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lol, what is the difference between this and import/export? People/companies do it all the time.

illuminato said:   cristinaaaron said:   This is another reason why our kids are running up huge student loan bills to pay for college. A kid taking a full load of classes can easily spend $2k a year on just books now......if you are in a specialty like medicine or engineering, you could easily spend several times that. It is unfair that someone in Asia can buy these same books for 10% of what you pay.

If I own something, why can't I control how it's sold in different markets?


Sure you can... while you still actually own it. Once you sold your text book to me its my property and I should be able to do with it as I please(including resell it).

robstrash said:   germanpope said:   time and time again, good ideas blow up when people push them too far

Forget the fact that the publisher sells the same exact item for a fraction of the cost in another country. It's somehow this guys fault for pushing too far??


In the USSR, in the 1980s, the only way to get intellectual written material that was not approved by the state was photocopying.

People would get 1 or 2 copies of an interesting book, and start photocopying. Sometimes, you would get the 5th or 10th generation photocopy (the original being the 1st copy, the photocopy from that being the 2nd generation).

The have bought books sold in Asia in my grad school days. I say, if I can buy it on the Moon, I can bring it to US. If I want to sell it, that's my right.

Copyright law/code is grossly out of date and has not evolved with the times. I agree that once a book/movie/piece of music (or even iTunes collection) is purchased, I should have the right to determine what happens to that item. I should be able to sell it, burn it, microwave it--whatever I want, as long as I do not reproduce it in order to share or sell more than the one copy I purchased.

Regarding textbooks--sometimes faculty has little control over which edition to use. Especially today with integrated technology, if the old technology is not sold/supported, the old edition of the book is useless to students who purchase it. I try hard to match my outgoing students with incoming students who need the book--then my outgoing student gets more $$$ for the book than s/he would from the bookstore. We are not supposed to tell our students to buy their books on Amazon, etc., but any student who doesn't know to look elsewhere has bigger issues.

tolamapS said:   In the USSR, in the 1980s, the only way to get intellectual written material that was not approved by the state was photocopying.

People would get 1 or 2 copies of an interesting book, and start photocopying.


Of course owning an unregistered photocopier/mimeo machine was highly illegal, as well as copying unapproved material on a registered machine. Both could get you harsh prision time, not just a visit from the copyright police.

tolamapS said:   In the USSR, in the 1980s, the only way to get intellectual written material that was not approved by the state was photocopying.

People would get 1 or 2 copies of an interesting book, and start photocopying.


Of course, owning an unregistered photocopier/mimeo machine was highly illegal, as well as copying unapproved material on a registered machine. Both could get you harsh prision time, not just a visit from the copyright police. Subversion could cost you your life.

illuminato said:   dumroo said:   "free trade" - right...

Another thought - if a product was produced in another country, how does one claim copyright or patent protection or ... in the US? Should only the law of the land where the item was produced apply?


we're talking about an intellectual property, so the actual origin of production would seem trivial (I'm assuming by "production" you meant something other than the conceptual work that went into the book).


One can't have it both ways - When one says the copyright law applies to all locales (that is the basis of the lawsuit) but the first-doctrine of the same law does not, it seems a little like "pick and choose".

BocephusSTL said:   DamnoIT said:   I think a revolt of a massive scale would occur if this were enforced and enacted. Technically you could not have garage sales or sell nothing second hand. That effects way to many people for them to be able to easily implement. Now if this was just scoped down to one particular product or good it gets by.

The government would just hire 10s of thousands of new TSA agents and send them out to bust up yard sales and flea markets.


Job growth!

tolamapS said:   robstrash said:   germanpope said:   time and time again, good ideas blow up when people push them too far

Forget the fact that the publisher sells the same exact item for a fraction of the cost in another country. It's somehow this guys fault for pushing too far??


In the USSR, in the 1980s, the only way to get intellectual written material that was not approved by the state was photocopying.

People would get 1 or 2 copies of an interesting book, and start photocopying. Sometimes, you would get the 5th or 10th generation photocopy (the original being the 1st copy, the photocopy from that being the 2nd generation).

The have bought books sold in Asia in my grad school days. I say, if I can buy it on the Moon, I can bring it to US. If I want to sell it, that's my right.


