Going to med school at 30 - thoughts?

vistaluck said:   This explain why my thinking is more rational so all my decisions were more rational.

Researchers find thinking in a foreign language causes people to make more rational decisions

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-foreign-language-people-ra...

Explain the Mexicans then.

mikef07 said:   saladdin said:   vistaluck said:   This explain why my thinking is more rational so all my decisions were more rational.

Researchers find thinking in a foreign language causes people to make more rational decisions

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-foreign-language-people-ra...

Explain the Mexicans then.

Hey racist, nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you too. Want to get some Mexican food?

jkimcpa said:   vistaluck said:   This explain why my thinking is more rational so all my decisions were more rational.

Researchers find thinking in a foreign language causes people to make more rational decisions

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-foreign-language-people-ra...Interesting that they say foreign language, and only have asian language as examples...

The language is not important. It's the culture associated with it. Not a coinsidence that the Japanese people have returned $100 million worth of found money after the tsunami and we are busy making documentries claiming the US government caused the flooding during Katrina in order to flood the nearly all-black ninth ward.

jkimcpa said:   saladdin said:   jkimcpa said:   vistaluck said:   This explain why my thinking is more rational so all my decisions were more rational.

Researchers find thinking in a foreign language causes people to make more rational decisions

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-foreign-language-people-ra...Interesting that they say foreign language, and only have asian language as examples...

The language is not important. It's the culture associated with it. Not a coinsidence that the Japanese people have returned $100 million worth of found money after the tsunami and we are busy making documentries claiming the US government caused the flooding during Katrina in order to flood the nearly all-black ninth ward.But they were interviewing Americans who learned Japanese/Korean languages. So I don't think you can dismiss the importance of language.

I would say that people who are interetsed in Japanese/Korean language have an above average liking for that culture. Mimic the language because they want to mimic the culture. To mimic the culture you have to know the language. Language is just the by-product of an interest in that culture. We all have had that Spanish/French teacher in high school who immersed their self in that culture even though they were 100% Anglo to the bone.

It's very easy to understand why people are attracted to an Asian culture of living and they want to mimic it.

saladdin said:   jkimcpa said:   saladdin said:   jkimcpa said:   vistaluck said:   This explain why my thinking is more rational so all my decisions were more rational.

Researchers find thinking in a foreign language causes people to make more rational decisions

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-foreign-language-people-ra...Interesting that they say foreign language, and only have asian language as examples...

The language is not important. It's the culture associated with it. Not a coinsidence that the Japanese people have returned $100 million worth of found money after the tsunami and we are busy making documentries claiming the US government caused the flooding during Katrina in order to flood the nearly all-black ninth ward.But they were interviewing Americans who learned Japanese/Korean languages. So I don't think you can dismiss the importance of language.

I would say that people who are interetsed in Japanese/Korean language have an above average liking for that culture. Mimic the language because they want to mimic the culture. To mimic the culture you have to know the language. Language is just the by-product of an interest in that culture. We all have had that Spanish/French teacher in high school who immersed their self in that culture even though they were 100% Anglo to the bone.

It's very easy to understand why people are attracted to an Asian culture of living and they want to mimic it.Your theory would hold if the results of the research was that people who learned those languages had same outcome regardless of the way the questions were asked, vs someone who didn't know the languages. However, they are asking the same set of people the same question in the different language and getting different results. Clearly, it's the not the person who's adopting the language - it's the language's logic that changes the way the person thinks (presumably more rationally).

patch96 said:   catanpirate said:   I just started an accelerated nursing program (after finishing prereq's). In 15 months I'll have a BSN. Then, a job in an ICU. Then, sky is the limit.

If you have a chip on your shoulder, I suggest that being a male nurse is not for you. (even though you will get fast-tracked).

You will probably end up a NP or CRNA. As a man, you are a super-minority. You will never make of $250,000/year, but you will never regret this decision and you can move anywhere in the county with relative ease.

But, get used to working in a world of women.

