial and reoccurring costs of being in the MLM or your utilizing the structure to convince others to sell overpriced $hitty products to customers. Either way its one of the most morally depraved ways to make a living I've ever come across if you can actually make a living at it. And its a horribly stupid decision if you can't make a living at it.

And its because the idiots that get sucked in can't wrap their heads around the complexity of how to financially value these structures and what they mean for its participants that they come onto a FWF thread and defend this $hit.

The only other structures that exist in the world today that are even remotely like these exist in organized crime and they are imposed because the bosses who collect on their underlings misery can kill you if you attempt to engage in the same criminal enterprises without kicking up to the family/gang. How anybody would willingly sign up for a structure like this without being forced to so they can engage in a certain type of business(i.e. crime) just goes to show you how dumb and naive the people who join these MLMs are.

dshibb said:   I said to him according to my research(I don't know of examples of this happening, but mathematically this just seems to be the case) it would seem to me that MLM's are prone to spontaneous 'crashes' in 'downlines' where a large number of people leave in a very short period of time. So there is the people that come on and pay, quickly exit, and lose what ever time and money was initially invested. And then there are the people that stick around and I said my math tells me that even among the group that sticks around you'll have periods where huge chunks of people under you just abandon the business. You want to know what he said back to me?

So your saying that we now have a mathematical theorem that proves that there wasn't a sucker born every minute? Although, I admit that whenever I imagine the Invado scam I think of that movie Idiocracy.

SigX said:   dshibb said:   I said to him according to my research(I don't know of examples of this happening, but mathematically this just seems to be the case) it would seem to me that MLM's are prone to spontaneous 'crashes' in 'downlines' where a large number of people leave in a very short period of time. So there is the people that come on and pay, quickly exit, and lose what ever time and money was initially invested. And then there are the people that stick around and I said my math tells me that even among the group that sticks around you'll have periods where huge chunks of people under you just abandon the business. You want to know what he said back to me?

So your saying that we now have a mathematical theorem that proves that there wasn't a sucker born every minute? Although, I admit that whenever I imagine the Invado scam I think of that movie Idiocracy.


Here think about it once. Lets say you are someone that thinks he's off to a good start with like 4 people underneath you and all of sudden 3 of them ditch spontaneously(which does happen all of the time). You just spent months putting together what you felt was a solid team and are now frustrated and pissed. What are you going to do? Your going to ditch now too just because you lost your suckers. Guess what the people above you are likely watching a lot of their revenue dry up and they ditch as well. Then the whole situation just spirals out of control. With several more leaving a few days later and then a bunch more walking. The guy I know explained to me that this is the moment when the higher folks get into full gear and start hammering the phones of those that are even several levels above where collapse is happening so that they can do some damage control before the problem gets out of hand. So the 'mathematical theorem' isn't really a theorem its just the observation that the mathematical loss of revenue from losing a high proportion of your suckers at one time causes more people to leave which in turn cuts into a higher proportion of your superiors revenue as well encouraging them to leave.

This issue is the reason why you see creators of MLM's divide their 'downlines' into 2 separate lines for each person. The reason is that if a huge explosion happens on one side of your downline your other side will likely remain in tact(at least during this one explosion) that way the blow up doesn't go completely up the chain. Then after the explosion happens you end of focusing on rebuilding the side that blew up so that you aren't left with your pants down if the other side manages to blow up not long after. If both sides have an explosion too close together than congratulations the large pyramid of suckers you spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours building and collecting revenue off of has collapsed and your back to close to where you started from. Since the risk of blow ups are higher the lower you are the more likely you are to get screwed and walk off, but this 2 line structure usually keeps the really high up from ever taking a hit they can't handle.

Damon Mintz, hmm, that says he has more than 10 years of recruiting experience. Which is kind of funny, because Damon Mintz doesn't have close to that.
Damon Mintz also left his experience as CEO of "Utility Choice International" off his linkdin. Wonder why?

The Mintz clan.

/I live about 20 minutes from this scammer.

45 minute long Invado Business overview, by Damon Mintz Text

Hint: scam.

