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$150.00 Bonus after making 5 trades at Motif Investing. It works like this: 1 trade=$50, 3 trades=$75 and 5 trades=$150.00. So basically you net $100 if you do 5 trades, because each trade is 9.95. You need to keep the funds for 45 days if you are planning a dump and run.

https://www.motifinvesting.com/
Motif FAQs

I've seen their online ads a lot and decided to take a closer look. Its like trading theme-based ETFs which they now call "Motifs". Sounds like a cousin of Folio Investing, Covestor, Sharebuilder etc with their own twist. A wide variety of themes are covered, some of them contrasting. They have "Republican Donors" and "Democratic Donors". "Too Big to Fail" (TARP takers) and "Bailout free banks" (non-Tarp)", "All American", "China Internet", "BRICS". How about "Gay Friendly", "Senior Care", "Child's Play", "No Glass Celings (Women CEOs), "Pet Passion" (pets obviously). Even a "Seven Deadly Sins" type with holdings representing, well, the seven deadly sins. Not sure if people will agree on that though.

You own the assets directly, so there isn't any of the mutual fund expense overhead like management fees, marketing fees, etc. Each Motif is based on a theme (whether you agree on the holdings within a theme is another story). BUT, you can actually tweak the holdings within a motif, like increasing/decreasing the holding percentage at no extra cost. Or you can create your own.

So its 9.95 to buy, sell, tweak an existing motif with a minimum $250.00 investment amount per motif. If you already own one and you want to trade individual holdings within that motif, thats 4.95 per stock/etf. Looks really low cost.

There is plenty of stock overlap between themes (AAPL appears on several themes). I'm not sure how this will work when you do a lot of trades (buy/sell) for taxable accounts.

Trades are apparently done in real time, but no limit orders yet. So you could very well be burned with the order fills. They use Apex.

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Can you fund with a credit card?

noelandres (Nov. 27, 2013 @ 6:01p) |

By following your advice, don't you net just $80 ($100 - 2*$10)???

While the $150 offer nets you $100 ($150 - 4*$10 - $10... (more)

noelandres (Nov. 27, 2013 @ 8:48p) |

I think, if you play it right, you net $200 as a total bonus: +$150 (for the 5 trades), +$100 (for the referral), -$50 (... (more)

RyeWhiskey (Nov. 27, 2013 @ 11:23p) |

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Which page mentions the bonus? Can you just buy into 1 motif and then do 4 individual stock trades for a total of 5 trades @ $30?

You can buy the same motif 4 times and sell it once to make 5 trades. You need to use the 10 dollar motif trade to get the bonus and not the 5 buck individual trade. The bonus page is on the home page and it comes and goes. You might have to clear the cookies or use a different browser. In place of the "Buy the entire portfolio for $9.95 commission" (3rd checkmark) you should see the bonus offer. Try refreshing the browser.

Is this a good deal?

this is very interesting!

almost like a sector ETF without management fee.

very interesting.

hi,

can you explain ". So you could very well be burned with the order fills" a little?

Did you mean that one or more stocks in the motif could suddenly tank or jump, and mess up the motif allocation?

sunspotzsz said:   hi,

can you explain ". So you could very well be burned with the order fills" a little?

Did you mean that one or more stocks in the motif could suddenly tank or jump, and mess up the motif allocation?


I mean, all orders are Market Orders done in real time. When your order gets filled, you may end up buying a stock/ETF at the peak of the ask price. Example, you want to buy a Motif that has AAPL. If you use Limit orders you can do a BUY, but ONLY if price is let's say <=575.00. Without this, someone might be selling at 650, and you order might end up being filled at that higher price. Not sure how fractional shares work with high speed computer trading. Then again, with mutual funds you have no idea how orders are being filled, or what specific holdings your fund contains at any given time (you basically just end up trusting the fund manager not screwing you intentionally or not). Since they are a new company trying to build a customer base, I hope their system works reasonably well.

Jump off the cliff in 45 days for 100 Bernankes minus (now higher) taxes. But then the first $3000 of capital loss may be deductible against ordinary income (or may no longer.) Love those crazy motif names! Like 1999 all over again.

