Bathroom remodeling in NYC - how to choose and get best price?

I'm thinking this might just be the investment opportunity he alluded to a while back when he talked about how big banks were ripping off savers with low interest on deposit accounts. And grex promised a higher rate, ostensibly because of more creative underlying investments.

A remodeled NYC co-op bathroom generating tolls from CL tirekickers would certainly constitute a creative investment.

The pieces of the plan are becoming much more clear. It's all fitting into place.

mikef07 said:   Jstic said:   vrovner said:   55sq. ft of tile for shower? That's an awfully small shower!

 

mikef07 said:   Just got 3 different estimates to redo 3 bathrooms.

Master around $14,000
Jack N Jill - Around $5000
Hall bath $4000

For Hall bath (which is probably similar to yours in size this included

Remove countertop, mirror, fixtures, tile on bath, light fixture

Install new granite countertop, retile with nice ceramic tile with an inset tile, new shower glass door 60" x 72", framed mirror, new sink fixture, new light fixture

mike07 also does not say where he is located or what kind of home he is remodeling. If he is living in the backwoods of Kentucky, those are prices don't really compare to doing a bathroom remodel in a high rise in NYC. Licensed plumbers & electricians in NYC and surrounding areas get $75-$100/hour for their labor. And the estimate for the hall bath is questionable, how do you charge for 20% of a dumpster cost?

As far as the OP, those like me who up until now had not responded to any of his threads in the past should take a look at his history, it may save some wasted time.


Located in Dallas , TX. As for the .2 for a dumpster it has to do with the calculation for cost purposes. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Not concerned about a conspiracy, don't jump to conclusions, it's an adult discussion. Bottom line is that no matter how its calculated, no one can rent .2 dumpster, so like I said, it is questionable. The dumpster will cost what it costs, not 20% of that cost, so to do an estimate like that is not realistic. If the contractor rents a 10 yard dumpster, it will cost about $300(based on local prices in the New England area), but his estimate tells him it will cost $60. Where do you think he will make up the missing $240? If he is bidding on all 3 jobs as a package and the estimate is worded that way, then it's a different story. But that should also be reflected in the individual price per bathroom in that those prices are discounted because of the volume of work. And being that your estimate is for work in Texas,which has one of the lowest paying trade labor rates in the country, it really shouldn't be compared to prices in a high rise in NYC, which has one of the highest labor rates. Very misleading.

Let me explain it to you in terms you might understand. "Dumpster on jobsite", is what is written on the estimate. Based on your pics, and what you describe, his disposal costs will far exceed 20% of a 10 yard dumpster. In my area, you cannot rent less than a 10 yard carton because smaller units are not built for construction debris. I don't care if he rents the dumpster, eats the debris, or digs a hole in your back yard and buries it, his costs will be much higher than what his estimate states, and the pricing is questionable. I've been in the construction/remodeling business for a long time. You would be absolutely stunned at how much dumpster space a small bathroom remodel can generate, regardless of what you may deduce from your photos or personal opinion.

Like I stated earlier, your post is very misleading in relation to the OP's thread.

Jstic said:   Let me explain it to you in terms you might understand. "Dumpster on jobsite", is what is written on the estimate. Based on your pics, and what you describe, his disposal costs will far exceed 20% of a 10 yard dumpster. In my area, you cannot rent less than a 10 yard carton because smaller units are not built for construction debris. I don't care if he rents the dumpster, eats the debris, or digs a hole in your back yard and buries it, his costs will be much higher than what his estimate states, and the pricing is questionable. I've been in the construction/remodeling business for a long time. You would be absolutely stunned at how much dumpster space a small bathroom remodel can generate, regardless of what you may deduce from your photos or personal opinion.

Like I stated earlier, your post is very misleading in relation to the OP's thread.

