Fatwallet Consensus: Why not to marry (alternatively titled...how to implode a thread in one bagel or less)

Annual spending pre wife - ~24000 - 4 yrs - Included at least one week of drinking and "socializing" in Europe every year and at least 1-2 bar nights per week.

Annual spending post wife - ~44000 - year 1, ~48000 - year 2, Stabilized year 3-5 at approx 52k.

Rule of Fs. If it flies, floats or ..cks it is cheaper to rent.

TexasRob said:   Annual spending pre wife - ~24000 - 4 yrs - Included at least one week of drinking and "socializing" in Europe every year and at least 1-2 bar nights per week.

Annual spending post wife - ~44000 - year 1, ~48000 - year 2, Stabilized year 3-5 at approx 52k.

Rule of Fs. If it flies, floats or ..cks it is cheaper to rent.

obviously post wife you are adding an additional person so of course it's going to nearly double.

It's impossible to discuss the benefits of marriage without starting with the concept that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Absent this concept, I agree that only a fool would ever marry.

All your points are pretty much correct. Remember this is a finance forum. Children and marriage are typically huge costs. That they may provide other types of satisfaction in ones life is noted, but isn't really germane to a finance forum.

It's usually silly to ask "should I have kids" or "should I get married" if examining only the finances of it. Because you probably won't like the answer .

I often respond with anti-marriage advice for young FWFers asking the question...that being said, I'm very happy to be married, have a child and plan to have at least one more. We dated for 5 years prior to marriage and were married 5 years prior to having a child (I'm a big fan of 5 year plans for major life decisions). Neither of us had a dime to our name when we met (actually we each had our fair share of debt), neither of us have wealthy parents so we skipped the pre-nup. If you look at the majority of my advice to FWFers and what I tell my friends it's mostly anti-marriage...but not because I'm against the institution of marriage itself, I just think people rush-in without first giving thought to the long-term ramifications (potential divorce, assets, debt, taxation, the urge to bang the hot neighbor, etc)...and that's all I really encourage people to consider. I didn't really start seriously tracking our finances/net worth until after we were married, but the increase in the 6 years we've been married is nearly 10 fold--though that was starting from a fairly low number due to student loans, etc. There's something to be said about being commited to another person, sharing goals, income, expenses (economies of scale are a nice perk of marriage). If I hadn't gotten married and were dating and were considering marriage at this point in life (when I do have assets) I would be a whole lot more cautious than I was (when I didn't have $h!t).

jcb193 said:   
3.) This site might have a higher population of socially-challenged people, or internet behaviors that impede a successful marriage.
4.) It's just normal to become disillusioned/realistic as you go through life and gain experience.

3) is almost certainly true. Four is true for 98% of people. The others we call "simpletons."

MrGlobe said:   Just wondering if your income changed post-marriage, or if you were saving the other ~$25k a year when you were single TexasRob. Just curious, either way it's good to see someone with numbers/experience backing up their opinion

My saving rate pre-marriage was approximately 62% and accounting for promotions/raises decreased to a low of 34%. Slowly winning her over so spending levels have stabilized and career shift has boosted the savings. She will never be a saver but at least she isn't donated brand new clothes to goodwill lately.

rmhop said:   TexasRob said:   Annual spending pre wife - ~24000 - 4 yrs - Included at least one week of drinking and "socializing" in Europe every year and at least 1-2 bar nights per week.

Annual spending post wife - ~44000 - year 1, ~48000 - year 2, Stabilized year 3-5 at approx 52k.

Rule of Fs. If it flies, floats or ..cks it is cheaper to rent.

obviously post wife you are adding an additional person so of course it's going to nearly double.

Because we obviously did not move in together and are still paying for 2 separate houses and associated bills...

Why buy the cow?

jcb193 said:   So after reading the latest "never get married/don't trust women" thread (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1188453/) I began to wonder why the fatwallet community is so anti-marriage? Is this a normal societal reaction, or does this website foster a certain kind of groupthink? Or does this website cater to people that have a pre-disposition to divorce/strife. There have to be many instances where marriage can be financially beneficial (raising a family, sharing resources, dividing expenses by 2 instead of one, mental health, quality of life), but those are obviously offset by divorce and cheating stories. Yes 50% of marriages end in divorce, but 100% of marriages thought they would succeed.