CRNAs may not be able to make more than $250k/yr, but that's still a heck of a lot of money for someone who just did about 4yrs after bachelor's to get that money (1yr accelerated nursing, 2yrs icu work ($80k pay), 1yr crna...something like that).

nanotech2 said:   For what it's worth, I know an MD anesthesiologist who, five years after finishing his residency/fellowship, opened his own pain clinic/surgery center and started making almost $2M/yr! After the "startup phase" of about a year or so, he now only works 35hrs a week and can literally take months off at a time if he wants...and he does (I think he has other anesthesiologists under him now).

He himself says he got very lucky to have chosen his specialty AND to been wise enough to open his surgery clinic. He is very grateful and is in general a very nice guy, spends most of his free time doing philanthropic work (not just donating money).

The big deal about his case: he started med school when he was 30.

Just another data point to think about.

Where did he get the capital to start a turn key operation on top of hundreds of thousands in medical school loans.

The few MDs I know/work with/against who own/operate ASCs say they are taking hits with rapidly changing medicare/medicaid/stark, etc. laws regarding physician/hospital reibursement.

nanotech2 said:   For what it's worth, I know an MD anesthesiologist who, five years after finishing his residency/fellowship, opened his own pain clinic/surgery center and started making almost $2M/yr! After the "startup phase" of about a year or so, he now only works 35hrs a week and can literally take months off at a time if he wants...and he does (I think he has other anesthesiologists under him now).

He himself says he got very lucky to have chosen his specialty AND to been wise enough to open his surgery clinic. He is very grateful and is in general a very nice guy, spends most of his free time doing philanthropic work (not just donating money).

The big deal about his case: he started med school when he was 30.

Just another data point to think about.
The $2M/year may have just been what he billed, not what was actually collected. But, even assuming that he is making that, he is not making it directly from practicing medicine; it is because he owns a business. It's a fine distinction (earning money from working as a physician vs being a physician and owning a business), but one that is very often overlooked.

as mentioned it isnt likely that his work as an anesth gets him that sort of cash

it could be amount billed or he could be owner of a business where the additional revenue from that pushes him higher

i wouldnt be surprised if he made 1 million if he worked all the time but 2 million, doesnt seem like enough hours in the day to make that happen.

I say go do it. I am 30 and just submitted my medical school application today!! (yey!!!) I am a mother of two kids and currently work in a hospital as CT Scan Technologist. It is never too late to accomplish your dreams. The difference between us and the traditional medical student is we HAVE TO PLAN EVERY ASPECT of the journey. I began this transition by first talking to my family. I had to make sure I had the support before I completed by undergraduate degree to go to medical school. I went back to school and 3 years later (Dec 2012) I will have by BS in Chemistry.

The way I look at it is I'm going to be 40 anyway, might as well be a 40 year old doctor I also found out that when you apply to medical school you will be allowed to take extra loans depending on the number of dependents you may have which will help provide for family.

I wish you the best and good luck! Take it from me, it's a wonderful feeling being 30 and going to med school )))

My cousin did it and is in residency now. Non-traditional med students are discriminated against and you're more likely to be matched with a malignant program. He describes residency as "soul sucking." He started with $250,000 in savings and graduated with $30,000 debt. He mentioned former IT med students are now very common.

dynolmbebo said:   the residency program is more about where you went to med school (american or a foreign med school) and what speciality you choose. As well as your USMLE scores and grades.

If you choose to be in the northeast, esp NYC area, you'll experience crummy systems unless you get into Mt Sinai.

At 30, no one should really be taking your age into account. I think if you were 50 or 60 and applying for neurosurgery, many would wonder.

I started med school at age 22 and did a surgical residency.

There is no way I could see myself doing a surgical residency in my late 30's; my energy levels are significantly lower, and I can't see myself taking orders from arrogant, foul-mouthed 29 year olds.

For specialties like radiology, radiation oncology, or anesthesia, things may be different; however, the economic climate in those specialties is problematic.

In general, if you're 30 and want to change careers and go into a medical field, I suggest physician assistant, nurse practitioner, or CRNA. MD doesn't pay, isn't worth the expense/agita.