Once again I am concerned about overall costs. I don't care what he calls it or how he gets it off my premises. The fact that you can't get smaller than a 10 yard dumpster is irrelevant. You don't know that he can't, nor do you know that he can't just put it in the back of his truck and take it to a different site where he has a much larger job where there is....wait for it....a 10 yd dumpster. BTW we already had some other work done (a larger job) and it was not an issue and they did not have a 10 yard dumpster, nor was it left on site. Why don't you tell me what has already happened can't happen though? If we do all 3 bathrooms at once I am sure he will bring a 10 yard dumpster. If we do one only they likely will not and it costs what it costs. References have already been checked and we know multiple people who have used this company for both big and small projects and not one said they had issue with the "dumpster" portion. You have no clue about OPs situation. For all you know the guy doing the remodel has a brother who owns a dumpster company, but again please act like you know everything about everything. Our hall bath will run from $4000-$5000 period based on the materials we want to use.

People are dense especially the two ** that voted red for my post.

ETA: BTW when we quote in my line of work we also use ratios like .2, etc when it is impossible to actually use .2, but somehow we get it done. To use your quote "Bottom line is nobody can rent .2 of X that we provide." The point is the person who did the quote understands we might just have one bathroom done. Not an issue. Even if it runs him $300 (jnstead of $60) it is our option to do one if we choose and it is understood that no debris will be left on our premises post project. In other words I DON'T REALLY CARE IF THERE IS A DUMPSTER OR NOT. NO DEBRIS LEFT BEHIND IS WHAT I CARE ABOUT. If the contractor says we don't need a dumpster because the job is too small that is fine so long as he hauls the debris away.

BEEFjerKAY said:   mikef07 said:   People are dense especially the two ** that voted red for my post.

Possibly because it has nothing to do with OP's question? Nah.

Or as much to do with OP's question as the fact that I spend more time on the toilet on Saturday mornings? Perhaps.

Actually it does. My guess is that in NYC OPs bathroom is probably like my hall bath size - one sink, toilet, bath/shower combined. Cost for somewhat high end remodel should be similar to my quote. Will be some variance based on location, but at least OP can use my quote to see what it entails for a remodel.

It is a hell of a lot more relevant than some dude worrying the intricate details of how they are going to get debris removed from our property

mikef07 said:   please act like you know everything about everything.Talk about pot, kettle, black. This from FWF's resident medical know it all and you are telling Jstic about his business? Classic.

mikef07 said:   I am telling him about my business and my actual experience.Your business? As always you think everything is about you. This thread is about the OP getting work done in NYC, not Mike getting work done in Texas. So your knowledge on what is being discussed in the thread is limited at best.

But feel free to continue to drone on and on about how your bath remodel quote makes you an expert about bath remodeling everywhere.

tell me what I know about me and what has already happened can't happen.Yea, like when someone relates about their experiences with the medical industry and you tell them they don't know what they are talking about even though they are relating their actual experience. Like I said, classic.

Edit: Loved how you replied to my post and gave me red. I don't have to give your posts red though, in case you haven't noticed your posts naturally attract red. Ever wonder why?

Oh, and thanks for the well wishes by PM, its great to know how much you care.

grex23 said:   There is always going to be a slow contractor who is struggling for business Yes, that's the one I'd choose too....

In all fairness, it does matter what work is being done. Some "remodels" could be done adequately by a group of 6th graders as a class project. If the project is going to take one day, start to finish, $1k - not including materials - may actually be reasonable (although since most have quoted $5k to $13k, I'm thinking not).

It sounds more like OP watched a couple episodes of Flip This House, and doesnt realize the contractors let themselves get "beat up" on a quote because of the ongoing work/constant stream of projects, not for a one-time job.

@Glitch99, you are correct, a lot of it is simple straightforward work. I think part of the problem with the discussion here is that the OP didn't go into detail about what he was trying to accomplish for $1k. "Remodel" means different things to different people.