I have first hand experience of similar nature. I believe I was in my sixth or seventh semester of BE Computer Science (in Karnataka, India) and our Software Engineering subject was based on the H Freeman's Software engineering book. For the fist 2 months we had only 1 copy of the book - So we split it into chapters and photocopied into 30 copies. When the "imported" versions arrived they were like 2500 Rupees (~50 USD in 1994) equivalent of 3 months of college living expenses - nobody bought the book.

I still have a stack of Oracle 8i and 9i books bought from Pune's famous ABC (Appa Balavant Chowk) - cheap Indian revisions of the book published by the Asian division of the US publisher with gold stamps saying for sale in India and Asia only.

This kid made millions, then flushed it down the drain paying for his outrageously overpriced U.S. cellphone service.

I admire the kid. He stuck up to the big guys. NO WAY this will stick. 99% of stuff is made overseas.

I bought half my engineering books from overseas. It was cheaper to buy them overseas and keep them than to buy the used edition and resell it.

Also, having actually written part of an academic textbook, the royalties from most textbooks is very very little(in my experience, and from what I've heard from others). It's generally done more as an academic publishing thing, than a profit maker. The most popular common books used in lower levels classes MIGHT make the writers some reasonable money, but the rest are lucky to break even. So I'd imagine that the sales in the western world keep things afloat- and they offer an indian/whatever version just to try to keep people from copying, and to try to make something from india. If all the book sales were at indian prices, the textbook industry would implode.

RushnRockt said:   BocephusSTL said:   DamnoIT said:   I think a revolt of a massive scale would occur if this were enforced and enacted. Technically you could not have garage sales or sell nothing second hand. That effects way to many people for them to be able to easily implement. Now if this was just scoped down to one particular product or good it gets by.

The government would just hire 10s of thousands of new TSA agents and send them out to bust up yard sales and flea markets.


Gotta know your agencies. It would most likely be DHS, but certainly not TSA agents. TSA agents will be hired to read through books when coming back into US and seeing where they were printed.


Not TSA, but CBP.

This is simple and legal. If you had just one Economic class there are 2 words that describe this:

Price Elasticity

aka "How much are you willing to pay??"

RushnRockt said:   BocephusSTL said:   DamnoIT said:   I think a revolt of a massive scale would occur if this were enforced and enacted. Technically you could not have garage sales or sell nothing second hand. That effects way to many people for them to be able to easily implement. Now if this was just scoped down to one particular product or good it gets by.

The government would just hire 10s of thousands of new TSA agents and send them out to bust up yard sales and flea markets.


Gotta know your agencies. It would most likely be DHS, but certainly not TSA agents. TSA agents will be hired to read through books when coming back into US and seeing where they were printed.

TSA agents are now being deployed outside of airports, at train & subway stations, bus terminals, roadside VIPR teams, political events and even high school dances. It's way beyond ridiculous.

eandtee said:   As a father, with kids in college (It's my daughter who uses the vocal scores, certainly not me ) I'd really like to know why US students get stuck with the high prices.

Because they can pay the higher prices. The best bargain right now in higher education, if you're a US high school student with good grades, is to go to Oxford, Cambridge, or one of the other top-tier UK schools. Not so much because the tuition is less (although that is true, generally, when you compare one of these schools to our top-tier universities), but because there's a tonne of scholarship money available. The worst thing about public education right now is that we call loans "financial aid". No, loans are not "financial aid"--they're loans. And it's this education debt that will be burying this country over the next 20 years.

vishalj77 said:   Books, generic meds, hell everything is cheaper overseas (most countries) The only thing that's cheap here is fast food

...and it is only because it is heavily subsidized by US government, that is American taxpayers!

However, you are completely wrong - besides the things you mentioned, everything else is actually MORE expensive overseas - cars, gas, electronics, clothes. This combined with extremely low US tax rates makes possible a so-called "American way of life" - living in Mcmansions in exurbs, driving large SUVs, buying 60 pairs of shoes, 20 jeans etc. That is consumerism at its finest.

RushnRockt said:   BocephusSTL said:   DamnoIT said:   I think a revolt of a massive scale would occur if this were enforced and enacted. Technically you could not have garage sales or sell nothing second hand. That effects way to many people for them to be able to easily implement. Now if this was just scoped down to one particular product or good it gets by.

