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Not so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person. Since they can have unlimited legal warchests and don't like to be wrong they might just litigate people to fiscal death. Lawyers win. This has terrible written all over it.


The Obama administration is drawing up plans to give all U.S. spy agencies full access to a massive database that contains financial data on American citizens and others who bank in the country, according to a Treasury Department document seen by Reuters.

...Some privacy watchdogs expressed concern about the plan when Reuters outlined it to them.

A move like the FinCEN proposal "raises concerns as to whether people could find their information in a file as a potential terrorist suspect without having the appropriate predicate for that and find themselves potentially falsely accused," said Sharon Bradford Franklin, senior counsel for the Rule of Law Program at the Constitution Project, a non-profit watchdog group

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/usa-banks-spying-idIND...

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Stay with the majority and you have nothing to worry about.

StGenius (Mar. 24, 2013 @ 10:25a) |

So.... buy houses I can't afford, lease vehicles out of my budget, don't save for retirement, and ignore 99% of FWF advi... (more)

BradisBrad (Mar. 24, 2013 @ 12:11p) |

FWalleters are those who will be paying for your retirement if you stay with the majority. Just watch them fattening and... (more)

StGenius (Mar. 24, 2013 @ 12:34p) |

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So much for the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Financial institutions that operate in the United States are required by law to file reports of "suspicious customer activity," such as large money transfers or unusually structured bank accounts, to Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN).

The Federal Bureau of Investigation already has full access to the database. However, intelligence agencies, such as the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency, currently have to make case-by-case requests for information to FinCEN.


From what I can tell, it looks like they are just expanding the ability the FBI already has to the CIA, most likely for the sake of monitoring funds that are either delivered to or from suspected terrorist organizations outside the country. For American citizens, I don't see this impacting anyone who is conducting legitimate business being that the FBI is already able to do this, and it doesn't look as if they are expanding the suspicious activity reporting beyond the already established MICL and CTR ($3000 cash used to purchase a monetary instrument or $10,000 deposit/withdrawal of cash).

If you think any part of your life is private from any government agency, you are mistaken.

suezyque said:   If you think any part of your life is private from any government agency, you are mistaken.
Doesn't make it right.

DeGlass said:   suezyque said:   If you think any part of your life is private from any government agency, you are mistaken.
Doesn't make it right.


I don't disagree.

When most people sheepishly went along with the Patriot Act right after the attacks, some people were warning that days like these (and worse) were near.
People, companies, governments with a lot of power only want one thing... more power.
And power is never given up freely....It has to be taken away by force.

I hate to say it but its starting to feel like they won.

Don't expect the presstitute media to ask any real questions of how this information may be misued and abused. It's amazing how an administrative arm of the govt can just play police, judge and jury without any real due process and how that is all taken for granted these days.

Where is SIS now? I warned a lot of people in prior threads that this was coming. It is not just the US that is doing this; Most countries in Europe are using computers to go after this now. See the special series (subscription required) at the Economist. For example payment in full of taxes owed in 2006 would have yielded a surplus of $135 billion instead of a final deficit of $240 billion. About $375 billion went unpaid.

This is why I say the FW Heavy hitters forum is like waiving a flag saying audit me. To say the attention is "unwarranted" is false. I am sure the attention will be unwanted though. If I were one of the people who played the mint game, I would be on the IRS doorstep Monday asking for amnesty. Remember the sentencing guidelines reward those who confess and pay up before the feds come looking for them.

Don't think FinCEN will get you on a terrorist list unless you do a lot of banking with Turks or Caymans or other dodgy places. But it sure might up your DIFF score and attract an audit. I have a client who is going to trial on credit card rewards tax fraud as one of many charges in June. He pocketed the Cash Back from business expenses.

When the first FWF reader gets drone bombed for buying some GCs it will bring new meaning to the term heavy hitter

KYBOSH said:   When most people sheepishly went along with the Patriot Act right after the attacks, some people were warning that days like these (and worse) were near.
People, companies, governments with a lot of power only want one thing... more power.
And power is never given up freely....It has to be taken away by force.