Anyone know if they allow negative weights (shorting) in their motif/baskets? That could be decent at $10 per basket.

xerty said:   Anyone know if they allow negative weights (shorting) in their motif/baskets? That could be decent at $10 per basket.

Looking at my account now...looks
like No to shorts and no options too.

gaffer said:   xerty said:   Anyone know if they allow negative weights (shorting) in their motif/baskets? That could be decent at $10 per basket.

Looking at my account now...looks
like No to shorts and no options too.

Thanks for checking, gaffer. I was really hoping for long & short baskets, but I'd settle for being able to short a whole custom motif. That should be a feature that fits with their business theme, maybe they'll get around to offering it eventually. Locates for a whole basket might be more work than they're willing to do tho.

I was just reading up on Motif and found the link to the $150 from here which linked to motif here.

The link from mymoneyblog has an affiliate link if you want to support them. Per FW rules though, I removed his affiliate link.

Like mymoneyblog, I was interested in a dividend aristocrats type of basket, but it looks like it could be in the future.

I don't see an expiration date either.

Edit: Ok, the expiration is on mymoneyblog's website, but not on the terms and conditions page for the bonus.

sunspotzsz said:   this is very interesting!

almost like a sector ETF without management fee.

very interesting.

Exactly, and you can stick to the default composition, or change the composition of the Motif itself and still pay the same 9.95. You can even create your own Motif. Anyone want to create a FatWallet motif? Its one of the cheapest ways to pretend being fund manager using real money.

Motif said: this is very interesting!
The cash bonus offer applies to new, approved Motif Investing brokerage accounts opened after 9/1/12 and funded with at least $2,000. The new funds must be posted
to the account within 10 calendar days of account opening, and must remain in the account for 45 calendar days. The total bonus will be based on motif trades made
within 45 calendar days of funding, as follows: 1 motif trade will receive $50; 3 motif trades will receive $75; 5 motif trades will receive $150. A motif trade is defined as
a completed purchase or sale of a motif for $9.95 commission. Individual stock trades will not be considered as part of this offer. The cash bonus will be credited to the
account within 30 calendar days after the end of the 45-calendar-day period.
Commission fees are not reimbursable as part of this offer. This offer is not valid for retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and cannot be combined with any other offers
from Motif Investing, and is not transferrable. Limit one account bonus per household. Motif Investing reserves the right to terminate this offer at any time and to refuse
or recover any promotion award if, in Motif Investing’s sole opinion, it was obtained under wrongful or fraudulent circumstances, that inaccurate or incomplete
information was provided in opening the account, or that any terms of the Account Agreement have been violated. This offer is not applicable to associates or affiliated
associates (including contractors, interns, and temporary employees) of Motif Investing and their immediate family members. Standard pricing: $9.95 per motif and $
4.95 per stock. Other fees may apply. For details on fees and commissions, please click here


$2500 fund within 10 calendar days, funds must remain for 45 calendar days. 5 trades within 45 calendar days.

gaffer said:   sunspotzsz said:   this is very interesting!

almost like a sector ETF without management fee.

very interesting.

Exactly, and you can stick to the default composition, or change the composition of the Motif itself and still pay the same 9.95. You can even create your own Motif. Anyone want to create a FatWallet motif? Its one of the cheapest ways to pretend being fund manager using real money.


the only problem is the number of stocks allowed in motif.

I am not sure 30 stocks offer sufficient diversification. Need to do some sophisticated statistical analysis to figure it out.

sunspotzsz said:   the only problem is the number of stocks allowed in motif.

I am not sure 30 stocks offer sufficient diversification. Need to do some sophisticated statistical analysis to figure it out.

You get half the market cap of the S&P500 in roughly the biggest 45 names. But if you really want diversification, why not buy an index fund for free? The only need for motifs is to place sector bets on things there aren't convenient ETFs for.

xerty said:   sunspotzsz said:   the only problem is the number of stocks allowed in motif.

I am not sure 30 stocks offer sufficient diversification. Need to do some sophisticated statistical analysis to figure it out.

