• Page :
  • 1
  • Text Only
rated:

I am the landlord of a basement apartment unit in my personal residence. My tenant has a one year lease that ends tomorrow June 14, 2012. I do not want to renew the lease and want the tenant to move out. I have not made any agreement with the tenant (written or otherwise) to renew the lease, nor have reminded them that the lease is ending.

The property is in Seattle, WA.

How should I proceed? What sort of notice do I need to give the tenant?

I would like them to vacate the unit ASAP.

Any advice or stories about similar experiences would be appreciated.


Member Summary
Most Recent Posts

In many states, there is an automatic provision for how to renew a lease if the lease does not state how to do so. If the... (more)

arktc (Jun. 15, 2012 @ 7:51p) |

FWIW, I think the OP here is being a bit of a jerk, kicking the person while they are down. The OP seems to have contradictory... (more)

hpmax (Jun. 15, 2012 @ 11:54p) |

My plan three weeks ago (before tenant fell off wagon again) was to sign a new 13 month lease with my downstairs tenant ... (more)

SeattleLandlord (Jun. 16, 2012 @ 11:10a) |

 

  • Also categorized in:
Thanks for visiting FatWallet.com. Join for free to remove this ad.

Does your lease have a clause that it reverts to a month to month lease after the initial term? If so, you will more than likely need to give him/her a 30 day notice to vacate premises (depending on WA state tenant/landlord laws, I am in PA....)


The language in the lease says that at the end of the year the lease converts to a month-to-month only with the approval of the landlord.

I have not provided that approval in writing or verbally.

 

I am willing to give the tenant reasonable time to move out, I just don't want my giving them time beyond the one year to constitute an extension of the lease or a conversion to mo-to-mo status.

The tenant is a severe alcoholic who after months of sobriety fell off the wagon a few days ago, lost her job, and is probably not even in a state to get out of bed, much less move out.


Google your state or county and landlord tenant rules, as they vary widely

Typically you'll need to provide written notice , usually. 1-2 months . Saying nothing till now was not a good way to make them pack their bags tomorrow , if that's what you were hoping for


SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Saying nothing till now was not a good way to make them pack their bags tomorrow , if that's what you were hoping for

I definitely realize that. I was planning to extend lease another year until a few days ago when I found out the tenant fell off the wagon and lost her job.


I'm not sure whether you are a troll waiting around and then posting this request as a new member.

You haven't provided notice to the tenant that you don't intend to continue into a month to month, so at this point either side needs to give 1 month notice. You need to tell her with writing tomorrow you are exercising your 1 month notice and she has 1 month to vacate.

If the tables were reversed and she handed you your keys at the end of the term without notice, I'm sure you'd be a bit upset with having to find a new tenant with no income coming in.


Springing this on her will not go over well no matter how it's handled. You can be nice and offer her $300 if she leaves this weekend. Sort of a "cash for keys " approach that is better than her trying to stay as long as possible without paying.


SeattleLandlord said:   SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Saying nothing till now was not a good way to make them pack their bags tomorrow , if that's what you were hoping for

I definitely realize that. I was planning to extend lease another year until a few days ago when I found out the tenant fell off the wagon and lost her job.

Who cares if they lost their job as long as she keeps paying? I believe fair housing laws allow you to screen applicants on whether or not they have sufficient income to pay rent, but I am not so sure you can fail to renew the lease just because they are unemployed. Depending on the laws, you might be opening yourself up to legal action by kicking them out and renting the unit to someone else at the same rate. Why not keep taking this persons money and the minute they are late file eviction paperwork?


What if she lost her job? Why care as long as she pays you when the rent is due??


by "fell off the wagon" and "basement apt" I think the "tenant" might be related or personal aquaintance to OP.

Landlords who are strangers arent aware whether someone is on or off the wagon


biomedeng said:   SeattleLandlord said:   SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Saying nothing till now was not a good way to make them pack their bags tomorrow , if that's what you were hoping for

I definitely realize that. I was planning to extend lease another year until a few days ago when I found out the tenant fell off the wagon and lost her job.