I hate to say it but its starting to feel like they won.


vstrt said:   Don't expect the presstitute media to ask any real questions of how this information may be misued and abused. It's amazing how an administrative arm of the govt can just play police, judge and jury without any real due process and how that is all taken for granted these days.

draculatreeforest summarized the article. Not that big deal to me...The Patriot Act is bigger.

And, supposedly we the people is giving more power. To prevent "taking away by force", doesn't government have 3 branches?

Will you provide one example within the United States of America where one arm of the govt played police, judge and jury without any real due process?

.nsdp said:   Where is SIS now? I warned a lot of people in prior threads that this was coming. It is not just the US that is doing this; Most countries in Europe are using computers to go after this now. See the special series (subscription required) at the Economist. For example payment in full of taxes owed in 2006 would have yielded a surplus of $135 billion instead of a final deficit of $240 billion. About $375 billion went unpaid.

This is why I say the FW Heavy hitters forum is like waiving a flag saying audit me. To say the attention is "unwarranted" is false. I am sure the attention will be unwanted though. If I were one of the people who played the mint game, I would be on the IRS doorstep Monday asking for amnesty. Remember the sentencing guidelines reward those who confess and pay up before the feds come looking for them.

Don't think FinCEN will get you on a terrorist list unless you do a lot of banking with Turks or Caymans or other dodgy places. But it sure might up your DIFF score and attract an audit. I have a client who is going to trial on credit card rewards tax fraud as one of many charges in June. He pocketed the Cash Back from business expenses.


Nsdp - in regards to your case, what kind of a scale are we talking? I'd venture to say most people get some air miles or cc rewards for business expenses they eventually get reimbursed for ... He must have been doing this on a huge scale ....

I thought cc rewards were generally considered purchase rebates y the IRS and therefore not subject to tax...

rmf1981 said:   .nsdp said:   Where is SIS now? I warned a lot of people in prior threads that this was coming. It is not just the US that is doing this; Most countries in Europe are using computers to go after this now. See the special series (subscription required) at the Economist. For example payment in full of taxes owed in 2006 would have yielded a surplus of $135 billion instead of a final deficit of $240 billion. About $375 billion went unpaid.

This is why I say the FW Heavy hitters forum is like waiving a flag saying audit me. To say the attention is "unwarranted" is false. I am sure the attention will be unwanted though. If I were one of the people who played the mint game, I would be on the IRS doorstep Monday asking for amnesty. Remember the sentencing guidelines reward those who confess and pay up before the feds come looking for them.

Don't think FinCEN will get you on a terrorist list unless you do a lot of banking with Turks or Caymans or other dodgy places. But it sure might up your DIFF score and attract an audit. I have a client who is going to trial on credit card rewards tax fraud as one of many charges in June. He pocketed the Cash Back from business expenses.


Nsdp - in regards to your case, what kind of a scale are we talking? I'd venture to say most people get some air miles or cc rewards for business expenses they eventually get reimbursed for ... He must have been doing this on a huge scale ....

I thought cc rewards were generally considered purchase rebates y the IRS and therefore not subject to tax...

Please dont take the bait and drag us down this rabbit hole again....

Got my bug-out bag ready to go

motuwallet said:   When the first FWF reader gets drone bombed for buying some GCs it will bring new meaning to the term heavy hitter Remember to look up next time you are leaving C,V,S.

DamnoIT said:   No so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about the risk of running into a wanna-be local hero - Ms. Nosey at the bank or store seeing you doing whatever, tells her brother/nephew/uncle in the local police department, who immediately starts drooling over the publicity and promotion coming from such a high-profile bust. That's when you end up getting dragged away in handcuffs - not for anything specific but because they "know you're up to something no good".

catanpirate said:   motuwallet said:   When the first FWF reader gets drone bombed for buying some GCs it will bring new meaning to the term heavy hitter Remember to look up next time you are leaving C,V,S.
And yet everyone will look at you wierd when you start running to the grocery store in a tank. Some people just cant comprehend the risks...