The government would just hire 10s of thousands of new TSA agents and send them out to bust up yard sales and flea markets.


Gotta know your agencies. It would most likely be DHS, but certainly not TSA agents. TSA agents will be hired to read through books when coming back into US and seeing where they were printed.


You've got a lot of faith in these agencies if you think the agents can read.

American publishers look more like a publishing mafia to me, churning new editions every other year.
As a matter of fact, I haven't spend a dime on books while getting my BS in math in Russia (well, not exactly correct - I bought one book for $10 from our philosophy professor just to get a passing grade). All the lectures were custom made by faculty and practice books with exercises were supplied to every student by our university's library. I didn't care that they were all made in USSR 20-30 years ago and none of our professor either - how would math change in 20 years? Here, the only justification for newer book editions in STEM subjects are still fat profits for publishing corporations.
Thumbs up for the guy!

P.S. All this did not prevent me from getting PhD here, in US, studying on Chinese and Indian editions

JohnGalt69 said:   Heck, we'll be lucky if Disney copyrights EVER expire.
While copyright laws certainly need to change, there is absolutely no "need" for Disney "copyrights" to expire.

riznick said:   JohnGalt69 said:   Heck, we'll be lucky if Disney copyrights EVER expire.
While copyright laws certainly need to change, there is absolutely no "need" for Disney "copyrights" to expire.
I think he's alluding to the parody use of Mickey Mouse and certain sunset standards on exclusive usage...which are being routinely breached by the corporate influence on our political sphere.

That leads to one law for the mundane and one for the privileged. You're good with that?

The book publishers know they can't charge USA prices in these developing countries , and if they tried , the students would just get one book and photocopy/scan it. So the publishers made the decision it's better to sell the books in these countries for a tiny profit , so people would actually purchase them rather than photocopy or scan them

I teach introduction to political science every semester. I get to choose the textbook, but the school ***REQUIRES***that (1) I must use a textbook even though I'd prefer not to and (2) I must always require the most recent edition of the textbook. So what I do is keep the copy I bought 3 years ago and announce to the class that while I have to list the most up to date version of the textbook ($175) the older editions are fine.

I also mention that I just happen to be in an office near a photocopy machine, and if anyone wants to come "borrow" my extra copy of the text I leave in the paper slot on my office door....that would be fine with me. Surprisingly, no one has stolen the extra book, and the book store keeps wondering why they aren't selling books to students in my section (apparently they keep track of this).

itsausername said:   riznick said:   JohnGalt69 said:   Heck, we'll be lucky if Disney copyrights EVER expire.
While copyright laws certainly need to change, there is absolutely no "need" for Disney "copyrights" to expire.
I think he's alluding to the parody use of Mickey Mouse and certain sunset standards on exclusive usage...which are being routinely breached by the corporate influence on our political sphere.

That leads to one law for the mundane and one for the privileged. You're good with that?

I don't know what he is alluding to. I was just adding to the topic he brought up. While it might be nice to see some copyrights expire, I see no need for them to expire. I do, however, feel that copyright laws are outdated and should be changed.

Your statement is not very clear. Should I be good with what?

riznick said:   itsausername said:   riznick said:   JohnGalt69 said:   Heck, we'll be lucky if Disney copyrights EVER expire.
While copyright laws certainly need to change, there is absolutely no "need" for Disney "copyrights" to expire.
I think he's alluding to the parody use of Mickey Mouse and certain sunset standards on exclusive usage...which are being routinely breached by the corporate influence on our political sphere.

That leads to one law for the mundane and one for the privileged. You're good with that?

I don't know what he is alluding to. I was just adding to the topic he brought up. While it might be nice to see some copyrights expire, I see no need for them to expire. I do, however, feel that copyright laws are outdated and should be changed.

Your statement is not very clear. Should I be good with what?


I think you are being purposely dense here. The implication of Disney copyright never expiring is that the copyright lobby has yet again managed to extend copyright protection length, as has been done several times before. You appear to be well aware of that to begin with, so I am not sure why go through the trouble of making it sound like it's just about Disney and not the overall state of affair with copyright laws.

dumroo said:   "free trade" - right...

