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Just went under contract today. House is way below market for the neighborhood and will need the following;

-new plumbing
-new furnace and ducting
-minor roof repair
-most of the electrical rewired
-replacement of the basement ceiling
-renovation of both bathrooms
-downstairs kitchen built
-sand and refinish 900sqft of hardwood
-some painting
-replacement of 14 windows including basement (brick and lathe, frames screwed in place no flashing mess etc)
-minor yard work
-about 40 foot of fence replaced

Structurally the property is in spectacular shape. Inspection is still pending but I'm versed well enough to know what it will yield. Basement will be a 900 sqft rental, 2 bed about $1000/mo. Already has egress windows, CO detectors, etc to meet code and separate entrance. Upstairs will be 1000 sqft 2 bed for us. Price will end up ~$210k including closing costs. I'm planning to do most of the work myself. The first month the property will be vacant so I can get the furnace, floors, and baths finished. We will move in and I will finish the basement. Plumbing will be spectacularly easy because pulling the basement ceiling out will leave everything exposed, including electrical (full basement), and PEX is a breeze. Trying to figure out the best way to finance everything. I would prefer to avoid 203k because I will have to pay licensed contractors to do the work when I intend to do most of it myself. Got a $12k credit card from Home Depot with a promo rate of 0% on all purchases for the first 24 months if paid in full, planning to use it for the supplies and balance transfer if the deadline gets close with a high balance. After the basement is finished our monthly balance on the mortgage will be ~$550.

Any feedback appreciated. First time home purchase. Not sure if we will keep or flip the house, updated houses same sqft in the neighborhood go for $285k easily, and this should be less than $20k total as long as the roof is in good condition.

Once we close I will post pictures, and as I finish the work I will update with before and after.

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Agreed. I've seen asbestos tile in houses built as new as 1992.

alamo11 (Dec. 16, 2012 @ 2:59p) |

I bought a decent one that has a neoprene wrap, did a bunch of demo, and blew out grey boogers. Its going to get upgrad... (more)

CptSavAHo (Dec. 16, 2012 @ 3:41p) |

Floors finished today. Spent $220 for the equipment rental and sanding supplies. Stain, finish, putty and applicators ... (more)

CptSavAHo (Dec. 20, 2012 @ 4:50p) |

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I'm guessing $40k just based on your list and conservative estimates. I own a remodeling company, so I'm not just pulling that out of my ass. Much less if you do it yourself. What's your number?

Shoot for the comparable Lowe's card as well and finance things that way too. Do you have both stores in your area? Create accounts with suppliers and building material companies and apply for their financing. For example, don't just get your windows through Home Depot. And buy lumber and sheetrock from the source. They will deliver and even boom crane it into windows on the second story if you tell them where to put it.

As always, be prepared for everything to cost 2x as much and take 2x as long

nullterm said:   I'm guessing $40k just based on your list and conservative estimates. I own a remodeling company, so I'm not just pulling that out of my ass. Much less if you do it yourself. What's your number?

Shoot for the comparable Lowe's card as well and finance things that way too. Do you have both stores in your area? Create accounts with suppliers and building material companies and apply for their financing. For example, don't just get your windows through Home Depot. And buy lumber and sheetrock from the source. They will deliver and even boom crane it into windows on the second story if you tell them where to put it.

As always, be prepared for everything to cost 2x as much and take 2x as long


I'm shooting for $20k. Furnace and ducting will be contractor ($5kish). I will run all the electrical when I do the plumbing, a friend is a master electrician or whatever they call it he will come in and hook it up and certify it once I get all the wiring in place (legit job, arc fault breakers and such all to current code). I have Lowes, Home Depot, and a massive ReStore (Hab4Human) nearby. I worked on the 1900 victorian I rent in exchange for rent credit and that definitely hit the 2x time and 2x cost rule. This should be much easier most of the work is cosmetic and the full size basement makes access very easy. I'm solid on plumbing, tile, drywall, painting, and carpet which is the bulk of what needs to be done. It will be first time with refinishing hardwood floors and installing cabinets for the basement kitchen.

