Rate Your Finance Titans/Guru's

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This might be a fruitless exercise and it's quite possible that only a few people on here could do this for more than a few(even if you can only do a couple still post), but my previous post on Dalio gave me this idea. I think if people actually took the time on this it's quite possible many of us might be able to see the work of people we haven't thought of following or maybe take a second look at people we've passed over.

I'm going to provide my list(I'll likely forget a bunch) and I'll add in a larger list to the quick summary since there are many people I haven't followed enough to comment. As more people get added I'll update the quick summary with the new names just in case that jogs anybody else.

They can be anybody that is involved in the financial arena and can be very public, very private, working, retired, or dead. It can focus on whatever group(s) you want to and exclude others if you worry about it getting too long, but they can be hedge fund managers, bankers, private equity guys, portfolio managers, quants, authors, commentators, journalists, radio/tv show hosts, etc. I'll leave it up to you, but for the time being I'm going to keep off economists for a few reasons:
1) There is limits to how useful they can be in areas of finance with really the only exception of global macro when there are other people in the other categories that espouse that economic work enough to skip that group
2) Probably a good idea to avoid this devolving into politics because someone gave Keynes a negative 20 out of 10.
3) Also in the interests of trying to keep the list from getting so long that people don't want to take the time.

Rate the ones you want to(not necessarily all of them you know) from 1 to 10 and you're rating essentially their ability to find financial value(whether that's in investment picks, personal finance, tax strategies, or whatever financial value that improves finances for people publicly or privately). So for the example of someone like Soros you're rating outside of their politics. Just how much of a good financial mind you think they are. Also if the person is a recluse guess if you do know who they are and the little public information on them.



Here's my own:

Warren Buffett 10
Charlie Munger 8
Benjamin Graham 10
David Dodd 5
James Simons 10
George Soros 8
Jim Rogers 5
Bill Gross 5
Muhamed El-Erian 4
Peter Lynch 7
Howard Marks 7
John Bogle 4
Carl Icahn 4
David Tepper 9
Paul Tudor Jones 7
Philip Fisher 7
Seth Klarman 8
Joel Greenblatt 7
Bruce Kovner 7
Kenneth Griffin 7
Philip Falcone 5
T Boone Pickens 4
Jim Chanos 10
John Hussman 7
Ray Dalio 4
John Paulson 2
Kyle Bass 10
David Einhorn 8
Daniel Loeb 7
Bill Ackman 4
Paul Singer 5
Whitney Tilson 2
Edward Thorp 10
Hugh Hendry 10
Stanley Druckenmiller 8
John Griffin 5
Peter Schiff 3
Steve Eisman 8
Michael Burry 9
Meredith Whitney 4
Gregg Lippmann 7
Michael Hasenstab 5
Max Otte 7
Michael Platt 7
David Nierenberg 5
Andrew Beal 10
Leon Cooperman 4
Laurence Fink 5
Henry Kravis 7
Michael Milken 7
Peter Thiel 8
John Arnold 9
J. Tomilson Hill 7
Art Cashin 4
John Doerr 7
Nassim Taleb 7
Paul Wilmott 7
Emanuel Derman 8
Jim Grant 7
Marc Faber 3
Jim Cramer 3
Dave Ramsey 1
Suze Orman 1
Ed Slott 6
Clark Howard 2
Robert Kiyosaki -10


So this is what I've got so far. I'll likely end up adding more as others post(and as I remember more). I'll add all of these and some others who I don't know much at all about, but are known in the quick summary.

So I guess we'll see if this is useful or a waste of time. Surprise me!



P.S. As far as I'm aware no such composite list by smart financial professionals/hobbyists like this exists anywhere on the internet which means that this could easily become a good instant resource for those that are interested in studying finance in a more in depth way.

Member Summary
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The bigger such a list, the lower value it has.

Already the list is so big, that it is of little value.