Who cares if they lost their job as long as she keeps paying? I believe fair housing laws allow you to screen applicants on whether or not they have sufficient income to pay rent, but I am not so sure you can fail to renew the lease just because they are unemployed. Depending on the laws, you might be opening yourself up to legal action by kicking them out and renting the unit to someone else at the same rate. Why not keep taking this persons money and the minute they are late file eviction paperwork?

I'm not a lawyer (or a landlord), so obviously take what I say with a grain of salt.

How is this different from requiring proof of income from a tenant at the beginning of a lease, considering that it is a month-to-month lease now? Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I would think that would give OP the ability to kick her out with sufficient notice (unless prohibited for other reasons...ie discrimination, landlord-tenant law, etc). But if it were halfway through the lease and OP somehow found out that the tenant lost her job, I don't think it would be possible to break the lease solely on that premise as long as she keeps paying. I'm not certain if the source of the income can be considered, but the amount can (around here at least, landlords want your income to be ≥ rent*3).

OP says another reason that (s)he doesn't want her there is because the tenant is supposedly an alcoholic who recently relapsed. Although it probably doesn't apply to the tenant's current situation, alcoholism/substance dependence can be considered a disability under the ADA (see ADA.gov). This doesn't cover people who are currently abusing substances, but it applies to people who are in recovery/treatment, or had previous addictions. (OP might be exempt from "fair housing" laws though, since it sounds like (s)he is just renting out a basement in an owner-occupied house.)

Look at local landlord-tenant laws too, that would probably play a big role. I would think a city like Seattle would have some sort of tenant protections that might restrict how OP can do this.


No I am not related to the tenant. I know that she fell off the wagon because I talked to her boss when the boss showed up at my house to check on tenant when tenant did not show up for work on Monday morning. Tenant has a history of this behavior.

According to tenant's boss, the apartment is a wreck (vomit etc) and tenant was incoherently drunk. I haven't heard any noises from tenant's unit so I assume she is passed out for last couple days. Last time this happened she was passed out drunk for about a week.

I wouldn't mind giving 30 days for her to move out, I just don't want that to mean the lease is converted to mo2mo status because my research has shown that a landlord must have "just cause" to end a mo2mo lease in Seattle. I may have "just cause" but would prefer to not tangle with that tar baby if I don't have to.

I appreciate all of your responses and assure you I am not a troll. I'm just a landlord who didn't have his ducks in a row and am now trying to deal with a bad situation.


I am not planning to rent the basement apartment out again after current tenant moves out. The plan is to rent the entire house out as one unit for the next year while my wife and I move to the east coast for a one-year fellowship.

In my research i have not found anything that says I have an obligation to remind the tenant that the lease is ending. She knew the ending date a year ago when she signed the lease.


My common sense solution to this problem would be to just talk to the tenant; notify them I'm not renewing their lease and offer 20 or even 30 days rent free for them to vacate. If tenant plays ball, that would be fine. Tenant is (when sober) a nice reasonable lady. I'm just trying to prepare myself for the worst case scenario and not open myself up to a 60-day or more eviction drama.


Just tell your tenant what you told us. Knock on the door and hand her a 30 day notice and as nicely as you can, say "Hi, I wanted to thank you for being my tenant for the past year. My plans for this property have changed and I am no longer interested in renting out the basement. I am not planning to rent the basement apartment out again after current tenant (you) moves out" You don't have to tell her your plan. Tell her "Please have your stuff out and return the keys within 30 days". Also, while you are there, you can ask to inspect the unit. If there is damage or anything document it and tell her it needs to be cleaned and repaired before she leaves. What is so hard about this?


Also its currently the OPs residence, so a lot of the fair housing and descriminatory laws do NOT apply. Once he moves out its different, but since he is renting out a portion of his residence he has more lattitude in who he rents to.

But as wd says, its pretty straightforward if you are planning to lease the home as an entire unit.


Is it a legal apartment and within Seattle city limit?


Give them 30 days notice to move out. Do you have a security deposit? If so, that is often used informally as last month's rent.


wd and redwolfe, Thanks for your responses.

