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So what is to stop someone from taking out one of these loans and just not paying it back?

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I personally think the government should stay out of it. Like my mom always bad mouthing casinos saying they make people... (more)

mjoply (Mar. 29, 2013 @ 12:53p) |

Tell them you don't have the payment in full today so that's simply impossible .

Tell them you'll consider their offer t... (more)

SUCKISSTAPLES (Mar. 29, 2013 @ 1:26p) |

I think the government should require a "truth in lending" much like a mortgage.

Al3xK (Mar. 29, 2013 @ 9:13p) |

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Article said: Superintendent of Financial Services Benjamin M. Lawsky said, ďAll debt collectors in New York should know that it is illegal to try to collect payday loan debts. We will aggressively enforce the law to protect all New Yorkers and especially low income individuals who are all too often abused by unscrupulous lenders and debt collectors
The problem is a debt collectors don't bother to follow the laws anyway (with no real consequence), and many of them arent based in New York but do online lending, etc. I don't see how then this new law will effect anything.

Tall about misleading - this has nothing to do with payday loans, it's about any loan that violates the state's ursery laws. Payday loans are fine and perfectly collectable, as long as they have terms that comply with state law.

Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.

Squeezer99 said:   Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.
If you can't get a quick loan to cover cash flow gaps, there's more incentive to sign up for welfare benefits. NY hopes to add (as in, they WANT more) 500,000 people to the welfare rolls this year - the dependency buys more votes.

Another nanny state law. I just don't see the abuse here as long as the terms are disclosed prior to signing for the loans. If people need money right away they are left w/pawning their possessions, stealing, going hungry or being late on the rents and other debts.

Squeezer99 said:   Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.Yeah. People need and want to be raped with crazy-high fees and interest rates just like they need and want rent-to-own scams, we-tote-the-note car lots and MLM companies. Just like they need and want all the other bright lights in the crazy galaxy of schemes designed to separate the less-intelligent from their money.

People need and want payday loans? That's just stupid.

Back to the subject at hand; what will prolly keep this from getting exploited - especially in New York - is Vinny the Kneecapper. Just sayin'....

Glitch99 said:   Tall about misleading - this has nothing to do with payday loans, it's about any loan that violates the state's ursery laws. Payday loans are fine and perfectly collectable, as long as they have terms that comply with state law.

Technically the story is misleading but the reality is that payday loans are likely the most common violation of NY usury laws. I doubt the payday loan business model could be profitable at 25%, loan sizes are to small and clients to unreliable to make a profit. So I don't think it is that much a stretch to say that pay day loans aren't the target of the statement.

kenblakely said:   
People need and want payday loans? That's just stupid.

Back to the subject at hand; what will prolly keep this from getting exploited - especially in New York - is Vinny the Kneecapper. Just sayin'....


If they didn't want or need this service then they wouldn't be using it and the businesses wouldn't exist.

Payday loans are a lender of last resort for many living in poverty. Of course the interest rate is crazy but some people have no other choice.

kenblakely said:   Squeezer99 said:   Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.Yeah. People need and want to be raped with crazy-high fees and interest rates just like they need and want rent-to-own scams, we-tote-the-note car lots and MLM companies. Just like they need and want all the other bright lights in the crazy galaxy of schemes designed to separate the less-intelligent from their money.
.
if you want me to give you my money (or my washing machine, or my car) and assume the risk of you never paying me back, then I should be able to charge whatever makes that risk worth my while. And you should have the option to do business with me or not. I get to decide if its a good deal, you get to decide if its a good deal, and it's no one else's business what anyone else may think.

I think these payday loan places take advantage of the dumb and desperate. I realize I am being a total hypocrite by agreeing with payday loans being illegal but disagreeing with H&B being illegal.

WesternSky, an Indian loan company advertises high interest loans on televison in New York State.

If I take out a 10 thousand dollar loan with them, is New York telling me I don't have to pay it back?

"No matter what method is used to make the loan, usurious and illegal payday loans are not valid debts and cannot lawfully be collected on. "

Meanwhile, if you take out a loan from WesternSky you agree to be bound by "the exclusive laws and jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, Cheyenne River Indian Reservation. All borrowers must consent to be bound to the jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Court, and further agree that no other state or federal law or regulation shall apply to this Loan Agreement, its enforcement or interpretation."

Neidman said:   WesternSky, an Indian loan company advertises high interest loans on televison in New York State.

If I take out a 10 thousand dollar loan with them, is New York telling me I don't have to pay it back?