ChumChurum (Mar. 24, 2013 @ 3:31p) |

Hence the ratings!

dshibb (Mar. 24, 2013 @ 5:19p) |

I'm going to drop a power point presentation here that Jim Chanos recently made on China. I'm picking this one over a lo... (more)

dshibb (Apr. 18, 2013 @ 9:52p) |

Andrew Beal
Art Cashin
Barry Ritholtz
Benjamin Graham
Bill Ackman
Bill Bemstein
Bill Eckardt
Bill Fleckenstein
Bill Gross
Bill Nygren
Bruce Berkowitz
Bruce Kovner
Burton Malkiel
Carl Icahn
Charlie Munger
Chuck Akre
Chuck Royce
Clark Howard
Claude Shannon
Daniel Loeb
Dave Ramsey
David Dodd
David Dreman
David Einhorn
David Herro
David Nirenberg
David Tepper
Doris "Tanta" Dungey
Ed Slott
Edward Lampert
Edward Thorp
Emanuel Derman
Eric Mindich
George Soros
Gregg Lippmann
Henry Kravis
Howard Marks
Hugh Hendry
J. Tomilson Hill
James Simons
Jeremy Grantham
Jill Schlesinger
Jim Chanos
Jim Cramer
Jim Grant
Jim Rogers
Joel Greenblatt
John Arnold
John Bogle
John Burbank
John Doerr
John Griffin
John Hussman
John Kelly
John Paulson
Ken Heebner
Kenneth Griffin
Kyle Bass
Larry Swedroe
Laurence Fink
Leon Cooperman
Marc Faber
Max Otte
Mebane Faber
Meredith Whitney
Michael Burry
Michael Hasenstab
Michael Mauboussin
Michael Milken
Michael Platt
Michael Price
Michael Shedlock
MrMoneyMustache
Muhamed El-Erian
Nassim Taleb
Paul Singer
Paul Tudor Jones
Paul Wilmott
Peter Lynch
Peter Schiff
Peter Thiel
Philip Falcone
Philip Fisher
Ray Dalio
Rau Lucia
Richard Blum
Richard Dennis
Richard Perry
Rick Ferri
Robert J. Sanborn
Robert Kiyosaki
Seth Klarman
Stanley Druckenmiller
Steve Eisman
Steve Mandell
Steven Cohen
Suze Orman
T Boone Pickens
Warren Buffett
Whitney Tilson
Wilbur Ross

Feel free to just go ahead add to the list if you want.


----
2/18, 1 am - edit from Nantucketsunrise: I alphabetized the current list (via Word) to make it easier for people to avoid adding duplicate names to the Quick Summary

how come SIS is not on the list?

Any list that includes Suze and Ramsey -- while omitting SiS and DaveHanson -- is defective.

DiMAn0684 said:   how come SIS is not on the list?

Maybe it should be and I just wasn't thinking that way

BEEFjerKAY said:   Any list that includes Suze and Ramsey -- while omitting SiS and DaveHanson -- is defective.

Keep in mind that Suze and Ramsey got 1's and SiS would surely get higher.


Of course the obvious problem with including FWF members on here would be that once that door is open than people would start posting people they don't like and giving them 1's and then this would turn into a $hit show.

DiMAn0684 said:   how come SIS is not on the list?
Maybe he is....

Glitch99 said:   DiMAn0684 said:   how come SIS is not on the list?
Maybe he is....


We know SIS is a real estate mogul ... maybe's he's really Robert Kiyosaki

umcsom -1

I'm certainly not familiar enough with most of these to rate them, but I've found Googling your 9-10s to be inspirational. Thanks for the thread.

civ2k1 said:   Glitch99 said:   DiMAn0684 said:   how come SIS is not on the list?
Maybe he is....


We know SIS is a real estate mogul ... maybe's he's really Robert Kiyosaki

Insulting a FWF member is uncalled for.

xerty said:   I'm certainly not familiar enough with most of these to rate them, but I've found Googling your 9-10s to be inspirational. Thanks for the thread.

Thanks!

I guess the thought process is that there are hundreds of threads, blogs, articles, etc. all over the internet about recommended reading lists, but there is nothing out there that focuses on people that continue to write, talk about, etc. great financial work(outside of maybe Gurufocus which focuses purely on extremely large funds with good historical records and purely from the perspective of piggybacking their trades).

