College for the "well off" but not Rich

People that live in the state of California, Michigan, North Carolina, and Virginia are very lucky. I had to pay out of state tuition for 8 years going to Michigan. Would have much less debt having gone to my state university. However, I wouldn't trade it for the world.

My answer to OP's question would be FAFSA. Or, go to a school that'd offer a full ride either on merit or need. When you have 2 or more in college, I'm sure you'd qualify. If not, you may be making too much money(which isn't bad). I know plenty of rich kids who went to schools that'd offer them a full ride rather than going somewhere "better"(all relative) at a cost.

HumDoHamaraDo said:   chripuck said:   HumDoHamaraDo said:   galabar said:   Unless your child gets into an Ivy, Stanford, or MIT, send them to an in-state public school.
Why, there are a lot of non-Ivy Private Colleges that are excellent.

Because you pay for the name, not the education. This is entirely a brand recognition thing. As the OP noted, the college "need" is so over inflated that hiring managers have long since figured out you do not need to hire somebody from South East Tennessee A&T Community College. There's very little learning going on in colleges these days, at least from a real world use case scenario, and since anybody can go to college your best bet is to hire the person who went to the most prestigious and difficult to get in school.

EDIT: And I'll note, this doesn't mean it is a guarantee for a good employee, it's an indicator and should be compared with other components of the people you are looking to hire.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rank...
Lots of non-ivy, non public are quite good and turn out candidates with real-world skills.

Not what he's saying. He's saying all things being equal, why hire someone from a lesser known college when you can get the Harvard/MIT/Stanford/Yale kid for the same price.

In-state tuition here is 5k/semester at the "big" universities, and that assumes they get NOTHING in the way of assistance. 40k for an entire university education. Considering you're willing to let your kids eat 6k/year in out-of-pocket, you're looking at 24k/child total.

If you want them to see the world, send them to Europe for a summer for some of the $900,000 you'll save off your projected million in expenses.

...or let the army send them for free.

mythosaz said:   In-state tuition here is 5k/semester at the "big" universities, and that assumes they get NOTHING in the way of assistance. 40k for an entire university education. Considering you're willing to let your kids eat 6k/year in out-of-pocket, you're looking at 24k/child total.

If you want them to see the world, send them to Europe for a summer for some of the $900,000 you'll save off your projected million in expenses.

...or let the army send them for free.

Unfortunately in NJ the state school, rutgers, is quite expensive. Room/board/tuition I think is near $35-40K, and thats in todays dollars. What state are you in?

HumDoHamaraDo said:   chripuck said:   HumDoHamaraDo said:   galabar said:   Unless your child gets into an Ivy, Stanford, or MIT, send them to an in-state public school.
Why, there are a lot of non-Ivy Private Colleges that are excellent.

Because you pay for the name, not the education. This is entirely a brand recognition thing. As the OP noted, the college "need" is so over inflated that hiring managers have long since figured out you do not need to hire somebody from South East Tennessee A&T Community College. There's very little learning going on in colleges these days, at least from a real world use case scenario, and since anybody can go to college your best bet is to hire the person who went to the most prestigious and difficult to get in school.

EDIT: And I'll note, this doesn't mean it is a guarantee for a good employee, it's an indicator and should be compared with other components of the people you are looking to hire.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rank...
Lots of non-ivy, non public are quite good and turn out candidates with real-world skills.

Yes, there are quite a few "regional Ivy's" on the top of that list which are quite good schools to consider, but if value is the game, if you don't already live in one of these states, consider moving to California (Cal, UCLA, UCSD, Davis, UCSB, Irvine), Virginia (UV, W&M), Michigan (UM), North Carolina (UNC), Georgia (Tech), Washington (UW), Wisconsin (UW-Madison), Pennsylvania (Penn State), Illinois (UIUC), Texas (UT). Many of these state systems have additional campuses that are also quite good. NY/NJ (SUNY, CUNY, Rutgers) and other states have campuses that make the second page (still top 100).

The winner for FW biggest bang for your buck is probably University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill, where in-state tuition runs a cool $7,000/year. Less than the price of a Chevy Volt.

My cousins daughter (lives in TN) HAD TO GO to Embry-Riddle(FL)for an aeronautical degree. She wants to be a commercial pilot. They are in debt over $160K. She could have gotten the same degree for a fraction of the cost with a state school. She already had her pilots license by the age of 15 (used another cousins private plane to learn on). They are the type to "show off" and do things well above their means. The average salary for a starting pilot is under 20K. Sounds pretty silly to me.
Well, stupid people go to college too. She could have gone to the Air force and have been paid to fly high performance aircraft and log thousands of hours for free.

jtroye32 said:   How about getting an associates degree at community college and then finding an entry level position at an employer who will pay for the rest of you're education that pertains to you moving up? Not sure how realistic this option is, but it's a thought.