So I figure it comes down to four things:
1.) Fatwallet people put a higher-than-normal emphasis on money spent/saved, and many marriages are undone by financial differences. Hence, one could beget the other.
2.) This is the internet, where you can say what you want, even if you don't believe it.
3.) This site might have a higher population of socially-challenged people, or internet behaviors that impede a successful marriage.
4.) It's just normal to become disillusioned/realistic as you go through life and gain experience.

I know this is in the finance section, so I will ask why it is such a common bit of advise to not get married or not trust women on this forum. Is that really sound advice???? Would you say the same thing to your best friend that you would advise to a stranger?

PLEASE NOTE. I am not trying to sound condescending here. All four of the above points could easily apply to anyone or myself.

You missed some important reasons why FW folks appear to be anti-marriage:

1. The posters here are a tiny microcosm of society as a whole. It is not that FWers (and thereby society at large) are anti-marriage as much as they are (a) PROUD (b) SELFISH (c) ENTITLED (d) MISINFORMED (e) CONSUMERISTS (f) DISINFORMED (g) SELF SERVING (h) IDOL WORSHIPPERS

2. You will rarely find rational advice when it comes to dating or marriage if your sole purpose in life is to WORSHIP money. People that worship money make terrible teachers (of anything), terrible spouses, friends, coworkers, etc.

3. When money worshippers are not worshipping money, they are worshipping themselves. They cannot do anything for anyone else (let alone a spouse) because they are too busy trying to find someone else they can blame for their own failures and shortcomings and trying to find others who can serve their needs (only). They can never serve. They can only be served.

4. Entitlements and Pride are virtues (not vices) to money worshippers. They see no problem in telling others to not get married because they themselves (if they are married) are terrible spouses. How can anyone take advice from a group of proud money worshippers?

5. Feeding their pride is television, internet and the media. Why settle for marriage when you are being told 24/7 that IT is all about YOU? Don't like your current spouse? Great! Just kick them to the curb and get another one online! Like rock climbing, but your spouse doesn't? No problem. Just find another online! Frustrated that you cannot get your "fair share" from this marriage financially/emotionally/physically? Don't spend another minute worrying about it! Flush it and find another one! After all, it is all about you! You are the best and YOU deserve nothing but the best!

So, I'm not surprised by the widely held sentiment in here. It reflects a much larger problem at the society level.

College enrollment of women is 55% and growing, to men's 45%. The future is clear -- women will on average earn more than men. From an economic standpoint, you're likely to benefit if you marry a wife. I have known personally 4 women who are supporting their husbands. This trend will grow.

Also, if you decide to marry, try to marry a wife who is about your age or younger. Beauty is short lived, so if you have to put up with the nagging, at least give yourself a chance to smell the roses and watch the flowers bloom. Of course aging affects everyone. Suppose you run into an older woman, make sure she is sweet and supportive. An "old nag" is quite possibly the worst deal in marriage-- for the man.

A tree that grows tall and sturdy usually has a strong root system as the foundation. A strong marriage would be your foundation for a long and happy life. Don't let the potential price tag deter you. Loneliness and lovelessness have a high price, too.

vstrt said:   jcb193 said:   So after reading the latest "never get married/don't trust women" thread (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1188453/) I began to wonder why the fatwallet community is so anti-marriage? Is this a normal societal reaction, or does this website foster a certain kind of groupthink? Or does this website cater to people that have a pre-disposition to divorce/strife. There have to be many instances where marriage can be financially beneficial (raising a family, sharing resources, dividing expenses by 2 instead of one, mental health, quality of life), but those are obviously offset by divorce and cheating stories. Yes 50% of marriages end in divorce, but 100% of marriages thought they would succeed.

