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Solandri said:   The correct solution would seem to be to educate these people so that they know how to manage their money, balance their checkbook, plan a budget, etc. But I suspect many of them don't care or consider that too much work. I actually did try to teach some of my co-workers these skills. One guy picked it up pretty quickly, but the rest weren't interested. Still, I think the best way to reduce this problem would be to add a few weeks of personal finance management as a required course in high school.

Playing Devil's Advocate...who would teach it?!?

Going on the assumption that 90% of Americans are blissfully clueless in regards to financial planning matters...why would you assume the average teacher somehow breaks this mold? In fact, my experience is that the more book educated and securely salaried a person is, the more likely they are to be out of touch with their income vs debt levels, as they can easily float their poor financial habits with revolving credit.

My friend paid back a payday loan. I suggested he did not. I posted in another forum for him. The interesting thing is CashCall based in CA immediately acquired the loan.

http://www.debtconsolidationcare.com/Payday-loan-consolidation-and-help/WesternskyCashcall-Virginia.html

My understanding is that New York's law isn't terribly unusual. Thirteen states forbid payday loans altogether (including New York). Others apply their usury laws on the interest (read: fees). In the states that ban the practice outright, the internet and out-of-state payday loan outfits can only legally collect their principal, not their fees (though, of course, this is not disclosed to customers).

Also, looking at their "fees" as interest is wholly appropriate. Whether you borrow $500 on a credit card or borrow it from Western Skies hardly matters, but the cost to borrow that money over whatever period of time you borrow it can only be reasonably compared by using APR. The reason the payday loan places had to be required, by the government, to disclose their APRs was because those numbers were outrageous (and, let's be honest, usurious).

NPR (either through Marketplace or Planet Money, I forget) did an excellent story on the B&M payday loan outfits about four years ago that revealed the reason most of them set up shop right across the street from one another: their most common customers are people trying to pay off another payday loan somewhere else. They prey on the poor, the unbanked, and the desperate.

In a sense, Western Skies is particularly egregious, because their television ads know no state borders or boundaries, nor do their TV ads disclose that their operation may be illegal in your state. They're using the cover of operating out of tribal land to attempt to circumvent states' laws against payday loans and/or usury.

But for a savvy yet credit challenged consumer this can be a great opportunity

All those people who post here who have bad credit and asking where to get $5-10k should try these places . Armed with the understanding they aren't going to need to actually pay those interest rates , perhaps it makes for a hot deal ?

Sure they'll get negative credit reporting for not paying the fees , but if their credit sucks already its not that big a deal

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   But for a savvy yet credit challenged consumer this can be a great opportunity

All those people who post here who have bad credit and asking where to get $5-10k should try these places . Armed with the understanding they aren't going to need to actually pay those interest rates , perhaps it makes for a hot deal ?

Sure they'll get negative credit reporting for not paying the fees , but if their credit sucks already its not that big a deal
If you're in Atlanta or Athens, you can even sic the cops on Western Skies (or Cash Call, or whomever).

It's a felony to issue payday loans in Georgia.

Glitch99 said:   if you want me to give you my money (or my washing machine, or my car) and assume the risk of you never paying me back, then I should be able to charge whatever makes that risk worth my while. And you should have the option to do business with me or not. I get to decide if its a good deal, you get to decide if its a good deal, and it's no one else's business what anyone else may think.
No matter what the consequences on the rest of society? People aren't that rational, especially when it comes to money, and their financial stupidity has caused a lot of trouble for the economy. I'm referring mostly to our large investment organizations.

Anyone know about Indian Entity installment loans? I have one (principal balance $1250) with Plain Green LLC and before I got more than 2 months in I had to close the bank account that my payment was coming from. As I closed the account due to fraud I am hesitant to give them info on any new account. I received a settlement offer from Plain Green for the principal amount of the loan but they want payment in full today, which I can't do. As it is not technically a Payday loan but an "installment" loan, I can't find out what my rights are in regards to settling this. They claim to be legal and are licensed by their tribe, but I can't find any additional info. Thanks in advance for any help with this, and yes I know that this was an ill-advised action. I am now close to being back on track financially but want to get this issue taken care of once and for all.

Glitch99 said:   kenblakely said:   Squeezer99 said:   Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.Yeah. People need and want to be raped with crazy-high fees and interest rates just like they need and want rent-to-own scams, we-tote-the-note car lots and MLM companies. Just like they need and want all the other bright lights in the crazy galaxy of schemes designed to separate the less-intelligent from their money.
.
if you want me to give you my money (or my washing machine, or my car) and assume the risk of you never paying me back, then I should be able to charge whatever makes that risk worth my while. And you should have the option to do business with me or not. I get to decide if its a good deal, you get to decide if its a good deal, and it's no one else's business what anyone else may think.


Do you think there should be no obligation by the govt to protect the stupid/desperate?

