TravelerMSY said: dhl said: chocula said: I am shocked by this thread. I cannot imagine how anyone could even consider this anything other than a criminal case.
Have the members been identified? Do we know if they are friends/relatives/golfing buddies with anyone that started this thread?
I wonder if things were a bit different and they found a way to manipulate your bank account or you personally and "exploited" a flaw you have or your small company has.... Would YOU consider it a civil matter?
I know the answer, if it was you that got ripped off you would demand criminal charges AND restitution AND all of the money back.
I am very surprised at this thread. Any chance you could include some additional lets that say the guys should get the full 20 years? Just wondering if anyone got jail time for the robosigning foreclosures aka outright fraud? No? Didn't that involve trillions of dollars? Didn't they robo sign several thousand documents? If I recall these corps got slaps on the wrist, a few billion, but no criminal prosecution. It's almost like the govt didn't look at it as a criminal offense and just asked for restitution with a little extra for pain and suffering of those who got wrongly foreclosed on.
Wouldn't the element of intent to defraud be missing from the robo-signers? And if I'm not correct, wasn't there not a single case of a borrower who's case was signed automatically that wasn't actually in default on their mortgage?
The law that controls is one from about 1996. I got a member of the Republic of Texas Militia acquitted for filing a bogus deed of trust on property owned by Judge Mary Lou Robinson in Amarillo. Intent is no longer required just a materially false document filed of record. For federal charges to apply,it must be part of a securities pool(mortgage backed security), or VA/FHA insured or belong to Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae, or a federal judicial officer.
I know several of the attorneys who did the local work on those foreclosures and they are sweating bullets even though they didn't know about the robosigning. The big plus for them and why the AUSA won't prosecute is that their role was so minimal that the guidelines take the matter below level 6 on the charts. I am not sure whether or not Congress authorized by passing the local deed records in Gramm Leach Bliley or not that would make abig difference in criminal liability for the robosigning law firms. I am now retired except for handling the odd appeal where district court counsel is not yet licensed in the 5th Circuit.
nsdp
Dismembered Member
posted: Apr. 12, 2012 @ 11:16p
jetsfan92588 said: nsdp said: The US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit which has final say other than the Supreme Court on tax matters says you must take physical delivery of the goods to qualify for the reduction in cost basis and you must have a positive basis remaining in the goods or you have been given a taxable gift rather than a reduction in the cost basis. That was settled back in the late 1960's in one of the auto rebate cases.
Was that case enough on point to specify how the "gifts" were taxed? I'm not familiar enough with estate/gift tax law, but if these are gifts, presumably the tax owed should be the responsibility of the payor. Certainly they can't be charged with tax evasion if the underlying taxes are never assessed on them. Or is it their responsibility to pay the taxes because they are operating this scheme with a profit motive?
Section 7201 places primary responsibility on the tax payer. If IRS comes in and levies an assessment it is too late to say"whoops excuse me I forgot something". You at best are going to be hit with a25% negligence penalty and interest. If it looks like an organized scheme like the Mint deal you may face criminal prosecution. No criminal if you self report(file 1040X) before IRS finds out.
As to taxation see TravelerMSY 's correction on Libutti vs Commissioner. He has it correctly now.
mehrag
New Member
posted: Apr. 12, 2012 @ 11:28p
Only 30 months in jail....put these b* for 30 years in jail. Committing fraud and keeping system expensive for everybody. They should be thrown out of here and spend rest of their lives in Guantanemo Bay.
jetsfan92588
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Apr. 12, 2012 @ 11:33p
nsdp said: Yes the plea agreement which must be in writing spells out all the charges for the episode in question. If it is not included it is waived by the government. Had a woman who ran a safe house for illegal immigrants and plead to that . AUSA had to explain to the Judge that the government was waiving money laundering and tax charges as those were omitted to conceal the level of cooperation with ICE. She could have been subject to retaliation if everything was in the indictment(public document) and sentencing report.
If they committed tax evasion and that was the reason they plead guilty to fraud, would there be any reference to tax evasion or CID in any public document? In other words, is there any way for us to know whether or not they may have been charged with tax evasion?
ebestbuy
Senior Member
posted: Apr. 12, 2012 @ 11:41p
SUCKISSTAPLES said: germanpope said: I have to say the collective knowledge here is pretty good when the smart ones decide to come out of the woods at the same time. If there were members in peril that had a half way sympathetic situation, then there might be more of a rally to assist.
At this point, my guess is the collective will is not with these two. But since what they did is what a lot here might do --- just x1000 taken to the level of grand infamy, I can understand some faithful feeling a need to be supportive.
To be clear, I dont think these guys are saints. I think ordering items online, then claiming you didnt receive them to get a refund, multiple times, is pretty low and understand why there is little sympathy for these guys. If they got charged for that refund fraud, you wouldnt see this thread here.