"No matter what method is used to make the loan, usurious and illegal payday loans are not valid debts and cannot lawfully be collected on. "

Meanwhile, if you take out a loan from WesternSky you agree to be bound by "the exclusive laws and jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, Cheyenne River Indian Reservation. All borrowers must consent to be bound to the jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Court, and further agree that no other state or federal law or regulation shall apply to this Loan Agreement, its enforcement or interpretation."
they aren't saying you don't have to pay them back, they're saying debt collectors can't enforce illegal terms. I'd suspect virtually any court would just nix the illegal parts, and leave the principle as still being due....

I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?

Glitch99 said:   I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?It's funny you asked:

FTC: FTC Charges That Payday Lender Illegally Sued Debt-Burdened Consumers in South Dakota Tribal Court Without Jurisdiction
FTC said: When customers fall behind in their payments, Payday Financial, LLC improperly files suits against them in the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Court, attempting to obtain a tribal court order to garnish their wages, the amended complaint alleges. The tribal court does not have jurisdiction over claims against people who do not belong to the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe and who do not reside on the reservation or elsewhere in South Dakota.

Glitch99 said:   Neidman said:   WesternSky, an Indian loan company advertises high interest loans on televison in New York State.

If I take out a 10 thousand dollar loan with them, is New York telling me I don't have to pay it back?

"No matter what method is used to make the loan, usurious and illegal payday loans are not valid debts and cannot lawfully be collected on. "

Meanwhile, if you take out a loan from WesternSky you agree to be bound by "the exclusive laws and jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, Cheyenne River Indian Reservation. All borrowers must consent to be bound to the jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Court, and further agree that no other state or federal law or regulation shall apply to this Loan Agreement, its enforcement or interpretation."
they aren't saying you don't have to pay them back, they're saying debt collectors can't enforce illegal terms. I'd suspect virtually any court would just nix the illegal parts, and leave the principle as still being due....

I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?


You ever messed with the Indian reservations? They don't mess around. There are numerous stories around here concerning people around here hitting progressive jackpots at the Indian casinos and the nation bullies them in the backroom into accepting a lesser amount because the "machine malfunctioned."

They'll be sure you pay that loan back.

hillwood24 said:   Glitch99 said:   Neidman said:   WesternSky, an Indian loan company advertises high interest loans on televison in New York State.

If I take out a 10 thousand dollar loan with them, is New York telling me I don't have to pay it back?

"No matter what method is used to make the loan, usurious and illegal payday loans are not valid debts and cannot lawfully be collected on. "

Meanwhile, if you take out a loan from WesternSky you agree to be bound by "the exclusive laws and jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, Cheyenne River Indian Reservation. All borrowers must consent to be bound to the jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Court, and further agree that no other state or federal law or regulation shall apply to this Loan Agreement, its enforcement or interpretation."
they aren't saying you don't have to pay them back, they're saying debt collectors can't enforce illegal terms. I'd suspect virtually any court would just nix the illegal parts, and leave the principle as still being due....

I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?


You ever messed with the Indian reservations? They don't mess around. There are numerous stories around here concerning people around here hitting progressive jackpots at the Indian casinos and the nation bullies them in the backroom into accepting a lesser amount because the "machine malfunctioned."

They'll be sure you pay that loan back.
obviously you wouldn't be so stupid to go to the Reservation in person....

Glitch99 said:   Neidman said:   WesternSky, an Indian loan company advertises high interest loans on televison in New York State.

If I take out a 10 thousand dollar loan with them, is New York telling me I don't have to pay it back?

"No matter what method is used to make the loan, usurious and illegal payday loans are not valid debts and cannot lawfully be collected on. "

Meanwhile, if you take out a loan from WesternSky you agree to be bound by "the exclusive laws and jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, Cheyenne River Indian Reservation. All borrowers must consent to be bound to the jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Court, and further agree that no other state or federal law or regulation shall apply to this Loan Agreement, its enforcement or interpretation."
they aren't saying you don't have to pay them back, they're saying debt collectors can't enforce illegal terms. I'd suspect virtually any court would just nix the illegal parts, and leave the principle as still being due....

I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?

I've heard these loans aren't enforceable if you never repay them, assuming you stay off the Rez

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Glitch99 said:   Neidman said:   WesternSky, an Indian loan company advertises high interest loans on televison in New York State.

If I take out a 10 thousand dollar loan with them, is New York telling me I don't have to pay it back?