EvilCapitalist said:   mikef07 said:   
And so we end with my claim which is you can get a small bathroom in NYC done for around $4000-$5000? Are you claiming it is impossible to get a bathroom remodeled (basic) in NYC for $5000? Because in the end that is all I have said all along and is what my quote was showing. Understanding labor may be slightly more expensive in NYC, so you may have to go with a slightly lower grade material my claim is still a bathroom can be done to update it (basic things as were in my quote of re countering, re tiling, add a shower door, add a mirror, and a few fixtures) for around $5000Since you are sssllllllllooooooowwww let me repeat it for you.

No licensed and insured contractor would do any work in NYC coop for labor only at $1k (unless it is pre-pay). The key words in the previous statement are:

licensed
insured
nyc
coop
1k

Where did I say $1000? Will wait for answer. I said $4000-$5000. It is why I posted my quote. You can see how much material is needed and how much labor is needed approximately.

Slow would be the guy who can't read and that would be you

You know, Mike, as much as we're all impressed by your vast RE experience in many states and many cities, I think people are reacting much more negatively to your "tone" than to the content of your posts.

And sure the labor costs aren't double, but Jstic was just giving an off-the-cuff estimate. A guy with as much RE experience as you probably noted that the labor costs in NYC were higher by $50 an hour, which is no small change. At those costs, OP is expecting his remodel to take less than four hours, which (granted we don't know the full scope of work) seems unrealistic.

BTW, I love Southlake. Great city. I wish someone would widen the roads out to a lot of the subdevelopments north of Southlake Town Center, though, very narrow with steep drop-offs in many places.

Edit: Also, regarding whether or not it's realistic to get a job in NYC done for $4-5k, we both know that you certainly can, but without specifics regarding scope of work and quality expected, as well as requirements of the co-op and specific building, it's impossible to say exactly what you can get done for that amount of cash.

Jstic said:   @mike7, you like to put words into people mouths to try and bolster your argument. No where did I ever say that total costs were " double" in NYC than than in your area, I simply stated that labor costs are "probably" or "likely" double, read the posts again if you don't understand. Even by your own extremely generic statistics that you so proudly flaunt, the costs in NY STATE are 24% higher than Texas. Now add in the fact that you are in NEW YORK CITY and in a HIGH RISE BUILDING and that delta is much, much higher. You find very generic, mostly state specific stats about labor and construction costs, but fail to mention the specifics of the situation, all to support your argument. Like your original post where you failed to mention that your personal estimate was in Texas, probably in a single family 1-2 story residence, not a NYC high rise like the OP's situation. I will concede one point to you though, if those stats you link to are accurate, plumbers in Texas make more than I thought and I was wrong about stating NYC plumbers "likely or probably" make double that rate.

My wife read this thread and summed it up best when at the end she asked "Wasn't the reason the thread was started because the OP could not find any decent, legit contractors to do the work for his lowball price?" This is the last time I will waste my time responding to you. Trying to convince someone who obviously is not adult enough to be able to admit that he is wrong to any degree is an exercise in futility. You call people with dissenting opinions "morons, stooges, etc." and then get upset when they rate your condescending posts with red. With the exception of the labor rates in Texas, I stand by everything I said in this thread, and it is not based on generic regional internet stats, personal opinion, or questionable estimates from remodeling jobs in Texas. It is based on 20+ years of real world building/remodeling experience, including work in the New York City area, and multiple jobs in high rise commercial and residential buildings.

The problem I have is that you said a quote posted is completely irrelevant. The fact that you can't extrapolate any useful information out of it is pretty scary. I think we would both agree that the size of the bathrooms are probably pretty close. SO you can get a ton of info from a quote like mine.

1) The amount of labor needed
2) The amount of materials needed
3) Estimate of the cost of fixtures
4) Estimate of the cost of a shower door
5) Estimate of how much will be hauled away (The part where you pointed out that .2 dumpster does not exist)

The issue I have is one of your peers who is reputable (the company I use) in my area provided a quote and you have an issue of how he does his calculation. You then attack his way of doing business and say it can't be done even though he had already done jobs I am familiar with and quoted this very same way with no issue.