What they were charged with, however, is very different. Many people have posted in this and the other thread about receiving CashBack on canceled orders. Its safe to assume other FW members also did this repeatedly, with other merchants, if not to the same extent as these brothers. When it comes to payment of CB, large or small $$, you cant escape the fact that it is an error of FW/Nordstroms, and it is solely within their control, and is up to the merchants to credit or not credit CB properly. The consumer has no control of that end of the transaction. We dont control when it goes from pending to approved. The whole "pending to approved" delay is specifically to allow for orders to be confirmed by the merchant as finalized and eligible for CB payment!
if theres an error discovered, no one is saying you get to keep the windfall, but you shouldnt go to jail over it. There have been numerous threads posted in this forum about someone who got $10,000 or $50,000 too much from their bank. Our standard recommendation is dont spend it, and be ready to give it back when asked. But you dont have to do the banks accounting for them, or alert them to the error. You arent their paid technical consultant. when there is an error like this, a reasonable company makes a demand for the money back , they dont call the FBI.
Now if there was a line in the charging document about how "Nordstroms discovered the error and made a demand on the Chius to turn over the funds received in error, and they refused", then the story would be completely different.
But there is something wrong with our government, and big business, when a corporation can make an error, then get the FBI to raid your home and seize your assets so you cant even afford defense counsel.
100% agree with SUCKISSTAPLES.. took 2 hrs to read this thread... I am surprised to see some people think the brother should be punished. In that case all most all Fatwallers should be punished. why because, 99% of the people on FW use coupon codes that are not intended for there use and it was sent to some one else. People buy coupons on eBay/ejunkie and use them even though in first case those should not be sold nor should be purchased. How many people have fake emails just to get coupons and rebates even though it states only one rebate per person per household... moral is, what we do is a small scale "fraud" and you guys think its OK and acceptable, but the brothers did in big scale so its not OK !! I am so concerned that if the judge gives any jail time, i am going to stop using FW and all coupons, since i think some day we all will be in trouble even for 10$. These big companies pay so much for bullshit things and did not even has good software engineer to fix a small bug. Shame on Nordstrom/FW that it told FBI instead just request refund. If I am the judge i would have not punished the brothers, and fined Nordstroms and FW for getting this to FBI wasting lot of federal govt and the court time, instead should have just asked the brother's and FW to return the money. Comming years will be hard on FW and the CashBack deals !!
Kuhawkdave
Member
posted: Apr. 12, 2012 @ 11:55p
Can't believe anyone would stake their professional reputations to a letter writing campaign for these 2. I love a good deal and loophole as much as the next FW guy, but there's a definite line when it comes to abusing poor retailer/bank promotions and outright breaking them.
germanpope
Graceful Member
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 12:19a
Kuhawkdave said: Can't believe anyone would stake their professional reputations to a letter writing campaign for these 2. I love a good deal and loophole as much as the next FW guy, but there's a definite line when it comes to abusing poor retailer/bank promotions and outright breaking them.
I don't agree with OP on this one. But I am also not going to knock him. I respect those that are willing to stand up for the rights of the accused against the government. The brothers in this scheme took things way to far. There are consequences. At the same time, if people want to support them to show those consequences should be mitigated. Have at it.
Why the heck didn't they pay the taxes?? Shouldn't they have been audited already, with all that cash going into their accounts and no tax returns?
JorgeBurrito
Category IV Economic Depression
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 12:44a
JohnGalt69 said: Why the heck didn't they pay the taxes??
Probably because you wouldn't want to draw the IRS's attention to a bunch of money that you got by at best extremely legally questionable means and more likely outright fraudulent means?
dshibb
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 1:07a
chocula said: I am shocked by this thread. I cannot imagine how anyone could even consider this anything other than a criminal case.
Have the members been identified? Do we know if they are friends/relatives/golfing buddies with anyone that started this thread?
I wonder if things were a bit different and they found a way to manipulate your bank account or you personally and "exploited" a flaw you have or your small company has.... Would YOU consider it a civil matter?
I know the answer, if it was you that got ripped off you would demand criminal charges AND restitution AND all of the money back.
I am very surprised at this thread. Any chance you could include some additional letters that say the guys should get the full 20 years?
dshibb said: Look guys any and all analogies that include: -Creating a device, program, etc. to *cause* a flaw in a system for profit -Hacking into a secure system for profit -Taking money from vaults, cash registers, wallets, or other depositories of money because they are left open -In any way trespassing over any property to take someones money -Creating a program, mailer, presentation, etc. where you encourage others to make mistakes for your profit -Creating forged documents for profit -Or any scheme that involves providing deliberately false information that is material to the situation including: identity, income, assets, financial statements, business activities, etc.
Than you should probably stop right now because it only reflects badly on your knowledge of the case. Not a single thing listed above is any way pertinent to the case at hand. There have provided numerous analogies(and 1 almost exact match) that prove to be at least close to the case at hand. So from now on if you use one of the analogies provided in this list you might as well just hold up a sign saying that you're ignorant to the case.
