Failure to pay toll citation in TX, I live in PA, plus it's silly - any options?

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   This wasn't a failure to stop. It's still possible to stop if a traffic light is out.

It is impossible to pay a toll if there is no one at a manned booth

(btw typically it's illegal to back up on a toll road to get over to the next lane that's automated)

Its not for the OP its for the person i quoted, and others, if ever presented in a similar situation in NYS.

subieaggie said:   saladdin said:   Love8008s said:   rmhop said:   Love8008s said:   I live in TX. The cops here are awful, the minorities will say they are racist, but really they're just f'ing assholes. If you are not an important person (read donor or politician (celebrities don't usually count as they are Dems) then you are screwed.where r u in texas?

I've lived in 3 of the 4 major cities: Houston, Austin, San Antonio. I've visited Dallas a lot, but never lived there.

My wife got stopped once for going 32 in a 30 zone. The pig stopped a 5'0" woman with a crying baby in the backseat in our own neighborhood, called another cop car in and they both proceeded to perform an inspection on the car (in TX, each car needs an inspection every year). Our inspection was uptodate but I guess they were trying to get a ticket out of this. She ended up getting a warning but the experience was awful.

She broke the law by speeding. Tough sh*t.

To pull any motorist for going less than 10% over the posted speed limit is ridiculous.

There is a thing called uncertainty in the real world. Your car is not going exactly 30mph when your speedometer says it is going at 30mph, the radar may have been out of calibration, the cop could have operated it improperly, pointed it at the wrong car, etc.

I hope next time you drive 0.000001 mph over the limit, a cop will pull you over and hand you a ticket after a full drug search because you were technically breaking the law.

Thats why i tell people not to ever go above the speed limit thinking there is a "bumper zone" where its ok to speed a little. I tell them "My radar is sent out twice a year for accuracy when was the last time your speedometer was calibrated?"

As far as a "drug search" for speeding ... lol ... not me not in my state. Its not about what you hear when talking to the police its what they say. 'Nuff said.

PoodleMan said:   Most cops are crap.

Fixed that for you.

There is something about being a cop that makes normal people turn into gestapo aholes. And then there are people who were born gestapo aholes and just couldn't wait to join the police force.

saladdin said:   So it's ok to break the law just a little bit? I'll remember that when I see someone on the news arrested for jusssst a little bit of meth.
Actually, I live in Orange County Florida and I believe there is no fine for anything under 6 MPH over the speed limit.

ahhhhh yeah,,doesnt the guvment just do a fine job on everything they do....

Al3xK said:   jcaserta said:   The officer was obviously new, I didn't mention some of the things he said but it was clear to me that he was not experienced. For example when he asked for license and insurance I gave him my license, but told him that it's a rental car and asked if there should be some kind of insurance card or registration somewhere that I needed to find since I've never been stopped in a rental before. He started BSing in a manner that told me he obviously had no idea, and started implying that I could be written up for not having insurance, since I didn't buy insurance from hertz. Luckily I mentioned that my company agreement with Hertz gives me insurance even though I didn't check the box - which is true, but is obviously irrelevant, but it got him to stop going down that line of thinking.

This is laughable. Rental cars are covered under their umbrella policy. There's no way that thing is uninsured in some way. Your personal insurance covers it somewhat too, or at least it will get sued if you tear the car up. And if you used AMEX, I believe they provide some insurance.

There should have been a card in the glovebox that has a statement of financial responsibility. The legal requirement is PROOF of insurance that meets state guidelines. (like that card) How you settle in case of accident with the rental agency is a civil issue between you and the rental agency.

The rental company is required to provide whatever legal paperwork is required for the State the vehicle is REGISTERED IN. I used to travel and rent cars extensively. Somewhere (usually above the visor) is the paperwork required by the state of registry. If its NOT there then you have a legitimate issue with the agency. MOST police know that as soon as its a rental car that they don't need to worry about the insurance. At that point they will want to see proof that you rented the vehicle instead.

(funny story, in the early days of National's Emerald Club you never had any paperwork to cover this requirement... once had an officer almost arrest my boss because he couldn't prove we were legally permitted to drive the car)

PoodleMan said:   Some years ago, when I was in law school, I was visiting Lubbock, TX.

Lubbock is the armpit of Texas. Sorry you had to go there... No offense to any Texas Tech graduates.

jcaserta said:   
Perfect, thanks. I'm guessing this didn't happen to be in Texas? Your advice is very good and is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I talked to them and they said the ideal time to send the letter would be in 2 weeks when they have the citation so I'm going to go ahead and do that.

