taxes on cashback

Link to an article or IRS publication?

The commonly accepted (although debated) stance on this forum is that CashBack/rewards on personal usage is not taxable. However, any rebates/rewards on products that you resell or for business usage are taxable because they reduce your total cost of the item.

i just heard it on the radio, and it didn't really click until now.
it was an online radio station, maybe its in Europe...

no, i swear, i really heard it on the radio, like i said it was internet radio, so it could have been a european station. but if they get taxes on CashBack, we would likely get it too eventually...

A great anticapitalist idea for the taxationists. To ask the question is to make it a candidate for the next round of revenue raisers.

I ask nicely...can we please let this thread die?

nsdp said:   I practiced criminal tax law for over 15 years. The only thing we have positive guidance on are airline miles that is due to the restricted nature of redemption. Points on on standard regular credit cards are taxable to the extent you earned the points by engaging in a tax deductible transaction. You buy office supplies for your small business and deduct the expense then redemption of the points is taxable just like your winnings on Wheel of Fortune. Cash Back for personal use is treated as a reduction in the purchase price aka rebate. If Cash Back is from business purposes or a scheme to create income (think the mint sales of coins bought with Cash Back cards) Cash Back is taxable. Rebates on tax deductible items are taxable.

""Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived" 26 USC61 so if the tax code doesn't exclude it, it is taxable.
This is probably the on valid information provided, but most people won't actually bother to pay attention.

If you pay business expenses with a cash-back card and are subsequently reimbursed for those expenses, the CashBack becomes income. Of course, you'd have to take it upon yourself to report it.

nsdp said:   Points on on standard regular credit cards are taxable to the extent you earned the points by engaging in a tax deductible transaction ... If Cash Back is from business purposes or a scheme to create income (think the mint sales of coins bought with Cash Back cards) Cash Back is taxableThanks, that is good news. Points earned by mint purchases are not taxable at all, since it would be hard to claim as tax deductible transactions unless you are a coin dealer or whatever.

Where does the IRS discuss what constitutes a Cash Back credit card scheme to create income ?

xoneinax said:   nsdp said:   Points on on standard regular credit cards are taxable to the extent you earned the points by engaging in a tax deductible transaction ... If Cash Back is from business purposes or a scheme to create income (think the mint sales of coins bought with Cash Back cards) Cash Back is taxableThanks, that is good news. Points earned by mint purchases are not taxable at all, since it would be hard to claim as tax deductible transactions unless you are a coin dealer or whatever.

 

Where does the IRS discuss what constitutes a Cash Back credit card scheme to create income ?

If you buy 100 dollar coins for $100 get $2 in CashBack and 'sell' the dollar coins to the bank for $100 you generated $2 income above your cost basis of $98. He is saying technically that is reportable income.

nsdp said:   That is exactly the position that the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit took in a similar matter for cases coming up out of the tax courts. If you want to try the US District Court and the numbered court of appeals you may get a different answer or you may not.

The opinion on file by IRS only covers airline mileage programs; nothing that has come down the road since is covered by the ruling.
Please provide a cite for this "similar matter". If you can't or won't, please stop making legal judgments that you won't substantiate.

nsdp said:   Bad news for you on the points on the mint deal. If you redeposited the coins at your bank without spending any, the RFID tag will identify you for purposes of 26 USC 7201.
RFID tags on every coin or even every coin roll? As Joan Rivers would say: Puhleeze!

nsdp said:   IRS doesn't, DOJ does. It is in the DOJ prosecution manual for 26 USC 7206. Bad news for you on the points on the mint deal. If you redeposited the coins at your bank without spending any, the RFID tag will identify you for purposes of 26 USC 7201So the IRS does not care about points, but the DOJ does ?

nsdp said:   No when it hits the prosecution manual then that is the official position to be followed by every one in every agency. IRS has different interpretations between employees and you may find one agent looks at one part of the manual on an issue while another may look at a different paragraph. The DOJ manual means that there is only one way to look at the issue. DOJ manuals are a legal opinion that a defendant can use in court against the government. The IRS manual is advisory only, the court is free to say the IRS got it wrong .
Cant the court also say the DOJ got it wrong? Isnt that one of the points of having an independent judiciary?