JorgeBurrito
Category IV Economic Depression
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 2:06a
dshibb said:
]Look guys any and all analogies that include: -Creating a device, program, etc. to *cause* a flaw in a system for profit -Hacking into a secure system for profit -Taking money from vaults, cash registers, wallets, or other depositories of money because they are left open -In any way trespassing over any property to take someones money -Creating a program, mailer, presentation, etc. where you encourage others to make mistakes for your profit -Creating forged documents for profit -Or any scheme that involves providing deliberately false information that is material to the situation including: identity, income, assets, financial statements, business activities, etc.
Than you should probably stop right now because it only reflects badly on your knowledge of the case. Not a single thing listed above is any way pertinent to the case at hand. There have provided numerous analogies(and 1 almost exact match) that prove to be at least close to the case at hand. So from now on if you use one of the analogies provided in this list you might as well just hold up a sign saying that you're ignorant to the case.
Seriously people, the analogy master has spoken up, you better listen. He and he alone is the only one capable of telling you if you have a valid analogy, so pay your dues and show some respect yo.
By the way I do find it interesting you gave green to the Cadbury egg thread, apparently that is one of those OK analogies huh?
germanpope
Graceful Member
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 2:10a
this thread still hasn't beat the "save the cat" thread on the list of all time greats
dshibb
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 2:18a
JorgeBurrito said: dshibb said:
]Look guys any and all analogies that include: -Creating a device, program, etc. to *cause* a flaw in a system for profit -Hacking into a secure system for profit -Taking money from vaults, cash registers, wallets, or other depositories of money because they are left open -In any way trespassing over any property to take someones money -Creating a program, mailer, presentation, etc. where you encourage others to make mistakes for your profit -Creating forged documents for profit -Or any scheme that involves providing deliberately false information that is material to the situation including: identity, income, assets, financial statements, business activities, etc.
Than you should probably stop right now because it only reflects badly on your knowledge of the case. Not a single thing listed above is any way pertinent to the case at hand. There have provided numerous analogies(and 1 almost exact match) that prove to be at least close to the case at hand. So from now on if you use one of the analogies provided in this list you might as well just hold up a sign saying that you're ignorant to the case.
Seriously people, the analogy master has spoken up, you better listen. He and he alone is the only one capable of telling you if you have a valid analogy, so pay your dues and show some respect yo.
By the way I do find it interesting you gave green to the Cadbury egg thread, apparently that is one of those OK analogies huh?
I guess you would much prefer if obvious common sense didn't get in the way of some of your ignorant comments.
The Cadbury thread was an obvious joke making fun of both of these threads. I guess not only do you not have common sense, but you also don't have a sense of humor then either?
JorgeBurrito
Category IV Economic Depression
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 2:40a
dshibb said: JorgeBurrito said: dshibb said:
]Look guys any and all analogies that include: -Creating a device, program, etc. to *cause* a flaw in a system for profit -Hacking into a secure system for profit -Taking money from vaults, cash registers, wallets, or other depositories of money because they are left open -In any way trespassing over any property to take someones money -Creating a program, mailer, presentation, etc. where you encourage others to make mistakes for your profit -Creating forged documents for profit -Or any scheme that involves providing deliberately false information that is material to the situation including: identity, income, assets, financial statements, business activities, etc.
Than you should probably stop right now because it only reflects badly on your knowledge of the case. Not a single thing listed above is any way pertinent to the case at hand. There have provided numerous analogies(and 1 almost exact match) that prove to be at least close to the case at hand. So from now on if you use one of the analogies provided in this list you might as well just hold up a sign saying that you're ignorant to the case.
Seriously people, the analogy master has spoken up, you better listen. He and he alone is the only one capable of telling you if you have a valid analogy, so pay your dues and show some respect yo.
By the way I do find it interesting you gave green to the Cadbury egg thread, apparently that is one of those OK analogies huh?
I guess you would much prefer if obvious common sense didn't get in the way of some of your ignorant comments.
The Cadbury thread was an obvious joke making fun of both of these threads. I guess not only do you not have common sense, but you also don't have a sense of humor then either?
That's just it, you are saying that your opinion is the only one based in common sense and only the analogies that you see as OK (which I am sure are the only ones that support your opinion) are valid. Myself and many others (including several lawyers) disagree with your opinions, so clearly it is not common sense. Feel free and sit there and call my ignorant all you want though, I know some people struggle to have intellectual based arguments and have to resort to attempting to degrade their opposition.
As far as the egg thread, I guess when this sentence is in the OP "I'm quite serious and am not asking these questions rhetorically. I really don't know the answer" I usually take it to mean the OP is not joking.
]Look guys any and all analogies that include: -Creating a device, program, etc. to *cause* a flaw in a system for profit -Hacking into a secure system for profit -Taking money from vaults, cash registers, wallets, or other depositories of money because they are left open -In any way trespassing over any property to take someones money -Creating a program, mailer, presentation, etc. where you encourage others to make mistakes for your profit -Creating forged documents for profit -Or any scheme that involves providing deliberately false information that is material to the situation including: identity, income, assets, financial statements, business activities, etc.