Who says FINCEN isn't already watching, hence the push for reload-able debit cards to be registered to a user.

Glitch99 said:   DamnoIT said:   No so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about the risk of running into a wanna-be local hero - Ms. Nosey at the bank or store seeing you doing whatever, tells her brother/nephew/uncle in the local police department, who immediately starts drooling over the publicity and promotion coming from such a high-profile bust. That's when you end up getting dragged away in handcuffs - not for anything specific but because they "know you're up to something no good".


The problem is those leads are followed up on by Federal agents, and once they start talking to you, you need counsel just to make sure you don't inadvertently lie to them, which is a crime by itself. NDSP?

vagrants said:   KYBOSH said:   When most people sheepishly went along with the Patriot Act right after the attacks, some people were warning that days like these (and worse) were near.
People, companies, governments with a lot of power only want one thing... more power.
And power is never given up freely....It has to be taken away by force.

I hate to say it but its starting to feel like they won.


vstrt said:   Don't expect the presstitute media to ask any real questions of how this information may be misued and abused. It's amazing how an administrative arm of the govt can just play police, judge and jury without any real due process and how that is all taken for granted these days.

draculatreeforest summarized the article. Not that big deal to me...The Patriot Act is bigger.

And, supposedly we the people is giving more power. To prevent "taking away by force", doesn't government have 3 branches?

Will you provide one example within the United States of America where one arm of the govt played police, judge and jury without any real due process?


DHS-hey can get you on a no-fly list without a trial. Want more examples?

TravelerMSY said:   Glitch99 said:   DamnoIT said:   No so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about the risk of running into a wanna-be local hero - Ms. Nosey at the bank or store seeing you doing whatever, tells her brother/nephew/uncle in the local police department, who immediately starts drooling over the publicity and promotion coming from such a high-profile bust. That's when you end up getting dragged away in handcuffs - not for anything specific but because they "know you're up to something no good".


The problem is those leads are followed up on by Federal agents, and once they start talking to you, you need counsel just to make sure you don't inadvertently lie to them, which is a crime by itself. NDSP?
If you need a 3rd party to tell you if you are lying, you have more significant issues than talking to the Feds...

Time to stop taking the terrorism Viagra.

Glitch99 said:   TravelerMSY said:   Glitch99 said:   DamnoIT said:   No so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about the risk of running into a wanna-be local hero - Ms. Nosey at the bank or store seeing you doing whatever, tells her brother/nephew/uncle in the local police department, who immediately starts drooling over the publicity and promotion coming from such a high-profile bust. That's when you end up getting dragged away in handcuffs - not for anything specific but because they "know you're up to something no good".


The problem is those leads are followed up on by Federal agents, and once they start talking to you, you need counsel just to make sure you don't inadvertently lie to them, which is a crime by itself. NDSP?
If you need a 3rd party to tell you if you are lying, you have more significant issues than talking to the Feds...


So you'd talk to the Feds without your lawyer being present? Lying to the Feds is one of the easiest charges for the Feds to prosecute.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.
Feel free. Ask away. My response will be the same: I don't consent to any searches. I'd like a lawyer. I don't wish to be interrogated, I have nothing to say. You'll need a warrant for that.

As I recall, this is how Elliot Spitzer got caught. They were looking at multiple SAR's because he was taking out 4k cash transactions and suspected smurfing, although the guy is probably worth millions, they focused on these cash transactions, followed the money and nailed him. So, if you have some expensive habits, perhaps you may not want to pay in cash.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/spitzer-caught-article-1.288370?...

Will you provide one example within the United States of America where one arm of the govt played police, judge and jury without any real due process?
Come on man, pick up a newspaper. Tenaha texas, Civil asset forfeiture, military drone assassination program. did you know the gov can seize your funds if they are simply large amounts of cash on you, which have been as small as a few thousands of dollars, for no reason at all other than generally deeming them suspicious and keep them without so much as an arrest, trial, or conviction. You would have to sue them to get the money back and prove that you obtained it legally.

vagrants said:   
Will you provide one example within the United States of America where one arm of the govt played police, judge and jury without any real due process?


