Roofer screwed me - ideas/options?

rev613 said:   2. he was advertising that he is insured (Our state's attorney general database listed him as insured as well) but when I filed a claim his ins. company told me that there is no active policy for more than one year.

I don't take anyones word that they are insured (other than doctors) except a faxed or emailed proof of insurance directly from the insurance company. Question #1: Are you insured, Question #2: What provider and what's your policy number.

xit said:   lesson learned -- don't pay any money up front to contractors.

The OP didn't pay up front - he paid 1/2 when the job was 1/2 completed.

xit said:   lesson learned -- don't pay any money up front to contractors.

Hd didn't. He paid half at the halfway point and was to pay the other half at completion.


I know the economy is tough and they all want some $ up front. Sometimes that is an indication that they are under capitalized and on the verge of failing as a business. You can offer to pay for the materials up front but not the labor until the job is completed and passes inspection.

Usually, requiring payment upfront means they need your money to finish the job they are working on before you. As far as paying for materials, I'd imagine most contractors would have business accounts that don't require payment until at least 30 days later.

i had a similar situation, but not with a roof. it was a leaking toilet on the second floor damaging the drywall on the first floor. i paid the full amount half way through because he said he would finish tomorrow. the contractor took off and i never heard from him again after that. i took him to small claims court and won. he then filed bankruptcy and got the judgement dismissed. he apparently couldn't pay his lawyer to file bankruptcy so he took mine to pay for it (jackass). some things i learned during the process

1) pay for your materials and nothing more until its complete. if they won't do it - find another contractor.
2) get proof of their insurance on large repairs (roofs, kitchens, etc)
3) small claims is worthless. it took about 9 months. i had to show up 3 times (all on weekdays during work) because he was always a no show at court. they finally issued a bench warrant for him. i then got a letter in the mail a few weeks later notifying me of his filing and that the judgment was dismissed.
4) don't go to small claims court. you got screwed, unfortunately you need to live with it. just make sure he doesn't work as a contractor again. go on yellowpages, yellowbook, etc and leave comments if he is advertising on those sites. people won't pick contractors with neg feedback. file complaints with Attorney General and BBB.
5) look at this as an experience you paid you. you won't make the same mistake twice (hopefully).

hope this helps

It looks like you did many things right before hiring the contractor. As you stated, your new lesson is that people lie.

In my younger years, I hired a roofer (husband/wife) who had many good references. I paid half up front (stupid) to buy materials. No materials were purchased. I found out later that the roofer used my money to go on vacation. The roofer refused to refund my money and their only excuse was that they weren't doing any more roofs.

I hired a competent lawyer and sued (not in small claims court). I easily got an enforceable judgement. My lawyer attached their paychecks wherever worked.

In the end, they declared bankruptcy. The bank repossessed their house and they disappeared.

Through the attachment of their paychecks, I recouped all my lawyer fees (~$3.5K). I never collected on the money I lost ($6.5K).

I did find some enjoyment in:

- They were thrown out of their house that was built on property that had been in their family for generations
- When their paychecks were attached, they routinely called my lawyer to beg to reduce the payments as it was putting them in a financial hardship.
- One of the people who referred them to me has a house that is a rotted mess because the roof they have is useless. They might as well have a funnel on top of their house.

I ended up buying all the gear I needed and did the roof myself over four years. I have a big house with complex roofs. It doesn't leak.

To sum it up, you probably won't get your money back.

-Turbowells

Another point: We did some research before we sued. We found they owned a house that was built on property they already owned. We figured they had an asset they would try to keep. If they didn't have the house, we probably wouldn't have sued.

Indianaman79 said:   3) small claims is worthless. it took about 9 months. i had to show up 3 times (all on weekdays during work) because he was always a no show at court. they finally issued a bench warrant for him. i then got a letter in the mail a few weeks later notifying me of his filing and that the judgment was dismissed.