"No matter what method is used to make the loan, usurious and illegal payday loans are not valid debts and cannot lawfully be collected on. "

Meanwhile, if you take out a loan from WesternSky you agree to be bound by "the exclusive laws and jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe, Cheyenne River Indian Reservation. All borrowers must consent to be bound to the jurisdiction of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribal Court, and further agree that no other state or federal law or regulation shall apply to this Loan Agreement, its enforcement or interpretation."
they aren't saying you don't have to pay them back, they're saying debt collectors can't enforce illegal terms. I'd suspect virtually any court would just nix the illegal parts, and leave the principle as still being due....

I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?

I've heard these loans aren't enforceable if you never repay them, assuming you stay off the Rez

So who wants to give it a whirl? Indian loan-a-rama? I would, but there's too great of odds I'll have to drive through a Res; not the Cheyenne one, but one that probably would honor extradition.

Even though they're unenforceable , they'll still hurt your credit and I'm sure your good credit is worth more than $2500-10k

Seems the same outfit runs all these Native American lenders so I don't know how many you can get "orama style "

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Even though they're unenforceable , they'll still hurt your credit and I'm sure your good credit is worth more than $2500-10k
"

If the loan is unenforceable, how can it be reportable? How do you validate a debt that no US court would declare valid?

So the americans rape Indians of their Land..... now Indians rape poor Americans of their cash (or lack thereof) ..... Now US Attorneys/Govt. trying to rape Indians of their easy cash.

Nothing changes.

I know people who use these loans and they are just BAD BAD BAD. should be outlawed completely and there should never be anything higher than 25% apr

If they don't break your knee caps when you are late on a payment, these loans may be bad, but better than the alternative.

To those who decry this as nanny-state-ism, these are the sort of protections the government should be offering. There's nothing reasonable about this kind of loan; it's purely predatory. You say, "Oh, well the market will bear it, why not?" Well, why have anti-fraud laws? If you don't do your due diligence, maybe you deserve to be scammed? No, it's not acceptable, regardless. (I'm not saying payday loans are fraud, per-se, but they're not far off.) There's nothing wrong with adding reasonable restrictions to protect those too stupid (or whatever euphemism you wish) to protect themselves.

Of course, I'd feel better if the same governments didn't sponsor the lottery, which is also predatory on the poor & uninformed.

new york is awesome, yaaaa!!!

GodelianKnot said:   .....Of course, I'd feel better if the same governments didn't sponsor the lottery, which is also predatory on the poor & uninformed.Amen.

Perhaps New York intends to muscle into the the payday loan business to increase New York's City's revenue. In Los Angeles, if you are delinquent on your property tax, and need a property tax 5 payment installment plan, the City's assessor's office charges:

A $75 non-refundable application fee + the interest rate for the installment plan is 1.5% per month (18% annual interest). Only taxpayers who can can pay a minimum payment of 20% of the total tax amount can qualify for the Los Angeles Assessor's plan, others who can't come up with the initial 20% installment don't qualify for the payment plan. If during the course of an installment plan the current taxes are not paid by April 10, the LA County declares your plan is in default. Banks who are charging comparable interest rates are getting skewered by the press as predatory, yet the news media doesn't utter a word about the City of Los Angeles's exorbitant interest rates and the effect on the poor.

bighitter said:   Perhaps New York intends to muscle into the the payday loan business to increase New York's City's revenue. In Los Angeles, if you are delinquent on your property tax, and need a property tax 5 payment installment plan, the City's assessor's office charges:

A $75 non-refundable application fee + the interest rate for the installment plan is 1.5% per month (18% annual interest). Only taxpayers who can can pay a minimum payment of 20% of the total tax amount can qualify for the Los Angeles Assessor's plan, others who can't come up with the initial 20% installment don't qualify for the payment plan. If during the course of an installment plan the current taxes are not paid by April 10, the LA County declares your plan is in default. Banks who are charging comparable interest rates are getting skewered by the press as predatory, yet the news media doesn't utter a word about the City of Los Angeles's exorbitant interest rates and the effect on the poor.


Government doesn't like to be accountable to Government's own rules. It was a long bloody battle just to get the IRS to charge the same amount of interest for back taxes that the IRS itself must pay on overcharged balances.

ProfessorKev said:   there should never be anything higher than 25% apr Even on a 1-week loan? How are you going to make up your administrative costs for handling/processing that loan? Most of these %3,427 APR loans are really $25 fee for a week type deals.

kenblakely said:   Squeezer99 said:   Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.Yeah. People need and want to be raped with crazy-high fees and interest rates just like they need and want rent-to-own scams, we-tote-the-note car lots and MLM companies. Just like they need and want all the other bright lights in the crazy galaxy of schemes designed to separate the less-intelligent from their money.