You get half the market cap of the S&P500 in roughly the biggest 45 names. But if you really want diversification, why not buy an index fund for free? The only need for motifs is to place sector bets on things there aren't convenient ETFs for.


where can you buy index fund for free? The cheapest fund has at least 7 or 8 basis points.

what do you mean by "only need"? sector bet may be founder's original intention but I can treat it like a fee free index fund that i will hold for a very very long time

The only index that motifs can really replicate would be the DJIA. Can't see it working for hundreds of holdings.

sunspotzsz said:   
the only problem is the number of stocks allowed in motif.
I am not sure 30 stocks offer sufficient diversification. Need to do some sophisticated statistical analysis to figure it out.


If you need more than 30, you can always create another motif for another 9.95 and treat the 2 motif basket as one big combo fund. Still low cost, but you would be reaching the point of diminishing returns when you can buy an index fund instead. Or you can create a motif composed of different ETFs for further diversification.

I agree with xerty on the point that a strength of motifs is for sector based plays that you can further customize.

I don't think this ended Nov 30. It's now Dec 1 and the homepage still shows the offer (and doesn't mention an expiration date). mint.com also still has a link that goes to a page that is still up. Maybe they removed the expiration date after mymoneyblog posted that.

Do they do a hard pull?

sunspotzsz said:   xerty said: But if you really want diversification, why not buy an index fund for free?
where can you buy index fund for free? The cheapest fund has at least 7 or 8 basis points.

what do you mean by "only need"? sector bet may be founder's original intention but I can treat it like a fee free index fund that i will hold for a very very long time

I was referring to purchase commissions when I said you could buy an index fund fee-free (plenty of no-load ones). Yes, VFIAX (Vanguard 500 Index, Admiral class) will cost you 5bp in fees each year, which is about as cheap as you can get retail. On $100k, that's $50 per year. With motifs, you'd need 17 of them to cover the S&P 500 stocks, which will run you $170 up front just in commissions (and I'm sure Vanguard's execution costs are miles ahead of this no-name broker's). More to the point, you might want to buy more or sell off some of your holdings, since most people are either adding to the savings (and need to buy more periodically), or need to spend them since they're retired and living on the principle or accrued gains (hence need to sell periodically). With a motif portfolio, you'll be paying that $170 every time you want to add new money. Now you can cut down on that $170 each time by only buying or selling 1-2 baskets at a time in rotation, but even then you're looking at passing the $50 mark for an index fund pretty quickly and with a whole lot more work, tax headaches, more tracking error, etc.

I stand by my statement that the best thing these are good for is rolling your own custom ETF.

Looks to still be alive with no expiration date (at least for now). Updated title to remove expiration date (Nov 30, 2012).

10 calendar days from account opening to funds crediting the account to meet bonus reqs, btw. Missed by 1 day after hitting 2 weekends and being tardy for a couple of days.

Oh well, requesting a withdrawal.

I checked and they support margin, but not shorting at all - neither in motifs nor individual stocks. Apparently this is actively on their list of things to eventually offer though, maybe later on if they're still in business.

No bonus show up on the website.
Is the deal dead?

Also, was the funding requirement 2000, or 2500? When i signed up, i saw no specific requirement other than that you needed 2000 to open an account.

expired said:   Also, was the funding requirement 2000, or 2500? When i signed up, i saw no specific requirement other than that you needed 2000 to open an account.

Its $2,000 to get the $150 bonus. 1,000 to get the $50 bonus. If you don't care about the bonus, then no account minimum and $250.00 to buy one motif (so practically speaking you want $260.00 in order to do anything).

gaffer said:   

Its $2,000 to get the $150 bonus. 1,000 to get the $50 bonus. If you don't care about the bonus, then no account minimum and $250.00 to buy one motif (so practically speaking you want $260.00 in order to do anything).


Where did you get so much detail information? Could you please offer the link?
I can't find it on its website.

Thank you very much!

ussrfw said:   gaffer said:   
Its $2,000 to get the $150 bonus. 1,000 to get the $50 bonus. If you don't care about the bonus, then no account minimum and $250.00 to buy one motif (so practically speaking you want $260.00 in order to do anything).

Where did you get so much detail information? Could you please offer the link?
I can't find it on its website.
Thank you very much!