Good luck! Sounds like you know what you're doing so that sweat equity will slash the cost. Installing cabinets is easy but refinishing hardwoods is something I never got the bahlz to do myself!

gonna have to pull a permit on that plumbing...i doubt a licensed guy who isnt your friend would allow you to do that work, so tack that cost on top. if you dont get it permitted, the electrical inspector OR the mechanical inspector (if you have those) might make waves. i've had a 2-unit entirely replumbed and brought to code for about $7k which was on the low end...that included gas lines, vent stacks, supply lines and all fixture installs.

do you really not have $20k available to pay for this rehab?

how old is the place?

You don't need a permit if he is not changing the plumbing in most areas. Repairs, like replacing worn pipes, are a non-permit issue.

Permits are usually required when making changes to the outline/structure. That is also the case in major junctions/units like replacing the electrical panel, water heater, furnace, etc...

Make sure to get the insulation for the pipes as well. Even the $1 for 5foot stuff is fine. My dad thought since it was pex he be fine and froze a pipe.
For wiring I would run 12ga. Leave you with options and also headroom. Also if you are runnign wires think about ruinning Cat5/6 as well. Can be used for phone or network.
And make sure to check/upgrade the outside drainage and check the basement out. It may be dry now but when the first storm hits all the money you put down there is gone.

CptSavAHo said:   ...this should be less than $20k total as long as the roof is in good condition.Having put a fair amount of sweat equity into several homes myself and hired contractors for major remodeling projects as well, I'd be surprised if you could do all that work for twice your estimate. Good luck.

As for financing, it really depends on how long you take to complete the work and what kind of cash flow you have/expect. Is this a one year project that you want to pay off over five years, or can you fund it as you go, or do you need longer term financing? Your financing solution really depends on a lot of other details.

As for other constructive ideas, this thread has a lot of good ideas that would apply to you as well:

Looking for Tips on how to save as Owner/Builder of New Construction

CptSavAHo said:   Just went under contract today. House is way below market for the neighborhood and will need the following;

-new plumbing

no permit required, with the full basement its easy access to everything, will be cost of lines, insulation, and joints only ~$650.

-new furnace and ducting

this will go to a contractor, estimates $5k-6.5k for 94% unit and new ducting, again ducting is easily accessed from the basement

-minor roof repair

will have an estimate on Monday, should be less than $350. Its pretty much replace a half dozen missing shingles and make sure all of the flashing is intact, from the ground it looks like the fireplace has split flashing I want it replaced with a single piece.

-most of the electrical rewired

cost of wiring, junction boxes, outlets, breakers, and breaker panel. Expecting materials in the $2k range. No permit required but a final inspection is.

-replacement of the basement ceiling

cheap, only about 1/3 of it will be taken down so approx 300 sqft of drywall

-renovation of both bathrooms

largely cosmetic, upstairs needs tile redone and new vanity and paint, downstairs needs a ventilation fan, tub, shower enclosure, new vanity total ~$3k

-downstairs kitchen built

used cabinets, sinks, countertops from local ReStore, maybe $650 total.

-sand and refinish 900sqft of hardwood

not sure on the cost here with equipment rental and finishing supplies, probably ~$1500

-some painting

$450 in paint (15 gal ultta premium) and tools

-replacement of 14 windows including basement (brick and lathe, frames screwed in place no flashing mess etc)

average about $100 per window with good quality vinyl windows. Most of the windows are small, 24x24 or less.

-minor yard work

recycled railroad ties and bricks, mostly free

-about 40 foot of fence replaced

no idea, never done fencing before



Added some details so cost estimates can be judged more accurately.

Permit not required for plumbing work its a 'repair'. Basement is sound, this is in the southwest not much rain. I can disclose more about the property location and pictures once we close. The big kicker so far has been the furnace. I don't want the sellers to replace it I want concessions to do it myself, we also only get provisional insurance until the unit is replaced, a max of 30 days after close.

Planning to do furnace, floor, plumbing, bathrooms and basement work in the first 2 months, I will leave conduit for the electrical when I redo the ceiling. Windows, electrical, yard, fence and painting will wait until the summer.

Inspection with radon/roof/furnace/ducting/sewer line as well on Monday. Bad radon test will be a no-go.

