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KYBOSH said:   Blood is thicker than mud folks.


Either way, there was no way I was going to call the fuzz on my old man.


This is why it keeps happening. This not as uncommon as you might think. I've worked with young adults trying to get GEDs and other skills they missed for one reason or another. The number of these young people who have parents who committed identity theft to get things like phones, loans and access to apartments was quiet disheartening. It is a violation of a trust and charge. They make it difficult for young people to start off in life, and they do not even know it's a problem until they try to get something like a phone or a credit card. These parents count on their blood not to turn them in and tell them to just wait out the credit report. I fine the practice sickening and grossly unreported.

Al3xK said:   mrockosaurus said:   but the money was spent on breast implants
Pics of MIL(F)?


That's MILILF!


Initially, there's no need to "press charges" against MIL. Start by disputing the items as fraud/ID theft. If you are required to file a police report on the fraud, do so. But it's not your job to investigate or postulate on who committed the fraud.

If you tell the creditors the MIL did it, they will push back on you to resolve within the family. It's not your responsibility to resolve, it's simply a matter of ID theft, no matter who committed it.

With regard to the other 2 accounts (settlement and trust fund). Depending on how the settlement was worded, your wife is probably SOL on the settlement money. As guardian, MIL probably had the right to spend the money on reasonable expenses on the daughter (summer camp, ballet lessons, etc). Despite everything that's been done to your wife by MIL, I'd consider that money as investment in her childhood.

On the $15k trust fund, you probably only have recourse if you sue the mom. You might not be able to pursue the bank holding the trust.

The debts are easier to wiggle out of since you are not trying to reclaim the funds (the banks will take the loss). Recovering the trust fund will be most difficult as you'd probably have to sue the mom and/or the holder of the trust (if they were negligent in handling the distribution).

vegetation said:   chimeer said:   If the accounts were 7+ years old isn't there a fair chance the fraud MIL committed is now past the statute of limitations for criminal prosecution?

Main problem is that prosecutors do not like to touch old cases like this. It loses jury appeal. Also potentially a big problem with documentation as it's so aged, institutions are not required to retain this information. Someone also already pointed out how a defense can be raised where the mother used the funds to ensure food was kept on the table, especially if this was a single mother raising a child, where it loses even more jury appeal. The amount of money involved is not unusually large.

Also, I would not bother sueing unless you know the mother is collectible. From the sounds of it, this is unlikely - more than likely a financially irresponsible individual who leaches off one person to another to survive. If I'm wrong, where she has strong earning potential then by all means go for it. Else, don't beat a dead horse.


If mom is relatively young (25 yr old daughter, mom could be 43-45 easily). With implants and a focus on good looks, mom could bag another whale and end up married again to a rich guy. It might be worth suing mom for the missing trust fund money, and holding onto the judgement in case mom gets remarried. Then pursue collection on the judgment once there are marital assets. So, even if judgement proof today, that might not be the case in a year from now.

Throw momma from the train.

OP,

Start at post on the creditboards forums.

http://creditboards.com/forums/index.php?showforum=2

They will walk you through.

I saw some misinformation above. As far as I know (and a few others told you explicitly), there is no requirement that the guilty party is caught and prosecuted in order to invalidate the debt. The only requirement I know of that you need to be careful of is that your wife did not "willingly" help your MIL obtain any of the credit in question.

Since you probably already mentioned your MIL during recorded calls, I would follow SIS's advice and stick to simply stating you suspect her, but you have no proof (and don't volunteer that until explicitly asked). Let the companies and the police do their work, you are under no obligation to do their investigation for them.

Given that it's only 25k (spread across multiple creditors???), it's probably a crapshoot whether the companies will pursue your MIL criminally.

The people at the creditboards forums are unfortunately experts at invalidating legitimate debts. I don't agree with all their philosophies, but that shouldn't stop you from using their strategies.

BenH said:   Tough decision.

Obviously if perpetrator was a stranger you would prosecute to the full extent of the law both civil and criminal.


...and if your own mother would perpetrate the crime, that's much worse than if she did it to a stranger.
Therefore she merits less leniency than a stranger would get.

The pattern, especially with the fraudulent student loans, shows theft, not desperation to provide the child's needs, to me.

mrockosaurus said:   If you have a solution to take away any money we owe without throwing her under the bus let me know. I'm not paying for her mistakes though. I'm not looking for revenge, I just want her to have to pay the debt she caused.