Furthermore I hate to break it to you, but if you are so involved and have done so many jobs WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST POST A QUOTE FOR THE MULTIPLE JOBS YOU HAVE DONE OVER 20 YEARS? Don't make up some bullshit how you couldn't do that or it could be binding. If you have done as many jobs as you say you could have easily posted hundreds of quotes for NYC co op bathrooms and shown OP a basic remodel, a total remodel, etc. I simply posted a quote so OP could have a chance to see what other professionals estimate for a bathroom remodel in my area. You somehow couldn't find any useful information and rather than post hundreds of quotes you simply attacked your peer on how he quoted me.

Finally you said labor costs were double and I stated they were not. Remember you pointed out how knowledgeable you were and how I knew nothing and in the end you were WRONG!!! BTW labor in Dallas is about the most expensive you can get in the TX area as NYC is the most expensive you can get in NY so my guess is that gap is even closer than those stats since I would absolutely agree that labor in EL Paso is significantly lower than in almost any area of NY which would bring the average down in TX.

ETA: The reason I call those people stooges is because they follow me around like stooges and red my comments instead of providing anything helpful. Typical internet stooges. If I am going to red someone I am likely going to post a response as to why I disagree, but then again I actually have some balls and at the very least I thank you for responding. You were the one who started the attacks with calling my quote questionable with the .2 dumpster remark and now you are pissed because I don't and won't back down. When I explained that the person would not bring .2 of a 10 yard dumpster and it was used for his quoting system you basically stated that it was impossible. Is not and was not.

EvilCapitalist said:   Mike, you need to read the thread.

OP wants to do work in a COOP building in NYC. OP does not want to bid out a job - he wants to low ball labor only. Absolutely nothing on your quote applies because anyone that does that kind of work compensates for low balling X by up-charging Y. A contractor may discount labor and make money on the materials. According to the OP the work includes electrical outlet. In NYC ( and in most of other places ) that means permits. In NYC that also means dealing with the city, which reduces the number of hours available on the work itself. He found someone on CL who supposedly would do the job for $1k.

Labor in Dallas is MUCH cheaper than the labor in NYC. Hiring a non-union labor for any work that requires permits in an NYC high-rise is virtually impossible as no building management company would want to have issues with the unions in future.

As for .2 dumpster, well, I'm sure you can also rent a .3 car.

First yes I have paid .3 for a rental or 1/3 of a rental so yes you can rent a car for 1/3 of the payment and/or day depending on how you structure both a contract and payment. SO my contractor will charge me 20% of what it costs him for a full dumpster. That is called basic math. Second I realize he couldn't just use any quote and apply it to his situation. What he can do is get an idea of tile costs, labor involved, how much tile, fixture costs, etc. based on my quote. If I were OP maybe I go out and buy the necessary materials and then show them how much material I am going to use (for example 80 sq ft of tile) and find a laborer. Personally i would use an unioned, insured, bonded, etc laborer and pull permits. To each his own. OP decided he wanted to go cheaper. OP may end up paying $2000 total (laborer and supplies) and do it on the cheap. I believe it will run from $4000-$5000 in NYC based on... wait for it... my quote. Labor will be more for sure, haul away may be slightly more, SO if I can get a total bathroom done for around $4000 it isn't unrealistic to expect OP can do it for around $5000 if he did it the "right" way. Rather than just post OP you can probably do it for around $5000 I posted a quote as a frame of reference with the understanding that it would not be perfect, but that you could extrapolate much information (not all information) from it.

The reason I posted my master bath quote is because someone back in the beginning said a bathroom would run from $10-$15K for a SFH. This lines up with a quote I got.

So once again IMO you can do a basic remodel in NYC for around $5000 or so. Are you (or anyone else) saying that it is impossible to do a basic remodel for this much?