And we just found out the furnace will not allow us to obtain a standard insurance policy since its older than 25 years. Negotiating now to see what happens next...

Expect to spend a lot longer on the work than you think it will.

this sounds like far more than 40k worth of work.

Also, you may want to consider a streamlined 203k loan - you can't get as much money for the reno, but you can do the work yourself.

valueinvestor said:   Expect to spend a lot longer on the work than you think it will.

I think my only really ambitious timeline is the wood floors, I want to get it done in 3 days. We are going to rent 2 machines and buy 2 handheld sanders so the 3 of us (friend will be paid to help) can get all of the sanding and stripping done the first day. Setup one machine with coarse, one with medium so we can just follow eachother through the rooms. Same with the sanders, then set everything up with fine and finish. Clean it with mineral spirits and lay down the primer coat that night. We're planning on a water-based finish so we should be able to recoat about every 3 hours, 2-3 coats total then the third day for it to fully cure.

tadr said:   this sounds like far more than 40k worth of work.

Also, you may want to consider a streamlined 203k loan - you can't get as much money for the reno, but you can do the work yourself.


The problem with the 203k as I've tried to work it out is that plumbing and electrical, the two areas I can save the most money, would definitely have to be completed by licensed pros. Doing the electrical myself and having my friend connect and certify it is ~$8k savings.

CptSavAHo said:   
-downstairs kitchen built

used cabinets, sinks, countertops from local ReStore, maybe $650 total.
how about appliances?

-sand and refinish 900sqft of hardwood

not sure on the cost here with equipment rental and finishing supplies, probably ~$1500
it wont cost that much, but refinishing wood floors takes some skill to do WELL. any idiot can do it poorly. take your time. use the minimum grit and the minimum sanding power needing to juet get to the first layer of new wood. dont use a barrel sander if possible, they're easy to screw up with

-about 40 foot of fence replaced

no idea, never done fencing before
I use $8-10/ft as a starting point for basic 6' privacy fence. more if you have to rent an auger or you want cap and trim, gates, etc. you should have no problem building a fence. dont use pre-made panels, either.

couple comments in bold, above.

do you have a full-time job also? that's the hardest part, for me - finding time.

my first flip ever was a serious rehab and i spent $22k on it, made about $30k profit...but it took me 5 months of evenings and weekends. major systems were intact, but it was 1500 sqft of new flooring, new kitchen, new baths, new porch, new lawn...plus shoring, gutters, and french drains, etc etc...anyway, it's certainly doable, but dont be surprised if it takes much longer than planned.

Solar-

Ya I'm planning on 6 months minimum. The basement gets done first because the sooner I get someone in the faster I get revenue to keep projects rolling. I'm planning on using the 3 round pad style sander where they all oscillate independent of eachother for the floors. We bought a couple damaged coffee tables off craigslist and are currently using them to practice with the hand sander. I know it sounds silly but we are going to sand and finish them a couple times each for practice with the hand held sander for the details and the application of the finish. I'd rather practice on and hose a coffee table I spent $20 on than the floors where I'll be living. I priced it out today and paying retail will be around $500 for water based polyurethane for 10 gal at $50 ea, and about $200 for the sandpaper, applicators, and equipment rental, so half what I was expecting.

As far as appliances the house comes with the upstairs kitchen and we already have our own so it gives us 2 full sets except for an electric oven/stove which are a dime a dozen on craigslist.

CptSavAHo said:   
average about $100 per window with good quality vinyl windows. Most of the windows are small, 24x24 or less.


Good quality vinyl windows will cost you at least 4 times as much.

It's an ambitious plan, and I truly wish you luck with it.

But you're planning to rent out the basement as you renovate the floors directly above it over the next 5-6 months? Won't there be an awful lot of noise and inconvenience for the renter? Won't you also periodically be cutting off water or electric? Do you think your tenant(s) will be cool with that plan?

Quikboy4 said:   It's an ambitious plan, and I truly wish you luck with it.

But you're planning to rent out the basement as you renovate the floors directly above it over the next 5-6 months? Won't there be an awful lot of noise and inconvenience for the renter? Won't you also periodically be cutting off water or electric? Do you think your tenant(s) will be cool with that plan?