In my mind if we could really get a solid composite list out there I figured this could be the gift that keeps on giving. Hedge fund letters, interviews, past and future strategies, etc. of a group of pro's can be just as much if not more informative than a reading list. I've thought about sharing this for a while and I don't know why I've held off on it until now.


So I guess I'm asking(and this goes for you too) to share whatever you can. I realize that most people probably have been conditioned to read 20 books before finding 20 pro's to follow, but even if you can share 10 or 5(and maybe even some not listed above) it's better than nothing. I would prefer a thread of Buffett, Soros, Simons, Cramer, Ramsey, Orman repeated over and over again with different ratings than nothing at all. My weakest spot for myself is actually in volume of books because:
A) I don't usually have the attention span to want to read through 80% BS and rehashing to get to the 20% core that is actually useful
B) I tend to prefer audiobooks when I have the option

So definitely feel free to just post a dozen authors if you like as well.

David Herro 10
Bill Nygren 9
Robert J. Sanborn 9

Calculated Risk
Tanta
Peter Schiff

Gary Koldbaum ( www.garyk.com )

MrMoneyMustache, because his iconoclastic take and irreverent streak keep me tuned in so one day I, too, can flip the bird at society.

You kids get off my lawn, too, while I'm at it.

I'd put a number of those fellows above Dr. Hussman, if we're playing relative value now.

TravelerMSY said:   I'd put a number of those fellows above Dr. Hussman, if we're playing relative value now.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to start to discuss a few of these people.

My appreciation for Hussman is mostly in his work in standarizing aggregate corporate earnings into different baskets of relative strength. I think that concept was a very significant and rather brilliant addition into financial thought. It has a lot of practical use and definitely captured perfectly the mistake value investors were making pre 2008. Those few years prior had the odd circumstance where price was rising in a lot of areas and value investors saw increasingly better values in the marketplace. Why? Because earnings were rising even faster in a lot of areas. Of course the obvious thing in retrospect now that he brought that up(while not so obvious at the time) was that that a lot of that earnings growth was not sustainable. So he went about creating low, middle, and high earnings trend lines so that he could see when valuations were being driven by earnings that were either unrealistically low(temporary losses) or unrealistically high(peak euphoria driving down PE multiples).

I would probably agree that this brilliant insight and several other ones he's had could have been put in better hands than his own. I would also say he's way too much of a permabear, and a bit of a pussy when it comes taking even any unneeded risk outside of the moment when everybody else runs for the exits(which he then finds strength and goes long [mostly] unhedged which I'll admit is a bit admirable on his part to get a definite spine in those dark months). He is definitely the ultimate bear of my personal collection of people I actually appreciate and usually take his bear sentiments with a grain of salt outside using them to be a good test of my own bullish enthusiasm(when I have bullish enthusiasm).

Essentially how do rate someone who has given you some very useful tools for your toolbox, but at the same time hasn't done as well as he should have because he's too much of a pussy and a downer to really be a great success managing money?

john bogle 10

Milton Friedman 10
Paul Volcker 6.5
Alan Greenspan 1
Ben Bernanke 1
Tim Geithner 1
Paul Krugman -5

brettdoyle said:   Milton Friedman 10
Paul Volcker 6.5
Alan Greenspan 1
Ben Bernanke 1
Tim Geithner 1
Paul Krugman -5


Couldn't help yourself on the economists, eh?

I don't want to break my own rule, but if you want an interesting central bank chairman/governor to look at(if it was any member of a central bank I would say Hoenig is pretty interesting) take a look at Canada's central banker, Mark Carney. He may not be a Friedman, Schwartz, Meltzer, Hoenig, etc., but for someone who I think is from the roots of a Paul Volcker he's equal if not better on the issue of central bank policy itself(his other sentiments aside, which are actually not that bad at all(at least not Volcker rule bad)). My personal favorite central bank head in the world today at least(which might not be saying all that much).

I'll keep away from commenting negatively on any economists, central bankers, politicians, etc. for this thread.