I'm thinking that it's a classic case of getting blood from a turnip.
The things she's done are things that indicate she will always be too broke to pay the debts.
The creditors are the ones who were defrauded, and now they are defaming your wife's good name because they think she owes the debts.
The student loans, especially if government backed, are going to be the hardest to get rid of.
Fraudulent credit cards shouldn't be too big of a deal.

As usual SIS gives very good advice - Dispute with the Credit Agencies, and only pursuing mother-in-law as required.
Although I'd want to do it, you're probably not going to benefit overall from actively going after her.
I met someone that had had their identity stolen by a roommate. The Police didn't want to pursue even with them identifying the perpetrator and ready to volunteer any information. Anything is possible, but there is a good chance a case would never be pursued against her mother. Things done while living at the same residence may be hard to prove. The only thing that I am uncertain about is you mention her Mother used her own name. This might provide more proof than usual since most identity theft criminals use the other person's name.


The only thing I would add is to research credit boards as gatzdon suggested, and request Validation before disputing with CRA's*.

Next Steps:
First check Credit Reports.
Second, mail all fraud related creditors a request for validation (I would send these CMRRR, but it's up to you how much your willing to spend to make this airtight. A first class stamp will also do the job.)
Third dispute all Fraud credit items with the Credit Agencies. (Mail dispute at the same time as Validation or a couple days later)



CRA's - Credit Reporting Agencies. *In addition to the big three, you might request some others such as Chex Systems.
Validation - Google "Request for Validation" and examples will be provided.
CMRRR - Certified Mail Return Receipt Requested


Do you know if your Wife was under 18 when the Trust Fund money was stolen? I'm not very familiar with trust funds, but for $15,000 I'd say it is worth suing bank if you have legal recourse (I.e Mother shouldn't have had access to the money?) You might be out of statute of limitations with the bank though. May only want to sue mother if she had funds.

Sorry for having to go through this, I went through the same thing with my first wife. We filed a mortgage application for our first house and it was denied because my wife had terrible credit. Come to find out it was her mom opening credit cards in her name (while we were together, not while my wife was a kid) and then not making payments. All we had to do was sign an affidavit with the credit card companies saying that she did not open the accounts, the credit card companies took it from there, we never had to deal with police.

I don't know what ever became of it from the MIL standpoint, she was never arrested or anything as far as I know. We were young, buying our first house, talking about starting a family, and I was pissed. I told the MIL that she put our family's financial well-being in jeopardy and that we were not going to pay the consequences of her stupid actions. We had little to do with her for quite a while (which was fine by me), but we eventually started to get involved again over time. It's going to be a tough ride, and a lot will depend on the type of relationship that your wife has with your MIL. It sounds like your wife is on board with not taking one for the team so to speak, and I'm sure that is a relief for you. The lost trust funds are another travesty, your MIL obviously has little regard for her daughter's well-being and your wife needs to keep that in mind while dealing with the fallout. Good luck.

Double Post

civ2k1 said:   vegetation said:   chimeer said:   If the accounts were 7+ years old isn't there a fair chance the fraud MIL committed is now past the statute of limitations for criminal prosecution?

Main problem is that prosecutors do not like to touch old cases like this. It loses jury appeal. Also potentially a big problem with documentation as it's so aged, institutions are not required to retain this information. Someone also already pointed out how a defense can be raised where the mother used the funds to ensure food was kept on the table, especially if this was a single mother raising a child, where it loses even more jury appeal. The amount of money involved is not unusually large.

Also, I would not bother sueing unless you know the mother is collectible. From the sounds of it, this is unlikely - more than likely a financially irresponsible individual who leaches off one person to another to survive. If I'm wrong, where she has strong earning potential then by all means go for it. Else, don't beat a dead horse.


If mom is relatively young (25 yr old daughter, mom could be 43-45 easily). With implants and a focus on good looks, mom could bag another whale and end up married again to a rich guy. It might be worth suing mom for the missing trust fund money, and holding onto the judgement in case mom gets remarried. Then pursue collection on the judgment once there are marital assets. So, even if judgement proof today, that might not be the case in a year from now.


I agree. We really need pics of of the MILILF to be able to asses whether or not she could bag another whale and suing would be viable or not.

Throw her so far under the bus she comes out the other end in a striped suit.

Users! BAH!

Nessy said:   This not as uncommon as you might think. I've worked with young adults trying to get GEDs and other skills they missed for one reason or another. The number of these young people who have parents who committed identity theft to get things like phones, loans and access to apartments was quiet disheartening. It is a violation of a trust and charge. They make it difficult for young people to start off in life, and they do not even know it's a problem until they try to get something like a phone or a credit card. These parents count on their blood not to turn them in and tell them to just wait out the credit report. I fine the practice sickening and grossly unreported.
In a way we're all guilty of doing it. Nobody seems to take the government budget deficits every year seriously. We expect our kids will pay for all the excess government spending programs we're enjoying today.