The plumbing will be part of the basement renovation, electrical will probably require some coordination. Shouldn't be much noise, most of the upstairs work will be daytime and not very loud.

As far as the windows, friend of the family owns the company he's charging me materials cost only.

CptSavAHo said:   As far as the windows, friend of the family owns the company he's charging me materials cost only.

Someone that installed a $100 window in my house and told me it was good quality would no longer be my friend.

sauceisboss said:   CptSavAHo said:   As far as the windows, friend of the family owns the company he's charging me materials cost only.

Someone that installed a $100 window in my house and told me it was good quality would no longer be my friend.


I don't really want to disclose the company on FW. Equivalent windows through Lowe's with same gas/glass combo would be ~$320. Its a killer deal.

If you think you can get a renter for $1000 when your mortgage is only $550, then your utilities, etc. will ensure you pretty much break even, so you're getting a free place to live in return for the work/money you spend fixing it up. Damn nice.

That said, how do the numbers work? Is that fixed rate? If so, your interest rate is about zero.

NOTE: As dcwilbur pointed out, it appears that the mortgage is really $1550. Oops.

StevenColorado said:   If you think you can get a renter for $1000 when your mortgage is only $550, then your utilities, etc. will ensure you pretty much break even, so you're getting a free place to live in return for the work/money you spend fixing it up. Damn nice.

That said, how do the numbers work? Is that fixed rate? If so, your interest rate is about zero.
I read his post to mean that the mortgage payment was $1550 ($1000 covered by the rent).

Here is my breakdown.. More realistic..

-new plumbing -- 2-3 grand
-new furnace and ducting -- 8 grand easy
-minor roof repair -- 1-2 grand
-most of the electrical rewired -- 3-4 grand easy
-replacement of the basement ceiling -- 500$
-renovation of both bathrooms -- 5-6k You'll need new tubs, vanities, sinks, tile, etc. 5-6 grand
-downstairs kitchen built -- Depends on size, should be 5 grand. Appliances are another 2 grand
-sand and refinish 900sqft of hardwood -- XX I have NO idea. I only install flooring. New hardwood your looking at 3 grand or so.
-some painting -- 500$
-replacement of 14 windows including basement (brick and lathe, frames screwed in place no flashing mess etc) -- 3000$ AT LEAST
-minor yard work -- 500$
-about 40 foot of fence replaced -- 500-1000$

Total low end estimate: 33-35 grand.

dcwilbur said:   StevenColorado said:   If you think you can get a renter for $1000 when your mortgage is only $550, then your utilities, etc. will ensure you pretty much break even, so you're getting a free place to live in return for the work/money you spend fixing it up. Damn nice.

That said, how do the numbers work? Is that fixed rate? If so, your interest rate is about zero.
I read his post to mean that the mortgage payment was $1550 ($1000 covered by the rent).


Oops. I agree. I missed the "balance on the mortgage".

CptSavAHo said:   valueinvestor said:   Expect to spend a lot longer on the work than you think it will.

I think my only really ambitious timeline is the wood floors, I want to get it done in 3 days. We are going to rent 2 machines and buy 2 handheld sanders so the 3 of us (friend will be paid to help) can get all of the sanding and stripping done the first day. Setup one machine with coarse, one with medium so we can just follow eachother through the rooms. Same with the sanders, then set everything up with fine and finish. Clean it with mineral spirits and lay down the primer coat that night. We're planning on a water-based finish so we should be able to recoat about every 3 hours, 2-3 coats total then the third day for it to fully cure.


It is worth the extra time to do an oil-based finish, in terms of durability.

arch8ngel said:   CptSavAHo said:   valueinvestor said:   Expect to spend a lot longer on the work than you think it will.

I think my only really ambitious timeline is the wood floors, I want to get it done in 3 days. We are going to rent 2 machines and buy 2 handheld sanders so the 3 of us (friend will be paid to help) can get all of the sanding and stripping done the first day. Setup one machine with coarse, one with medium so we can just follow eachother through the rooms. Same with the sanders, then set everything up with fine and finish. Clean it with mineral spirits and lay down the primer coat that night. We're planning on a water-based finish so we should be able to recoat about every 3 hours, 2-3 coats total then the third day for it to fully cure.