So in case anybody wants to explain exactly why an MLM structure is guaranteed to be inefficient here is why:

The 2 most common problems in the MLM structure
1) The real business is the start up and residual cost of being a 'franchisee' of theirs. For this type your dealing with a de facto pyramid scheme with a sly rationale to sucker people in. Most people that stay away from MLM's understand this one.

2) The other type has to do with the excessive inefficiency in multiple overriding. Basically, when you are spreading out comp over many levels of overrides you need to hand out a living to far to many people that aren't involved in the end sale. This excessive cost that typical sales businesses don't deal with means that a MLM has to find the money somehow to deal with this cost inefficiency. They can only realize it in 2 ways. 1 is to charge a higher than normal markup on the base cost of what they are selling or they have to rely on below market comp(commission) for what is being sold or both. The more levels that employed the worse it gets. So for a true MLM the levels are basically only limited by the laws of geometric expansion and so eventually this issue just blows up in their face. Some companies are close to an MLM like Kirby, Avon, Primerica, CutCo, etc. except they have capped out the MLM into just an excessive amount of levels, but not an ever growing list of levels so they aren't quite as bad, but you can still tell in pricing and comp that model is inefficient.

Lets give you a couple examples to make this clear. Term life insurance is a very commoditized business. Practically all the carriers are within ~20% of each other. Primerica has term insurance as a focus in their business. A price comparison of your typical term policy found on term4sale vs. Primerica should yield a 300% price difference on exactly the same contract. Think about that for a second 300%. It actually gets worse. To pay for this very expensive multiple override system Primerica employs, those contracts pay in commission to a new agent of theirs about 1/4th of your typical street comp percent at all the other carriers and about 1/6th of your typical combined comp(wholesale/1st tier override+street). Oh and apparently this huge extra cost to the customer actually comes with horrible customer service, numerous hassles, and horror stories when someone actually becomes a Primerica policyholder.

Now think about that once. How is it possible that a commodity could cost 300% more than market, pay in comp to the seller 75% less than market, and treat their customers like $hit, unless it was the MLM structure itself that producing the glaring inefficiency? A rough guess is that a small group of branches could write the same amount of death benefit of a single firm 1/10th its size in personnel(all barely making a living because the margins in the business are so thin) and the guy that managed all that could be making a few hundred grand purely based on the fact that they were screwing customers and convincing hires to be their b*tch at below market comp rates. Which just goes to show you how morally depraved that company is.

When looking at a company like Kirby the vacuum cleaners they sell are now sold at price around $2k a vacuum. You want to know how much they cost to get from the factory for the highest people in the totem poll? About $150. That is about $1900 of cost that is siphoned off by numerous levels of people collecting their share before they ever make it to the customer. If it was any other vacuum manufacturer my bet is that if factory cost was $150 the price at a store would likely be around $400(not including sales or anything else like that). That means that the MLM system is adding about 500% extra cost to the product than what a non MLM company would charge. That is unbelievable.

And all this continues to exist because people that sign up to work for an MLM are stupid and don't realize that even if they are joining so that they can one day be the guy that sits on top of hundreds of others collecting overrides that they would be getting to that position at the expense of many, many people along the way. Its only because they are too stupid to realize this that we don't call them crooks. But if they did realize this and decided to do it anyway then by God they would be among the worst type of crooks out there.

kamalktk said:   45 minute long Invado Business overview, by Damon Mintz Text

Hint: scam.


An average of $1.25 commission on every purchase a customer makes online and the guy has the balls to use a formula involving 50 initial customers referring you 15,000 other customers making purchases on your 'portal' and he actually called that a conservative estimate. LOL!!! I mean are you f*cking serious? Maybe if it I do 10 hours of work I'll have 10 million customers eh Damon?

dshibb said:   Wow this was brutal. I laughed my a$$ for a while reading this thread.
Either way its one of the most morally depraved ways to make a living I've ever come across if you can actually make a living at it. And its a horribly stupid decision if you can't make a living at it.


Welcome to the thread ...

World HQ!

The address came from the following, they hired a Ballah!. They're ballin' now!