The $150.00 Bonus offer comes and goes at their home page but I can't post other links on this forum as per FWF rules. The other bonus -- $50 bonus after 1 trade ($1,000 minimum) is unadvertised and is ala INGDirect. I don't see my bonus yet because it is credited around calendar day 75 (45+30) assuming you follow all the rules. Here is the bonus offer fine print:

The cash bonus offer applies to new, approved Motif Investing brokerage accounts opened after 9/1/12 and funded with at least $2,000. The new funds must be posted to the account within 10 calendar days of account opening, and must remain in the account for 45 calendar days. The total bonus will be based on motif trades made within 45 calendar days of funding, as follows: 1 motif trade will receive $50; 3 motif trades will receive $75; 5 motif trades will receive $150. A motif trade is defined as a completed purchase or sale of a motif for $9.95 commission. Individual stock trades will not be considered as part of this offer. The cash bonus will be credited to the account within 30 calendar days after the end of the 45-calendar-day period.
Commission fees are not reimbursable as part of this offer. This offer is not valid for retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and cannot be combined with any other offers from Motif Investing, and is not transferrable. Limit one account bonus per household. Motif Investing reserves the right to terminate this offer at any time and to refuse or recover any promotion award if, in Motif Investing’s sole opinion, it was obtained under wrongful or fraudulent circumstances, that inaccurate or incomplete information was provided in opening the account, or that any terms of the Account Agreement have been violated. This offer is not applicable to associates or affiliated associates (including contractors, interns, and temporary employees) of Motif Investing and their immediate family members. Standard pricing: $9.95 per motif and $4.95 per stock. Other fees may apply. For details on fees and commissions, please click here.

I sent them an email to confirm the bonus a week ago. Zero response, so not very happy with customer service. Tax time is going to be interesting. I'm down $10 total from funding or up $30 for the deal if you consider that I've done 4 trades. Other than the complex tax considerations and the fact tht I can't import this data easily into any software, I like the idea.

Did you even get the auto-generated email that says "We've received your email and will respond within 1
business day yadda yadda"? My emails have been responded to quickly enough, but I haven't emailed lately. Need to do 2 more trades, hope I don't forget since they don't have triggers or alerts yet.

As for taxes, that would be interesting how theirs would work out...they said they'll give out a file that can be imported in Turbo Tax. I think they use Pershing (or was that Penson)....

Yes, I received the auto e-mail confirming receipt of the question. They use Apex according to the trade confirmations. I didn't realize until now, but Apex apparently is a restructuring of Penson.

According to their CSR, my response was sent the next day, but I have no record of it. I traded two motifs, one custom, one stock added to the custom motif and sold them for a total of 5 trades. Came out with a 4% gain after ~45 days, not including the bonus. I will likely be using this service more in the future, Hopefully they will get Quicken or TurboTax integration before next years taxes...

I may move my IRA over to avoid the tax mess.

Got my $150 bonus. Seemed kinda early since I was just barely out of the 45 day period where I needed to make the 5 motif trades, and their site said 45 days + 30 to get the bonus. I almost forgot to do trades 4 and 5 which would have bumped down my bonus to just $75.00 (3 trades). At 5.2% right now not including bonus, but that really doesn't mean much this early (it could be -20% next month).

I have opened an account and am funding it.

Since trades are required for the bonus, this reduces the total return. Thus, for the $150 bonus, 5 trades will cost $49.75, reducing the bonus to $100.25. However, since this is earned over the very short period of 45 days, the annualized rate of return on $2,000 is an impressive 40% per year.

It looks like the odd number of trades is chosen so you will be left with a position that will require eventually a liquidation. I doubt if it will prove practical to transfer out positions to another firm. If this can be done, and you are going to a firm with a promotion offering hundred of free trades (Ameritrade, say) for a new account, you might get out for free.

Many may find it takes 6 trades to earn the full bonus, which reduces the return to a little over $90, which is still good.

This promotion is relatively labor intensive since one must make open an account, fund it, make five trades, and remove your money. Since the idea of Motif investing is new, you will probably spend time trying to understand it, and make your decisions.

Unlike many brokerage or bank offers where deciding what to do with the money is often easy (leave it in a deposit for a bank) or put it in your favorite exchange traded fund for a brokerage offer, this deal may take some thought. However, this thought can be one of the benefits. The idea is new and interesting, and you may actually find you like it and use it repeatedly, in which case the time has been spent very profitably. (Of course, this is why they are paying you to try it).