It is worth the extra time to do an oil-based finish, in terms of durability.


I agree, especially if the house is empty. You can do it with minimum disruption (compared to if the house was inhabited and you had to smell fumes for some period of time).

Also remember, that when your house closes, you have set the market. And the market may not completely take into account that your house needed all these repairs and may not give you full credit for the repairs you make (if you are going to flip it).

OP

I hope you understand no one is attacking you - its all good. You are doing what many do by underestimating costs and overestimating what you and your friends can do and how fast you can do it.

I would be scared to get $100 windows (yes, i know you are getting a price break). Its just SOOOO much easier to do things right the first time.

I have done some install work myself (def not on your level) and I have learned to its best to do it right the first time. Getting $1,000 a month rent is FAR EASIER if you are renting a place that WOWS tenants. A rental (basement) with a kitchen that was built for $650 in used materials does not WOW.

If you were a builder and had been saving/stashing materials from old jobs or product bought cheap maybe, but you are planning on about..... 25 things all going perfect for this job to be done at your price. I HAVE TRIED THIS BEFORE - it rarely works.

Regardless --- have fun. And yes, you will always come out far ahead ($$$ and knowledge) by doing it yourself

alamo11 said:   Here is my breakdown.. More realistic..

-new plumbing -- 2-3 grand ? I just helped a friend redo a whole duplex total almost 2400 sqft we spent $680. It will be atleast $100 cheaper since I now own the tools

-new furnace and ducting -- 8 grand easy 94 eff furnace and total ductwork got 2 estimates, $6400 with a rheem unit and $5800 with a trane unit sellers are paying half

-minor roof repair -- 1-2 grand I'll know for sure Monday, but right now its only replace missing shingles from a wind storm about 2 weeks ago, and only missing a few. I would do it myself but I'm really scared of heights.

-most of the electrical rewired -- 3-4 grand easy I haven't priced materials, but if we need to replace junction/conduit/breakers/breaker box I agree

-replacement of the basement ceiling -- 500$ approx 600 sqft of drywall, screws, paint and trim drywall is biggest cost at $12 for 80 sqft retail, so max is maybe $250.

-renovation of both bathrooms -- 5-6k You'll need new tubs, vanities, sinks, tile, etc. 5-6 grand Just redid my rental bath, which needed a ton of rotten framing replaced. Pulled and replaced the tub, repainted, reframed and trimmed window, new vanity, new tile floor total was $840. Used builder surplus stores and ReStore for tile and fixtures. Even retail a new tub/shower enclosure at Home Depot is only $600.

-downstairs kitchen built -- Depends on size, should be 5 grand. Appliances are another 2 grand Its a rental. Used cabinets about $250, I already have appliances.

-sand and refinish 900sqft of hardwood -- XX I have NO idea. I only install flooring. New hardwood your looking at 3 grand or so. Its $50 a gallon retail for water based finish, $40 for oil. It will take 10 gal waterbased or 4 gal oil. With tools another $350 (sand paper is expensive)

-some painting -- 500$ My 900 sqft rental was about $340 in paint, this will probably run closer to $750.

-replacement of 14 windows including basement (brick and lathe, frames screwed in place no flashing mess etc) -- 3000$ AT LEAST Wicked deal on windows

-minor yard work -- 500$ I'm going to terrace with railroad ties and brick, most of which I can get for free. No sod its mostly ripping out overgrown bushes, fixing stone paths etc.

-about 40 foot of fence replaced -- 500-1000$ No idea, never done fencing before but its a lot of work.

Total low end estimate: 33-35 grand. With the seller picking up half the furnace cost I'm now aiming for $18k.


I appreciate all the responses. As people post and reply I get a better idea of things to pay attention. I know the window thing sounds funny but its a seriously kickass deal, the business is legit and the windows are awesome. The only downside is they have to ship, he would install them for free if I lived back home.

Regarding windows, I could see OP paying around $100 per 24"x24" vinyl window. People who scoff at that don't have the right connections, period. Attached is a recent quote from a property my company renovated. These are higher-end vinyl windows, manufactured and delivered by a local company. Install was left to us. These were mostly large windows on a very old house (~100yrs) and they averaged nearly $200 per window after tax. The casements were what drove the average up. Single- or double-hung would have averaged much less. (Case in point: $120 for a 34"x54" window.)