The $2M/year may have just been what he billed, not what was actually collected. But, even assuming that he is making that, he is not making it directly from practicing medicine; it is because he owns a business. It's a fine distinction (earning money from working as a physician vs being a physician and owning a business), but one that is very often overlooked.

You're right, his work as "just a doc" doesn't pay him the "close to $2M"....it's his "business" that does.

But still, just one clinic and over $1.5M/yr take-home pay (before taxes)!?! That's a lot.

I think before his total salary may have been between $400k-$500k. Still a heck of a lot, but not $1.5M.

Even the $400k-$500k was amazing to me though because I never thought doctors could make much more than $150k-$200k (the US dept of labor average pay figures never go above $200k for docs, at least they didn't when I was looking back in 2002, which realistically back then I don't remember those figures being above even $150k).

But my point with mentioning this is that there are options to do things like this, where you open your own "business." And it doesn't look that difficult, after you've been through all that it takes to become a doc in the first place. It's not like you have to invent something new. Just work hard, be a doc, work harder, open your own clinic, and then relax.

dynolmbebo said:   Not sure about rad onc. Don't really know anyone who did that fellowship. One of our close friends is in radiation oncology. It is very good money (although not nearly as much as radiation oncologists used to make a few years ago, when they were just printing money) and, since it is such a narrow specialty (there are usually just a couple of rad onc spots in a program; contrast it with IM or family, which tend to be huge programs), it is a close knit community. There is a ton of physics involved, however, which quite a few people do not like. Further, because it is so narrow, your post residency employment options are extremely limited, so you don't have much of a choice in terms of the area where you live.

geo123 said:   nanotech2 said:   I think before his total salary may have been between $400k-$500k.Right, that's about the range for anesthesiologists. It's not all roses though. While anesthesiology is financially rewarding, it isn't a very family friendly specialty. This may not matter to people now, but it probably will at some point. In general, in order to make half decent money in anesthesiology, you have to work a lot of call, including overnight call. You also tend to have very limited patient interaction, which may or may not suit your personality (the joke is that people with good interpersonal skills don't go into anesthesiology exactly because of this).

Or radiology for that matter, which is why you sit behind a screen all day.

dynolmbebo said:   You may not see patients as often as medicine or family, but when you do, you tend to speak with them much longer. I can't tell you how many times I've answered the question "what is this exam and why am I getting it?" All the referring physicians where I did residency never said anything to there patients. You become a patient advocate in many instances.

There is the "ROAD" specialities - radiology, opthomalogy, anesthesiology, and dermatology. There is more form the past. But radiology may not fit in there any longer. More hours, more studies, more procedures and having to cover nights (unless the hospital, practice gave it up to a night hawk group - which is a bad thing in my opinion).

You can probably scratch out ophthalmology from ROAD as well. Nearly impossible to get a GOOD job in desirable locations (LA, SF, etc.); opening your own is probably worse (very high start up costs, high competition for patients, severely decreased reimbursement both outpatient and surgical, etc.). You can still make good money if you are willing to set up shop in a rural area though.

Just my opinions:

1. Doing something for 30 years that you have, and saving up, so that one day you could do the thing you love, is just not smart,

2. It is never too late to do something new, but you have to account for realistic constraints. I went to grad school at 24, finished at 30, and have a lot higher earning potential. But I feel like if I had worked from 24-30 and made what I was making plus inflation, I would have probably been much more ahead in savings. Savings is just one variable. Some of my other friends got married, had kids, bought houses, etc.

I feel that the later you start something, the more you are paying for it, whatever the currency may be,

3. You take a lot of risk that whatever you undertake at 30 might not work out. It is not enough to think that you are smart. It is important that job givers think that you are smarter and better (preferably MUCH smarter and better) than you cohort,

4. Med school is one of the most expensive and risky professions. I believe that the foundation of medicine is incorrect in the US. It is set up as a system for average intelligence folks who are willing to take huge loans to seek an above average paying occupation.

You also partially pay for the possibility that you might end up in a very high niche (hit jack-pot) like neurosurgery, urology, dermatology, or whatever it may be.