Washington state law, and Seattle City law in particular, very much support the tenant's rights above the landlord's. I am worried that providing a 30 day notice might imply a continuation of the lease, making it a month-to-month lease in the eyes of the law.

My research suggests that if the lease is month-to-month, I must have "just cause" for terminating the lease and even if I can show just cause, I have to provide 20 days notice prior to the end of the current rental month, which means in this case, the tenant would be here until mid-July and may be able to drag it out longer by claiming I don't have "just cause".

 

ZenNUTS said:   Is it a legal apartment and within Seattle city limit?

It is within Seattle city limits. It is not an official "additional dwelling unit".


SeattleLandlord said:   Any advice or stories about similar experiences would be appreciated.
I played ball back when I was a tenant in Seattle, dealing with a clueless landlord.
Lived rent-free in a SFH for 1 year+. Not a ding on my credit. Even LinkdIn with the guy.

Red on.

My advice would be to follow the letter of the law ... to the letter.
I hope you even have a valid lease.


When you say It is not an official "additional dwelling unit", are you "illegally" renting this out.

You have probably seen this; #9 seems to be a "good cause" in your situation.
Text

Good causes include:
<snip>
9. The owner wishes to terminate a tenant who lives in
the same housing unit with the owner or the owner's
agent; or the owner desires to stop sharing his or her
house with a tenant living in an approved accessory
dwelling unit (ADU) in an owner-occupied house.


why not present her with a new 1 year lease that is 4x times the current rent?
You can attach a written letter that the new lease gets executed or she has 30 days to
move out.

P.S. the idea is to provide some motivation for her to move out.


DeGlass said:   SeattleLandlord said:   Any advice or stories about similar experiences would be appreciated.
I played ball back when I was a tenant in Seattle, dealing with a clueless landlord.
Lived rent-free in a SFH for 1 year+. Not a ding on my credit. Even LinkdIn with the guy.

Red on.

My advice would be to follow the letter of the law ... to the letter.
I hope you even have a valid lease.
Wow, didn't see that coming from you. I sure hope the person deserved it.

There's no such thing as valid lease in an illegal apartment, unless the lease is for a roommate??


No job and bingeing. Cash for keys may be your cheapest path. Get a signed agreement.


Proceed as WD advised, and talk to her. Perhaps she was planning on moving out anyway, problem solved.


Give me the address. I will talk to your tenant for only $300.


SeattleLandlord said:   wd and redwolfe, Thanks for your responses.

Washington state law, and Seattle City law in particular, very much support the tenant's rights above the landlord's. I am worried that providing a 30 day notice might imply a continuation of the lease, making it a month-to-month lease in the eyes of the law.

My research suggests that if the lease is month-to-month, I must have "just cause" for terminating the lease and even if I can show just cause, I have to provide 20 days notice prior to the end of the current rental month, which means in this case, the tenant would be here until mid-July and may be able to drag it out longer by claiming I don't have "just cause".

 

ZenNUTS said:   Is it a legal apartment and within Seattle city limit?

It is within Seattle city limits. It is not an official "additional dwelling unit".

Is there a rent control statute and does your unit fall under the rent control statute? Usually these sorts of "just cause" rules for month-to-month tenancies stem from rent control. Without rent control, month-to-month means month-to-month as we all know it -- either party can give one month's notice.

Even if your unit is not an official unit, it may still fall under the rent control law or have additional penalties, and the tenant may be able to use this as leverage. In San Francisco, the tenant can potentially get what are essentially penalty payments in some cases because SF landlord-tenant law is so ridiculously skewed towards tenants, and this is especially true if the tenant is old or disabled or meets some other category the City wishes to favor.


arktc, the unit is not under rent control. The unit is not legally permitted as an "accessory dwelling unit". It is in the basement of my house with a separate entrance and its own kitchen and bathroom.