CptSavAHo said:   alamo11 said:   Here is my breakdown.. More realistic..

-new plumbing -- 2-3 grand ? I just helped a friend redo a whole duplex total almost 2400 sqft we spent $680. It will be atleast $100 cheaper since I now own the tools

-new furnace and ducting -- 8 grand easy 94 eff furnace and total ductwork got 2 estimates, $6400 with a rheem unit and $5800 with a trane unit sellers are paying half

-minor roof repair -- 1-2 grand I'll know for sure Monday, but right now its only replace missing shingles from a wind storm about 2 weeks ago, and only missing a few. I would do it myself but I'm really scared of heights.

-most of the electrical rewired -- 3-4 grand easy I haven't priced materials, but if we need to replace junction/conduit/breakers/breaker box I agree

-replacement of the basement ceiling -- 500$ approx 600 sqft of drywall, screws, paint and trim drywall is biggest cost at $12 for 80 sqft retail, so max is maybe $250.

-renovation of both bathrooms -- 5-6k You'll need new tubs, vanities, sinks, tile, etc. 5-6 grand Just redid my rental bath, which needed a ton of rotten framing replaced. Pulled and replaced the tub, repainted, reframed and trimmed window, new vanity, new tile floor total was $840. Used builder surplus stores and ReStore for tile and fixtures. Even retail a new tub/shower enclosure at Home Depot is only $600.

-downstairs kitchen built -- Depends on size, should be 5 grand. Appliances are another 2 grand Its a rental. Used cabinets about $250, I already have appliances.

-sand and refinish 900sqft of hardwood -- XX I have NO idea. I only install flooring. New hardwood your looking at 3 grand or so. Its $50 a gallon retail for water based finish, $40 for oil. It will take 10 gal waterbased or 4 gal oil. With tools another $350 (sand paper is expensive)

-some painting -- 500$ My 900 sqft rental was about $340 in paint, this will probably run closer to $750.

-replacement of 14 windows including basement (brick and lathe, frames screwed in place no flashing mess etc) -- 3000$ AT LEAST Wicked deal on windows

-minor yard work -- 500$ I'm going to terrace with railroad ties and brick, most of which I can get for free. No sod its mostly ripping out overgrown bushes, fixing stone paths etc.

-about 40 foot of fence replaced -- 500-1000$ No idea, never done fencing before but its a lot of work.

Total low end estimate: 33-35 grand. With the seller picking up half the furnace cost I'm now aiming for $18k.


I appreciate all the responses. As people post and reply I get a better idea of things to pay attention. I know the window thing sounds funny but its a seriously kickass deal, the business is legit and the windows are awesome. The only downside is they have to ship, he would install them for free if I lived back home.


You need to decide if you are flipping, or going to live in it. Your numbers are flip numbers. If you plan to live in part/all of it, you're not going to use a POS plastic tub. You're going to use a decent tub, and use mid-high end tile for the rest.

For cabinets 250$!?! WTF! You can't be getting anything remotely decent. http://www.granitetransformations.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/20... is not decent. I would go with http://www.kitchencabinetmart.com/allcabinets/Cherry_stained_Oak...

Counters.. Your forgetting that.

alamo11 said:   

You need to decide if you are flipping, or going to live in it. Your numbers are flip numbers. If you plan to live in part/all of it, you're not going to use a POS plastic tub. You're going to use a decent tub, and use mid-high end tile for the rest.

For cabinets 250$!?! WTF! You can't be getting anything remotely decent. http://www.granitetransformations.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/20... is not decent. I would go with http://www.kitchencabinetmart.com/allcabinets/Cherry_stained_Oak...

Counters.. Your forgetting that.


Go to your local Habitat for Humanity ReStore. They have tons of used cabinets in very good condition, and a lot of surplus cabinets that are new and 1/3 the price of the identical units at a Home Depot/Lowes/etc. A lot of the sets come with counters.

Example-

http://www.diggerslist.com/sale/kitchen/Kitchen-Cabinet-Sets-All...

