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dshibb said:   Magika

So I guess we just stop posting all negative news then?

Should the mods start removing any piece of information that anybody could come on here and say "Oh now" about?


Straw man. I said:

magika said:   
The OP in and of itself has some merit and could have turned into a non-paranoid discussion.


There is a difference between reasonable, reality-based discussion of news and paranoid fear mongering. This thread has turned into the later, while I support the former - thus the red brigade (doom porn is popular).

magika said:   dshibb said:   Magika

So I guess we just stop posting all negative news then?

Should the mods start removing any piece of information that anybody could come on here and say "Oh now" about?


Straw man. I said:

magika said:   
The OP in and of itself has some merit and could have turned into a non-paranoid discussion.


There is a difference between reasonable, reality-based discussion of news and paranoid fear mongering. This thread has turned into the later, while I support the former - thus the red brigade (doom porn is popular).


Why all because the OP said "I hope this is not the beginning of a trend?"

That seems pretty harmless to me.

Also I don't know how you block out the couple bombshelter builders from coming on and posting once the topic is posted. Do you have any ideas for that one?

I think the red was probably mostly for what people saw was an overreaction, and less so about any disagreement in regards to whether it will happen here.

"The Cypriot banking system had grown to be eight times the size of the country’s fledgling economy – which accounts for just 0.2pc of the eurozone’s gross domestic product. It is thought the measure was focused on capturing funds from suspected Russian money- laundering and will not be repeated in future bail-outs."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9935242/Cypru...

Argyll said:   "It is thought the measure was focused on capturing funds from suspected Russian money- laundering and will not be repeated in future bail-outs."

I'll see your newspaper's anonymous quoting and raise you a finance ministers(that is the very next sentence of that very article) and a prime minister.

Dutch Finance Minister said: "As it is a contribution to the financial stability of Cyprus, it seems just to ask for a contribution of all deposit-holders,” said Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch finance minister, who chaired the bail-out meeting.

and

Luxembourg Prime Minister said: Jean-Claude Juncker - "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

But no it's really about all of them damn Russians! Read, "PIGS depositors this really was an experiment, but to prevent panic we made up some bull$hit about how we're only doing it to soak them damn Russians. Please don't worry!"

If they were going after the Russian money , my idea to only go after accounts with more than $xxxxxxx (at a higher percentage , to capture the same $6b) would have been more effective , while instilling confidence in the residents

stormdog123 said:   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21814325

People in Cyprus with less than 100,000 euros in their accounts will have to pay a one-time tax of 6.75%, Eurozone officials said. Those with greater sums will lose 9.9%. Cypriot bank officials quoted by AP news agency said depositors could access all of their money except the amount set by the levy.

I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.


You'd still have over 100K (USD). But wouldn't you be running to the bank on Monday?

basically Schäuble says Cyprus delenda est. should be interesting headlines next few days

stormdog123 said:   I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.

Wait until the government puts a means test on Social Security, and steals a lot more that 9.9% of 100,000. by denying you payments you've been promised when they stole money out of your paycheck for 40 years and said it was in the Social Security safebox, and makes payments to people who need them because they blew all their money on expensive cars, vacations, homes, entertaining while you saved for the future. 20 years ago, a co-worker told me that people that have money in the bank and don't use it should have it taken away from them. He spent all his money on coke. I guess he was right.

If you had your money in a Spanish, Italian, or Greek bank right now you wouldn't consider moving it out? Cyprus itself is basically irrelevant. But it was the Eurocrats who forced this policy on them. If they can do it in Cyprus they can do it elsewhere. Even if it's unlikely, would you take that risk? Some people have woken up to find that a tenth of their life's accumulation of wealth taken away overnight. Not 10% of income... Savings. On the other hand, if you put your wealth into real estate or equities you aren't responsible at all. That's the danger here. Managing an economy these days has been reduced to a confidence game - and arbitrarily assigning liability for recapitalizing banks on savers is not exactly the best way to maintain confidence in liquid savings? Depositors throughout Europe will be justifiably spooked..

motuwallet said:   but this is quite shocking. why not just inflate out ?Cyprus does not have a printing press

the Cyprus Parliament has to vote today (postponed to Monday) on this measure, so until that is done ... this is just a resoundingly loud warning shot. There will be a massive withdrawals from Cypriot banks on Tuesday.. expect turmoil.