Unlikely. It's a buyer's market if you're hiring. Why would a company pay for your education when there are so many qualified people who pay for it themselves?

Next time they tell you she was 15 when she got it....call BS. You can't solo until 16 and get your certificate (it's not a license) until your 17.

jhuflyer said:   Next time they tell you she was 15 when she got it....call BS. You can't solo until 16 and get your certificate (it's not a license) until your 17.

I could be incorrect. Perhaps it was that she started flying at 15 and then did it as you said. I don't recall the story exactly.

Train your kids in some sort of sports. They can get an athletic scholarship which pays for tuition and room and board. Also, it is a good backup in case he/she isn't good academically. E.g. If you kid can't get into a med school, a career in the NBA/NFL isn't bad. MLB isn't too bad of an option either although, I wouldn't want my kid to play baseball.

Definitely plan on them attending a state school for their undergraduate degree. They offer a much better deal than the private universities.

Oh, also, this is key: have a frank financial discussion with your children. The 14 year old is old enough for this now as his/her high school record will impact college. Kids have no idea how much their parents have socked away or how much it costs to retire. Explain that if you pay for college at current rates for all three of your children, you and mom will have to work X years longer before retiring. Use real comparisons. ("It will cost more than our house and cars are worth to put the three of you through college.") Tell them that you have some money put away for their college, but that it is not enough. Ask them to make financially wise choices for their "dream school", college lifestyle, academic scholarships, etc.

When my parents paid for my sister's school, she drank too much, skipped class, and got bad grades. To straighten her out, a new rule was instituted: each semester my sister had to take out student loans. She also had to sign a FERPA waiver so that the school could release information to my parents about her grades, attendance and conduct. My parents agreed to take the loans and pay them off for any classes my sister got an A or B in (and a proportionate amount of living expenses), and she got the student loans for any class she got a C in. Excluding her bombed first semester, my sister graduated with a 4.0. It gets real all of a sudden when it's your name on the loan.

Also, make sure your kids work some kind of job in high school. During my first job in high school (an easy gig at Barnes & Noble), I started calculating expenses--and making choices--in reference to "how many hours I had to stand behind a cash register at minimum wage" to make the money it would cost to buy the item I wanted. The prospect of nine hours of standing up on a Saturday ringing up customers while listening to Frank Sinatra (over and over and over again) made a designer shirt suddenly less appealing. After working, you become much more thankful for money your parents give you later, and having their name on a $3,000 loan suddenly translates to something real.

You are planning on doing something very generous for your children, but they may take advantage of your generosity (teenagers are tools). They may also not understand that it is not your obligation to pay for THEIR college. So be sure you also give them the gift of learning financial lessons and to appreciate money. Finally, think about conditioning payment for college on meeting certain goals. Even if your kids aren't going to be Rhodes Scholars, they can still volunteer X hours in high school (that has the added bonus of making them more competitive for merit scholarships). Money from mom and dad should come with conditions. Living at home during the summers should come with conditions. Independence is earned and dependence is not the ideal default. When I decided I was fed up with the conditions my parents put on paying for things for me (telling me where I could and could not drive "my" car they paid the insurance on, requiring me to answer my cellphone they paid for when they called, etc.), I became financially independent.

First be sure they need college. I.E. What will they be majoring in? Will they get a good paying job when they graduate? This is a question frequently asked on FW because it is relevant.

Suggestions

1. Suggest working 6-12 months prior to starting college, especially the oldest children and boys. This can help you have more children in school at the same time. Because boys mature slower than girls(or not at all in some cases) it will put them on a closer level to their peers. You may think you have mature children, but they are no exception. *
2. Ap credits (I'm really split on these. On some level high school should be enjoyed, but at the same time, there is an opportunity to save a large amount of money. Take AP classes and balance these with easy classes such as weight lifting or being an assistant. Be sure to meet language and math requirements so you don't have to pay for them in college.)
3. Community college for 2 years. Your final degree will still be the same.**
4. Sign up for first semester or so on Campus, especially if your children are not social butterflies, then live at home. I say this because, I really feel myself and others I know missed out by not living on campus any.*
5. Always sign up for a full course load. Drop the course or two that will most likely fail.
6. Work full time in the summer. (Part time while in school) ***
7. Take a semester off or just take 6 credit hours (~Two classes). They can make some money and re-evaluate where they are headed.
8. Work, Work, Work... If they don't have a job they need to be looking - Daily. Employers want to see job experience. The sooner you get it, the faster you can move up.
9. Don't forget the end goal. In many fields being involved outside of class is as important as how well you do in school.