The basement is going to be a rental. I am not fixing it up fancy to rent it to someone with a large dog (super premium rental rate in my area) and then have expensive fixtures torn up. It won't get super fancy floors or hardwood, its gets stuff that's durable, cheap, and easily replaceable.

I also think there's a lot of misunderstanding on the plumbing, its going to be done with PEX, not copper. The cost is literally 1/4 and 1/2 the work. It has a minimum 25 year life expectancy and fully complies with code. It is also freeze resistant which is a big benefit.

nullterm- That's a freaking lot of windows, was it a commercial property or multi-unit?

Also going forward I would really appreciate anyone who's done significant remodel work linking in to suppliers for materials. I will have a GC license in January so I can get a few more open doors that way. Tile has been a big PITA I can't seem to find it cheaper than a local hardware store.

It was just a big single-family colonial house. We did another that was a 3-story brick house and it had 52!

Hardwood floors aren't that hard. Around here you can find people who will sand and refinish floors for about $1-$1.50 a square foot with two or three coats so it's almost not worth doing yourself. Only thing about doing it in the winter is that you need heat for the poly to dry properly. As for floor sanders, Home Depot does rent them and they also rent the industrial strength edgers too so you don't have to buy small hand sanders. I think oil based is actually cheaper than water based and takes fewer coats. One trick is typically to use the sealer which dries in an hour and then put a coat on top of that and then put another coat on the next day. Some vendors consider that 3 coats. Also it doesn't smell as much as it used to just even a few years ago, lots of new rules about low voc poly. For 900 square feet, you just need one sander and edger. I've seen 3 man crews do 1000 square feet in about 5 hours, but those guys were pros and using a 12 inch sander instead of 8 that you end up renting at Home Depot. You also need a good vacuum. One guy runs the edger, the other the sander and the 3rd vacuums.

I can see why people would think this would be 30-40k if you had someone else do the work, but 20k sounds doable if he's doing most of the work himself.

CptSavAHo said:   valueinvestor said:   Expect to spend a lot longer on the work than you think it will.

I think my only really ambitious timeline is the wood floors, I want to get it done in 3 days. We are going to rent 2 machines and buy 2 handheld sanders so the 3 of us (friend will be paid to help) can get all of the sanding and stripping done the first day. Setup one machine with coarse, one with medium so we can just follow eachother through the rooms. Same with the sanders, then set everything up with fine and finish. Clean it with mineral spirits and lay down the primer coat that night. We're planning on a water-based finish so we should be able to recoat about every 3 hours, 2-3 coats total then the third day for it to fully cure.


I hope your other thoughts are more informed than this one is. No way is sanding hardwood floors all that easy, unless you are wanting gouges in it. Hiring someone who knows how to do it or doing it very slow is the only way it will not look like its a candidate for the "before" picture in an ad.

As for the staining and sealing, 24 hours between coats is the recommended minimum time, and final curing depends on product used, but is in days or weeks, not hours.

Typical recommendation is 1 week of curing for furniture and 30 days of curing for area rugs. Water-based is very slightly quicker, but not as strong of a finish. I've read conflicting information about the strength of oil- vs water-based poly, but every floor guy I talk to swears that the oil-based is stronger.

alamo11 said:   Here is my breakdown.. More realistic..

-new plumbing -- 2-3 grand
-new furnace and ducting -- 8 grand easy
-minor roof repair -- 1-2 grand
-most of the electrical rewired -- 3-4 grand easy
-replacement of the basement ceiling -- 500$
-renovation of both bathrooms -- 5-6k You'll need new tubs, vanities, sinks, tile, etc. 5-6 grand
-downstairs kitchen built -- Depends on size, should be 5 grand. Appliances are another 2 grand
-sand and refinish 900sqft of hardwood -- XX I have NO idea. I only install flooring. New hardwood your looking at 3 grand or so.
-some painting -- 500$
-replacement of 14 windows including basement (brick and lathe, frames screwed in place no flashing mess etc) -- 3000$ AT LEAST
-minor yard work -- 500$
-about 40 foot of fence replaced -- 500-1000$

Total low end estimate: 33-35 grand.

wtf? are you even reading the thread?



