Determining my actual salary

cai24 said:   I was wondering if someone could help me with a salary question. I have been contemplating leaving my current job for an offer that I just received. I don't make very much money, and I am trying to figure out if this offer is comparable to what I am making now. Right now, I am earning about $41K per year. I just received a job offer for $35K, which I thought was a little low. It's the same job I am doing now, but I think this new company will be a better fit for me. I just wish the base pay wasn't $6K less. However, since I am non-exempt, I am eligible for overtime.

I would be working 42 hours per week. Would I be paid overtime for these additional two hours? Also, there would be a 10% shift differential involved. I think it starts at 5:00 PM, but I have to double check. If this is the case, 7 hours of my shift would be eligible for the differential.

There is also up to $12K in incentive pay available, but in reality, I probably would only earn $2-5K. Could someone explain to me how these numbers compute? Do the numbers justify me making a switch?

I appreciate any input, and I am sorry if this is a dumb question!Your question sounds too company specific. You should ask your HR these questions first, then report to us and we'll give you a better opinion.

Glitch99 said:   cai24 said:   I was wondering if someone could help me with a salary question. I have been contemplating leaving my current job for an offer that I just received. I don't make very much money, and I am trying to figure out if this offer is comparable to what I am making now. Your problem is that you are trying to evaluate annual salary, but you are an hourly employee.

What are you being paid hourly? There's your answer to which job pays more.

I'm trying to evaluate annual salary, because it's more complicated than an hourly wage. At my current job, I work a 40 hour week and earn $19.23 per hour. I also usually receive $1K per year in incentive pay. Basically, this amounts to $41K.

For the offer I just received, they offered me $35K. I am non-exempt, so that would be converted to an hourly wage (~$16.83/hour). It's a $6K difference, but the following aspects of this offer would narrow the gap:

1. I would be working 42 hours instead of 40. I'm assuming that since I'm non-exempt, I would earn overtime pay for these two additional hours. (Not sure if this is correct or not, but I am under the impression that overtime is effective once 40 hours are exceeded.)

2. There is a 10% shift differential that I would be paid. I think that 28 of my 42 weekly hours would be eligible for the differential. I don't know how the differential works in conjunction with the overtime.

3. There is up to $12K in incentive available. I don't really know the parameters and how easy it is to earn. I would certainly try to earn as much as possible, but I'm not sure what is realistic.

Hopefully, I have clarified everything a little better. I'm just trying to get an idea of what my new pay will look like. Thanks for the responses!

BingBlangBlaow covered it pretty well. If you leave you're looking at a wash unless you make at least 50% of the incentive. Find out more about what it takes to earn it.
Also don't forget to look at cost differences for the medical plan, as well as other benefits such as 401k match and tuition reimbursement.

cai24 said:   I think this new company will be a better fit for me.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

have you tried negotiating the offer at the new company? just because they offered a certain amount does not mean that is the maximum they would pay you. the maximum could be much higher.

dealmaster00 said:   have you tried negotiating the offer at the new company? just because they offered a certain amount does not mean that is the maximum they would pay you. the maximum could be much higher.

No, I haven't tried to negotiate. I guess part of me is nervous that if I ask for more money, it will make me look bad. I know that probably sounds silly. I also get concerned that they'll increase their expectations significantly, and I'll feel a lot of pressure. I'm not afraid to work, so I may be sightly overanalyzing the whole situation.

If I were to ask for slightly more money, what is typically the best approach? Would it be rude to e-mail my HR contact? Should I handle this by phone?

If you're working toward a degree, how does tuition reimbursement compare?

What is the difference in cost of benefits (health, dental, vision, any others)?

401K matching? Old versus new?

Difference in distance/cost to commute?

There are a lot of factors beyond salary that go into the picture.

dealmaster00 said:   cai24 said:   dealmaster00 said:   have you tried negotiating the offer at the new company? just because they offered a certain amount does not mean that is the maximum they would pay you. the maximum could be much higher.