Another thought - if a product was produced in another country, how does one claim copyright or patent protection or ... in the US? Should only the law of the land where the item was produced apply?


USA has successfully lobbied the World Trade Organization (WTA) to incorporate patent rights exceptions into all international trade treaties. Basically it allows any country B to make it illegal to import any manufactured product from country A to country B if the product is covered by patent laws in country B and you don't have permission of the patent holder to import the product. USA definitely has such laws on its books : without them you could manufacture any patented product (without the patent holders permission) in some obscure country Z where the inventor forgot to patent the product and then import it to USA.

I wonder why the USA does not have similar laws covering copyrighted works. Rather than changing the law regarding the first sale doctrine Congress is more likely to extend the same import ban on copyrighted works as there already exists on patented manufactured products.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   The book publishers know they can't charge USA prices in these developing countries , and if they tried , the students would just get one book and photocopy/scan it. So the publishers made the decision it's better to sell the books in these countries for a tiny profit , so people would actually purchase them rather than photocopy or scan them

Publishers could easily use paper with light-absorbing coating which would prevent anyone from photocopying or scanning the books. Basically the same way you coat a check so when it is printed, it shows up with "COPY" and "VOID" on it......just coat the whole page and let the guys print out black pages or use it to watermark in naughty pictures or something.

does that mean, you cant sell Prius (wholly made in Japan) in second-hand car market :-D

You do realize that your actions, while possibly benefiting students, directly harm your employer? You do realize that by indicating there is a copy machine that you are influencing youth to commit copyright infractions? WONDERFUL. You must be an ethics professor, huh?
Now let me do you a solid. 1) Offer to purchase textbooks from students for one dollar more than the price that the bookstore will give students. 2) Offer to sell the textbooks to students in the following semester for the price that you paid the students the previous semester (you do not make a profit, but the each and every student actually makes $1 from "buying" the textbook AND the environment is saved from needless copies being made) Of course, you do understand the importance of YOU not making a profit as doing such most likely would violate your employer contract... magika said:   I teach introduction to political science every semester. I get to choose the textbook, but the school ***REQUIRES***that (1) I must use a textbook even though I'd prefer not to and (2) I must always require the most recent edition of the textbook. So what I do is keep the copy I bought 3 years ago and announce to the class that while I have to list the most up to date version of the textbook ($175) the older editions are fine.

I also mention that I just happen to be in an office near a photocopy machine, and if anyone wants to come "borrow" my extra copy of the text I leave in the paper slot on my office door....that would be fine with me. Surprisingly, no one has stolen the extra book, and the book store keeps wondering why they aren't selling books to students in my section (apparently they keep track of this).

It's hard for me to be sympathetic to this guy, he had to know what he was doing wrong. Here is an example statement: "This edition may be sold only in those countries to which it is consigned by Prentice-Hall International. It is not to be re-exported and its not for sale in the USA, Mexico, or Canada." Here's another: "This edition is manufactured in India and is authorized for sale only in India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives." And another... "This Eastern Economy Edition is the authorized, complete and unabridged photo-offset reproduction of the latest American edition specifically published and priced for sale only in Bangladesh, Burma, Cambodia, China, Fiji, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Nepal, Pakistan, Philippines, Singapore, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, and Vietnam."

They are very clearly claiming that this is a low priced copy explicitly made for sale in certain countries and not the US. These editions are virtually always lower quality copies of American textbooks (some are slightly inferior copies, some are very inferior). It's one thing when you buy one of these overseas come to the US, use it and sell it. It's another when you are buying them in bulk explicitly and solely for the purpose of reselling it which is CLEARLY in contradiction to the publisher's desires. The publisher would have never sold the books had the buyer(s) not misrepresented themselves as legitimate buyers who intended to abide by the statement at the beginning of the book. The book publishers couldn't sell any books at first world prices in the third world and they couldn't make any money selling books at third world prices in the first world -- so they have to discriminate by location.

What hpmax said.

The books WERE originally sold in the proper country (to this guys relatives). They paid the proper price in their home country , as they were the original buyers.

They were then resold . The issue is whether a company can restrict the subsequent resale of items .