Than you should probably stop right now because it only reflects badly on your knowledge of the case. Not a single thing listed above is any way pertinent to the case at hand. There have provided numerous analogies(and 1 almost exact match) that prove to be at least close to the case at hand. So from now on if you use one of the analogies provided in this list you might as well just hold up a sign saying that you're ignorant to the case.
Seriously people, the analogy master has spoken up, you better listen. He and he alone is the only one capable of telling you if you have a valid analogy, so pay your dues and show some respect yo.
By the way I do find it interesting you gave green to the Cadbury egg thread, apparently that is one of those OK analogies huh?
I guess you would much prefer if obvious common sense didn't get in the way of some of your ignorant comments.
The Cadbury thread was an obvious joke making fun of both of these threads. I guess not only do you not have common sense, but you also don't have a sense of humor then either?
That's just it, you are saying that your opinion is the only one based in common sense and only the analogies that you see as OK (which I am sure are the only ones that support your opinion) are valid. Myself and many others (including several lawyers) disagree with your opinions, so clearly it is not common sense. Feel free and sit there and call my ignorant all you want though, I know some people struggle to have intellectual based arguments and have to resort to attempting to degrade their opposition.
As far as the egg thread, I guess when this sentence is in the OP "I'm quite serious and am not asking these questions rhetorically. I really don't know the answer" I usually take it to mean the OP is not joking.
Jorge its obvious that the analogies provided in the list are extremely different. You can argue all you want that its my opinion that a semi and a ball are different things, but that only just reflects poorly on you.
Actually most of the lawyers on here are saying that the criminal element is a bit of stretch(with some saying that it doesn't fit and some saying that it barely fits) and that the civil case would be a slam dunk. None of those attorneys are claiming that is pure theft equal to the same as robbing someone(like cracking open the bank vault) as you have claimed on here. You are the most out there person on this thread. And actually there is nothing intellectual about anything you have posted on this thread. Its just the same statement regurgitated over and over without any analysis or detail. So excuse me while I laugh at your attempt to deflect.
I still saw that as a joke and maybe I was just influenced by the fact that the rest of the thread is one joke after another.
BitemeIamtoxic
Non-toxic
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 4:14a
Let's recap, the FW and ND systems didn't mesh completely and these brothers exploited the communication failure.
Did they do it for the money? I think they were amazed at how much they could jiggle out of their little mother lode crack in the system.
They still had the money and were enjoying sticking it to the suits that had ended their earlier wash, rinse, repeat money maker. What's not to smile at. I just think they kept going until they got caught, probably getting more and more blatant.
The argument, In my opinion, is that it's perfectly fine to suck off 'the system' as long as you don't deep stroke the system.
Youse guys are just debating at what point does sucking off the system become deep stroking the system?
Obviously, The Feds terrorized these poor scoundrels into a plea bargain not congruent with the deepness of their stroking. That's gotta be a violation of a Homeland Security no-no.
Have I glossed over any important fine points?
NOW, the Feds are paying attention. Please notice that FW knows the drill. How many members have declared the income allegated in numerous posts?
I can see the subpoenae blizzard in Beloit as I curmudge.
Now I gotta see 'Office Space'.
DirkDIggler
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 5:15a
they should also get their sentenced reduce by half for being lame and putting the money into retirement accounts instead of H&B
mikef07
Senior Member - 4K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 6:48a
HYPOCRICY!!
I'll say two things:
1) If I started a business where I bilked FWF posters out of $140 (let alone $1.4M) people supporting these two brothers would be calling for my head and saying I should go to jail.
2) These very same posters backing the brothers I have seen multiple times calling legal MLM businesses scams saying the people running them should be thrown in jail for what they do. You are a hypocrite if you ever do that again.
Hypocrites.
dshibb
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:02a
mikef07 said: HYPOCRICY!!
I'll say two things:
1) If I started a business where I bilked FWF posters out of $140 (let alone $1.4M) people supporting these two brothers would be calling for my head and saying I should go to jail.
2) These very same posters backing the brothers I have seen multiple times calling legal MLM businesses scams saying the people running them should be thrown in jail for what they do. You are a hypocrite if you ever do that again.
Hypocrites.
There is a huge difference between creating a scam and inducing others to make mistakes by investing time/money into it vs. taking advantage of a mistake someone else offered to you.
If I engage in all kinds of lies and deceptions to get you to turn over property of yours to me for a song I'm a fraudster, but if you willingly offer up that same property on your own accord and I find you and take advantage of that mistake I've done nothing wrong. This is an important distinction.
mikef07
Senior Member - 4K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:09a
dshibb said: mikef07 said: HYPOCRICY!!
I'll say two things:
1) If I started a business where I bilked FWF posters out of $140 (let alone $1.4M) people supporting these two brothers would be calling for my head and saying I should go to jail.