People need and want payday loans? That's just stupid.

Back to the subject at hand; what will prolly keep this from getting exploited - especially in New York - is Vinny the Kneecapper. Just sayin'....
I can't tell if you're being ironical. I was going to reply (with Vinny the Kneecapper verbatim no less) that nanny state can stupidly make this illegal and they will just go to the black market to get their fix for 10x worse terms.

I don't get it...you deride him for saying people don't "need" this implying this needs to be illegal...only to admit it won't stop people from doing it. You trollin?

JohnGalt69 said:   ProfessorKev said:   there should never be anything higher than 25% apr Even on a 1-week loan? How are you going to make up your administrative costs for handling/processing that loan? Most of these %3,427 APR loans are really $25 fee for a week type deals.You ask the wrong question. The appropriate question as a reply is "why not 24%?" Or 23, 22, 21...

jkimcpa said:   JohnGalt69 said:   ProfessorKev said:   there should never be anything higher than 25% apr Even on a 1-week loan? How are you going to make up your administrative costs for handling/processing that loan? Most of these %3,427 APR loans are really $25 fee for a week type deals.You ask the wrong question. The appropriate question as a reply is "why not 24%?" Or 23, 22, 21...
The appropriate question is why is this even expressed as a percentage in the first place, when it's a fixed flat fee for issuing the loan not interest based on the loan balance?

Glitch99 said:   jkimcpa said:   JohnGalt69 said:   ProfessorKev said:   there should never be anything higher than 25% apr Even on a 1-week loan? How are you going to make up your administrative costs for handling/processing that loan? Most of these %3,427 APR loans are really $25 fee for a week type deals.You ask the wrong question. The appropriate question as a reply is "why not 24%?" Or 23, 22, 21...
The appropriate question is why is this even expressed as a percentage in the first place, when it's a fixed flat fee for issuing the loan not interest based on the loan balance?
Too much logic, not enough troll. When someone says something stupid, you're best to reply back with an response that equals it. Inserting facts and logic to the debate just makes you a fool.

Glitch99 said:   jkimcpa said:   JohnGalt69 said:   ProfessorKev said:   there should never be anything higher than 25% apr Even on a 1-week loan? How are you going to make up your administrative costs for handling/processing that loan? Most of these %3,427 APR loans are really $25 fee for a week type deals.You ask the wrong question. The appropriate question as a reply is "why not 24%?" Or 23, 22, 21...
The appropriate question is why is this even expressed as a percentage in the first place, when it's a fixed flat fee for issuing the loan not interest based on the loan balance?

It's expressed as an apr bc the govt has required they do so. Also bc the loan can last a week or 5 years , Its good for the customer to know the apr

Glitch99 said:   SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Even though they're unenforceable , they'll still hurt your credit and I'm sure your good credit is worth more than $2500-10k
"

If the loan is unenforceable, how can it be reportable? How do you validate a debt that no US court would declare valid?

Debt collectors routinely place debts on credit reports that they could never collect via prevailing in court (and the creditor could prevail if the borrower foolishlly entered the Rez)

Doing some googling tells me western sky sells the servicing of most of these loans to our friends at cash call , which is a licensed collector in most states and is an expert at collecting from deadbeats

IMO it's never a good idea to default on loans targeting deadbeats bc they have the most sophisticated and aggressive collection tactics. It's easier to default in a $50k Bofa credit card who is likely to write off the debt than a $500 capital one credit card , who will almost certainly sue you

ProfessorKev said:   I know people who use these loans and they are just BAD BAD BAD. should be outlawed completely and there should never be anything higher than 25% apr

Go lend a few thousand dollars on Prosper and come back in a year and tell us how great your 25% cap is.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Glitch99 said:   jkimcpa said:   JohnGalt69 said:   ProfessorKev said:   there should never be anything higher than 25% apr Even on a 1-week loan? How are you going to make up your administrative costs for handling/processing that loan? Most of these %3,427 APR loans are really $25 fee for a week type deals.You ask the wrong question. The appropriate question as a reply is "why not 24%?" Or 23, 22, 21...
The appropriate question is why is this even expressed as a percentage in the first place, when it's a fixed flat fee for issuing the loan not interest based on the loan balance?

It's expressed as an apr bc the govt has required they do so. Also bc the loan can last a week or 5 years , Its good for the customer to know the apr

Just because the government requires it doesnt make the number any more meaningful...