So I figure it comes down to four things:
1.) Fatwallet people put a higher-than-normal emphasis on money spent/saved, and many marriages are undone by financial differences. Hence, one could beget the other.
2.) This is the internet, where you can say what you want, even if you don't believe it.
3.) This site might have a higher population of socially-challenged people, or internet behaviors that impede a successful marriage.
4.) It's just normal to become disillusioned/realistic as you go through life and gain experience.

I know this is in the finance section, so I will ask why it is such a common bit of advise to not get married or not trust women on this forum. Is that really sound advice???? Would you say the same thing to your best friend that you would advise to a stranger?

PLEASE NOTE. I am not trying to sound condescending here. All four of the above points could easily apply to anyone or myself.

You missed some important reasons why FW folks appear to be anti-marriage:

1. The posters here are a tiny microcosm of society as a whole. It is not that FWers (and thereby society at large) are anti-marriage as much as they are (a) PROUD (b) SELFISH (c) ENTITLED (d) MISINFORMED (e) CONSUMERISTS (f) DISINFORMED (g) SELF SERVING (h) IDOL WORSHIPPERS

2. You will rarely find rational advice when it comes to dating or marriage if your sole purpose in life is to WORSHIP money. People that worship money make terrible teachers (of anything), terrible spouses, friends, coworkers, etc.

3. When money worshippers are not worshipping money, they are worshipping themselves. They cannot do anything for anyone else (let alone a spouse) because they are too busy trying to find someone else they can blame for their own failures and shortcomings and trying to find others who can serve their needs (only). They can never serve. They can only be served.

4. Entitlements and Pride are virtues (not vices) to money worshippers. They see no problem in telling others to not get married because they themselves (if they are married) are terrible spouses. How can anyone take advice from a group of proud money worshippers?

5. Feeding their pride is television, internet and the media. Why settle for marriage when you are being told 24/7 that IT is all about YOU? Don't like your current spouse? Great! Just kick them to the curb and get another one online! Like rock climbing, but your spouse doesn't? No problem. Just find another online! Frustrated that you cannot get your "fair share" from this marriage financially/emotionally/physically? Don't spend another minute worrying about it! Flush it and find another one! After all, it is all about you! You are the best and YOU deserve nothing but the best!

So, I'm not surprised by the widely held sentiment in here. It reflects a much larger problem at the society level.Frugal person = narcissistic money worshiper. Got it.

Why don't you sell all your possessions, give it away, and walk the Earth barefoot? Hypocrite.

Love
Child-rearing
Sharing of resources
Mental health
Quality of life

All are benefits of being in a stable relationship, not of marriage.

In pre-technology days, the purpose of marriage was to assign offspring to a man. That is, if a married woman had a child, the man would believe that it was his and be expected to support it. Without a public, community-recognized declaration of partnership, there was no way to determine which man should support which child and where inheritances should go.

These days, we have DNA testing for that. Much more reliable.

In the absence of any real purpose, marriage has devolved into a way for people who don't really love each other to put on a facade of stability. "We're together because we're married, and therefore we're supposed to be" instead of "we're together because we want to be." Its a thin, paper patch over gaps in a relationship. When one person isn't really sure that they want to be there, they suddenly feel that they "need" to be married, a feeling that is led by the belief that signing a form and having a ceremony will cause whatever was lacking in the relationship to get better. No surprise, it doesn't.

My opinion is that if you're looking to marriage for stability, you should work on whatever is wrong in your relationship instead. It may be tough, but it is a more honest way forward than trying to wipe it all away with a certification from the government.

Its a bit of a catch 22. If your relationship has the qualities of a good marriage, then you don't need to be married. If you need to be married, your relationship doesn't have the qualities that it needs. FWF members tend to be high achievers. They are more likely to want to confront their problems directly than to paper over them.

Now, lets move away from relationship issues and look at marriage in terms relevant to a financial forum.

In purely practical terms, there is one advantage to marriage - access to a partner's group health insurance.