I sincerely doubt you have one of the scanners used by the Federal Reserve. Those are not commercially available and you would get nailed for unauthorized possession of government property. Your scanner is about as similar to a Federal Reserve scanner as the BlackBerry you get from AT&T is to the ones use by the President and the Secret Service. Completely different set of frequencies.

glxpass said:   kb2120 said:   xoneinax said:   nsdp said:   Points on on standard regular credit cards are taxable to the extent you earned the points by engaging in a tax deductible transaction ... If Cash Back is from business purposes or a scheme to create income (think the mint sales of coins bought with Cash Back cards) Cash Back is taxableThanks, that is good news. Points earned by mint purchases are not taxable at all, since it would be hard to claim as tax deductible transactions unless you are a coin dealer or whatever.

 

Where does the IRS discuss what constitutes a Cash Back credit card scheme to create income ?

If you buy 100 dollar coins for $100 get $2 in CashBack and 'sell' the dollar coins to the bank for $100 you generated $2 income above your cost basis of $98. He is saying technically that is reportable income.
It's an opinion, which may or may not be true. IMO, consulting with a trusted tax advisor is far superior to hoping a FWF thread could be definitive in this matter.

ETA: That's probably one reason this thread is garnering so much red. This subject has already been discussed to death with no real conclusion reached, and OP's vague comment adds nothing of value.

Ok glxpass I will provide a explanation that I have found even a 5th grader can understand. I tried it on my greatniece(10 years old) before posting it here and she could understand it.

Rule 1. repeated from posting above that you didn't read or else could not comprehend above. ""Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived" 26 USC61 so if the tax code doesn't exclude it, it is taxable. It is like the coin toss: heads IRS wins , tails You Lose.

Rule 2. IRS Publication 525 You must include kickbacks, side commissions, push money, or similar payments you receive in your income on Form 1040, line 21, or on Schedule C or Schedule CEZ (Form 1040) if from your selfemployment activity.Example. You sell cars and help arrange car insurance for buyers. Insurance brokers pay back part of their commissions to you for referring customers to them. You must include the kickbacks in your income. If you receive prize points redeemable for merchandise, you must include their fair market value in your income. The prize points are taxable in the year they are paid or made available to you, rather than in the year you redeem them for merchandise. The only exception is when the points are given to you by the merchant and qualify as a reduction in the purchase price paid directly by you to that merchant. CashBack or points for purchases are kickbacks. If the card is a WalMart card and you get back 15 cents/gallon on gasoline purchased at WalMart/Murphy then it is not taxable. If you do it with your Chase card it is taxable because Chase has no affiliation with WalMart. Affinity cards such as Costco/AMEX are muddy but the legal presumption is unless the IRS specifically says it IS NOT income, it is. Airline miles are the only ones we have clear guidance on.

Rule 3 Bartering. If you claim the points are a form of barter then read the following:Is Bartering Taxable?
It sure is. According to Scott Estill, a former senior IRS trial attorney and the author of "Tax This! An Insider's Guide To Standing Up To The IRS," casual exchanges between non-commercial parties for similar services is usually not taxable. Offering to cut a neighbor's grass while they are on vacation in exchange for the same, for example, won't trigger a tax consequence (the key to this that you are both non-business parties, and the value is nearly identical.). Go get his book. He lays it all out for you. If you don't understand remember:

"Barter exchanges, both online and in person, need to be reported on Form 1099-B, unless they occur through a barter exchange with less than 100 transactions during the year, are done with an exempt foreign person (as defined by the IRS), and involve property or services less than $1."

Now if you still don't understand put down in print what part of this law you CANNOT understand: "Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived" As far as the IRS is concerned Cash Back whether from fatwallet or your credit card is taxable income. It's a kickback not a rebate from the seller. Points are a form of bartering. If you still don't think so FIND the SECTION OF TITLE 26 that says it isn't taxable. I have proven the positive; you now have to prove the negative. That is how tax law works.

nsdp said:   I sincerely doubt you have one of the scanners used by the Federal Reserve. Those are not commercially available and you would get nailed for unauthorized possession of government property. Your scanner is about as similar to a Federal Reserve scanner as the BlackBerry you get from AT&T is to the ones use by the President and the Secret Service. Completely different set of frequencies.Let me get this right, so you are saying there's RFID tag in coins or not?