Nessy said:   KYBOSH said:   Blood is thicker than mud folks.


Either way, there was no way I was going to call the fuzz on my old man.


This is why it keeps happening. This not as uncommon as you might think.


Yep, there was an almost carbon copy of this in my family. The Mom had trashed her credit so fraudulently opened accounts as her child, ran them up and trashed her child's credit too. Clearly she has no morals (but she does have a lot of handbags and shoes).

KYBOSH said:   Blood is thicker than mud folks.

Something similar happened to me back in the day.
Dad was caughtup in the stock bubble of 2000.
Was a heavy day trader and making a lot of e-money.

One day when I was expecting a tax refund I got a tax bill for $500k.
Seems daddy dearest opened up a E-Trade account in my name when his was limited/frozen.

When I confronted him about it he simply gave me a few docs and told me to file it as a loss (no taxes owed).
I learned a few lessons from that experience. Having to file the amended tax forms myself (when the most experience I ever had with tax forms was a 1040EZ) was icing on the cake.

Either way, there was no way I was going to call the fuzz on my old man.
And one thing you need to ask yourself... if it was YOUR MOM who did this to you would you be so quick on pressing charges?
Probably not.

As you said, most of it is past the SOL and thus a few well written disputes will get them off the credit reports.
The student loan thingy is another issue and I cant figure out how she pulled that off.


Not really similar. You didn't get your credit score jacked up, collection agencies hustling, you weren't in real debt, your solution was simple. Not the case for OP's wife. You're not even in the same pity party.

sabhinav said:   Why does the MIL have to be thrown under the bus? Let the creditors do the investigation, wife can claim she is a victim of ID theft and she did not sign (under 18 whatever).
Because she is a criminal who stole from her daughter and son. The mom just created years of headaches when it comes to her kids buying a house or car. F-her. She's a worthless criminal.

saladdin said:   sabhinav said:   Why does the MIL have to be thrown under the bus? Let the creditors do the investigation, wife can claim she is a victim of ID theft and she did not sign (under 18 whatever).
Because she is a criminal who stole from her daughter and son. The mom just created years of headaches when it comes to her kids buying a house or car. F-her. She's a worthless criminal.


But she's OP's criminal. I guess you've never had a delinquent family member.

sabhinav said:   Why does the MIL have to be thrown under the bus? Let the creditors do the investigation, wife can claim she is a victim of ID theft and she did not sign (under 18 whatever).

Anytime I've disputed charges for more than a couple hundred dollars, I've had to sign a statement basically saying that I wasn't involved in the charges & that I didn't know who was. I wouldn't lie on something like that to save a deadbeat like your MIL.

I'm just surprised no one has mentioned Jerry Springer.

hfzeus said:   I'm just surprised no one has mentioned Jerry Springer.Identity theft is too High Brow for Springer.

You won't see Identity theft coming to blows on camera.

Al3xK said:   saladdin said:   sabhinav said:   Why does the MIL have to be thrown under the bus? Let the creditors do the investigation, wife can claim she is a victim of ID theft and she did not sign (under 18 whatever).
Because she is a criminal who stole from her daughter and son. The mom just created years of headaches when it comes to her kids buying a house or car. F-her. She's a worthless criminal.


But she's OP's criminal. I guess you've never had a delinquent family member.

Sure have. And had no issues cutting them out. I have plenty of relatives who are not quality people and I have nothing to do with them. I surround myself with people of character regardless of relation. My mother has never seen my kids and never will. Ever.

sabhinav said:   Why does the MIL have to be thrown under the bus? Let the creditors do the investigation, wife can claim she is a victim of ID theft and she did not sign (under 18 whatever).

That's a shitty attitude and it will come out eventually that it was the MIL. If the OP's amateur sleuthing uncovered the MIL's involvement, you don't think a bank's fraud department will?

Good luck OP. crappy situation.

If it were me, I'd let your wife decide on what to do. If it were my mother, I'd file the report. Parents aren't supposed to screw up their children's future.

I've cutoff a few family members, including my mother, for bad behavior a few years back (kinda like Saladdin in his post). The good family members thought I was cold for doing so. This year they apologized to me after being drug through the mud for the past couple of years with issues they should have been involved with. Moral of the story, do what's right for your future and don't look back.