No, I haven't tried to negotiate. I guess part of me is nervous that if I ask for more money, it will make me look bad. I know that probably sounds silly. I also get concerned that they'll increase their expectations significantly, and I'll feel a lot of pressure. I'm not afraid to work, so I may be sightly overanalyzing the whole situation.

If I were to ask for slightly more money, what is typically the best approach? Would it be rude to e-mail my HR contact? Should I handle this by phone?I understand. I kinda felt the same way when I was going to accept my first job offer. But, you shouldn't be shy. This is your salary - it will be the basis for all future salaries. In my case, I did end up negotiating and got $8k more added (they matched an offer by a different company).

I don't know exactly what job you applied for or where you are working, but in my humble opinion, and in the general case, it would be best to do the negotiating over the phone. You should be frank with them - tell them that you are very interested in working for them, and you think you would be a great match for the company, but your current job pays more than their offer.

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Interlude - when you negotiate, it is common to meet in middle ground. If you really want $41k, and you tell them you want $41k, they might counter offer $38k. This means your offer should be higher than what you actually expect to be paid.

Do you have more responsibilities at the new job? Were you underpaid at your previous job? Is the work harder, or is there more work? It sounds like there is at least slightly more work (42 hours vs 40 hours). Things like these could be part of an argument to get more than $41k.
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So, to continue what I was saying before the interlude, you should then make an argument about why you deserve to be paid more. Depending on how good your argument is, you could say you want $45k, $50k, hell, I don't really know. But, if you have a good argument, this could bump the lower ground from $35k to $41k. What I mean is, if you offer $50k with a good argument, they could meet you in the middle at 45.5k ($41k being the lower ground) rather than 42.5k ($35k being the lower ground).

This is, in my experience, the art of negotiating. People who are bad at negotiating (or maybe, if you are really good at negotiating) will cave (if you offer $50k, they say yes). Maybe there are circumstances beyond their control, and they are unable to offer more. But you aren't gonna know unless you ask.

There is a real human being on the other side of the phone, and you should try to convince them why you should be paid more. The worst case is they'd just say no - and in that case, it didn't hurt to ask.

There's probably more information online about how to negotiate a job offer - the above is only based on my opinion and experiences. Please keep us updated, OP.

Edit: What mikk1 says above my post is an excellent point - if anything here bolsters your argument, you need to include it.

Wow, thank you so much for your input! I think that I'd be satisfied with $1-2K more. I'm going to think of some compelling reasons tomorrow, and I'll talk with them on Monday.

tedteddy said:   cai24 said:   I think this new company will be a better fit for me.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

True that, I'd love to be making 41k!

Isn't the fact that you make $41k now and work less hours compelling reasons enough to negotiate a higher offer? Just call them up, thank them for the offer, and tell them that you are struggling with the fact that you make $41k at your current position and they offered you only $35k. Tell them you're really excited to work for them but you will need to be closer to $41k base for you to accept the offer.

They'll counter back that with up to $12k in incentives at the new job that you could make above your current $41k and you should then counter back that you are close to another raise at your current place of work or that you can get similar incentive pay at current place of work, etc. (this is where you think up a good pay-related reason why you should be paid more).

I'd counter back to the new employer at least $40k (and probably more). Assuming everything else is equal (commute time, fringe benefits, promotion/raise opportunities), there's no reason to go to the new place for less pay. As long as you didn't make yourself sound desperate to leave your current job and you are the best candidate for the position, you should have no problem get a couple of extra $k through negotiations.

If they stonewall you on extra pay, then try for more vacation days, or better 401k benefits, etc....and be prepared to walk if you get nothing. More hours for less pay sounds like a raw deal...unless, once again, there are some other positives that the new job has over the old job.

What's going on?

1. If the new company is aware of your current salary, why are they offering less?

2. Why are you considering the new job?

Generally, one of the reasons to hop jobs is to get more pay. In the good old days, an increase of about 15% was typical. I'm assuming that's still the case.

cai24 said:   dealmaster00 said:   have you tried negotiating the offer at the new company? just because they offered a certain amount does not mean that is the maximum they would pay you. the maximum could be much higher.