Invado world hq is a 30 minute drive from my house. Maybe I'll take a drive this weekend and take some pics.

owenscott said:   dshibb said:   Wow this was brutal. I laughed my a$$ for a while reading this thread.
Either way its one of the most morally depraved ways to make a living I've ever come across if you can actually make a living at it. And its a horribly stupid decision if you can't make a living at it.


Welcome to the thread ...


Yeah thanks for mentioning it. This has been some quality entertainment.

natkra90 said:   3. Definitely not true. This is assuming you make little to no sales. That's why they require at least 8 points just to receive any money. I'll make a minimum of $10,000 a month in one year without recruiting anyone if I can average 2 gas accounts a week in my state.

OK, read this one sentence you wrote again. (Besides the fact that this won't be around in one year) do you really not understand how this is at best not sustainable? You registered on FW to defend this company, so you are now a member. We do like to help our members here. It does not appear that you are a shill for the company, just someone who unfortunately bought into it and are trying to "build your business". The sad thing is if you weren't here this thread probably would have died and would not be a top hit on Google. Now, when you go to recruit people who will invariably Google "Invado" (let's be honest, if they don't even do that, they're not going to make you any money), they're going to find this thread that you have helped fill with evidence that this is a SCAM. Will some people make the most money? Absolutely. Will you make some money? Most likely. Will most people make even some money? Absolutely not. SCAM.

kamalktk said:   World HQ!

The address came from the following, they hired a Ballah!. They're ballin' now!

Invado world hq is a 30 minute drive from my house. Maybe I'll take a drive this weekend and take some pics.


Where do they park the jet ?

kamalktk said:   45 minute long Invado Business overview, by Damon Mintz Text

Hint: scam.


Go to 28:30 and listen for 30 seconds. This guy basically draws the pyramid and then claims that it can go infinitely wide and deep. Classic.

enc0re said:   kamalktk said:   45 minute long Invado Business overview, by Damon Mintz Text

Hint: scam.


Go to 28:30 and listen for 30 seconds. This guy basically draws the pyramid and then claims that it can go infinitely wide and deep. Classic.


Text

BingBlangBlaow said:   enc0re said:   kamalktk said:   45 minute long Invado Business overview, by Damon Mintz Text

Hint: scam.


Go to 28:30 and listen for 30 seconds. This guy basically draws the pyramid and then claims that it can go infinitely wide and deep. Classic.


Text


Good stuff ... "you just earn more money on each certified rep who joins your business. Starting at $100 growing up to $390."
No no no ... this money is for training ... i read that from above somewhere.

anthonyu said:   natkra90, you, like thousands others who hoped to make money on MLMs are going into this thinking that with a lot of hard work in selling their product, you could make some money, and with a lot of hard work recruiting other people who are as enthusiastic as you, you could make a lot of money. If you keep on doing what you're doing and your recruits keep on doing what you're doing, you could build a good downline (not sure if that's an actual term but it's the opposite of upline). But as you will soon find out, this will be all about recruiting people who'd be willing to pay the $500 fee. You will get a few friends and a few strangers to sign up but, like 90%+ of those who joined, your leads will soon dry out or you'll find out that your recruits won't be as enthusiastic as you are now and be non-performers. If you end up being in the upper 10% that makes money off this, then more power to you.

That is your picture right now but I'd like to show you the big picture. Ask yourself why these MLM "founders" have gone from one MLM to another. Was the product in the old MLM all of a sudden no good? Is there a difference between ACN energy and Invado energy? You'll find out that it's not about the "product". The well has gone dry and it's time to start a new MLM structure. The top of the pyramid moves to another organization and the thousand or so under them move with them because they've also made some money in the previous MLM. In short, it's a whole new $500 entry fee for everybody and a whole new set of commissions for those high enough in the pyramid. Majority (90%) of the non-earning recruits in the old MLM have been left behind. They're no longer needed because all they're good for is their $500 fee. It's time to get new recruits and get new commissions with this new company selling new (or rehashed) "products". Have you ever asked yourself what this "company" is really about? Is it to sell tablets? Is it about energy commission? Is it a discount travel site? Are they riding on the popularity of Groupon, Living Social, etc? There is no long-term vision. Products change. They'll try and re-invent everything they've previously done and see if something sticks. That's how you know that it's not about the product.