2) These very same posters backing the brothers I have seen multiple times calling legal MLM businesses scams saying the people running them should be thrown in jail for what they do. You are a hypocrite if you ever do that again.
Hypocrites.
There is a huge difference between creating a scam and inducing others to make mistakes by investing time/money into it and taking advantage of a mistake someone else offered to you.
If I engage in all kinds of lies and deceptions to get you to turn over property of yours to me for a song I'm a fraudster, but if you willingly offer up that same property on your own accord and I find you and take advantage of that mistake I've done nothing wrong. This is an important distinction.
I love most of your posts dshibb but in this one we are going to have to agree to disagree. I totally respect people's opinions and rights to say this SHOULD NOT be a crime, just as there are laws I don't agree with and I have seen things that I don't consider and/or should not be considered a crime. In this case the most important factors is that the two people that did it think it is a crime by pleading guilty. They could come arrest me for the exact same thing right now and I would NEVER plead guilty to it. Why? Because I know I did nothing wrong, nor did I break any laws.
I have read a little about what Lord Kronis did. Without giving my opinion I am positive he would never plead guilty to something like this.
ETA: I see nothing wrong with people discussing arguing that this should not be a crime. I think at this point though what they did was a crime if not for the simple FACT that the two brothers said they committed a crime.
The final point I would make is that many posters here have still called people scammers and said that they should go to jail for doing legal things (MLM) that have been deemed legal by govt, courts, lawyers, etc for years, but this is a situation where govt., courts, the defendants, etc have said it is illegal and people here think they shouldn't go to jail. That is hypocritical in my opinion.
dhl
Senior Member
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:16a
There are people who plead guilty to things they are not guilty of based on bad advice or threats of harsher punishment if found guilty through trial. As some one mentioned before they may have just plead guilty as they were possibly going to be charged for more serious offenses i.e tax evasion which would have been easy to find them guilty if they didn't pay.
SUCKISSTAPLES
FW Historian
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:18a
When faced with spending your 30s-50s in jail or taking 24-30 months , and knowing an idiot jury is going to get mad you made so much money off this, and knowing that even if you beat this charge theyll haul you right back in for tax evasion.., plus all your assets have been seized so you can't afford decent defense counsel , you get pressured to do things you don't want to do.
mikef07
Senior Member - 4K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:23a
dhl said: There are people who plead guilty to things they are not guilty of based on bad advice or threats of harsher punishment if found guilty through trial. As some one mentioned before they may have just plead guilty as they were possibly going to be charged for more serious offenses i.e tax evasion which would have been easy to find them guilty if they didn't pay.
So they probably broke a crime in other words. Like I said arrest me for the same thing and I don't plead guilty, throw tax evasion at me and I still don't plead guilty. Throw anything you could throw at these brothers at me and I still don't plead guilty. Sure I will agree in cases where there is no alibi it can happen, but this is a cut and dry case. They (We) know what the brothers did. They did not deny it. Had they said it wasn't them (wrong place wrong time) then I see this in a different light and I see how people plead guilty because they can't prove it wasn't them.
SUCKISSTAPLES said: When faced with spending your 30s-50s in jail or taking 24-30 months , and knowing an idiot jury is going to get mad you made so much money off this, and knowing that even if you beat this charge theyll haul you right back in for tax evasion.., plus all your assets have been seized so you can't afford decent defense counsel , you get pressured to do things you don't want to do.
They arrest you today and seize your assets for the exact same thing are you pleading guilty? HELL NO is my guess.
SUCKISSTAPLES
FW Historian
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:24a
mikef07 said:
The final point I would make is that many posters here have still called people scammers and said that they should go to jail for doing legal things (MLM) that have been deemed legal by govt, courts, lawyers, etc for years, but this is a situation where govt., courts, the defendants, etc have said it is illegal and people here think they shouldn't go to jail. That is hypocritical in my opinion. Agape world CEO did go to jail. 19 years for that mlm. Adding a "product" sold with the mlm makes it legal but it's still a scam. Not a criminal scam, but a scam in which most people will lose money and countless hours working in "their business" which stands virtually no chance of success
mikef07
Senior Member - 4K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:26a
SUCKISSTAPLES said: mikef07 said:
The final point I would make is that many posters here have still called people scammers and said that they should go to jail for doing legal things (MLM) that have been deemed legal by govt, courts, lawyers, etc for years, but this is a situation where govt., courts, the defendants, etc have said it is illegal and people here think they shouldn't go to jail. That is hypocritical in my opinion. Agape world CEO did go to jail. 19 years for that mlm. Adding a "product" sold with the mlm makes it legal but it's still a scam. Not a criminal scam, but a scam in which most people will lose money and countless hours working in "their business" which stands virtually no chance of success
Honestly same people that say those legal business founders should still go to jail for bilking people out of money. These brothers definitely scammed someone. When people here see an MLM (or other legal business) scam posters or even non posters they write....he should go to jail. Personally I think people are backing these brothers out of their own self interest.