Since starting this thread I talked to a lawyer. I'm recording the advice I got from her here for the benefit of others who might be in a similar situation and also to record it for myself as a memory aide:
1) I am not required to remind the tenant that their lease is expiring. Just because I didn't remind her the lease was ending, and even that we discussed possibly extending the lease does not constitute an agreement to extend the lease. Without a written agreement to the contrary, the fact is that the lease ends at the end of the year.
2) I can give a written notice stating that the lease is ending today. I did this today and she signed the paper acknowledging receipt of the notice.
3) I should not in any way say anything implying that it is "ok for you to stay until you find another place..." etc. When I gave her the notice and she asked "how long until I have to move out?" I said, "I can't legally tell you that you can stay here beyond today because that might imply I'm extending the lease, but I understand that if I start the eviction process tomorrow, it will probably take 2-3 weeks."
4) I should not accept any money from her for additional rent
5) On June 15th, (the first official day she will have overstayed her lease) I can start trying to get an "unlawful detainer" which is the first step in the eviction process.

That's about as far as I've gotten so far. Based on my conversation with the tenant this afternoon, I'm thinking she will probably move out without a problem, but I'm just trying to prepare myself in case she refuses to leave.

Although I've gotten a lot of red for this thread, I appreciate the input of those that responded. Thanks!

I will update the thread as the story develops.


SeattleLandlord said:   arktc, the unit is not under rent control. The unit is not legally permitted as an "accessory dwelling unit". It is in the basement of my house with a separate entrance and its own kitchen and bathroom.

If there's no rent control or other overriding statute, generally a lease for a term of years is a lease for a term of years and is self-terminating if there's no language to extend it. That's why I was confused as to why a lot of commenters on this thread, trying to give legal advice, were talking about giving 30 days' notice and were making some strange assumptions. Since your lease said that it requires landlord approval to extend, and there appears to be no overriding landlord-tenant law that would override that provision, you're in the clear.

All of the stuff your attorney said is very standard for this scenario. You don't want to tell the tenant they can stay or take any money, because that could create some sort of additional tenancy. Glad this looks to be working out for you so far.


OP, while it appears you may have the legal authority to ask the tenant to leave in one day, I cannot imagine this going over very well. Your initial posts suggested you were open to her staying month to month, except that she has now lost her job. Later on you start claiming that you want to rent the whole house--if this were the only reason you would have likely informed the tenant months ago. The tenant obviously thought she could stay month to month, as you never previously said anything to the contrary. This is an unfortunate case of each party assuming something different that would have been easily resolved had either person spoken up.
If my landlord told me I had to move out tomorrow I would flip out. I can't believe your tenant did not get angry. I am willing to bet she does not move out tomorrow, given it takes some time to find a new place and coordinate a move. At a minimum you will be out your money to start an eviction (your attorney probably recommended this to earn some business), and in the worst case the tenant may intentionally damage the property to seek retribution for your bitch move of telling her to move out within one day. Had you simply told her 30-60 days ago the lease will not be extended she would have likely left quietly and you wouldn't pay for an eviction.


In New York State, you can sue to evict a tenant in an illegal basement apartment, but you CANNOT sue for back rent. (Cannot collect on an illegal apartment.)

You need to either familiarize yourself with Seattle procedure for giving notice to a tenant or hire a lawyer who is to advise you how to proceed. At this point, the vomit, the falling off the wagon, and the loss of a job will all be irrelevant to a court. You are the one responsible for giving proper notice to vacate and for choosing to rent out an apartment that didn't meet code.

Making some kind of cash-for-keys offer might work if you are on more less good terms with the tenant. If she has a lot of stuff in there you might have to throw in a moving truck and storage for a couple of months, no one is going to want to just abandon their stuff.

Keep in mind that if the tenant complains to the city or you take her to court, you may have a lot more to hassle with various city agencies to deal with regarding bringing your house up to code.


biomedeng said:   OP, while it appears you may have the legal authority to ask the tenant to leave in one day, I cannot imagine this going over very well. Your initial posts suggested you were open to her staying month to month, except that she has now lost her job. Later on you start claiming that you want to rent the whole house--if this were the only reason you would have likely informed the tenant months ago. The tenant obviously thought she could stay month to month, as you never previously said anything to the contrary. This is an unfortunate case of each party assuming something different that would have been easily resolved had either person spoken up.
If my landlord told me I had to move out tomorrow I would flip out. I can't believe your tenant did not get angry. I am willing to bet she does not move out tomorrow, given it takes some time to find a new place and coordinate a move. At a minimum you will be out your money to start an eviction (your attorney probably recommended this to earn some business), and in the worst case the tenant may intentionally damage the property to seek retribution for your bitch move of telling her to move out within one day. Had you simply told her 30-60 days ago the lease will not be extended she would have likely left quietly and you wouldn't pay for an eviction.