Al3xK said:   Glitch99 said:   kenblakely said:   Squeezer99 said:   Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.Yeah. People need and want to be raped with crazy-high fees and interest rates just like they need and want rent-to-own scams, we-tote-the-note car lots and MLM companies. Just like they need and want all the other bright lights in the crazy galaxy of schemes designed to separate the less-intelligent from their money.
.
if you want me to give you my money (or my washing machine, or my car) and assume the risk of you never paying me back, then I should be able to charge whatever makes that risk worth my while. And you should have the option to do business with me or not. I get to decide if its a good deal, you get to decide if its a good deal, and it's no one else's business what anyone else may think.


Do you think there should be no obligation by the govt to protect the stupid/desperate?


To some extent maybe. But if you think that the government can rid the world of all the things that the stupid and the desperate can make mistakes on you're very mistaken my friend.

Look I would endorse shutting down these outfits tomorrow if a person could produce credible research that all of the people using them would suddenly not engage in other egregiously stupid things with their money. Something tells me that their situation wont improve at all.

You've got to understand the power of incentives. The goal of these financially stupid people is money as soon as possible regardless of the consequences. They are going to seek that out in every way possible including going to the black market. Or maybe they'll pawn and buy back their own stuff or whatever.

I think there is a certain degree of you can't just waive a magic wand and fix people by removing one type of candy from the shelves no matter how much you want that option to work. In reality it's actually going to require the painstaking work of trying to convince these people that they shouldn't behave this way(through education or whatever). And some people might just be beyond saving.


I don't know. I don't have all the answers on this one and you don't either. But maybe before you go around banning all of the things that people can make mistakes with maybe you should intimately understand A) the hidden repercussions of doing so(like those idiots moving to something worse) and B) The incentives and goals those idiots operate off of.

I know it's a f&cked up thought, but just humor me here...

Do you think there is an interest rate, cost, or penalty that is high enough that it's very presence get's an idiot payday borrower to realize how much they're giving up by doing this and maybe changes their behavior on that account?

Do you think that the egregiousness of the payday loan market might play a role in teaching people about finances through sheer pain so that positive behavioral change come later?

Al3xK said:   Glitch99 said:   kenblakely said:   Squeezer99 said:   Typical Cuomo. Lets get rid of a service that people need and want, so that another segment of people can feel better.Yeah. People need and want to be raped with crazy-high fees and interest rates just like they need and want rent-to-own scams, we-tote-the-note car lots and MLM companies. Just like they need and want all the other bright lights in the crazy galaxy of schemes designed to separate the less-intelligent from their money.
.
if you want me to give you my money (or my washing machine, or my car) and assume the risk of you never paying me back, then I should be able to charge whatever makes that risk worth my while. And you should have the option to do business with me or not. I get to decide if its a good deal, you get to decide if its a good deal, and it's no one else's business what anyone else may think.


Do you think there should be no obligation by the govt to protect the stupid/desperate?


I personally think the government should stay out of it. Like my mom always bad mouthing casinos saying they make people lose money, so she voted against adding slot machines in Maryland. Guess who always goes to the casinos. These types of services clearly spell out all fees and interest rates and people do not care. If they are stupid enough to take a $500 loan at %300 and take three years to pay it off, let them. The government shouldn't have to babysit everyone to make sure they aren't overpaying. I know not everyone grows up in the same economic status and that some people may never have more than a few hundred to their name. However, any person with a brain can understand that you don't borrow money to pay back 10 times as much by the time it is finished.

A few of my cousins and aunts got involved in something called Zurvita. You pay like $400 to work for them and sell some stupid rubbish. I tried multiple time to tell them it's a scam and you should never pay anyone to work for them, and they didn't lesson. Needless to say, they didn't sell much of anything and were out about $800 when it was all said and done. Even when people are warned, they do not listen.

SanFranDreamer said:   Anyone know about Indian Entity installment loans? I have one (principal balance $1250) with Plain Green LLC and before I got more than 2 months in I had to close the bank account that my payment was coming from. As I closed the account due to fraud I am hesitant to give them info on any new account. I received a settlement offer from Plain Green for the principal amount of the loan but they want payment in full today, which I can't do. As it is not technically a Payday loan but an "installment" loan, I can't find out what my rights are in regards to settling this. They claim to be legal and are licensed by their tribe, but I can't find any additional info. Thanks in advance for any help with this, and yes I know that this was an ill-advised action. I am now close to being back on track financially but want to get this issue taken care of once and for all.
Tell them you don't have the payment in full today so that's simply impossible .

Tell them you'll consider their offer to pay back just the principal , after you receive their written agreement they won't report anything negative to the credit bureaus

Then save up the $1250 , even if it takes a few months , and when you finally have it you can settle this

dshibb said:   I know it's a f&cked up thought, but just humor me here...

Do you think there is an interest rate, cost, or penalty that is high enough that it's very presence get's an idiot payday borrower to realize how much they're giving up by doing this and maybe changes their behavior on that account?

Do you think that the egregiousness of the payday loan market might play a role in teaching people about finances through sheer pain so that positive behavioral change come later?


I think the government should require a "truth in lending" much like a mortgage.



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