* As a bonus, if any of your kids meet someone and get married prior to / during college, then financial aid will increase greatly.

**My state college shares a dorm/ other things with a Community College. Many Community Colleges don't have the option of living on Campus.

*** Types of jobs:
1. Easy. Certain security guard type jobs, etc. Some of these you may have a great deal of time that can be spent on homework, etc.
2. Experience / Qualifying. - You'll mostly have a shot at these during the summer, however if you have a shot
at ANYTHING related to the field of interest that will let you work part time, then take it.
3. Meet People. Shopping stores / Food related, etc. This one may not be as important as the other 2, but I would highly recommend working a few such jobs especially if not living on Campus.

a Money based job may be good during the summer, but only if something experience related isn't available.

Op, I suggest you work as hard as possible over the next few years. Invest heavily in your retirement, paying off your home and being debt free. Be financially secure going into the college years, but without a huge pool of cash the school is going to ask for.

You might consider whether going into College Years would be a convenient time to lower your income, start your own business, etc.

bullcity said:   I went to a top public for free through a combination of merit-based scholarships (one federal scholarship, a National Merit and an institution-based scholarship). Institution-based scholarships are the best bet.

Here's the thing: most people want to go to the best school they can get in to. If you just eke across the admissions line, you are not a competitive candidate for scholarships. I could have gone to an Ivy on loans, a top public on 75% scholarship (just counting the institutional scholarship), or a lower-ranked public for free plus a stipend. For your children to get scholarships, they should apply to schools where they are above the top 25% for SAT/ACT and GPA. Is there a trade-off in opportunities based on name of the institution? Sure. But how much that tradeoff impacts your children is really up to how your children perform, what they want to do, and how they take advantage of opportunities. There are lots of benefits to being the super star standout at a smaller/lower-ranked school over just another burnout at a higher ranked school. If your children are planning to go to law school, for example, the two biggest admission factors are LSAT score and GPA at undergrad institution. There's a bump for the Ivies, but the grad school would usually rather have the kickass GPA to put on their US News stats. (And, if they're planning on going to law school/med school/etc., then minimizing undergrad debt should be a top priority.)

Another point: I also came in with over two full years worth of credits (although stayed for the full four years since it was free) through AP/IB/community college while in HS. If I (or my parents) had been paying sticker price, I would have graduated two years earlier. That said, there's a benefit to staying with your peer group and having the college experience for the full 4 years. I would have regretted graduating early.

What he/she said. I had the raw numbers/scores to compete for ivy league schools for both med. school and college, but ended up going to a smaller private college and a public med. school- I would have gotten jack for scholarship at fancy pants place, but I got full tuition college/med. school scholarships by playing it smart- the difference in my debt level with that strategy is about 100k easily. Also in all my college and beyond education, I have been massively frugal- easily another 50k in debt saving versus my peers- so doing it right versus doing it wrong was a 150k+ decision. Pick your college well, work hard, don't live it up, and you will avoid lots of debt/bills.

Save 3k a year per kid from birth and the rest is up to them? Sounds more than fair...

rpi1967 said:   Private colleges have one advantage over public colleges, generally higher graduation rates. American studies major was designed as a promise to parents to get their child out in 4 years. In Texas, some universities graduate less than 10% in 4 years.
College now resembles a box of cereal that quietly shrinks in size,ie a semester was 16 weeks plus 1 or 2 week exam period. Now it is 13 weeks including exams. Students used to average 15 credits hours per semester, now it is often 12 credit hours.
Just consider that the 50 minute college lecture in a private college costs more than the expensive seats on Broadway. (25ksemester/144lectures)*2hours show = $347 most Broadway shows tickets are less.

One thing from my person experience. Univ of Cal system seemed to bend over backwards to accept the AP credits as meeting the credit requirements. With enough AP credits and may be a summer at the college, it should be possible to graduate in 3 years. This would knock down your costs by 25%.

unimeg said:   blackie7955 said:   I would like to start a thread on the recommendation of another poster. Basically how do people who make a good living save for college? I have 3 kids as I have mentioned in previous posts, college for all 3 could easily be the better part of a million dollars when they go. I will have kids in college 2017-2027, and 3 of those years I will have 2 in college.

Here are my issues with college:

I don’t think it is right to pay for college with mostly loans, or any loans at all really. This is especially true for a liberal arts degree; I make an exception for professional and doctoral programs. This is obviously impossible for 90+% of the population. My feeling is that college is overpriced because the government will guarantee loans, and people will take them. This creates fake demand and pushed the price up. I am 100% sure this is happening, but there is really nothing I can do about it. With 3 kids I am being “squeezed”!
How the F*** does anyone of my generation save that kind of money! The stock market has been flat for 10 years, and interest rates don’t even cover inflation. Even if you make good money and save a lot ($20,000yr for 3 kids) for college, you still will fall short. Basically if you want your kids to go to a private college, or in my case (University of Michigan obviously not private) you need to be rich, not just well off.