No, I haven't tried to negotiate. I guess part of me is nervous that if I ask for more money, it will make me look bad. I know that probably sounds silly. I also get concerned that they'll increase their expectations significantly, and I'll feel a lot of pressure. I'm not afraid to work, so I may be sightly overanalyzing the whole situation.

If I were to ask for slightly more money, what is typically the best approach? Would it be rude to e-mail my HR contact? Should I handle this by phone?

Do it by phone. Never demand. Simply say "I would love to come work for you. Unfortunately, I'd hate to take a pay cut to do so. My current pay is about $41K per year. Could you do better than that?"

dealmaster00 said:   cai24 said:   Wow, thank you so much for your input! I think that I'd be satisfied with $1-2K more. I'm going to think of some compelling reasons tomorrow, and I'll talk with them on Monday.Anytime! In that case, I think you should try counter offering $45k a year (after establishing the fact that the minimum you'd expect to be paid is $41k), and see what they come back with. Again, just my opinion. Best of luck!

cai24, note what dealmasetr00 implied. You should be thinking about baselining from your current pay, NOT the proposed pay. 95% of jobhubters wouldn't even consider a new job that didn't at least match their current pay.

Modern said:   I'd be careful with making assumptions. If they presented an offer of $35K/year, that may be with the shift differential and any regular overtime rolled in already. Ask them explicitly what the hourly rate will be. Don't assume anything lest you be surprised in a bad way later.
This. I still don't see how they could quote an annual salary, with all the ifs and buts you've mentioned - if you are hourly, you are paid per hour, and all that matters is the hourly rate. You can't factor in anything else without that baseline.

The 42 hours probably doesn't include overtime. Overtime would be hours above this. How do you know that you'll get any overtime?

cai24 said:   BrodyInsurance said:   The 42 hours probably doesn't include overtime. Overtime would be hours above this. How do you know that you'll get any overtime?

I really don't know if I would get overtime. I'm sure there is a possibility if I perform well, but there are obviously no guarantees. I thought that the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) requires overtime pay when 40 hours are exceeded in a work week. Is that incorrect?

You are probably correct about that. However, you probably get a 30 minute lunch break every day. You don't get compensated for this. You, most likely, are working 10 hours a day with a 30 minute break which you may be incorrectly translating into a 10 1/2 hour work day.

"Bona fide meal periods (typically lasting at least 30 minutes), serve a different purpose than coffee or snack breaks and, thus, are not work time and are not compensable." Source: http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/workhours/breaks.htm

cai24 said:   Glitch99 said:   Modern said:   I'd be careful with making assumptions. If they presented an offer of $35K/year, that may be with the shift differential and any regular overtime rolled in already. Ask them explicitly what the hourly rate will be. Don't assume anything lest you be surprised in a bad way later.
This. I still don't see how they could quote an annual salary, with all the ifs and buts you've mentioned - if you are hourly, you are paid per hour, and all that matters is the hourly rate. You can't factor in anything else without that baseline.

I actually do know that the $35K doesn't include the differential and overtime. The hiring manager said something along the lines of "With overtime and differential, your pay should work out about the same." I just wanted to make sure he was accurate. It wasn't like he worked it out on paper, but I guess he would have a decent idea.
You are going to go with a "should work out about the same" from a guy who just wants to fill out his schedule?

You keep avoiding mentioning the hourly rate, which I assume is just shy of $17/hour. Paid time off would be a big factor as well, since if you miss an hour work, you lose an hour pay.

cai24 said:   Glitch99 said:   cai24 said:   Glitch99 said:   Modern said:   I'd be careful with making assumptions. If they presented an offer of $35K/year, that may be with the shift differential and any regular overtime rolled in already. Ask them explicitly what the hourly rate will be. Don't assume anything lest you be surprised in a bad way later.
This. I still don't see how they could quote an annual salary, with all the ifs and buts you've mentioned - if you are hourly, you are paid per hour, and all that matters is the hourly rate. You can't factor in anything else without that baseline.