Warren Buffet 10 all the way. Dave Ramsey 1. That is all.

Good idea, OP!

It's interesting to see all the names of these finance/money experts listed together like this.

===
By the way, I have alphabetized (by first name) the current list in the Quick Summary (using Word) to make it easier for people to avoid adding duplicate names there.

===
This is not at all a comment on the original poster (he's just giving the "lay of the land" as it stands) -

it's just an observation: this comprehensive roster of experts in this field is amazingly male-centric (not to mention that it mainly consists of white folks, mainly of American folks).

I mean, NASCAR has about the same gender proportion these days

I'm absolutely not meaning to start a discussion about this aspect of the list; just thought it was quite stark when looking at an overview of the main figures in this field/industry.

===
I'll daintily toddle off now and curl my blonde locks or bake some cupcakes or something.

NantucketSunrise said:   Good idea, OP!

It's interesting to see all the names of these finance/money experts listed together like this.

===
This is not at all a comment on the original poster (he's just giving the "lay of the land" as it stands) -

it's just an observation: this comprehensive roster of experts in this field is amazingly male-centric (not to mention that it mainly consists of white folks, mainly of American folks).

I mean, NASCAR has about the same gender proportion these days

I'm absolutely not meaning to start a discussion about this aspect of the list; just thought it was quite stark when looking at an overview of the main figures in this field/industry.

I'll daintily toddle off now and curl my blonde locks or bake some cupcakes or something.


On that note, I've Googled in the past to try to find new ones to read about and there is a thread out on the interwebs that focuses just on financial media personalities and there was a similar comment about them being almost entirely white males.

Personally, I would have appreciated a few more females up on that list, but honestly they're just not that many out there. Financial services is pretty male dominated for reasons I don't know why.

I will say that Maria Bartiromo is my favorite anchor on CNBC and definitely my favorite female anchor on any news network, but that's a slightly different thing since she's primarily there to ask questions not to provide answers.


And thanks for alphabetizing the names

dshibb said:   take a look at Canada's central banker, Mark Carney.

And he's headed for Threadneedle Street - the UK has placed a lot of hopes on the potential value of bringing him, a "foreigner", over to run their Bank.

NantucketSunrise said:   dshibb said:   take a look at Canada's central banker, Mark Carney.

And he's headed for Threadneedle Street - the UK has placed a lot of hopes on the potential value of bringing him, a "foreigner", over to run their Bank.


Very odd for any country to take a foreigner and one of the smartest 'poaching's I've ever seen by a country. And the UK is one of the worst shapes from a monetary policy perspective(I guess at least it's not BoJ, PBoC, or the ECB, right?). He's had it easy in Canada with one of the most stable monetary situations in the world so it's going to be interesting to see what he does.

All I can say is that I hope he doesn't pull a Greenspan coming in as the apple of my eye and leaving as the gum on my shoe(alright enough of that though).

If there is anyone I think that can handle the UK's precarious position it would be him.

dshibb said:   I will say that Maria Bartiromo is my favorite anchor on CNBC and definitely my favorite female anchor on any news network, but that's a slightly different thing since she's primarily there to ask questions not to provide answers.

Yeah, when I wrote my first post I was trying to think of women who are active in the finance world, and Bartiromo immediately came to mind. I must say that unfortunately I don't like her as a media personality/interviewer/article-writer, and I don't think she seems very smart (granted, I don't really follow her work, and try to keep my exposures to it brief),
but in her favor, at least she's a moderately well-known woman who's somewhere in the mix in the American finance world, even if she's a presenter rather than a mover/shaker/investor/speaker/academic/philosopher.

NantucketSunrise said:   dshibb said:   I will say that Maria Bartiromo is my favorite anchor on CNBC and definitely my favorite female anchor on any news network, but that's a slightly different thing since she's primarily there to ask questions not to provide answers.