Sonofspam said:   Throw momma from the train.Stop of My Mom Will Shoot

Mother in law is remarried to husband number five. On top of that she loves to tell my wife all about the new stuff he buys her. They have a joint bank account. Oh and I'm the deadbeat husband who forces his wife to work. (That's her view). Her student loans were started in 2006 and continued through 2009. Not sure how the SOL will work with those. We have pressed the companies for proof of my wife's involvement and they say she attended the college so it is on her. The loans were done through an electronic signature. I told her mom we had proof she signed the loans and she said there's no way bc she e-signed them. Admitting her guilt.

Dude stop playing investigator . That's not your or your wife's duty. All she needs to do is certify she did not apply or receive those loans . It's up to the lenders and police to investigate who actually did it , if they wish.

Seriously , stop calling people. Stop requesting copies of document and signatures . Just start disputing the accounts off the report. Only in writing . Do not call anyone or listen to their BS why your wife is responsible .

sabhinav said:   Why does the MIL have to be thrown under the bus? Let the creditors do the investigation, wife can claim she is a victim of ID theft and she did not sign (under 18 whatever).
Huh? Anyone who does that to her daughter should be thrown under the bus, have the bus back up, and run over her again.

Anyone who would so selfishly put a family member's future in jeopardy is a horrible human being.

Usorry said:   Good luck OP. crappy situation.

If it were me, I'd let your wife decide on what to do. If it were my mother, I'd file the report. Parents aren't supposed to screw up their children's future.

I've cutoff a few family members, including my mother, for bad behavior a few years back (kinda like Saladdin in his post). The good family members thought I was cold for doing so. This year they apologized to me after being drug through the mud for the past couple of years with issues they should have been involved with. Moral of the story, do what's right for your future and don't look back.
Exactly - it's your wife's choice, but I too would file a report if it was my mother. Thankfully I only ever had to cut off one family member, also my mother, for over a decade (for nasty behavior). Good news is this time away finally got her to realize she needed to change her behavior, and we have a civil relationship now. While not likely, it could force her to realize she can't go on this way.

Bizatch said:   mrockosaurus said:   but the money was spent on breast implants
At least she made a wise investment.


As a business expense / investment, it could even be tax deductible (#6 here: http://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/tax-tips/Tax-Deductions-and...

I don't understand why is it so hard to cut her off? Do you depend on her? would she ruin relationship with other members of the family or friends? It it someone you have to see often? Are you planning to get help from her with your future kids? If NO is the answer, you know what to do.

She is causing misery and pain for 2 people (or more) already for many years. You need to teach her a lesson. If you are going to let it slide, she is never going to stop. Yes she is a family, or is she? if you treat your family worse than your enemies. Apparently she has no issue throwing you under a bus at any given time.

Put your emotions aside, no one is going to give you your life time back while MIL is enjoying her life at your cost.

I don't like the suggestion that the debt is for the police and creditors to sort out and the OP and his wife should tell the police that they have "no proof" as to who did it (SIS). OP knows who did it. Why should he keep that a secret from the police? The OP is obviously not interested only in clearing up his wife's credit. This wasn't just simply a financial fraud, it was a personal betrayal. If OP is interested helping the authorities pursue justice, then that's his prerogative. I even think it's a bit noble. Who knows? Maybe if getting prosecuted stings a bit, the mother will think twice before she goes on her next ID theft credit spending binge using someone else's SSN.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Dude stop playing investigator . That's not your or your wife's duty. All she needs to do is certify she did not apply or receive those loans . It's up to the lenders and police to investigate who actually did it , if they wish.

Seriously , stop calling people. Stop requesting copies of document and signatures . Just start disputing the accounts off the report. Only in writing . Do not call anyone or listen to their BS why your wife is responsible .


Gotta +1 that.
Although OP seems to want to play Columbo with this issue.
Oh yeah, just one more thing....

aaron27 said:   I don't like the suggestion that the debt is for the police and creditors to sort out and the OP and his wife should tell the police that they have "no proof" as to who did it (SIS). OP knows who did it. Why should he keep that a secret from the police? The OP is obviously not interested only in clearing up his wife's credit. This wasn't just simply a financial fraud, it was a personal betrayal. If OP is interested helping the authorities pursue justice, then that's his prerogative. I even think it's a bit noble. Who knows? Maybe if getting prosecuted stings a bit, the mother will think twice before she goes on her next ID theft credit spending binge using someone else's SSN.

What proof does the OP have? OP is a witness to the mother-in-law's verbal statements. Period. OP has given no indication that he has any other evidence.