Well the thread has moved on way past this, but I just saw your reply so - no problem, happy to help. And actually yes this was in Texas, although it was a few years ago. Still, I'm confident that a polite letter to the judge (again, don't mention the police stuff) will get it thrown out to you.

subieaggie said:   PoodleMan said:   Some years ago, when I was in law school, I was visiting Lubbock, TX.

Lubbock is the armpit of Texas. Sorry you had to go there... No offense to any Texas Tech graduates.haha as College Station is any better

owenscott said:   Sorry for what happened and a lot of cops don't kow this in NY BUT ... it better be true if you claim it.
NYS V&T S 1117. said: Traffic-control signals; malfunction. Except when directed to
proceed by a police officer, every operator of a motor vehicle
approaching an intersection governed by a traffic-control signal which
is out of service or otherwise malfunctioning shall stop in the manner
required for stop signs set forth in section eleven hundred seventy-two
of this title, and proceed according to the rules of right of way for
vehicles set forth in article twenty-six of this title.

About three years ago, in NYS, my father was driving from the middle of town (exactly one block from the main police station coincidentally) to get home. The traffic signal at an intersection that is usually a fully-functional light was blinking red because there had been storms the previous night and the signal was using backup power. There was one vehicle, a dark SUV with tinted windows, at the intersection ahead of him. Both were turning left. The SUV sat there for over 90 seconds without moving, despite several breaks in traffic that would have provided ample opportunity to proceed safely. After a while, my father blared his horn at the driver of the SUV, who finally turned.

Then a few minutes later, on his way home, he turned off to enter a fast food parking lot, but did not stop to make any purchase. He proceeded through the parking lot at a reasonable speed and did nothing even remotely dangerous or illegal. Most likely, whoever was watching him lost sight of him as he drove around the back of the building. The argument we later made (on the night of the court date in the pre-trial meeting with the prosecutor) was that he entered the parking lot intending to make a purchase, but then changed his mind and proceeded to exit without stopping, but I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.

So anyway, he emerged from the fast food parking lot onto the same road from which he entered it, and proceeded home. It must be understood that there is a traffic light on the main road between the entrance and the exit of the fast food parking lot, but that only becomes relevant in a minute. Five days later, he received a pair of traffic tickets in the mail from the local town police, certified, return-receipt. The first was for failure to stop at a solid red light, and the second was for driving on private property to avoid obeying a traffic signal. The second ticket listed an incorrect model year for the vehicle. Neither ticket had the box checked that indicates, "Driver produced photo ID."

Based on experience and confirmed through several reliable sources, we concluded that it is HIGHLY UNUSUAL PROCEDURE for a police officer at any level of government in NYS to send traffic tickets in the mail without having pulled over the driver at the time of the incident, but technically, not illegal. If the officer had a good reason for it, such a ticket could potentially be considered as properly served and stand up in court, although any halfway decent judge should always approach such a case with extreme skepticism. However, this was our first defense argument. Since my father had no way of knowing at the time that he was being accused of a violation, he was not afforded the opportunity to immediately gather evidence to defend himself.

Next, we requested supporting depositions, which were provided in accordance with the requirements prescribed by law, so we couldn't get the tickets tossed on those grounds. The deposition for the first ticket clearly stated that the light was a solid red when it was not. The officer was either mistaken or lying. Third, we filed a request for discovery asking some basic questions, such as, "Why didn't the complainant officer stop the driver at the time of the alleged incidents?" "How did the complainant officer identify the driver of the vehicle?" "Since the first citation lists the accused's vehicle as a 1996 Toyota, but the second citation lists it as a 2006 Toyota, how could the complainant officer be certain that the same driver was in fact involved in both alleged incidents, or even that the same car was involved?" The town prosecutor ignored this request, so we sent another one with the same questions about a month later, which was also ignored. Four months after that, it went to court.

During those four months, we filed a FOIA request about any public reports of a malfunctioning traffic signal at that particular intersection on the date in question. That $10 filing fee paid a good return, since we were able to obtain a report from a different police officer in the same department who had reported the light as blinking three hours after the alleged violation. When we showed that FOIA report to the prosecutor at the pre-trial meeting (the mandatory one in which they try to strong-arm defendants into taking a plea and paying a fine rather than going to trial) he was taken totally off-guard. He had never seen anything like it before and asked where and how we got it. When told it was from a FOIA request, he immediately agreed to drop the first charge involving the left turn at the red light.