It honestly depends on the tenant what they'll do. A tenant in a higher-end rental generally won't trash the property, but if you're slumlording like it seems like many FWers do, then it could be a problem. My guess is that OP screened the tenant reasonably well because it's the basement of his primary residence, but stuff happens and people fall off the wagon sometimes. I'd note that the tenant never reached out to confirm that there would be a month-to-month tenancy after the initial 1 year term either. Maybe that's because the tenant fell off the wagon, but a lease has two parties, and it seems like both parties likely should have clarified terms at mid-May.

The attorney's advice was not necessarily faulty or designed to pick up additional work (and it would likely be an ethical violation if that were the case). If OP says orally that she can stay for a few extra days or if OP takes any additional rent from her without something in writing, that can create an automatic tenancy of some sort, usually month-to-month by default or it could be something else too. Depending on the circumstances, that may not be so great, although it seems like OP could tolerate that outcome based on what's been said so far.

If the tenant really balked at moving out quickly, what OP could do instead is sign a short-term lease for a fixed term that was also self-terminating. The key here is not to create any sort of automatic tenancy, and instead have a fixed one, and the attorney's advice is tailored to that scenario.

It's likely that OP didn't post everything the attorney said either. A good attorney would have also said, "it may be difficult for your tenant to move out in one day. You may want to prepare for ...."


I assume most posts said to give the tenant 30 days notice because most states have that as a law where a lease goes month to month automatically and ending month to month requires a month notice (generally put as 1 month meaning if you give notice January 1st-30th they have until Feb 29 to leave).

Evidently the OP has seen a lawyer and this law does not apply in their state/with their lease conditions so they can force the person out sooner.


You already have one strike against you. She is female. If she is over 40 you have two strikes. Hope she is not in another protected class because then 3 strikes and you are out. I am old enough to remember the stuff that lead up to the Fair Housing Act of 1965. I jammed that down the throat of a landlord in a mobile home park for discriminatory practices about 15 years ago an he had to pay court ordered attorney fees.

Most state court lawyers including HOA and landlord tenant don't know what is in the FHA affecting landlord tenant. Case is heard in Federal court and most landlords know enough to stay away. She may also qualify under ADA because Alcoholism is considered to be a genetically tied disability.

I would say either give the 30 day cancellation notice and follow it scrupulously or SIS's cash for keys are your best option. State law is for those who are ignorant and don't know their rights or obligations. RedWolf, Fair Housing gets really tricky when you mix in ADA which you didn't consider. This case is similar to the duplex cases where the owner occupies one side rather than the single family dwelling where the rules are different. Looking at the definitions, OP has created a duplex for Fair Housing purposes. The stuff you are talking about doesn't work on her side according to the US 9th Circuit who are the powers that be in the state of Washington. Good law though in the 11th in Atlanta or the 5th in New Orleans. Split circuits and you are in the wrong one.

Where is CN47 when we need him.


LordB said:   I assume most posts said to give the tenant 30 days notice because most states have that as a law where a lease goes month to month automatically and ending month to month requires a month notice (generally put as 1 month meaning if you give notice January 1st-30th they have until Feb 29 to leave).

Evidently the OP has seen a lawyer and this law does not apply in their state/with their lease conditions so they can force the person out sooner.

In many states, there is an automatic provision for how to renew a lease if the lease does not state how to do so. If the lease is clear on what happens after the term, as this one was, most state statutes do not override the lease unless there is a rent control statute that applies. Do you know of any states for which that is not the case? I'm genuinely interested if anyone has experience with this.


FWIW, I think the OP here is being a bit of a jerk, kicking the person while they are down. The OP seems to have contradictory stories claiming he wants her out because she's an alcoholic and lost her job, and then also claiming he wants her out because he wants to rent out the entire house as a unit -- and to be blunt while the lawyer's advice may be legally valid it defies common sense.