In the so what column.......
To counterbalance their cash loss, depositors will receive Cypriot bank bonds. Neophytou said there are efforts to back up those bonds – which have little value now – with Cyprus' newfound offshore gas reserves, although extraction is still several years away.
------
The 59,000 British residents of Cyprus who not working for the U.K. military or the government (who will be compensated by the UK) could still be out of pocket.

bamadad said:   There will be a massive withdrawals from Cypriot banks on Tuesday...
now closed on Tuesday also. A 5 day holiday is better than 2.

cows123 said:   stormdog123 said:   I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.

Wait until the government puts a means test on Social Security, and steals a lot more that 9.9% of 100,000. by denying you payments you've been promised when they stole money out of your paycheck for 40 years


Social Security is a pay as you go program. The money you or I or our grandmothers pay or paid in taxes today or yesterday is, and always has been, used to pay for the benefits paid to today's and yesterday's recipients. Your, mine and our grandmother's benefits tomorrow will be paid out of the taxes paid by tomorrow's workers. Further, neither you nor I nor our grandmothers have ever been "promised" anything when it comes to future benefits.

As for your comment on "them stealing the money out of your paycheck" - only if you think all taxes are stealing, would this even be close to true. At which point, if I were you, there are plenty of taxes I would feel were stealing much more so than social security.

GotRocks said:   I live in Cyprus (I moved here 2 and a half years ago) and this action has just cost me about $5500. I am FURIOUS! Thank god I did not exchange my $ for Euros last year when the Euro was about $1.2 (there was lots of talk about Greece leaving the Euro, and where Greece goes, Cyprus soon follows).

The way this is being enacted is pure unadulterated theft. Monday is a holiday here in Cyprus. It was announced this morning (Sat) when all the banks are closed. ATMs are out of service. The crap will hit the fan on Tuesday.

The Cyprus economy is not good and this action is hurting all the British expat pensioners and the middle class Cypriots and me (I don't fall into either of those categories). People will curb their spending even more because the gov just confiscated this money. Unemployment will rise because people will not be spending money. More Brits will pack up and go home and unemployment will rise some more. All this because of Cyprus' exposure to Greek banks.

Don't be surprised when this is enacted in the US (there has been talk). I think a trip to Switzerland is in order shortly.

I am furious for you. There are not many things that would lend me to protest the government in an armed fashion - but this would definitely be one of them (this is not meant to spur an argument about taxes). This is an absolutely dubious means of stealing money from the citizens of Cyprus.

DadofPoohs said:   cows123 said:   stormdog123 said:   I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.

Wait until the government puts a means test on Social Security, and steals a lot more that 9.9% of 100,000. by denying you payments you've been promised when they stole money out of your paycheck for 40 years


Social Security is a pay as you go program. The money you or I or our grandmothers pay or paid in taxes today or yesterday is, and always has been, used to pay for the benefits paid to today's and yesterday's recipients. Your, mine and our grandmother's benefits tomorrow will be paid out of the taxes paid by tomorrow's workers. Further, neither you nor I nor our grandmothers have ever been "promised" anything when it comes to future benefits.

As for your comment on "them stealing the money out of your paycheck" - only if you think all taxes are stealing, would this even be close to true. At which point, if I were you, there are plenty of taxes I would feel were stealing much more so than social security.


This is exactly the logic that will be used to means test social security in the not too distant future and screw all of us suckers who are saving for retirement. Our politicians will pander to the majority who save little or nothing because us evil "rich folk can afford it".

Argyll said:   Read what would have happened if they didn't do this:

"Choosing the catastrophic scenario would have led to the following...


That all adds up to a lot more than $6B.

So, did a surprise $6B tax prevent ANY of that from happening, or did it just delay it from happening this month?

neophyte said:   
And yes, it gives an ammunition to FIAT critics and gold bugs


So does this:

If Alan Greenspan Wants to end the Fed times must be changing

abracadabra1 said:   There are not many things that would lend me to protest the government in an armed fashion - but this would definitely be one of themWord. That guy with the bulldozer should lever it against Marfin Popular Bank and express the will of the Populace

3 pages and NO WORD on how to benefit from whole thing?

How about to short one of those on Monday?

Also US market may use this Cyprus thing as a perfect excuse to retreat and consolidate after good run up.
I already have chunk of change sitting in cash waiting for correction, will that trigger a good one (8-10% down)?

MoneyOCD said:   
How about to short on Monday?