It would be an absolutely ridiculous result if a company can restrict resale after the first buyer. I often buy Mercedes cars , originally made in Germany . I resell them for a profit . Am i
Going to need their written permission to do this? Or is the manufacturer only going to grant permission if they get a cut of The subsequent sale?

Check your eBay messages guys. Here's what one of mine said:


We're writing today to encourage you to consider joining eBay Main Street, a grassroots organization of eBay members taking action to promote smart government policy and protect the rights and interests of ecommerce sellers like you.

Right now, eBay Main Street is working to protect an entrepreneurial eBay seller who will be at the center of a case in front of the US Supreme Court later this month. This eBay seller, a student putting himself through college by selling authentic books that he legally purchased, was challenged by a publisher clinging to an old business model that relies on restricting trade to geographic borders. The outcome of this case could have significant implications for your rights as a seller. Learn more and join other eBay sellers on eBay Main Street and make your voice heard.

Sincerely,
eBay Government Relations Team

i'm really interested in hearing the outcome of the ReDigi case; can digital content be resold? -- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19842851

I always buy new textbooks from the campus bookstore. employer reimbursement. But, it I were paying for my own textbooks, buying the international edition is a no-brainer. surprised this isn't more common.

It's also hard to be a free man. It's easier to be a slave and accept whatever your master tells you as the absolute truth.


hpmax said:   It's hard for me to be sympathetic to this guy, he had to know what he was doing wrong. Here is an example statement: "This edition may be sold only in those countries to which it is consigned by Prentice-Hall International. It is not to be re-exported and its not for sale in the USA, Mexico, or Canada." Here's another: "This edition is manufactured in India and is authorized for sale only in India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and the Maldives." And another... "This Eastern Economy Edition is the authorized, complete and unabridged photo-offset reproduction of the latest American edition specifically published and priced for sale only in Bangladesh, Burma, Cambodia, China, Fiji, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Nepal, Pakistan, Philippines, Singapore, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, and Vietnam."

They are very clearly claiming that this is a low priced copy explicitly made for sale in certain countries and not the US. These editions are virtually always lower quality copies of American textbooks (some are slightly inferior copies, some are very inferior). It's one thing when you buy one of these overseas come to the US, use it and sell it. It's another when you are buying them in bulk explicitly and solely for the purpose of reselling it which is CLEARLY in contradiction to the publisher's desires. The publisher would have never sold the books had the buyer(s) not misrepresented themselves as legitimate buyers who intended to abide by the statement at the beginning of the book. The book publishers couldn't sell any books at first world prices in the third world and they couldn't make any money selling books at third world prices in the first world -- so they have to discriminate by location.

The way I see it, the notice, particularly something like: "... it is not to be re-exported and its not for sale in the USA, Mexico, or Canada," pretty clearly is intended to cover both the initial seller and all future sellers. Many service providers have onerous terms of service, and you have a choice: use the service and accept lousy terms, or do not use the service. You don't get to pick and choose and claim that you like the service but not the terms. The way I see it you bought a book at a ridiculously low price in exchange for not having the right to sell it in certain countries. If you want to sell it in those countries, you can buy a higher quality version of the same book at a higher price. Also, courts hold businesses and individuals to different standards, an individual can get away with things that a business can't because businesses are presumed to be experts and individuals are not necessarily. If you are making millions of dollars, its hard not to suggest this was a business.

As SiS says, the only real question is whether the notice in the front of the book is legally enforceable or not. I don't see how there's any point whatsoever of applying it only to the first buyer. The first buyer is typically a distributor, and the second buyer is typically a bookstore. So if it only applies to the first buyer, it doesn't even apply to the bookstores, let alone individuals.

The defendant violated the most fundamental principle of law. "Pigs get slapped; hogs get slaughtered."

These College Professors, charge astronomical prices for their books. Books that the captive students
are forced to buy. College kids are broke and usually work at McDonalds. This guy is taking
advantage of the kids controlling the sole distribution point for these books. The Publisher
already received his payment once for all of the books. He just wants to be able to RAPE the
College kids more so he is crying foul when some clever young man, used American ingenuity
to to help the students and receive a nice profit in the exchange. This guy may be from
Thailand, but he sounds like he has more of an American spirit than these pencil pushing
Beauracratic, file cabinet waving schmucks.



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