One worry is the work of doing your taxes since you will end up with numerous positions you have bought and sold. Each Motif trade is a purchase of a number of individual stocks, which must be listed individually on your tax returns. They told me that this year they were going to have this downloadable in TurboTax, and expect to do it for 2012 also. Federal taxes may be avoided by investing in a municipal bond fund, although even then there may be implications for your state income tax returns.


They do make it possible to sort the MOTIF by volatility, 1 month returns,yearly returns, etc. which may reduce the work of finding something to buy. Risk adverse ones may wish to sort by volatility, and then look at the low volatility ones.

If it looks like you will be a long term customer,this may be less of a problem. If going for the bonus, one could easily find out that one had to make another trade in order to meet your goal, and that you were then left with a position requiring another trade to get out.

The entertainment value of taking this offer may be high for some. Trying to pick a few Motif's to invest $2,000 in may be fun, and many of them have some diversification built in so your losses may not be too high. They have discussion threads for each motif, so you could end up wasting much time reading these and contributing. However, you probably would learn something.

Thus, one going after the $150 bonus might figure on 6 trades, or approximately $60 in expenses. However, it appears one might get the bonus for two round trips by purchasing one motif on one day (say for $500), and then soon afterwards another (again for about %500). I presume both could be liquidated with one trade for abut $1,000.

If you are trading just for the bonus, you will have only short term gains and unfavorable dividend treatment. Of course, it may be possible to get into a position in a series of trades ($250 per day for 5 days) and then hold it until it was a long term gain, when you liquidate everything in one trade).

As pointed out, this is not a good vehicle for someone who wants a very high level of diversification (there are index funds for that) or a very high degree of safety (there are banks for that). Some of their Motifs are bonds, so someone who is primarily chasing the bonus and who cannot take much risk may find the Treasury ladder, or a municipal bond fund a good choice. Since municipal bonds are not taxable at the Federal level, this may also minimize your tax work. they offer MOTIF's for both NY municipals and California municipals, which may be attractive for those in these two states, and with only 3 securities in each, they may be easy to do the capital gains taxes on.

It appears good for placing odd bets that may be hard to do in other ways with adequate diversification, such as on fracking related stocks. They could be useful for speculators who realize quicker than others the implication of something and want to place a bet before others figure it out. Picking say 10 companies that will benefit from news, and buying them quickly is hard. One of their lists can be bought with one order in a small quantity. Examples
would be Chinese Solar or Minimally Invasive Surgery.

The timing for the bonus may be difficult. One person above mentioned missing the bonus by not trading quickly enough. You may play it safe by making trades quickly, and then ending up in cash. If you take it out too soon, you may violate the terms of the offer. Marking your calendar is wise.

Building a position in 4 or 5 trades (saying about $400 per day), and then planning on paying another commission when you finally exit may make sense. I see no maintenance fees, so once you are invested you might easily choose to stay for while, possibly until you have a long term gain. If you have a loss in less than 45 days, you may as well take it early for one of your trades. I am thinking of building a position in one MOTIF, possibly Dogs of the Dow until fully invested. I will then mark my calendar for close to their deadline. I will then sell if there is a loss (having 5 trades made)to have a capital loss to offset gains elsewhere. If it is up, I will either sell $250 worth for my last trade, or bring in a little more money and add to my position planning no making it a buy and hold position. With ten stocks, this might be practical to transfer out also if I decide to leave for some reason.

Got my full bonus. I worked around the odd number of trades by buying into the same motif twice and different times and then liquidating it. (tossed an extra 500 in for kicks).

expired said:   Got my full bonus. I worked around the odd number of trades by buying into the same motif twice and different times and then liquidating it. (tossed an extra 500 in for kicks).

For the buy and hold investor who had only $2,000, he may really want only one round trip, especially since MOTIFs are somewhat diversified, and this $2,000 may be small fraction of his total portfolio. If he is planning on 5 trades, he might do as described above for three trades, and then buy and sell another MOTIF in the same session (possibly before this three trades on the buy and hold one). Has anyone bought and sold this quickly, and if so what happened? This may be a good way to see how much you lose to the spread.