I am sure I have heard about this. It was on this obscure forum called Fatwallet Finance.

It has been put in the wrapper for the roll. Done after the Patriot Act to stop money laundering. Most crooks are not smart enough to unwrap the roll and reroll in a new wrapper. There were about 5 coin dealers buying rolls back in 2004 and shipping them to Mexico via UPS to coin shops there. Big wads of bills attract attention at the border; coins going by UPS to coin shops don't. RFID allowed ICE to track the coins all the way to the drug dealers in Mexico.

nsdp said:   It has been put in the wrapper for the roll. Done after the Patriot Act to stop money laundering. Most crooks are not smart enough to unwrap the roll and reroll in a new wrapper. There were about 5 coin dealers buying rolls back in 2004 and shipping them to Mexico via UPS to coin shops there. Big wads of bills attract attention at the border; coins going by UPS to coin shops don't. RFID allowed ICE to track the coins all the way to the drug dealers in Mexico.
Wait, so maybe you are really saying that there was a sting, and law enforcement sent these 5 deals marked coins so that they could be traced? I could see that, they use marked bills all the time. But it'd be a far cry from what you have been claiming thusfar.

nsdp said:   CreditGuy said:   Oh, nsdp is just pulling your leg. Of course there aren't any RFIDs in coins. And nsdp is being just as frivolous about CashBack.

Whether CashBack is or isn't income has been discussed here and elsewhere endlessly. In one sense, of course it's income--that's obvious. But the question remains whether it's taxable income that you have to report to the IRS. And the answer is also clear on that. Pay no attention to rational arguments about what is or is not income. Look at the actual treatment by the IRS, by your credit card bank, by ANYONE.

1) Banks do not send 1099 forms or report CashBack as income, regardless of the amount.
2) Those endless legal forms you get with credit cards never say CashBack is income.
3) If you're subject to backup withholding, you can't receive the full amount of any taxable income you earn. The person sending you the income has to withhold a certain amount and submit it directly to the IRS. That's why every brokerage account and every checking account asks that question about whether you're subject to backup withholding. The question doesn't appear on any credit card application.
4) No one has ever produced a court case in which a taxpayer was charged penalties and/or interest for failure to report CashBack. Surely there are many millions of people who have CashBack--and therefore many millions who never report CashBack. If the IRS truly thinks CashBack is taxable income, we would know it. People would post here, whine about how unfair it is--it wouldn't be secret. Even those who search diligently for guidance on the issue through legal databases come up with zip.

For various reasons, the IRS has decided to ignore CashBack. It's obvious. Forgeddaboutit. If the high paid attorneys your bank hires don't think it's taxable, why should you?

Ok lets go through your BS

Item 1 Read the instructions for 1099 K http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1099k.pdf There is a thread for members here who got bit on this last year. Most were for eBay or Amazon sales but a number had large Cash Back amounts using Citi or Chase.

Item 2 The tax liability determination of the money reported on a 1099K is your obligation to determine not your credit card issuer's.

Item 3 Only if you have notified the credit card company that you are subject to back up withholding will that happen. credit card rebates and rebates in general are exempted from backup with holding unless s the amount is over $10k when another provision kicks in.

Item 4 You didn't read the Chiu Brothers thread in Washington state. That is why they plead guilty to wire fraud; less jail time. 24 months worth. IRS did send the target letter to the Chius and that is in the court file if you have paid for Pacer service. Also there was another out of California on Cisco routers rebates covered in a separate thread here last year. Cash Back cards were involved there with the card holders in Macao and Hong Kong.

I can't see as you know anything worthwhile. You certainly aren't qualified to practice in tax court as an enrolled agent or a CPA or as an attorney licensed by the Federal Judicial Service.His BS? What about your BS? 1099-Ks have absolutely nothing to do with anything being discussed here. They are sent by third-party processors, not banks or credit cards. And have nothing to do with CashBack.