What you see is a legitimate way to make some money and, with a lot of hard work and "training", an opportunity to build a "sales network". What people here at Fatwallet are seeing is the big picture of large pyramid organizations moving from one company to another in hopes of generating a new set of commission from the new recruits, 90% oh which will never recoup the $500 fee they paid. That's why they're all screaming SCAM.


You raised a lot of good points in this post. I'll try to address this as honestly and thoroughly as I can.

1. The people who are at the top of Invado testify to making a lot more money from sales than bonuses.

2. The reason why some left ACN is really complicated. I have a general idea of what happened, but there's a lot I don't know and I can't confirm what I think I know, so I'm not going to disclose that. All I can say is that many of the people who left ACN are grateful for the company, so they obviously didn't leave because they hated ACN.

3. Invado Energy is a self-owned company. ACN represents XOOM Energy and Planet Energy. Both companies combined do not offer gas or electric to as many states as Invado Energy. Here's a list of what I could put together of the states where Invado Energy offers gas or electric. I may have missed a state or two.

AK, CA, CO, CT, DC, DE, FL, GA, IL, IN, KY, MA, MD, ME, MI, OH, MI, NY, NJ, PA, RI, TX, VE, WE, Ontario

4. My mentor who was with ACN and is now with Invado has not recruited people from ACN. He is starting from the ground up like the rest of us. He was making 5 figures a month, and with Invado he started like us making 0 figures a month. He told me he didn't want to recruit people from ACN because some of the reps he was working with were being dishonest. As far as I know he doesn't have anything against ACN, but there were a few people doing things he doesn't want to associate with.

5. The founders left ACN before they ever intended to start their own MLM company. Again, I think I have a general idea of why, but I can't verify it, so I won't mention it. Their original intention was to find another MLM company that addressed some of the issues they saw in many MLM companies. When they could not find a MLM company that fit their criteria, they decided to start their own.

6. The products are not "rehashed" and no one is saying ACN is no good anymore. ACN still has a sellable product line. People sell ACN products every day. All companies adapt to keep up with changing markets. That's how you stay competitive. Just because a product may change doesn't mean that a company doesn't care about making sales. That's a very weak argument. Look at how much IBM has changed their product over the years. No one says they don't care about the product because they don't have a long-term goal.

7. Referdia is more than a copy of Groupon and Living Social. There are components of social networking integrated that make it a legit 2nd generation group-buying website. All businesses that sign up get a free store page that can be "favorited" by customers. Businesses can directly interact with their customers and customers to businesses through the site. Businesses can run any type of deal they want at any discounted rate they want unlike the current dominant group buying sites. The biggest thing that makes us the most competitive is the fact that we charge 20% commission on sales compared to 50% commission. It's only been up a little over two months, and we've already seen tons of businesses selling deals on Referdia, and the CTL above me has already seen Referdia money paid out on one of his recent checks. I'd be surprised if 0.01% of the businesses have even heard of us yet.

8. If the products don't sell, it would be so much easier for people just to work a regular job than start over with a new company. I've had a better start than some of the people who switched from other MLM companies. I find it hard to believe they would start from scratch for just training bonuses. Most of them would make more working a minimum wage job. The sales are where the money is at, and Invado doesn't have any sell to your warm market only policies. I get most of my sales cold-calling. I found that if I can actually present Referdia, about 25% of the companies sign up.

But what happens when you spend all your time and energy setting up businesses in referdia and getting businesses to switch their energy providers , then all of a sudden 90% of the people in this mlm abandon it , as had happened with all the others the leaders have been affiliated with? You lose all your commissions , downlines, residual income etc. You are banking on payments to come in the future. When in likely reality this business Won't even exist that long

dshibb said:   So in case anybody wants to explain exactly why an MLM structure is guaranteed to be inefficient here is why:

The 2 most common problems in the MLM structure
1) The real business is the start up and residual cost of being a 'franchisee' of theirs. For this type your dealing with a de facto pyramid scheme with a sly rationale to sucker people in. Most people that stay away from MLM's understand this one.