1) If I started a business where I bilked FWF posters out of $140 (let alone $1.4M) people supporting these two brothers would be calling for my head and saying I should go to jail.
2) These very same posters backing the brothers I have seen multiple times calling legal MLM businesses scams saying the people running them should be thrown in jail for what they do. You are a hypocrite if you ever do that again.
Hypocrites.
There is a huge difference between creating a scam and inducing others to make mistakes by investing time/money into it and taking advantage of a mistake someone else offered to you.
If I engage in all kinds of lies and deceptions to get you to turn over property of yours to me for a song I'm a fraudster, but if you willingly offer up that same property on your own accord and I find you and take advantage of that mistake I've done nothing wrong. This is an important distinction.
I love most of your posts dshibb but in this one we are going to have to agree to disagree. I totally respect people's opinions and rights to say this SHOULD NOT be a crime, just as there are laws I don't agree with and I have seen things that I don't consider and/or should not be considered a crime. In this case the most important factors is that the two people that did it think it is a crime by pleading guilty. They could come arrest me for the exact same thing right now and I would NEVER plead guilty to it. Why? Because I know I did nothing wrong, nor did I break any laws.
I have read a little about what Lord Kronis did. Without giving my opinion I am positive he would never plead guilty to something like this.
ETA: I see nothing wrong with people discussing arguing that this should not be a crime. I think at this point though what they did was a crime if not for the simple FACT that the two brothers said they committed a crime.
The final point I would make is that many posters here have still called people scammers and said that they should go to jail for doing legal things (MLM) that have been deemed legal by govt, courts, lawyers, etc for years, but this is a situation where govt., courts, the defendants, etc have said it is illegal and people here think they shouldn't go to jail. That is hypocritical in my opinion.
My answer to you would be the same as SIS's so I wont restate it.
Otherwise in the Invado thread I deliberately said that what they were doing wasn't illegal, but that they "should burn in hell". The reason being is that they went out and found not so bright people, convinced them to participate in a legal scam, and screwed them over. In this instance Nordstroms made the mistake and the brothers didn't induce them into making that mistake. From looking at the facts of the case I cannot see how you can arrive at the conclusion that what they were doing was illegal. I just can't.
But lets just suffice it to say that the reason why the brothers plead guilty likely had little to do with the nature of this issue and more to do with some other factor included in SIS's post.
newbietx
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:29a
Wait till FW one day gets hit with a subpoena to hand over all PM messages exchanged on its site
1) If I started a business where I bilked FWF posters out of $140 (let alone $1.4M) people supporting these two brothers would be calling for my head and saying I should go to jail.
2) These very same posters backing the brothers I have seen multiple times calling legal MLM businesses scams saying the people running them should be thrown in jail for what they do. You are a hypocrite if you ever do that again.
Hypocrites.
There is a huge difference between creating a scam and inducing others to make mistakes by investing time/money into it and taking advantage of a mistake someone else offered to you.
If I engage in all kinds of lies and deceptions to get you to turn over property of yours to me for a song I'm a fraudster, but if you willingly offer up that same property on your own accord and I find you and take advantage of that mistake I've done nothing wrong. This is an important distinction.
I love most of your posts dshibb but in this one we are going to have to agree to disagree. I totally respect people's opinions and rights to say this SHOULD NOT be a crime, just as there are laws I don't agree with and I have seen things that I don't consider and/or should not be considered a crime. In this case the most important factors is that the two people that did it think it is a crime by pleading guilty. They could come arrest me for the exact same thing right now and I would NEVER plead guilty to it. Why? Because I know I did nothing wrong, nor did I break any laws.
I have read a little about what Lord Kronis did. Without giving my opinion I am positive he would never plead guilty to something like this.
ETA: I see nothing wrong with people discussing arguing that this should not be a crime. I think at this point though what they did was a crime if not for the simple FACT that the two brothers said they committed a crime.
The final point I would make is that many posters here have still called people scammers and said that they should go to jail for doing legal things (MLM) that have been deemed legal by govt, courts, lawyers, etc for years, but this is a situation where govt., courts, the defendants, etc have said it is illegal and people here think they shouldn't go to jail. That is hypocritical in my opinion.
My answer to you would be the same as SIS's so I wont restate it.
Otherwise in the Invado thread I deliberately said that what they were doing wasn't illegal, but that they "should burn in hell". The reason being is that they went out and found not so bright people, convinced them to participate in a legal scam, and screwed them over. In this instance Nordstroms made the mistake and the brothers didn't induce them into making that mistake. From looking at the facts of the case I cannot see how you can arrive at the conclusion that what they were doing was illegal. I just can't.
But lets just suffice it to say that the reason why the brothers plead guilty likely had little to do with the nature of this issue and more to do with some other factor included in SIS's post.