I actually do know that the $35K doesn't include the differential and overtime. The hiring manager said something along the lines of "With overtime and differential, your pay should work out about the same." I just wanted to make sure he was accurate. It wasn't like he worked it out on paper, but I guess he would have a decent idea.
You are going to go with a "should work out about the same" from a guy who just wants to fill out his schedule?

You keep avoiding mentioning the hourly rate, which I assume is just shy of $17/hour. Paid time off would be a big factor as well, since if you miss an hour work, you lose an hour pay.

I must have missed you asking, but I did put the hourly rate in one of my earlier posts. It's $16.83/hour.My appologies, I missed it when you posted it earlier.

Like others have said, I wouldnt expect the normal week to be 42 hours, it'll be 40 hours plus 4 .5-hour lunchbreaks. I'd also assume the manager's comment of it working out about the same "with overtime" to mean you should expect to be able to work extra days. So to "work out the same", you'll be working alot of extra hours and even that is far from a guaranteed opportunity.

cai24 said:   dealmaster00 said:   have you tried negotiating the offer at the new company? just because they offered a certain amount does not mean that is the maximum they would pay you. the maximum could be much higher.

No, I haven't tried to negotiate. I guess part of me is nervous that if I ask for more money, it will make me look bad. I know that probably sounds silly. I also get concerned that they'll increase their expectations significantly, and I'll feel a lot of pressure. I'm not afraid to work, so I may be sightly overanalyzing the whole situation.

If I were to ask for slightly more money, what is typically the best approach? Would it be rude to e-mail my HR contact? Should I handle this by phone?

Some general advice:

1. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. If you don't stand up for yourself and set expectations, they are more likely to walk all over you,

2. Asking for what you think is fair compensation is a basic right. If you are afraid to ask for that, that is a big problem. You need to learn how to do that. Read, find a Coach, mentor, or something. But do it. If you are afraid, try to get help in formulating what you want to say. Write it down. Then research verbally several times. Then ask for it, on the phone, or whatever. Often times, what matters is what words you use to ask. If you ask for help in that direction, some forum members will give you excellent advice.

3. I think your new job is paying you substantially less. Typically job change has hidden costs. Also, job change usually means that at least in the beginning you will be working harder. Also, you will have to prove yourself, and work in an unfamiliar place. For all of that, you need to be compensated.

When you counting every penny and every corner to justify whether your new potential job is paying you more, that means that your new job is greatly underpaying you.

Overtime, shift differential, etc, should end up paying you quite a bit more. You need to get paid more, like 5% more, on an equal-to-equal basis. Everything else is gravy.

4. You are planning for zero vacation. Working without vacation is counter-productive in the long term. Even planning for two weeks worth of vacation per year will provide you with a huge benefit in terms of increased feeling of happiness, and renewed energy for your job.

Do yourself a favor, and factor in a vacation. Either outright negotiate a vacation that is paid, or if not, ask for more money.

To summarize, uf your job is paying you $41K, I would shoot for the following:

- a job that pays you $42K when counting 40 hours per week normal hours, for 50 weeks a year. This comes to $21 / hour,
- everything else is gravy. Feel free to work shift differential, overtime, etc.

And lastly, don't say, "I don't make very much money". You make what you can and what market can bear to pay. You should be proud of what you make.

Good luck.

First decide if you want the new job or not....then figure out how to get more money immediately and 6 months and 1 year and 3 years down the road.

Two years ago I switched jobs and happily took a 10% pay cut. The other job had no room for advancement, had not given me a raise in 2 years, and didn't offer health insurance. I've been in my job now for 18 months and have received 2 promotions and 3 raises and am now 20% OVER where I was at my old job. Also, we're saving $300 per month just on health insurance premiums over what we were paying before the job change. I'll take a better opportunity over more money any day.