2) The other type has to do with the excessive inefficiency in multiple overriding. Basically, when you are spreading out comp over many levels of overrides you need to hand out a living to far to many people that aren't involved in the end sale. This excessive cost that typical sales businesses don't deal with means that a MLM has to find the money somehow to deal with this cost inefficiency. They can only realize it in 2 ways. 1 is to charge a higher than normal markup on the base cost of what they are selling or they have to rely on below market comp(commission) for what is being sold or both. The more levels that employed the worse it gets. So for a true MLM the levels are basically only limited by the laws of geometric expansion and so eventually this issue just blows up in their face. Some companies are close to an MLM like Kirby, Avon, Primerica, CutCo, etc. except they have capped out the MLM into just an excessive amount of levels, but not an ever growing list of levels so they aren't quite as bad, but you can still tell in pricing and comp that model is inefficient.

Lets give you a couple examples to make this clear. Term life insurance is a very commoditized business. Practically all the carriers are within ~20% of each other. Primerica has term insurance as a focus in their business. A price comparison of your typical term policy found on term4sale vs. Primerica should yield a 300% price difference on exactly the same contract. Think about that for a second 300%. It actually gets worse. To pay for this very expensive multiple override system Primerica employs, those contracts pay in commission to a new agent of theirs about 1/4th of your typical street comp percent at all the other carriers and about 1/6th of your typical combined comp(wholesale/1st tier override+street). Oh and apparently this huge extra cost to the customer actually comes with horrible customer service, numerous hassles, and horror stories when someone actually becomes a Primerica policyholder.

Now think about that once. How is it possible that a commodity could cost 300% more than market, pay in comp to the seller 75% less than market, and treat their customers like $hit, unless it was the MLM structure itself that producing the glaring inefficiency? A rough guess is that a small group of branches could write the same amount of death benefit of a single firm 1/10th its size in personnel(all barely making a living because the margins in the business are so thin) and the guy that managed all that could be making a few hundred grand purely based on the fact that they were screwing customers and convincing hires to be their b*tch at below market comp rates. Which just goes to show you how morally depraved that company is.

When looking at a company like Kirby the vacuum cleaners they sell are now sold at price around $2k a vacuum. You want to know how much they cost to get from the factory for the highest people in the totem poll? About $150. That is about $1900 of cost that is siphoned off by numerous levels of people collecting their share before they ever make it to the customer. If it was any other vacuum manufacturer my bet is that if factory cost was $150 the price at a store would likely be around $400(not including sales or anything else like that). That means that the MLM system is adding about 500% extra cost to the product than what a non MLM company would charge. That is unbelievable.
3
And all this continues to exist because people that sign up to work for an MLM are stupid and don't realize that even if they are joining so that they can one day be the guy that sits on top of hundreds of others collecting overrides that they would be getting to that position at the expense of many, many people along the way. Its only because they are too stupid to realize this that we don't call them crooks. But if they did realize this and decided to do it anyway then by God they would be among the worst type of crooks out there.


These are all legitimate issues with MLM. A lot of what is on this post is the very reason I did not join up with all the other MLM companies I've seen. The founders of Invado have done a very good job addressing these problems.

1. "The real business is the start up and residual cost of being a 'franchisee' of theirs."

I have already addressed this in a previous post. The time of the post was March 18, 2012 @ 9:04p. Please reference that.

2. Product markup

The products are NOT marked up from market price. This separates Invado from 95% of MLM companies out there. With Referdia, we actually charge less than half of Groupon and Living Social to run a deal.

3. "Excessive inefficiency in multiple overriding"

As a general rule with Invado, 50% of the commission value goes to the one making the sale and 50% goes to the upline. Traditional MLM companies pay out to your upline depending on how many levels of recruiting they are above you. Invado has created a completely different structure based on performance over recruiting through a point system. A certain amount of personal points and team points are required to move up any position. The higher the position, the greater percentage of the commission you get. This makes your overriding commission directly dependent on your performance in the company, and ensures that the people at the top are actually producing themselves.

Does anybody here have any thoughts on how long it will be before Invado CEO Damon Mintz et al leave this scam and move on to the next one?


BarryAndLevon said:   Does anybody here have any thoughts on how long it will be before Invado CEO Damon Mintz et al leave this scam and move on to the next one?
14 months



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