That is a fair post. All of you are speculating why the brothers are pleading guilty. They could have just as easily said "we got caught, we plead guilty." I am not speculating when I say the brothers admitted to doing the crime they are pleading guilty to. You guys want to argue that this shouldn't be a crime I get it. We can agree to disagree there and I truly understand both sides. No one should ever again say that an MLM person should go to jail again though, if they are supporting these brothers. What they could argue is that it should be illegal to run an MLM, but not that it is and that the owners should go to jail.
I'll add that the courts disagree with you in that they deem this illegal. We are also talking federal court which is no joke.
SUCKISSTAPLES
FW Historian
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:32a
mikef07 said:
They arrest you today and seize your assets for the exact same thing are you pleading guilty? HELL NO is my guess. If I was arrested today , had all my assets seized , faced a 30 yr sentence Plus a tax evasion charge if i beat this charge , and the govt offers me a deal for 24-30 months to settle up on all possible claims, id seriously consider taking it.
AND then I'd wish my brethren at FW or elsewhere would rally in my support and try to uncover what really happened, and why I was thrown under the bus by fw and Nordstroms . Remember it takes only one whistle blower with a conscience to read this and come forward with knowledge of facts that show this did not really happen quite the way the complaints allege
mikef07
Senior Member - 4K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:35a
SUCKISSTAPLES said: mikef07 said:
They arrest you today and seize your assets for the exact same thing are you pleading guilty? HELL NO is my guess. If I was arrested today , had all my assets seized , faced a 30 yr sentence Plus a tax evasion charge if i beat this charge , and the govt offers me a deal for 24-30 months to settle up on all possible claims, id seriously consider taking it.
AND then I'd wish my brethren at FW or elsewhere would rally in my support and try to uncover what really happened, and why I was thrown under the bus by fw and Nordstroms . Remember it takes only one whistle blower with a conscience to read this and come forward with knowledge of facts that show this did not really happen quite the way the complaints allege
But you never made an order at Nordstroms, nor did you receive Cash Back from FW for any Nordstroms order. Why would you care if they were going to charge you with tax evasion related to a Nordstrom order if you have never shopped at Nordstroms from FW (or maybe you have for tiny amounts of money). My guess is you pay your taxes. If they charged me with murder in Portland, OR last night there is nothing they could do to get me to plead guilty. I wasn't in Oregon last night. Again my guess is if you literally got a knock on the door and got arrested for bilking $1.4M out of Nordstroms right now you would laugh and nothing they could do would get you to plead guilty.
These guys scammed Nordstrom. Period. You guys can argue that it should not be a crime. The facts (as proved by the court) are that it is a crime (as of today since they did charge them with a crime) and that the brothers said they committed such crime.
1) If I started a business where I bilked FWF posters out of $140 (let alone $1.4M) people supporting these two brothers would be calling for my head and saying I should go to jail.
2) These very same posters backing the brothers I have seen multiple times calling legal MLM businesses scams saying the people running them should be thrown in jail for what they do. You are a hypocrite if you ever do that again.
Hypocrites.
There is a huge difference between creating a scam and inducing others to make mistakes by investing time/money into it and taking advantage of a mistake someone else offered to you.
If I engage in all kinds of lies and deceptions to get you to turn over property of yours to me for a song I'm a fraudster, but if you willingly offer up that same property on your own accord and I find you and take advantage of that mistake I've done nothing wrong. This is an important distinction.
I love most of your posts dshibb but in this one we are going to have to agree to disagree. I totally respect people's opinions and rights to say this SHOULD NOT be a crime, just as there are laws I don't agree with and I have seen things that I don't consider and/or should not be considered a crime. In this case the most important factors is that the two people that did it think it is a crime by pleading guilty. They could come arrest me for the exact same thing right now and I would NEVER plead guilty to it. Why? Because I know I did nothing wrong, nor did I break any laws.
I have read a little about what Lord Kronis did. Without giving my opinion I am positive he would never plead guilty to something like this.
ETA: I see nothing wrong with people discussing arguing that this should not be a crime. I think at this point though what they did was a crime if not for the simple FACT that the two brothers said they committed a crime.
The final point I would make is that many posters here have still called people scammers and said that they should go to jail for doing legal things (MLM) that have been deemed legal by govt, courts, lawyers, etc for years, but this is a situation where govt., courts, the defendants, etc have said it is illegal and people here think they shouldn't go to jail. That is hypocritical in my opinion.
My answer to you would be the same as SIS's so I wont restate it.
Otherwise in the Invado thread I deliberately said that what they were doing wasn't illegal, but that they "should burn in hell". The reason being is that they went out and found not so bright people, convinced them to participate in a legal scam, and screwed them over. In this instance Nordstroms made the mistake and the brothers didn't induce them into making that mistake. From looking at the facts of the case I cannot see how you can arrive at the conclusion that what they were doing was illegal. I just can't.
But lets just suffice it to say that the reason why the brothers plead guilty likely had little to do with the nature of this issue and more to do with some other factor included in SIS's post.