Go to your local Habitat for Humanity ReStore. They have tons of used cabinets in very good condition, and a lot of surplus cabinets that are new and 1/3 the price of the identical units at a Home Depot/Lowes/etc. A lot of the sets come with counters.

Example-

http://www.diggerslist.com/sale/kitchen/Kitchen-Cabinet-Sets-All...

The basement is going to be a rental. I am not fixing it up fancy to rent it to someone with a large dog (super premium rental rate in my area) and then have expensive fixtures torn up. It won't get super fancy floors or hardwood, its gets stuff that's durable, cheap, and easily replaceable.

I also think there's a lot of misunderstanding on the plumbing, its going to be done with PEX, not copper. The cost is literally 1/4 and 1/2 the work. It has a minimum 25 year life expectancy and fully complies with code. It is also freeze resistant which is a big benefit.

nullterm- That's a freaking lot of windows, was it a commercial property or multi-unit?

Also going forward I would really appreciate anyone who's done significant remodel work linking in to suppliers for materials. I will have a GC license in January so I can get a few more open doors that way. Tile has been a big PITA I can't seem to find it cheaper than a local hardware store.


Fix it up cheap, durable, and easily replaceable -- and you'll get a tenant willing to pay for cheap, durable, and easily replaceable. Maybe in your market, that's enough to hit your target number.

Go too cheap and you'll lose out on some of the more preferred tenants and higher rents, but obviously go too high and you'll never hit your numbers.

Slap something together based on the cheapest odds and ends you can find, and it shows.

As a previous poster alluded, it's often cheaper to do it right the first time than to keep replacing and repairing the cheaper option.

Personally I would plan on a price that gets me a satisfactory unit without "super deals" from salvage type of places. Make sure you can make that work with your finances. Then explore the salvage options and count any savings as a bonus to offset the inevitable increase somewhere else. If you plan the entire project around finding salvage items, what are you going to do when nothing you can find is what you want? You don't want to get yourself into a corner where you are forced to accept something you otherwise wouldn't.

Have you figured in a reserve or are you completely tapping yourself out with this 20K number? Once you start renting that basement, you have obligations you wouldn't have if it was just you or family living there. Whatever you were sure wouldn't be a problem will be, and inevitably it will break on a holiday weekend just after you've hit up Lowes for some major supplies for upstairs and are experiencing a cash flow crunch. And you'll find out that nice old lady downstairs seems to have taken night classes on landlord tenant law and intends to make life as difficult a possible for you.

Sorry to sound negative, but being a landlord is not an easy carefree thing to do. There is more work, expense, and liability than most "lets get a renter to save on our mortgage" people expect.

This isnt the super nice basement rental. There's nothing in the area that will drive premium rent other than a lenient pet policy and the close proximity to a central park. Im not putting in brand new $1500 cabinets so a dog can chew/scratch the hell out of them. Im not sure why people keep criticizing for not having premium fixtures in a basement rental it just doesnt make sense. I know some of ot is ambiguous because Im not posting details until we close but its not Hollywood Hills its an average neighborhood where the location makes renting easy and profitable enough to deal with the incidemts associated with being a landlord. This is also our test run before diving in deeper and buying some of the very profitable duplexes in the area. Sorry for any typos doing this on my phone.

Skipping 29 Messages...
Floors finished today. Spent $220 for the equipment rental and sanding supplies. Stain, finish, putty and applicators another $180. Lowest estimate was $2600. Saved $2200 doing it myself, looks pretty darn good. The oak floor is 3/4" and I took about 3/16 off it probably can't be reinished again without cutting too deep into the wood. Some areas of the floor, like near furnace vents, were in very bad shape and took a lot of work. I would not use an orbital sander again to finish the trim, or atleast not with a 36 grit pad. It was way more work to sand out all the swirls than it would have been just to not use it. I also tried to just take off the 1/4 round and leave the baseboards on, planning to paint them. Bad idea. Between the sanders, the stain and finish the baseboards are junk. They were in mediocre shape anyway just not looking forward to a full day of miter saw.

Edit;

Total time was about 18 hours, 14 or so to sand, 2 to stain, and an hour each for the 2 coats of finish.



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