Then this POS prosecutor still wouldn't drop the second charge, which is based on a law that requires the arresting officer to read the mind of the accused. Intent to avoid the traffic light by driving on private property was never established, because the officer never spoke to my father! To add insult to injury, there were still many questions about how the officer had identified my father as the driver. At no point did my father have any contact with the arresting officer, since he wasn't pulled over on the day in question, and it was the town prosecutor, not the arresting officer, who we were dealing with in court.

So we have an arresting officer who can't tell the difference between a blinking red light and a solid one, can't correctly identify the vehicle, hasn't provided any information about how he supposedly identified the driver, and (through court papers alone) is purporting to be able to read the mind of a driver he hasn't sufficiently identified. Then we have a prosecutor who ignored multiple discovery requests for over four months each. In this context, the original abnormality of having the tickets sent in the mail makes the whole situation seem even more extremely ridiculous. There's no way any judge, even a crooked one, is going to let the second ticket stand.

But still, the idiot prosecutor wanted my father to plead the second ticket down to a parking violation with a $100 fine. We refused, and finally the prosecutor agreed to drop the second charge as well when he figured out he was about to get into a pissing contest in front of a judge and not just lose, but lose badly. So the prosecutor informed the clerk, and when the judge called up my father to tell us the court was recognizing the dismissal of both tickets, the judge said that, "in light of the overwhelming evidence of your innocence that you've provided," all charges are being dropped.

There was actually a lot more money riding than that $100 reduced fine, because a conviction of the original charge on the second ticket carried two points. My father had previously pleaded guilty to a four-point speeding ticket that was issued exactly 17 months prior to the date of the red light/fast food incidents. It still takes 11 points to get a license suspended, but NYS imposes heavy fines on any driver who accumulates six points in an 18-month period, based on offense dates, not conviction dates. But still, we refused to take the deal and got the whole thing dismissed entirely.

Moral of the story #1: The "justice system" in this country is anything but just.

Moral of the story #2: Fight the bastards and use every legal remedy you can find.

Moral of the story #3: Don't blare your horn at the bi*th wife of a cop who likes to abuse his authority, even if she deserves it. I can only speculate here, but I'm guessing the cop was off-duty in a personal vehicle with his family (probably with the wife driving) and that's why he didn't perform a routine traffic stop and serve the tickets in the usual manner on the side of the road. For all we know, he wasn't even there.

I hit two of those unmanned tolls in Houston. The first time, it was an exit from Hardy Toll Road to 249 (I Think?) and it was unmanned. It was two 'EZ Tags Only' which were plastered after I already made the exit. I stopped, and literally had hundreds of cars behind me within seconds honking and cussing (It was like 5PM on a weekday). It was impossible for me to turn around. I sat there a couple of minutes till the whole toll road was blocked and tried calling a phone number which was just an operator so I finally went through it. I never heard anything from it..

The other time was an exit near the airport; I exited, albeit a much less busy intersection, and the manned both was 'closed'. I eased through.

I was in my personal car and never heard anything from that... thats been probably 4-5 months ago...

troutmd said:   I hit two of those unmanned tolls in Houston. The first time, it was an exit from Hardy Toll Road to 249 (I Think?) and it was unmanned. It was two 'EZ Tags Only' which were plastered after I already made the exit. I stopped, and literally had hundreds of cars behind me within seconds honking and cussing (It was like 5PM on a weekday). It was impossible for me to turn around. I sat there a couple of minutes till the whole toll road was blocked and tried calling a phone number which was just an operator so I finally went through it. I never heard anything from it..

The other time was an exit near the airport; I exited, albeit a much less busy intersection, and the manned both was 'closed'. I eased through.

I was in my personal car and never heard anything from that... thats been probably 4-5 months ago...

They don't send you the violation letter until you hit your third violations, so you are okay for now.

BlueLetterD said:   I don't appreciate people coming to our wonderful state who blow off paying tolls and diss our cops. Nobody disrespects our cops but ourselves.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

I fail to see any solution rationale in your post.

germanpope said:   BitemeIamtoxic said:   BlueLetterD said:   I don't appreciate people coming to our wonderful state who blow off paying tolls and diss our cops. Nobody disrespects our cops but ourselves.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

I fail to see any solution rationale in your post.


reason is not a prerequisite to posting --- I think his post was meant to be read as self-deprecating sarcasm

Yeah. I made a funny, too.

Ya know, cops do that professional courtesy thing when they accidentally stop each other. Many a Texas law man paid tickets when visiting the California central coast, all because they didn't know how to respect others. Dang, too bad my brother is retired, now.

Or was that Georgia? Or both?