For the record you are extremely naive if you think every single laborer in NYC is more expensive than every single laborer in Dallas. While on average they are more in NYC you can find situations where someone is Dallas would run you more than someone in NYC.

winter said:   mikef07 said:   For the record you are extremely naivePersonal attack
if you think every single laborer in NYC is more expensive than every single laborer in Dallas.Straw-man, no one (other than you) said this statement
While on average they are more in NYC you can find situations where someone is Dallas would run you more than someone in NYC.Irrelevant. I'm sure you could find someone charging more in any major city if you tried hard enough, a pointless statement to make.


Every thread I've seen you post in ends up with you fighting with one or more people. What's up with that?

Use some logic. They said labor is more expensive in NYC thus a quote from Dallas is cheaper than a quote would be in NYC. Not necessarily. Not if the guy in Dallas is charging significantly more than the average in Dallas and the guy in NYC is charging the average.

When people say dumb crap I call them out. You just said some dumb crap. The fact that you can't read the multiple times where every single person arguing said quote would be more in NYC than in Dallas it simply isn't the case every single time. Without knowing what my guy charges for labor it is possible (not likely) that you could find a quote in NYC less than the one I posted.

I realize I have to probably dumb it down for you so here are numbers. If the guy in Dallas charges $80/hr for labor and the guy in NYC charges $60hr then the Dallas quote would be more expensive.

BTW notice the dude who has done hundreds of jobs and has 20 years experience still hasn't posted the multiple quotes he should have. Typical of this board. All talk, no action just like you. Also I am not as myopic as 90% of the people here. Back as far as the first post I have ever made it was "That doesn't exist or that can't happen." What that showed me is that you can't do it or make it happen. Just like I can't or am not getting 5% on my savings account where multiple people called it a scam. Am and are.

Mike, you simply don't get it. NYC is a union city. In NYC you will pay union rate for anything that requires permits that is done in a coop or condominium buildings. It is because no NYC coop or condo buildings want to piss off unions today when they would need something from the unions 3 years from now.

Union rates are HIGHER than non-union rates. You are comparing Dallas non-union rates with NYC union rates. NYC union rates will always be more than Dallas non-union rates.

And no, you cannot buy a .2 dumpster regardless of how the contract is structured. You may get the usage of .2 dumpster but you are paying for the entire thing somewhere in your line items. OP has no line items to hide the costs in.

A quote of $30k means "I don't want this job." You aren't just hiring a robot to do a job, you're hiring a person, and they can reject you as a client as easily as you reject them as a contractor.

This is why you get multiple quotes

Good luck with the remodel, please post before and after pics and a description of your experience.

gludlow said:   A quote of $30k means "I don't want this job." You aren't just hiring a robot to do a job, you're hiring a person, and they can reject you as a client as easily as you reject them as a contractor.

This is why you get multiple quotes

Good luck with the remodel, please post before and after pics and a description of your experience.

I just picked someone randomly. But you are right, no one just takes the first bid. For his price I would do the bathroom for someone else. Who wouldn't. Guy seems like the type who wants one job so he can retire early or is so busy with highly profitable ventures that one job like mine isn't worth it for him.

The industry is super competitive, though it isn't hard for the best ones to make money if they keep costs down and provide continually good work and service.

A Manhattan contractor had emailed me which had a huge portfolio of bathrooms from expensive Manhattan properties including all marble designs. All high end and intricate detail work. They installed staircases and railings and were able to meet all the challenges required without missing a beat in all of its portfolio. Utterly impressive work. Something that actually stood out from the crowd.

One firm actually responded and seemed to think just showing face and saying he will give me a good price would matter. He posted a link of his portfolio and I did not like any of the work done in it. Seemed to think he was better than other contractors since he assumed somehow (with my ad being fully descriptive although there were some questions he legitimately could have asked which others did) knew better than all the other contractors who gave me quotes.

Contractors are free to charge whatever they want and I as a customer can accept or reject any price I want.

A: Someone offered $1000 for labor. B: I accepted. Next!