The only value to be had from small claims is against companies that can't just file bankruptcy over $5k or against individuals that you want to inconvenience to the extreme.

I sued a father who's son screwed me on a craigslist deal because he wouldn't hold his son accountable. Made him show up a good 4 times during the week and take time off work, which was a big deal to him. I was salary and my boss doesn't care if I took off randomly.

Roofers generally nail, they do not screw.

Perhaps we should start a thread "dealing with contractors" thread.

Pay in advance? -- Never, or a token amount to secure the job (?)
Pay for materials? -- In contractor insists, then with him at The Home Depot.
Insurance? -- if relevant to the job, insist on knowing the company and policy #, then verify coverage.
Trade Licenses? -- Verify with state and/or with trade associations
References? -- Verify locally, preferably in person where you can see the work.
Inspection required? -- Final payment contingent upon getting the inspection certificate/COO/or whatever it's called.

Other things (based on my experience)
1. Make clear where and how any waste is to be disposed of. Make it absolutely clear that your back lot or the neighbor's property is not an acceptable place.
2. Specify exact grade and type of materials to be used. If you don't you'll get the cheapest.

What other "rules" for dealing with contractors do people have?

Kanosh said:   Perhaps we should start a thread "dealing with contractors" thread.

Pay in advance? -- Never, or a token amount to secure the job (?)
Pay for materials? -- In contractor insists, then with him at The Home Depot.
Insurance? -- if relevant to the job, insist on knowing the company and policy #, then verify coverage.
Trade Licenses? -- Verify with state and/or with trade associations
References? -- Verify locally, preferably in person where you can see the work.
Inspection required? -- Final payment contingent upon getting the inspection certificate/COO/or whatever it's called.

Other things (based on my experience)
1. Make clear where and how any waste is to be disposed of. Make it absolutely clear that your back lot or the neighbor's property is not an acceptable place.
2. Specify exact grade and type of materials to be used. If you don't you'll get the cheapest.

What other "rules" for dealing with contractors do people have?

I would only add on to the paying for materials, to go with them, pay for the materials, and load them in your own vehicle and take them home. Someone in another thread said they went to HD and watched them take the materials out but as soon as they left the crew returned everything.

But to be honest if a contractor can't buy supplies on their own account without me forking out money it's a red flag.

Hello I am a lawyer, but I am not posting in my capacity as a lawyer. Furthermore, I probably do not live in your state, so I would not be a lawyer to you anyway. But here are my two cents: Don't waste your time, money, or aggravation on this issue.

You want to sue for $5k I believe you said, in small claims court? Well, thats not small claims, its regular claims, a civil lawsuit. You might as well sue for a million bucks. You are facing a full blown jury trial. That can turn out one of two ways, he can hire an attorney or appear pro se (represent himself) or he can ignore your lawsuit and you can get a default judgment.

Either way, you will have to pay a filing fee. That will probably be around $400. To file a motion, it will cost $100. You can expect to file a few motions. Serivce of process is expensive, call your local sheriff to find the rates they charge. You will need to take at least one deposition, that is also fairly expensive.

If he defends, you would be well advised to hire an attorney. That may cost around or more than $5k, so you already may have lost. If you do not hire an attorney, you run the risk of having your case dismissed because you are likely to screw something up. For example, if you do not understand the rules of evidence and you mention any of your "pertinent details" to the jury, it is possible the judge will jump all over you. Ultimately, if you fail to prove any element of the cause(s) of action you sue for, your case is likely to be dismissed. If he does not defend, then you will be in a position to obtain a default judgment. This happens when he repeatedly ignores discovery requests. It takes at least 2 motions to compel discovery before a judge will consider a motion for default (each motion costs $$).

So lets say you have a jury trial and you do a great job. If there are just a couple of fox news watching idiot conservatives on your jury, you can kiss any chance of getting a judgment goodbye. Those brainwashed types who view all lawsuits as "frivolous" view their opportunity to serve on a jury as an opportunity to actively participate in tort reform. Just because you have a great case and should win does not mean a jury will side with you. A couple of jurors who have a misinformed view of the "McDonalds coffee case" will take their rage out on you (or your lawyer), if given the chance.