Trying to understand how they can make the small purchases required to build a MOTIF for less than $10, it occurred to me that maybe the clearing firm, APEX, picked up much of the expense, and planned on recovering it through higher prices on buys and lower ones on sells. Normally, the reported prices are for round lots (100 shares) so we do not have an easy way of monitoring executions. Traditionally, odd lots (less than 100 shares) have paid an odd lot differential for the higher cost of processing, which used to be in brokerage houses fee schedules explicitly.

I was thinking I might make my five trades for the Open, placing them before the market opens (or after hours for the next morning). This should get you price without the spread, and be easy to monitor.

Does anyone have enough experience to know how their executions are?

I have. I was worried about the spreads too. I monitored the prices in real-time and made a comparison with the buy prices executed by Motif. I can't monitor all holdings that make up a Motif realistically, so I just looked at those weighted the most. I actually don't think there was any difference at all. The order execution page has a very nice UX by the way (if anyone is into that sort of thing). Or maybe the stocks weren't that volatile, or I got lucky with the timing. Or Motif, being brand new wants to make a good impression and get favorable reviews. It is typical to have an awesome experience in the beginning, whether they can maintain it is up in the air. But without Limit orders, the risk will always be there. It may not matter much for long term buy and hold investors.

ProfessorEd - why do you think it would take many individuals 6 trades to earn the bonus? If the aim was to simply get the bonus, shouldn't one just buy the same Motif 4 times and then do one sell for the 5th trade (within 45 days)?

gaffer said:   


ProfessorEd - why do you think it would take many individuals 6 trades to earn the bonus? If the aim was to simply get the bonus, shouldn't one just buy the same Motif 4 times and then do one sell for the 5th trade (within 45 days)?


If you buy and sell on Motif, each if 2 trades. Hence, without planning you end up with six trades when, and if, you leave them (cash to cash). I assume they picked odd numbers of trades to make the deal sound better, expecting most would end up with more trades. Your method is one way to do only 5 trades. Another way would be in and out quickly for two trades, and then something else for the others. The in and out might reveal the loss to the spread, which is why I asked.

The actual trading is done by APEX. From the APEX history, it appears they are a descendent of a firm, one of whose managers may have done some self dealing. See:
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB5000142405311190388290457747...
Motif claims to do some monitoring of them so that their clients are not overcharged.

Their service amounts to advice on a number of possible "bets" and strategies, and then way to do them at a low cost. In particular, they provide a way to do a lot of odd lot trades (including fractional shares even) to make a particular "bet" or to implement a particular strategy at less than $10.00 per lot, which is so low as to make one wonder whether there is a hidden source of profit in there (or a hidden way to recover expenses), even allowing for the economies of computerization.

The most obvious one is that APEX bears most of the costs, and APEX recovers them through the prices of the buys and sells, which will almost always be odd lot ones. The MOTIF statements should show the prices the client paid in buying and selling correctly. However, if these prices were just a little worse than the average for the round lot trader, their service may not be that valuable when compared to others ways to invest, such as ETFs or mutual funds bought through conventional discount brokers.

Skipping 58 Messages...
noelandres said:   
Neidman said:   You can get a $100 bonus after only one trade if someone with a Motif account refers you. The person doing the referring also gets $100.
  
By following your advice, don't you net just $80 ($100 - 2*$10)???

While the $150 offer nets you $100 ($150 - 4*$10 - $10). Of course, this stragegy is for people like me who only want to churn for the money. Maybe after trying it I might find a purpose to having the account, and actually use it.

  
noelandres said:   
Neidman said:   You can get a $100 bonus after only one trade if someone with a Motif account refers you. The person doing the referring also gets $100.
  
By following your advice, don't you net just $80 ($100 - 2*$10)???

While the $150 offer nets you $100 ($150 - 4*$10 - $10). Of course, this stragegy is for people like me who only want to churn for the money. Maybe after trying it I might find a purpose to having the account, and actually use it.

  
I think, if you play it right, you net $200 as a total bonus: +$150 (for the 5 trades), +$100 (for the referral), -$50 (for the five trades) = $200. Since the minimum to get the bonus is $2,000, that's an immediate 10% return. I believe that you need to hold the motif for a minimum of 45 days, however it may be wisest to hold it for a year in order to trigger long term capital gains.



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