Yeah, when I wrote my first post I was trying to think of women who are active in the finance world, and Bartiromo immediately came to mind. I must say that unfortunately I don't like her as a media personality/interviewer/article-writer, and I don't think she seems very smart (granted, I don't really follow her work, and try to keep my exposures to it brief),
but in her favor, at least she's a moderately well-known woman who's somewhere in the mix in the American finance world, even if she's a presenter rather than a mover/shaker/investor/speaker/academic/philosopher.


What I really appreciate about Bartiromo is that she always plays a solid Devil's advocate in a Tim Russert-esque way that is so rare these days among anchors. I always get the impression like there is never anything pulling at her to be nicer(or meaner) to the people she interviews whether that is agreeing with the person(which is usually the culprit for most interviewers) or intimidation from getting a star guest and worrying about ticking them off enough to never want to come back. I think she embodies a not too tough, but not too nice, but always fair type of persona on air. And that is a really rare thing in news these days.


And I think she's smart enough. She may occasionally come off as lacking in the common sense department, but watch her long enough and you realize when it comes to the book smarts of the financial industry she know's enough to be dangerous. On the flip side many people think Sorkin is a smart guy, but when you dive in you realize he's a bit of a financial idiot. I mean when his book first hit the shelves it had a rather embarrassing error right in the first few pages. He wrote about the treasury bond market tanking with low yields dropping bond prices at the end of 2008. News flash Andrew yields move inversely to price idiot. Record low yields mean that prices are sky high. And how did this guy got to be a financial journalist? I mean that is first week of finance 101 their Andrew. And now he's a co-anchor on CNBC.

dshibb said:   If there is anyone I think that can handle the UK's precarious position it would be him.

The other day he had to appear before a committee of Parliament, and they showed clips of the appearance on the evening news there -- he had to speak about and justify his new salary, housing allowance, and the fact that he wanted a contract for a certain number of years (other than they would normally have offered) because he didn't want to pull his daughter out of school during a Crucial stage of her education.

The mainstream media (main tv news broadcasts and national newspapers) has profiled him quite a bit, so he's already reasonably well-known there, even though he hasn't even started the job yet.

I dearly hope he will be able to do some good.

NantucketSunrise said:   dshibb said:   If there is anyone I think that can handle the UK's precarious position it would be him.

The other day he had to appear before a committee of Parliament, and they showed clips of the appearance on the evening news there -- he had to speak about and justify his new salary, housing allowance, and the fact that he wanted a contract for a certain number of years (other than they would normally have offered) because he didn't want to pull his daughter out of school during a Crucial stage of her education.

The mainstream media (main tv news broadcasts and national newspapers) has profiled him quite a bit, so he's already reasonably well-known there, even though he hasn't even started the job yet.

I dearly hope he will be able to do some good.


Are you from the UK? You talk like you are.

I would rate Orman and Ramsey about a 3. They are not bad for people who are just terrible with money. There should be a minus scale for out and out fraud like Robert Kiyosucki.

ZenNUTS said:   I would rate Orman and Ramsey about a 3. They are not bad for people who are just terrible with money. There should be a minus scale for out and out fraud like Robert Kiyosucki.

In a lot of ways I agree with your sentiments about their use for the financially illiterate. But that said for those that are financially literate they really shouldn't be listened to unless you want to waste time and become dumber hence the 1's.

I actually thought about putting a negative number for 'Kiyosucki', but I decided I against it. But in all honesty if anybody up there deserves a negative number it's him.

The more I watch macro economics and politics, the more respect I have for Soros. Figure out what the central bankers are going to have to do in the next 6 months and make $1B front running them in the FX markets.