NEDeals said:   RedWolfe01 said:   
There should have been a card in the glovebox that has a statement of financial responsibility. The legal requirement is PROOF of insurance that meets state guidelines. (like that card)

Not necessarily, this depends on the state. For example, there is no such thing as an insurance / financial responsibility card in Massachusetts. If the car is registered with the state, it is required to have insurance, so the only document you need for the car is your registration.

For rented cars, the rental agreement usually takes place of all car documents. I always keep a rental agreement in the car until I return it, just for that reason--it is your proof that you have the car legally and someone else is responsible for its registration. Often I've found that the rental car doesn't even have registration papers in it.

As an aside, I've always wondered how the big rental places that have cars being driven across many states deal with keeping state registrations and inspections in order. Registrations can be easily dealt with I supposed, but inspections require the car to return to its registered state at a certain month...

Exactly. He did tell me to look for the documents, but there weren't any anywhere. I finally gave him the rental agreement and he went back to his car and that ended up being all he needed.

NEDeals said:   As an aside, I've always wondered how the big rental places that have cars being driven across many states deal with keeping state registrations and inspections in order. Registrations can be easily dealt with I supposed, but inspections require the car to return to its registered state at a certain month...

Typically, many inspections will be due at the same time the plate registration is due to expire. So I would guess they'd just let it expire and re-register the car and get it inspected in whatever state the car is in at the time. This won't work in every situation for every vehicle, but a lot of the time I bet this is exactly what they do.

jcaserta said:   martin628 said:   On every GPS is a route setting where you can plan your route to be without tolls. In a unfamiliar area, it's the best way to travel and avoid these hassles...

FYI the hertz neverlost has no such option, unless it's really well hidden. I tried to find it and I'm good with this kind of stuff. Actually right after this happened I tried to get to the hotel without touching the toll road, and I basically had to bumble around for an hour driving far away from it before the GPS finally picked a route not utilizing it.From the Hertz NeverLost GPS Review -- its a Magellan Roadmate 1430 and does include an option to avoid tolls...

RedWolfe01 said:   owenscott said:   subieaggie said:   saladdin said:   Love8008s said:   rmhop said:   Love8008s said:   I live in TX. The cops here are awful, the minorities will say they are racist, but really they're just f'ing assholes. If you are not an important person (read donor or politician (celebrities don't usually count as they are Dems) then you are screwed.where r u in texas?

I've lived in 3 of the 4 major cities: Houston, Austin, San Antonio. I've visited Dallas a lot, but never lived there.

My wife got stopped once for going 32 in a 30 zone. The pig stopped a 5'0" woman with a crying baby in the backseat in our own neighborhood, called another cop car in and they both proceeded to perform an inspection on the car (in TX, each car needs an inspection every year). Our inspection was uptodate but I guess they were trying to get a ticket out of this. She ended up getting a warning but the experience was awful.

She broke the law by speeding. Tough sh*t.

To pull any motorist for going less than 10% over the posted speed limit is ridiculous.

There is a thing called uncertainty in the real world. Your car is not going exactly 30mph when your speedometer says it is going at 30mph, the radar may have been out of calibration, the cop could have operated it improperly, pointed it at the wrong car, etc.

I hope next time you drive 0.000001 mph over the limit, a cop will pull you over and hand you a ticket after a full drug search because you were technically breaking the law.

Thats why i tell people not to ever go above the speed limit thinking there is a "bumper zone" where its ok to speed a little. I tell them "My radar is sent out twice a year for accuracy when was the last time your speedometer was calibrated?"

As far as a "drug search" for speeding ... lol ... not me not in my state. Its not about what you hear when talking to the police its what they say. 'Nuff said.

In my area they used to have to check their rarar units and speedometers daily with tuning forks. Not sure if they still do.

A lot of states DO make up reasons to stop drivers to do drug checks. (Texas, Arkansas, and Tennessee for certain do so) I have been pulled over several times in those states for a made up reason and asked "do you mind if we look in your car?" In TN they had a fairly large team included K9 marked (irony) unmarked cars. Once the guy I was with had swerved a bit, according to the officer, once I was pulled over for changing lanes too close to another car -- this car was a state trooper and I had to change lanes by LAW due to an emergency vehicle ahead with its lights on. (another trooper)

They never write tickets, that I know of. I used to have a decent sized team of installers working for me and I think all of them were pulled over at least once each in TN. White unmarked vehicles between Memphis and Nashville in a pack. Officers in polo shirts with cloth badges and "Drug task force" on them.

Arkansas does it with marked units, as does Texas.

EDIT: one other datapoint. By law, Texas courts are limited to a max fine of about $300 plus a small admin charge. About 315 is the most any municiple or County can access per violation.