The folks at Ruby Ridge would put up an argument. How about martial law after Katrina? In most cases the judicial branch "colludes" by not acting at all.

draculatreeforest said:   Financial institutions that operate in the United States are required by law to file reports of "suspicious customer activity," such as large money transfers or unusually structured bank accounts, to Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN).

The Federal Bureau of Investigation already has full access to the database. However, intelligence agencies, such as the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency, currently have to make case-by-case requests for information to FinCEN.


From what I can tell, it looks like they are just expanding the ability the FBI already has to the CIA, most likely for the sake of monitoring funds that are either delivered to or from suspected terrorist organizations outside the country. For American citizens, I don't see this impacting anyone who is conducting legitimate business being that the FBI is already able to do this, and it doesn't look as if they are expanding the suspicious activity reporting beyond the already established MICL and CTR ($3000 cash used to purchase a monetary instrument or $10,000 deposit/withdrawal of cash).


Big difference, though. The CIA is a foreign intelligence service. They're not supposed to spy on, or "investigate," Americans. That's the FBI's purview. They follow different rules (theoretically, anyway).

it might be harder to get information
link

This occurrence is called "asset forfeiture." It is well known among those who value freedom. Not necessary to prove anyone did anything, just insinuate, seize for own ends any and all assets including thise for necessary defense in any "court of law".

vagrants said:   Will you provide one example within the United States of America where one arm of the govt played police, judge and jury without any real due process?

City police departments do this all the time. Just ask those two Asian ladies who got shot from behind by the LAPD, when were looking for that Dorner madman.

ach1199 said:   Glitch99 said:   TravelerMSY said:   Glitch99 said:   DamnoIT said:   No so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about the risk of running into a wanna-be local hero - Ms. Nosey at the bank or store seeing you doing whatever, tells her brother/nephew/uncle in the local police department, who immediately starts drooling over the publicity and promotion coming from such a high-profile bust. That's when you end up getting dragged away in handcuffs - not for anything specific but because they "know you're up to something no good".


The problem is those leads are followed up on by Federal agents, and once they start talking to you, you need counsel just to make sure you don't inadvertently lie to them, which is a crime by itself. NDSP?
If you need a 3rd party to tell you if you are lying, you have more significant issues than talking to the Feds...


So you'd talk to the Feds without your lawyer being present? Lying to the Feds is one of the easiest charges for the Feds to prosecute.

Ask Martha Stewart, not guilty of any financial crime but sent to prison for lying to a federal agent in a resturant.

Glitch99 said:   TravelerMSY said:   Glitch99 said:   DamnoIT said:   No so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about the risk of running into a wanna-be local hero - Ms. Nosey at the bank or store seeing you doing whatever, tells her brother/nephew/uncle in the local police department, who immediately starts drooling over the publicity and promotion coming from such a high-profile bust. That's when you end up getting dragged away in handcuffs - not for anything specific but because they "know you're up to something no good".


The problem is those leads are followed up on by Federal agents, and once they start talking to you, you need counsel just to make sure you don't inadvertently lie to them, which is a crime by itself. NDSP?
If you need a 3rd party to tell you if you are lying, you have more significant issues than talking to the Feds...


They will try to trick you, and any inconsistencies what you tell them could be construed as lying. You have no upside in talking to them. And I am assuming you've done nothing wrong.

How am I supposed to launder the money from my greater than 16oz soda smuggling operation now...

I wonder if they are going to run back raids on all the dollar coin churners, if they miss the payment method using a credit card and just see thousands deposited over and over to a bank account they might get it wrong. They will send the Susan B Anthony task force after us.

vstrt said:   Don't expect the presstitute media to ask any real questions of how this information may be misued and abused. It's amazing how an administrative arm of the govt can just play police, judge and jury without any real due process and how that is all taken for granted these days.

draculatreeforest summarized the article. Not that big deal to me...The Patriot Act is bigger.