Ramsey and Orman have little to offer us but for the majority of financial simpletons , they are helpful

I'd give Orman a 4-6 catering to this group and Ramsey maybe 3-4

As much as ppl love to hate on kiyosaki, myself included , ill admit you could have made a ton of money if you acted on his tips when they first came out - not years after he made them and kept repeating them

He was early to recommend RE and gold at the right times . But you had to be paying attention early

Dp

Milton Friedman 9
Ludwig Von Mises 10
Friedrich von Hayek 10
John Maynard Keynes 1
Ayn Rand 7
Mike Shedlock 9
Bill Fleckenstein 7
Warren Buffett 7
Jim Rodgers 8
Marc Faber 6
John Hussman 7
Jim Cramer 1

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Ramsey and Orman have little to offer us but for the majority of financial simpletons , they are helpful

I'd give Orman a 4-6 catering to this group and Ramsey maybe 3-4

As much as ppl love to hate on kiyosaki, myself included , ill admit you could have made a ton of money if you acted on his tips when they first came out - not years after he made them and kept repeating them

He was early to recommend RE and gold at the right times . But you had to be paying attention early
Are there any specifics on Kiyosaki's long term record(s)? Would he really be considered a titan/guru?

This is precisely why I mentioned David Herro, Bill Nygren, and Robert J. Sanborn. The common thread: they all work (or worked) for Harris Associates. But they are true value investors: patient, very willing to explain what value they see, and why. Their quarterly commentary is easily available online:
http://www.oakmark.com/fundlit/fund_rpts/fund_rpts.asp?selected=...

Some additional recent commentary is captured here.
http://www.oakmark.com/news/news.asp
I found some of it archived over on the right side on one of their pages, but don't see an official repository.

Marc

Rathipon said:   
John Maynard Keynes 1


Firstly, I think it's dumb that this is turning into a pissing contest about economists. Especially since everyone is clearly rating them on agreement/disagreement, rather than having an appreciation for their relative talents.

But giving Keynes a 1 really tweaks me in this thread. He is well known as having been a successful fatwalleteer, dying with about half a million pounds to his name. That's the equivalent of well over $10 million today. He did this despite a lifestyle of H&B (alleged last words: "I should have drank more champagne"), lots of charitable donations, and amassing a collection of fine art and original Isaac Newton papers.

He also went through an interesting transition as an investor. He started out trying to do macro trades, betting on business cycles and policy responses. Soros style if you will. Later in his career he switched to value investing, trying to identify individually undervalued companies at which he was far more successful. Buffett style so to speak.

To rate Keynes a 1 as a financial guru is just ignorant.

First, Ray Lucia is my addition to the list -- level 7. His "Buckets of Money" approach makes sense to me. Yes, he got dinged by the SEC, but the logic of his plan is very worthwhile at a conceptual level. It really helped me wrap my head around how retirement might happen.

Kiosacki is a special case. I read his first book and got inspired. That's worth something. As far as learning anything meaningful, he falls short.

Orman and Ramsey are also special cases. I can't even stand to listen to them. Suze is so rude to her viewers / callers. No one deserves that level of disrespect, not even Bill Reilly. Ramsey might have his heart in the right place, but his math is all screwed up. Yes, for some who are unwilling to or unable to dive in to the math, he provides some guidance. Some guidance might be better than none. For his average listener, killing debt is a really good thing. For the FWF crowd, we see debt quite differently -- we see it as just another tool for making money. Many of his listeners wouldn't be able to control that.

What is the financial literacy score of the average FW reader? A ton higher than the average American. Who you get benefit from has a lot to do with your literacy level. My first grade teacher was awesome at first grade, but wouldn't have been a rock star teaching calculus. I think Suze, Kiyosacki and Ramsey have a part to play in those who would otherwise miss preschool. After that, they damage people's education because some intermediate financial IQ people mistake them for calc professors.

DB

Oh yeah, please add Elizabeth Warren to the list. Your/her politics aside, she's come up with some fascinating stuff on the incredible difficulties that lower income folks wrestle with.

DB

Skipping 57 Messages...
I'm going to drop a power point presentation here that Jim Chanos recently made on China. I'm picking this one over a lot of his other interviews because this thing actually has some more detailed info in here(albeit in nondescript format because it's a power point) than he usually ends up giving in his major interviews.

I'm also throwing this out there because I've seen a few people looking at things like steel as an investment play and they don't realize that a play on steel really requires about 80% of your attention on China property markets and 20% of your attention on the companies themselves because that is where most of the world's steel is bought(for now).

Chanos Wine Country Powerpoint

I'll include a recent interview as well: Chanos Interview



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