I don't want to live in a country where you can be criminally convicted of financial fraud based on the verbal testimony of a son-in-law who heard his mother-in-law brag. Oh, and that testimony also hinges on the son-in-law vouching for his wife's honesty and non-involvement.

I am not a lawyer and I am greatly oversimplifying, but the point is that OP does not have the credible evidence to justify spending the money to investigate/prosecute the mother-in-law. The financial institutions have that evidence.

To make an investigation worthwhile and fruitful, the financial institutions are going to have to want that investigation. They are not going to even care about it until the debts are invalidated and they incur the losses.

Again, it's not the OP's job (or his wife's) to connect those dots and attempting to do so is wasting time and resources. OP is not looking to recoup the bank's money, OP's goal is to clean up his wife's credit and remove those debts.

OP needs to start the thread in the creditboards forum, lay it all out (debts, amounts, dates, etc...). They will help sort out priorities and first steps. They will help create a plan that leads to successful deletion of the debts from the credit reports. They will have experience on what to say or mail to the various creditors to invalidate the debts as quick as possible. OP does not have to lie to the creditors, but everytime OP goes off on a tangent with them, it just complicates and delays the process.


Good Luck OP.

pictures?

aaron27 said:   I don't like the suggestion that the debt is for the police and creditors to sort out and the OP and his wife should tell the police that they have "no proof" as to who did it (SIS). OP knows who did it. Why should he keep that a secret from the police? The OP is obviously not interested only in clearing up his wife's credit. This wasn't just simply a financial fraud, it was a personal betrayal. If OP is interested helping the authorities pursue justice, then that's his prerogative. I even think it's a bit noble. Who knows? Maybe if getting prosecuted stings a bit, the mother will think twice before she goes on her next ID theft credit spending binge using someone else's SSN.

Exactly, and I believe part of those fraud affidavits there is usually a question which says "Do you know who did this" type of thing and under penalty of perjury you should answer correctly and honestly. If you don't answer honestly, they can and will deny your claim AND they will most likely make them file a police report. When the police ask if you know who may have done this, are you going to lie to them too? Withholding evidence of a crime is also a crime, so there is no acting dumb here.

There is a big distinction between knowing who did this vs having a suspicion about who did this . All op and his wife have are unfounded suspicions the mom did it

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   There is a big distinction between knowing who did this vs having a suspicion about who did this . All op and his wife have are unfounded suspicions the mom did it

Considering that mom admitted using e-signature for school loans, "unfounded" is plain wrong. Won't stand to scrutiny in a court of law? Yeah. Unfounded? May be you just missed a few posts.

OP's wife's credit is probably thrashed beyond apps at this point, but I'd say OP's wife needs to put a freeze on her credit, and probably keep it in place for as long as the MIL is alive. After all, what's to stop a repeat. Especially after #5 wises up. OP may wish to do the same if MIL ever has the means to get his SSN.

RushnRockt said:   SUCKISSTAPLES said:   There is a big distinction between knowing who did this vs having a suspicion about who did this . All op and his wife have are unfounded suspicions the mom did it

Considering that mom admitted using e-signature for school loans, "unfounded" is plain wrong. Won't stand to scrutiny in a court of law? Yeah. Unfounded? May be you just missed a few posts.


Or... maybe he's trying to help OP out and you need to read between the lines a little better.

Many of those who take advantage of family members like the MIL has do so knowing they are causing a very emotional situation. They also know that they can use guilt and emotion to manipulate people in this case the OP's wife into not taking the same action if the MIL was some stranger

Confronted the mil with evidence, forged signatures and other documents proving my wife's non involvement, and she was stunned. She thought she was going to be free and clear of these issues. The problem was she didn't show a single bit of remorse. She admitted she did what she is accused of but offered nothing but excuses for why she did it. She tried to hide it from her new husband but I made sure he knew what was going on. To no surprise he defended her saying she would never do this. On top of that he challenged us to see if any police officer would ever touch this case. I didn't show him the proof we have on her but he'll find out the hard way. My wife is on board with pressing charges. On top of that she wants to sue her for the money that was stolen from her. We have disputed everything. We have no problem helping the police in whatever they need to know. Now I even have text messages admitting to us she took out the loans, signed for them and refused to pay them as she did it for her daughter. She can't seem to grasp that signing someone else's name is illegal. The evidence is there but we're treating her more along the lines of a bad child. The only way to teach her is to spank her to let her know she was wrong but my wife will always love her. She just going to have to deal with the consequences of her actions. We will see how the relationship plays out but I think she will not want to see us when it's all said and done not the other way around. As a person who is not blood I would have no problem never seeing this woman again but it's not my call.



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