And, supposedly we the people is giving more power. To prevent "taking away by force", doesn't government have 3 branches?

Will you provide one example within the United States of America where one arm of the govt played police, judge and jury without any real due process?

Are you kidding me? Never heard of the IRS? You are out of your mind if you don't think Congress, the Executive branch and the judge aren't conspiring with each other to put innocent people in jail.

Glitch99 said:   DamnoIT said:   No so great news for us legitimate users of services to churn cc offers or bank bonuses. Get some green idiot from the CIA, FBI whatever thinking they have someone committing a crime because they move money around - although it comes back to the same person.

This database does not contain individual transcation data. If you've had dozens of SARs filed on you, you probably do deserve being looked into a bit, even if you're completely legit. Nothing wrong with being asked a few questions.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about the risk of running into a wanna-be local hero - Ms. Nosey at the bank or store seeing you doing whatever, tells her brother/nephew/uncle in the local police department, who immediately starts drooling over the publicity and promotion coming from such a high-profile bust. That's when you end up getting dragged away in handcuffs - not for anything specific but because they "know you're up to something no good".

Might be a good time for a thread on what to do when your local police catch you churning gcs

I wonder what percent of these millions of reported transactions are by the bad guys up to doing something bad. It must be something awfully small, like 0.000001%. I'm thinking that percentage might be higher between two people talking over lunch at a Taco Bell. Maybe 0.00001%. So why doesn't the government classify eating at a fast food restaurant suspicious requiring them to report what they ate? My point is all this reporting has gone far beyond the war on terror.

DamnoIT said:   I wonder if they are going to run back raids on all the dollar coin churners, if they miss the payment method using a credit card and just see thousands deposited over and over to a bank account they might get it wrong. They will send the Susan B Anthony task force after us.

Won't take long. There was a gentleman (I use the term loosely) who was making $5-6k/mo. on the mint Cash Back scam. Now if he didn't report the Cash Back and "returned" the rolls or deposited them at his bank, he is toast. They have until 6 years after he filed his last tax return for a year where he did the deed or April 15th of the year where the return was due. For 2008, the return is due April 15,2009 so they have until April 15, 2015 at the earliest. Extensions extend the statute of limitations. In the words of John Minor Wisdom, you look to the substance of the transaction not the technicalities in a tax fraud case. Judge Wisdom is more frequently cited than most Supreme Court Justices. Only 11 judges have Courts of Appeals buildings named after them. He is one. Know the building Traveler MSY? Anyway to answer your question my guy has about $350k over a 5 year period. All the business expenses were charged on a Cash Back card. He has other problems; this was just added as a bonus that they know they can convict him on. Right now he is singing like a bird.

For those of you who missed it, the Economist Feb 16th 2013 issue has a cover article about $20 trillion in tax fraud world wide each year. Data gets shared as in Mr Romney's case where he didn't pay Dutch taxes on $80 million in "dividends" that he immediately transferred to Switzerland. Big catch may be that the Dutch do not consider "carried interest "payments on hedge funds to be dividends as the US code did until Jan1. Be interesting to see how that one plays out.

FinCEN and its foreign counterparts have been active for at least 5 years now going after the really big fish who evade millions in taxes. They still have at least two years to come back on most credit card Cash Back programs. I do suggest you read the Economist to get the full scope of what is going on. Computers are wonderful. "Be Seeing you" said No. 6.

nsdp has been saying this for some time, and how right he turned out to be...

I'd rather the NSA see my credit card statements than my wife.

Skipping 13 Messages...
BradisBrad said:   StGenius said:   Stay with the majority and you have nothing to worry about.

So.... buy houses I can't afford, lease vehicles out of my budget, don't save for retirement, and ignore 99% of FWF advice?


FWalleters are those who will be paying for your retirement if you stay with the majority. Just watch them fattening and vote accordingly.



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