So lets say I am wrong about everything so far and you do win your case and get a judgment. Does this guy have any assets? If hes a roofer hes likely paid in cash. You have his bank details? Whats to stop him from getting a different bank account, or just paying for everything in cash? My point is that a million dollar judgment isn't worth anything if the defendant has no assets. You need to "attach" something to the judgment. It costs $70 to attach a bank account in my jurisdiction. You pay that regardless of whether you actually get anything from the bank account. Certain things you can have seized and sold at an auction to have your judgment satisfied. But most things you can't, including his car, home, clothes, etc. If he has no assets, then don't waste your time.

So lets say he does have assets. If hes a roofer, times are tough for him. He will probably declare bankruptcy. That will wipe your judgment off the books. You will be unable to collect anything from him if he declares bankruptcy. So you went through all this time and expense, and you have nothing to show for it.

These are real issues to consider. It is a bad situation you are in and I feel bad for you. But if you decide to sue the roofer, I hope you understand the additional headaches you are inflicting upon yourself. Do yourself a favor and cut your losses. Thats my advice.

Take the advice of the lawyer above, I am a contractor and can confirm that you are wasting your time/money on a lawsuit, complaints to the BBB, AG and others. Contractors like the one you ran into are not phased by things like that, they prey on people who don't know a lot about construction and remodeling and will move onto the next customer without hesitation. If necessary, they will change the name of the business to get future work. You will likely find that this guy has no assets or money. You're only hope is that he has liability insurance which is unlikely.

Before you hire another contractor, get a copy of his liability insurance certificate and Work. Comp.. Don't just assume they are valid, call the insurance company or agent listed and verify that the policies are in force. Lots of contractors get blank insurance documents, fill them out and give them to customers knowing full well that 99% of them are not going to take the time to make that call to verify. Good luck.

OliverQuackenbush said:   Hello I am a lawyer, but I am not posting in my capacity as a lawyer. Furthermore, I probably do not live in your state, so I would not be a lawyer to you anyway. But here are my two cents: Don't waste your time, money, or aggravation on this issue.

You want to sue for $5k I believe you said, in small claims court? Well, thats not small claims, its regular claims, a civil lawsuit. You might as well sue for a million bucks. You are facing a full blown jury trial. That can turn out one of two ways, he can hire an attorney or appear pro se (represent himself) or he can ignore your lawsuit and you can get a default judgment.

SNIP.

No offense but if you are a real lawyer you are either very bad or need more training. There are plenty of states where you can file 5k or even more in small claims court. So no it would not be a full blow jury trial.

Please re-read what you type and think about it before posting.

lotusgardener said:   whodini said:   Of course you could go with a reputable company, like Lowes or Home Depot, for your contracting needs. You will pay more, but hopefully you'll get what you pay for.

Both Lowe's and HomeDepot sub out to the cheapest bidder. You don't always get what you pay for.

And then you have another middle person, HD/Lowes, pointing the finger and also muddies the water if you try and sue either.

Hire direct and make sure they and you follow through.
Also learn at least the basic stuff so when a contractor says they are doing XYZ you have a idea if it sounds right or not. I do most of my repirs, house and car, and for the ones I have hired I knew how to do it but usually time was not on my side. I was able to tell them how to do it if I was not happy.

The OP has listed his state as PA. According to this Philadelphia guide, the small claims limit is $10K (+filing costs). It's probably the same state-wide.

http://courts.phila.gov/pdf/brochures/small-claims-court.pdf

It doesn't look too expensive with the possible payback of making the roofer's life miserable.

Edit: looks like PA has different limits per county. Saw this elsewhere: "Pennsylvania limits small claims to amounts under $10,000 in Philadelphia and $8,000 elsewhere in the state."

Still within the OPs scope.