My understanding of the system is that if you have no money and are smart enough to get into the school you can get a need based scholarship. If you are very wealthy than you have no issues I guess. But if you are doing OK, and saved and scrimped for years, college will cost you everything!

So basically the point of my thread is to toss around ideas on how people can intelligently mitigate the cost of college. Ideas and strategies that can help people with money, just not all the money in the world.

One thing that I never see people on Fat Wallet mention is "early enrollment" type options during high school. My boyfriend did this: went full time to our local community college for his junior and senior year of high school. In Ohio, the state pays not just tuition but also all fees and buys all of your books. He was still a member of our marching band etc. I'm sure some kids would feel they were missing out, but a LOT of kids I went to school with did this either part or full time. He then spent 2 years at an instate public school (Ohio guarantees credit transfer from comm. colleges to public schools) and now is 23 and makes a substantial salary in IT. Furthermore, when he went to apply to his first job, one of the reasons they cited in interviewing him is that they were impressed that he attended college during high school years. He feels that the education he received was roughly equivalent: good teachers and bad both places, and it's all what you make of it. If you have a really good high school this might be different, but ours was mostly adequate and decreasing AP options every year. Also worth noting that he went from an A/B average to a 4.0 and then graduated college with something like a 3.9. Worth investigating at least.

You know, I just remembered something else this morning. In Ohio, I think you can actually go to ANY college and the high school pays for it, and for 2 or 4 years. I know one person who did community college for freshman & sophomore year and then our local private liberal arts for junior and senior, and filled with a few classes at our high school. They'll also pay for summer classes, just not books. I have another friend who auditioned for practice to the U. of Cinci's dance program our junior year, got accepted with a full ride, and so went there for his senior year and the state paid for all his books. I graduated hs in 2007, so maybe some of this has changed w/the Republicans in control, but not to my knowledge. In other words, everyone move to Ohio!

I hope I'm not being selfish, but I'm not putting away the equivelent of a mortgage payment for each child to attend college. We live in the Philadelphia suburbs and within a 1/2 hour drive there are at least a dozen different colleges, from communities to state schools to ivies.

Financially, my contribution to their college fund will be free (or really really cheap) room and board while they attend school. Plus they have a few courses paid for by a 529 to test out the waters with.

fatxman said:   Train your kids in some sort of sports. They can get an athletic scholarship which pays for tuition and room and board. Also, it is a good backup in case he/she isn't good academically. E.g. If you kid can't get into a med school, a career in the NBA/NFL isn't bad. MLB isn't too bad of an option either although, I wouldn't want my kid to play baseball.

Great idea! Look at Jeremy Lin from Harvard. He didn't make it into medical school, and is doing great in basketball. And if sports fail, they can go to Hollywood and work as waiters and waitresses and become actors and singers, so don't overlook their drama and choir classes. And if your kid can't get through college, it's ok, since he or she can just drop out and start their own tech business (think Mark, Steve, Bill, etc.)

likely no one knows your kids as well as you. for everyone else:

--get to know your kids and their aptitudes as best you can (from an early age, if possible). if you can see they have what it takes to be an engineer, doctor, or lawyer, etc., support them adequately (not blindly) along the way and they'll be very well off for it. if they are more vocationally-aligned, support them that way as well. love them blindly along the way but do not fund them blindly. no one can predict these outcomes perfectly, but being confident of your investments in their education will serve you and them better than blank checks.

--most kids probably do appreciate that college/higher ed isn't a magical transformation. it's probably an equal--if not greater--problem that their parents believe their kid just going to college will then succeed in life, regardless of price tag. they need to have intrinsic value of education, work ethic, etc., instilled in them from a young age. that's what parents are designed to do best and where they should help their children succeed the most. if they don't do this, i agree in pulling their parent cards.

--regarding your initial question, just save a modest amount in 529s for your kids. whatever you can contribute, do it. make them take out reasonable sums of loans depending on what careers they can reasonably pursue given their aptitudes. don't expect to bear all the burden yourself. if they become college-dropout business gurus, you can be proud and have saved tons of money.

--most importantly, teach them responsible finances and how to read and learn about their world. kids probably won't learn fatwallet economics in high school (may be a good thing), but they can get interested in personal financial responsibility by the habits and lessons of their parents. teach your kids to be frugal and compassionate.