I also think that the longer you study, the worse your odds are, i.e., the element of lottery and randomness start to dominate. I am not saying that the person becoming a neurosurgeon is a random act. I am just saying that your chances of becoming a neurosurgen are a priori random.

One thing I don't like about medicine is the fact that you have to commit a lot of years before you find out if you like it or not. E.g., in college, I had 3 summer internships, and each one gave me a chance to figure out if I like that job / profession or not. In grad school, I had one summer internship to figure out if I like finance, etc.

tolamapS said:   

4. Med school is one of the most expensive and risky professions. I believe that the foundation of medicine is incorrect in the US. It is set up as a system for average intelligence folks who are willing to take huge loans to seek an above average paying occupation.

You also partially pay for the possibility that you might end up in a very high niche (hit jack-pot) like neurosurgery, urology, dermatology, or whatever it may be.

I also think that the longer you study, the worse your odds are, i.e., the element of lottery and randomness start to dominate. I am not saying that the person becoming a neurosurgeon is a random act. I am just saying that your chances of becoming a neurosurgen are a priori random.

I was with you until this part. Why is it flawed for average people to take risks in order to make a payoff? The "average intelligence" doesn't seem to fit either. Whatever else you or I might say about them: med students/doctors are far above average intelligence as a direct consequence of the path taken to get there. Most have stellar grades to even attempt the MCAT. Then their MCAT must be high to get into the school. Then they must pass difficulty board exams to become a practicing physician. Maybe you could clarify.

Also, what do you mean by the chances of becoming a neurosurgeon being a priori random?

drsauce said:   tolamapS said:   

4. Med school is one of the most expensive and risky professions. I believe that the foundation of medicine is incorrect in the US. It is set up as a system for average intelligence folks who are willing to take huge loans to seek an above average paying occupation.

You also partially pay for the possibility that you might end up in a very high niche (hit jack-pot) like neurosurgery, urology, dermatology, or whatever it may be.

I also think that the longer you study, the worse your odds are, i.e., the element of lottery and randomness start to dominate. I am not saying that the person becoming a neurosurgeon is a random act. I am just saying that your chances of becoming a neurosurgen are a priori random.

I was with you until this part. Why is it flawed for average people to take risks in order to make a payoff? The "average intelligence" doesn't seem to fit either. Whatever else you or I might say about them: med students/doctors are far above average intelligence as a direct consequence of the path taken to get there. Most have stellar grades to even attempt the MCAT. Then their MCAT must be high to get into the school. Then they must pass difficulty board exams to become a practicing physician. Maybe you could clarify.

Also, what do you mean by the chances of becoming a neurosurgeon being a priori random?

Good post. Let ma address all your points:

Q1: Why is it flawed for average people to take risks in order to make a payoff?

I believe that I did not expresss clearly and adequately what I wanted to say. So first let me state a few things that I believe, so we don't argue on things that we actually agree on.

There is nothing wrong with people of any intelligence or social standing to have opportunities, or to take risks for higher rewards. Also, I was lax in my usage of "average intelligence".

I do have a problem with people to take risks if they are risking my money, my health, or my life. Therefore, I personally would like to hold people in the medical profession to a much higher standard.

What I meant by what is wrong with the medical education system in US is this. The end goal is set as a financial achievement, and that attracts people who are in it for the BUSINESS, not the profession. Yes, there are people in medicine who are passionate about helping people with their healths, but the cast majority of them are very well equipped to run a business.

Do you know how many BS medical tests / procedures I have been recommended? Useless, expensive, and of questionable quality ... I have back pain, which comes and goes. After extensive tests, going to many doctors, specialists, etc, it is yet undiagnosed. The best thing I got was from a physical therapist, who is not equipped to diagnose the problem. Yes, if I had something obvious like a bulged disk, sure, and MRI would reveal that. But you know what, most of the advancement in medicine is from TECHNOLOGY not people. I have friends who are making MRIs better: either imaging, or the interpretation. They are absolutely brilliant. I don't know one person who is in a medical profession that is brilliant. I do know a lot of people in medical professions who are running good business: doing procedures with relatively high billing rates, pocketing the money, and helping some people, some percentage of the time.