There are several disadvantages:
- If one partner gets in financial trouble - for instance a car accident whose costs exceed the limits of insurance - everything that both partners have is lost
- If there is a child with a health problem that cannot be covered by insurance, one partner can agree to let themselves cover the costs, go bankrupt and be supported by the other partner. Can't do that if assets are merged.
- Marriage tax penalty - Married couples often pay more in taxes than they would separately. This usually negates any health insurance savings.

Once you have kids. You already hit the reset button.

You life outside of work is no longer about you. Your home life is primarily about raising them.

If both parents get this, then there is a possibility of a functional relationship and functional children.

If either one of you are still trying to reach for your own status in the world, then it could get rough.

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1188850/

Another reason.

vstrt said:   
The type of thinking that is put forward in your post - lots of caps, lots of enthusiasm, lots of anger but not much substance - is at the heart of the problem with marriage. Having some guy in a funny hat wave his arms over you and declare you to be in love won't give you a good relationship. Thats why more than 50% of married people cheat on their partners and most marriages end in divorce. The only way to have a good relationship is to put the guy in the funny hat aside and make mutual compromises with your partner to solve your issues. In the end, cohabitating and working things out the hard way is simply more honest than marriage.

if i wasn't typing at the same time i would've quoted this in my post...my sentiments exactly

vstrt said:   
You missed some important reasons why FW folks appear to be anti-marriage:

1. The posters here are a tiny microcosm of society as a whole. It is not that FWers (and thereby society at large) are anti-marriage as much as they are (a) PROUD (b) SELFISH (c) ENTITLED (d) MISINFORMED (e) CONSUMERISTS (f) DISINFORMED (g) SELF SERVING (h) IDOL WORSHIPPERS

WTF? I feel like we've stepped back a few centuries. By the way, why is it when people go all indignantly self righteous on this board they lose their sense of spelling.

worshippers /= worshipers

Unfortunately, given the society we live in marriage does not make any financial sense due to the predictable path it tends to take. Absent any strong value system to the contrary, most people will put their career/financial/personal ambitions ahead of their spouse and families. The numbers consistently show this. When people form a relationship in the first place in our society high up on most peoples priority list is physical beauty/ money, and guess what? There WILL be someone more attractive than you at the office, specially as time elapses and the initial infatuation with you fades as it always does. There will be someone who your spouse comes across who has more to offer financially than you do. Your spouse will do what just about everyone has come to consider acceptable- jump ship, or ride both ships. Hey, many of his/her friends have done it and are talking about it. The constant stream of articles in the Wall Street Journal on how to uncover your spouses secret activities/ hidden assets via key loggers and GPS tracking devices, and how to get over infidelity, are anecdotal evidence of this sad reality. The huge number of those who ADMIT to infidelity in surveys are such that I would not be shocked if the truth was much greater numbers if not near universal. Given the above, the financial considerations are simple. The lawyer fees will vastly out-weigh any initial savings-they can easily top 100k. Given the inevitability of the above, one would have to be insane to marry.

The one notable exception is among those who have strongly held religious beliefs about marriage and family, and the role of money/career in their lives. These groups tend to have a much larger percentage of happy marriages and fidelity to their spouses. They tend to separate themselves from their careers/ financial achievements, and place their spouses and families needs above their self-centered desires. Obviously this is not universally true even among these groups, but the odds are a whole lot better for a stable, happy marriage that allows for the financial benefits that come along with it. I know several such families personally, and curiously most of them are high earners, and fairly high achievers, though none are the I-sleep-at-the-office-my-firm-is-my-life type. If you fit the above, this would clearly change the financial equation. If not, refer to the above.

There is much to be said about whether we are truly better off, or happier than those naive, superstitious religious folks of yore that we smugly look down upon, but that is not finance related and must be left for a different discussion.

If marriage is viewed as business purely financial perspective, marriage is mostly so-so at best with few extreme successes and a lot of failures. Few successes would charge you money to show know-how while failures are free to post internet forums

Dare I suggest that I proved my point?

...I think I have. The evidence for what I said in my post above is clearly demonstrated in many of the posts related to the topic.