If the so-called "apr" varies wildly based solely on the length of the loan, it's flat out misleading - in fact, I'd hold that such a number misleads those poor stupid people we are trying to protect, by teaching them it's better to just pay the minimum and take as long as possible to repay loans because that lowers the apr and makes the loan cheaper...

Glitch99 said:   The appropriate question is why is this even expressed as a percentage in the first place, when it's a fixed flat fee for issuing the loan not interest based on the loan balance?

Is it a fixed flat fee? From what I understand, it's a "flat" fee per $100 loaned (or whatever increments). That makes it effectively interest, not a fee anymore. I'd agree a reasonable ~$25 fee per loan with an additional 15% APR is somewhat different. But that's not generally what happens, and I'd rather restrict the whole practice than give them leeway to stretch those rules in "creative" ways to take more advantage of people.

brettdoyle said:   kenblakely said:   People need and want payday loans? That's just stupid.

Back to the subject at hand; what will prolly keep this from getting exploited - especially in New York - is Vinny the Kneecapper. Just sayin'....

If they didn't want or need this service then they wouldn't be using it and the businesses wouldn't exist.

Based on the people who are getting these loans (my uncle ran a liquor store and would cash paychecks on Friday evening after the banks were closed, plus a lot of my co-workers were minimum wage hourly staff at a previous job), I suspect most of them don't need the loans. They want it. They're people who deposit their paycheck (or get a payday loan), then buy whatever they want until the ATM tells them they have no more money, then try to scrape by the next few days until their next paycheck arrives.

That's why they're so desperate for the money a few days early. I mean over a year they make a set amount of money. Whether they get that money on Friday night or the following Monday really doesn't matter - it's the same amount of money over the year. Getting the money a few days earlier doesn't increase how much you make for the year (if anything it decreases it because of the high interest you pay). But because of poor money management skills those 3 days make a big enough difference for them to seek out these payday loans.

The correct solution would seem to be to educate these people so that they know how to manage their money, balance their checkbook, plan a budget, etc. But I suspect many of them don't care or consider that too much work. I actually did try to teach some of my co-workers these skills. One guy picked it up pretty quickly, but the rest weren't interested. Still, I think the best way to reduce this problem would be to add a few weeks of personal finance management as a required course in high school.

Payday loans are a lender of last resort for many living in poverty. Of course the interest rate is crazy but some people have no other choice.
Phrasing it like that blurs the line between cause and effect IMHO. In most cases, payday loans are a lender of last resort to people who don't know how to or don't want to manage their money. Not knowing how to or refusing to manage your money is what results in poverty. Not knowing how to or refusing to manage your money is also what results in delinquency on loan payments, which is what causes high interest rates on loans. So in most cases both the poverty and high interest rates actually have the same root cause.

Unfortunately, some people mix up cause and effect and pass laws which are designed as if the loans were the cause of the poverty. It assumes a bad guy / good guy relationship, when in fact both guys' behaviors are being shaped by the same root cause. Address the root cause (educate people when they're younger and stress the importance of learning how to manage your finances), and the problem will lessen.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Glitch99 said:   I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?
I've heard these loans aren't enforceable if you never repay them, assuming you stay off the Rez

I've seen a similar thing among foreigners studying in the U.S. on an educational visa. They'll rack up a ton of credit card debt (getting a credit card w/o a credit history is easy if you're in college). They'll make the minimum payments while they're enrolled in school. Once they graduate, they simply go back home without paying off the card. They never plan to visit the U.S. again so there's little to no consequence to them.

OTOH credit card companies still offer easy credit cards to students, so the problem can't be that widespread.

Glitch99 said:   
I've wondered about the WesternSky loans, too - if their authority is from the Indian reservation, wouldn't they have to collect from you via the Reservation legal system, meaning there can be no repercussions to not repaying them unless you actually set foot on the Reservation?


Soaring Eagle Casino is legally reservation land, but it doesn't stop the Isabella County Persecuting Attorney from charging you with theft if you see a slot machine with $20 credit on it and play the machine.

Skipping 13 Messages...
dshibb said:   I know it's a f&cked up thought, but just humor me here...

Do you think there is an interest rate, cost, or penalty that is high enough that it's very presence get's an idiot payday borrower to realize how much they're giving up by doing this and maybe changes their behavior on that account?

Do you think that the egregiousness of the payday loan market might play a role in teaching people about finances through sheer pain so that positive behavioral change come later?


I think the government should require a "truth in lending" much like a mortgage.



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