Why on Earth would you want to start an eviction preceding? In Maryland, you have to provide a Notice to Vacate for some period of time before you can even evict the person. Its completely unrealistic to think this woman could be out in a day, and probably in a week. Two weeks, maybe, 4 weeks might be more realistic. Why not simply go the tenant and say: "Hey, I know we probably should have discussed this earlier, but I'm looking to rent out the entire house as a unit, because I'm moving to the East Coast for a year, so I'm not going to be able to extend the lease or put you on a month to month, however, since I realize this is rather sudden and the lease is expiring tomorrow (or yesterday as the case may be) and I'm sure you'll need time to vacate, I'm willing to rent you the apartment for one additional month, however you must be out when the month is up." And then if she agrees, put that in writing.

If you are able to evict her, it'll probably take at least 3 weeks, you probably won't have her rent, and it'll cost you money. The other option is you try being nice, get rent from her for an extra month and not have to spend the money evicting her.


hpmax said:   FWIW, I think the OP here is being a bit of a jerk, kicking the person while they are down.

I don't feel good about leading the tenant to believe I was going to extend the lease and then changing my mind when new information about her financial and mental stability came to light, but I am covering my own ass. I've gone way out of my way for this tenant multiple times. I have accepted late rent at least four times (didn't document the lateness properly unfortunately). Yesterday, I got her car keys from her and went and jump started her car which she abandoned at a nearby grocery store parking lot and drove it back to our house so it wouldn't get towed. I've talked with her family member to try to get someone to come help her with her withdrawal and moving out. I've done other things for her in the past as well (changed a tire on her car, gave her a cell phone charger when her's died, helped move furniture), so I feel I'm actually a pretty nice guy.


hpmax said:   
The OP seems to have contradictory stories claiming he wants her out because she's an alcoholic and lost her job, and then also claiming he wants her out because he wants to rent out the entire house as a unit

My plan three weeks ago (before tenant fell off wagon again) was to sign a new 13 month lease with my downstairs tenant and then rent out the upstairs (where I currently live) on a 1 year or 11mo lease, depending on when it is rented, so that when my wife and I get back from her fellowship, both leases are up for renewal at the same time. We could then reoccupy the upstairs and re-lease the downstairs. When the recent events with current downstairs tenant came to light, wife and I decided it would be simpler to try to rent out the house as a whole. That way I only have one tenant, one lease, no concerns about two tenants squabbling with each other about noise, utilities, etc. Less stress, headache, less chance of phone calls from pissed off tenants when I am 2500 miles away.


I agree with hpmax that in a perfect world the best scenario would have been to extend the lease for one additional month (though I know my tenant has no money and can't pay for that month). However, Seattle rental laws are very clear that if a tenant feels that a month-to-month lease is being terminated without "just cause", then they can fight it and I've read a lot of horror stories about tenants dragging this process out for 3 months or more. In fact, at least one poster on this very thread bragged about how they were able to stay rent free for a year because of a botched attempt by a landlord to get them out. The fact is, with a defined term lease ending, the legal landscape is much clearer for me. The year lease has ended, we didn't extend it, she has to leave. I don't care about collecting an additional month's rent, I just want her out ASAP so I can fix up that unit and get the whole house ready for advertising/showing/renting.

I don't plan to kick her out on the street tomorrow, or even within the next two weeks, but I am going to start eviction proceedings soon because my understanding is it takes a while to happen and I need to get the ball rolling to save time and show that I am serious about the lease being over.

Having talked to her and her family member, I think she will move out without a fuss within a week or two without a fuss.


Again, thanks for all your responses.




Disclaimer: By providing links to other sites, FatWallet.com does not guarantee, approve or endorse the information or products available at these sites, nor does a link indicate any association with or endorsement by the linked site to FatWallet.com.

Thanks for visiting FatWallet.com. Join for free to remove this ad.

While FatWallet makes every effort to post correct information, offers are subject to change without notice.
Some exclusions may apply based upon merchant policies.
© 1999-2013