That is a fair post. All of you are speculating why the brothers are pleading guilty. They could have just as easily said "we got caught, we plead guilty." I am not speculating when I say the brothers admitted to doing the crime they are pleading guilty to. You guys want to argue that this shouldn't be a crime I get it. We can agree to disagree there and I truly understand both sides. No one should ever again say that an MLM person should go to jail again though, if they are supporting these brothers. What they could argue is that it should be illegal to run an MLM, but not that it is and that the owners should go to jail.
I'll add that the courts disagree with you that this is not illegal. We are also talking federal court which is no joke.
A court hasn't decided anything here. A prosecutor and 2 defendants decided something here. There is a big difference.
mikef07
Senior Member - 4K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:41a
dshibb said: A court hasn't decided anything here. A prosecutor and 2 defendants decided something here. There is a big difference.
A court has to sign off. A prosecutor could come to an agreement with me that eating an orange is a crime and I could plead guilty and come to the agreement that I will go to jail for 24 months for eating an orange. A judge (court) would never allow that to happen.
SO yes the courts agree that this is a crime or it would have been thrown out.
SUCKISSTAPLES
FW Historian
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:45a
I thought Your hypothetical was "if I did the exact same thing they did , would I take the deal" and the answer is probably yes.
Personally I've never churned a FatCash merchant for repeated orders, but that doesn't mean I can't stand up when I believe there's an injustice being done to another fw member
dshibb
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 7:49a
mikef07 said: dshibb said: A court hasn't decided anything here. A prosecutor and 2 defendants decided something here. There is a big difference.
A court has to sign off. A prosecutor could come to an agreement with me that eating an orange is a crime and I could plead guilty and come to the agreement that I will go to jail for 24 months for eating an orange. A judge (court) would never allow that to happen.
SO yes the courts agree that this is a crime or it would have been thrown out.
A court wont sign off on anything until July. So this is incorrect.
And when a guilty plea is entered on something where a case is even warranted(i.e. its indictable) then its extremely unlikely the judge will throw out the case based on their view of innocence.
LOL, maybe a little bit of Nordstroms PR here to sooth over some ticked off members?
mikef07
Senior Member - 4K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 8:38a
dshibb said: mikef07 said: dshibb said: A court hasn't decided anything here. A prosecutor and 2 defendants decided something here. There is a big difference.
A court has to sign off. A prosecutor could come to an agreement with me that eating an orange is a crime and I could plead guilty and come to the agreement that I will go to jail for 24 months for eating an orange. A judge (court) would never allow that to happen.
SO yes the courts agree that this is a crime or it would have been thrown out.
A court wont sign off on anything until July. So this is incorrect.
And when a guilty plea is entered on something where a case is even warranted(i.e. its indictable) then its extremely unlikely the judge will throw out the case based on their view of innocence.
An officer of the court if you will (prosecutor) signed off on it as did his/her boss.
SUCKISSTAPLES said: I thought Your hypothetical was "if I did the exact same thing they did , would I take the deal" and the answer is probably yes.
Personally I've never churned a FatCash merchant for repeated orders, but that doesn't mean I can't stand up when I believe there's an injustice being done to another fw member
Yeah I meant without doing what they did. I too might plead guilty had I done what they did completely knowing it is wrong.
What is not in question is that as of today they committed a crime and admitted to committing a crime. If the court throws it out (highly unlikely) then so be it
dshibb
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 8:40a
mikef07 said: dshibb said: mikef07 said: dshibb said: A court hasn't decided anything here. A prosecutor and 2 defendants decided something here. There is a big difference.
A court has to sign off. A prosecutor could come to an agreement with me that eating an orange is a crime and I could plead guilty and come to the agreement that I will go to jail for 24 months for eating an orange. A judge (court) would never allow that to happen.
SO yes the courts agree that this is a crime or it would have been thrown out.
A court wont sign off on anything until July. So this is incorrect.
And when a guilty plea is entered on something where a case is even warranted(i.e. its indictable) then its extremely unlikely the judge will throw out the case based on their view of innocence.
An officer of the court if you will (prosecutor) signed off on it as did his/her boss.
SUCKISSTAPLES said: I thought Your hypothetical was "if I did the exact same thing they did , would I take the deal" and the answer is probably yes.
Personally I've never churned a FatCash merchant for repeated orders, but that doesn't mean I can't stand up when I believe there's an injustice being done to another fw member
Yeah I meant without doing what they did. I too might plead guilty had I done what they did completely knowing it is wrong.
What is not in question is that as of today they committed a crime and admitted to committing a crime. If the court throws it out (highly unlikely) then so be it
Its merely tentative until that judge signs it.
MaxRC
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Apr. 13, 2012 @ 8:41a
EndlessKnight said: Nothing about their "scheme" was illegal, they neither lied nor misrepresented any fact. Let just stop will all these analogies and just ask ourseleves one question: How can one commit fraud if they never lied nor misrepresented any facts?They placed orders never intending to actually receive or pay for them. They exploited a defect in the order processing at Nordstrom to ensure that the orders wouldn't be shipped or charged.
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