So when I said that the system is set up wrong, that's what I meant.

Q2: what do you mean by the chances of becoming a neurosurgeon being a priori random?

I will try one way to explain this. Let's say you ask every student who takes MCAT (or every student who gets admitted to medical school) one question, but any question. The question could be this:

- do you want to become a neurosurgeon,

or better this

- do you think you will become a neurosurgeon.

The question has only two answers: Yes or No.

Then for every student, you track that answer.

And then later on, you check to see who became a neurosurgeon.

Let the event of someone specific becoming a neurosurgeon be called NS, and their answer to the question be YQ. Then NS and YQ are uncorrelated. That's kind of what I mean by a priori random. But the terms and assumptions need to be tightened a little bit.

tolamapS said:   Good post. Let ma address all your points:

Q1: Why is it flawed for average people to take risks in order to make a payoff?

I believe that I did not expresss clearly and adequately what I wanted to say. So first let me state a few things that I believe, so we don't argue on things that we actually agree on.

There is nothing wrong with people of any intelligence or social standing to have opportunities, or to take risks for higher rewards. Also, I was lax in my usage of "average intelligence".

I do have a problem with people to take risks if they are risking my money, my health, or my life. Therefore, I personally would like to hold people in the medical profession to a much higher standard.

What I meant by what is wrong with the medical education system in US is this. The end goal is set as a financial achievement, and that attracts people who are in it for the BUSINESS, not the profession. Yes, there are people in medicine who are passionate about helping people with their healths, but the cast majority of them are very well equipped to run a business.

Do you know how many BS medical tests / procedures I have been recommended? Useless, expensive, and of questionable quality ... I have back pain, which comes and goes. After extensive tests, going to many doctors, specialists, etc, it is yet undiagnosed. The best thing I got was from a physical therapist, who is not equipped to diagnose the problem. Yes, if I had something obvious like a bulged disk, sure, and MRI would reveal that. But you know what, most of the advancement in medicine is from TECHNOLOGY not people. I have friends who are making MRIs better: either imaging, or the interpretation. They are absolutely brilliant. I don't know one person who is in a medical profession that is brilliant. I do know a lot of people in medical professions who are running good business: doing procedures with relatively high billing rates, pocketing the money, and helping some people, some percentage of the time.

So when I said that the system is set up wrong, that's what I meant.

Fair enough. I HAVE met many doctors that are brilliant and most that I know put the health of the patient first. You may have just fallen in with a bad lot. You can expect any significant medical advancements to come from technology in the future. A history and physical can only get you so far from a diagnosis standpoint and treatment using manual manipulations are not likely to improve, so I can't imagine a scenario where we can move either forward without new technology.

tolamapS said:   Q2: what do you mean by the chances of becoming a neurosurgeon being a priori random?

I will try one way to explain this. Let's say you ask every student who takes MCAT (or every student who gets admitted to medical school) one question, but any question. The question could be this:

- do you want to become a neurosurgeon,

or better this

- do you think you will become a neurosurgeon.

The question has only two answers: Yes or No.

Then for every student, you track that answer.

And then later on, you check to see who became a neurosurgeon.

Let the event of someone specific becoming a neurosurgeon be called NS, and their answer to the question be YQ. Then NS and YQ are uncorrelated. That's kind of what I mean by a priori random. But the terms and assumptions need to be tightened a little bit.

I think I understand your premise, but I'm not sure this is a bad thing. In medical school, students are exposed to all different types of specialties and their associated lifestyles. Many will change their minds because of the competitiveness, others because of money/lifestyle preferences, and still others just based on their personal interests. I doubt there are many docs out their wishing they would have gone into neurosurgery instead. Once they've seen what it entails, they realize it wasn't the life they wanted. But the way of most of these specialties is that if you work hard enough and long enough (add a research year or two, etc) - you will get the specialty you want. It may not be exactly the location you want, but it is very likely to happen if you really work for it.