Yes, cops absolutely make up reasons to pull people over to look for drugs. It happened to me in Minnesota. I was arriving in Minneapolis late one night, and a light snowstorm was starting up; it was very windy. I'm from the deep South, so I was getting nervous about driving in snow. I was pulled over, and the cop agreed that I was not speeding. He said I was swerving. I asked if I had crossed into other lanes, and he said no. So my offense apparently was swerving within a lane, which I didn't know was really possible. I was subsequently put through field sobriety tests (which I passed), then held in the back of the cop car while my friend was grilled on why he had an organic chemistry textbook and Tylenol in the glove compartment and the cop half-listened to his answers while shining a flashlight throughout the car, looking for any cause for a complete search.

dukerau said:   RedWolfe01 said:   owenscott said:   subieaggie said:   saladdin said:   Love8008s said:   rmhop said:   Love8008s said:   I live in TX. The cops here are awful, the minorities will say they are racist, but really they're just f'ing assholes. If you are not an important person (read donor or politician (celebrities don't usually count as they are Dems) then you are screwed.where r u in texas?

I've lived in 3 of the 4 major cities: Houston, Austin, San Antonio. I've visited Dallas a lot, but never lived there.

My wife got stopped once for going 32 in a 30 zone. The pig stopped a 5'0" woman with a crying baby in the backseat in our own neighborhood, called another cop car in and they both proceeded to perform an inspection on the car (in TX, each car needs an inspection every year). Our inspection was uptodate but I guess they were trying to get a ticket out of this. She ended up getting a warning but the experience was awful.

She broke the law by speeding. Tough sh*t.

To pull any motorist for going less than 10% over the posted speed limit is ridiculous.

There is a thing called uncertainty in the real world. Your car is not going exactly 30mph when your speedometer says it is going at 30mph, the radar may have been out of calibration, the cop could have operated it improperly, pointed it at the wrong car, etc.

I hope next time you drive 0.000001 mph over the limit, a cop will pull you over and hand you a ticket after a full drug search because you were technically breaking the law.

Thats why i tell people not to ever go above the speed limit thinking there is a "bumper zone" where its ok to speed a little. I tell them "My radar is sent out twice a year for accuracy when was the last time your speedometer was calibrated?"

As far as a "drug search" for speeding ... lol ... not me not in my state. Its not about what you hear when talking to the police its what they say. 'Nuff said.

In my area they used to have to check their rarar units and speedometers daily with tuning forks. Not sure if they still do.

A lot of states DO make up reasons to stop drivers to do drug checks. (Texas, Arkansas, and Tennessee for certain do so) I have been pulled over several times in those states for a made up reason and asked "do you mind if we look in your car?" In TN they had a fairly large team included K9 marked (irony) unmarked cars. Once the guy I was with had swerved a bit, according to the officer, once I was pulled over for changing lanes too close to another car -- this car was a state trooper and I had to change lanes by LAW due to an emergency vehicle ahead with its lights on. (another trooper)

They never write tickets, that I know of. I used to have a decent sized team of installers working for me and I think all of them were pulled over at least once each in TN. White unmarked vehicles between Memphis and Nashville in a pack. Officers in polo shirts with cloth badges and "Drug task force" on them.

Arkansas does it with marked units, as does Texas.

EDIT: one other datapoint. By law, Texas courts are limited to a max fine of about $300 plus a small admin charge. About 315 is the most any municiple or County can access per violation.

Yes, cops absolutely make up reasons to pull people over to look for drugs. It happened to me in Minnesota. I was arriving in Minneapolis late one night, and a light snowstorm was starting up; it was very windy. I'm from the deep South, so I was getting nervous about driving in snow. I was pulled over, and the cop agreed that I was not speeding. He said I was swerving. I asked if I had crossed into other lanes, and he said no. So my offense apparently was swerving within a lane, which I didn't know was really possible. I was subsequently put through field sobriety tests (which I passed), then held in the back of the cop car while my friend was grilled on why he had an organic chemistry textbook and Tylenol in the glove compartment and the cop half-listened to his answers while shining a flashlight throughout the car, looking for any cause for a complete search.

Yes drunks swerve in their own lanes too ... the cop had to deal with two subjects so he separated you both to do a quick investigation. Seems you were no worse for the wear. You'd be surprised how well this works to ferret out criminal behavior, drunk, drugged, driver and lots of other stuff. Inconvenience some sometimes but i expect you'll find case law shows its accepted police practice and acceptable to the courts.

Sounds like you need therapy for your PTSD....