Gap Limit Down on Open restricts such opportunities

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   If they were going after the Russian money , my idea to only go after accounts with more than $xxxxxxx (at a higher percentage , to capture the same $6b) would have been more effective , while instilling confidence in the residents

Rumor has it the IMF originally suggested 0% of accounts under 100,000, and 100% over.

stormdog123 said:   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21814325

People in Cyprus with less than 100,000 euros in their accounts will have to pay a one-time tax of 6.75%, Eurozone officials said. Those with greater sums will lose 9.9%. Cypriot bank officials quoted by AP news agency said depositors could access all of their money except the amount set by the levy.

I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.


Our bank bailouts will cause much more than 9.9% of your savings to disappear... and you won't even notice it... it's not going to be done by a levy but rather by a loss of purchasing power caused by inflation and quantitative easing.

We in the US are smarter in dipping into people's savings accounts. No complaints by the public when interest rates are targeted to be nearly zero to help fed profits and lower the cost of runaway government debt.
So bank savings accounts are invisibly fleeced by dropping the interest rate form 5 to less than 1 %

DadofPoohs said:   cows123 said:   stormdog123 said:   I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.

Wait until the government puts a means test on Social Security, and steals a lot more that 9.9% of 100,000. by denying you payments you've been promised when they stole money out of your paycheck for 40 years


Social Security is a pay as you go program. The money you or I or our grandmothers pay or paid in taxes today or yesterday is, and always has been, used to pay for the benefits paid to today's and yesterday's recipients. Your, mine and our grandmother's benefits tomorrow will be paid out of the taxes paid by tomorrow's workers. Further, neither you nor I nor our grandmothers have ever been "promised" anything when it comes to future benefits.

As for your comment on "them stealing the money out of your paycheck" - only if you think all taxes are stealing, would this even be close to true. At which point, if I were you, there are plenty of taxes I would feel were stealing much more so than social security.


Stealing money from paycheck is not actually the correct term and neither is it Ponzi scheme. It is a transparent program to take funds from current workers to pay retired workers. It works like a ponzi setup but it is not a ponzi scheme because it is not hidden and everyone should know it. It will work until there are less workers and more retirees in the future.

rpi1967 said:   
Stealing money from paycheck is not actually the correct term and neither is it Ponzi scheme. It is a transparent program to take funds from current workers to pay retired workers. It works like a ponzi setup but it is not a ponzi scheme because it is not hidden and everyone should know it. It will work until there are less workers and more retirees in the future.


Just like robbery is more transparent than theft.

rpi1967 said:   We in the US are smarter in dipping into people's savings accounts. No complaints by the public when interest rates are targeted to be nearly zero to help fed profits and lower the cost of runaway government debt.
So bank savings accounts are invisibly fleeced by dropping the interest rate form 5 to less than 1 %

Good analogy .weve suffered a 4% levy /loss on our bank deposit interest income And we are ok with it

When I was young, one of my relatives was receiving a federal disability retirement and having financial problems at the same time (back taxes). I remember seeing the checks and asking why they did not use direct deposit. They explained that if they received a funds via direct deposit the funds would be levied immediately but if they just cashed a check that was not a problem.

I was recently reminded of this when the government decided to end all checks for federal benefits (More details at: http://www.godirect.org/). From the website:
"If you still receive a paper check for your Social Security or other federal benefit payments, you are out of compliance with the law. The Treasury Department requires federal benefit payments to be made electronically."

Step 1. - Force funds into the banking system
...
Step 3. - Profit


DadofPoohs said:   cows123 said:   stormdog123 said:   I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.

Wait until the government puts a means test on Social Security, and steals a lot more that 9.9% of 100,000. by denying you payments you've been promised when they stole money out of your paycheck for 40 years


Social Security is a pay as you go program. The money you or I or our grandmothers pay or paid in taxes today or yesterday is, and always has been, used to pay for the benefits paid to today's and yesterday's recipients. Your, mine and our grandmother's benefits tomorrow will be paid out of the taxes paid by tomorrow's workers. Further, neither you nor I nor our grandmothers have ever been "promised" anything when it comes to future benefits.

As for your comment on "them stealing the money out of your paycheck" - only if you think all taxes are stealing, would this even be close to true. At which point, if I were you, there are plenty of taxes I would feel were stealing much more so than social security.


Actually I have been promised a SS benefit, they gave me a statement showing exactly how much I'll get at retirement. And Grandma has been told she will get SS until she dies at X amount per year.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   If they were going after the Russian money , my idea to only go after accounts with more than $xxxxxxx (at a higher percentage , to capture the same $6b) would have been more effective , while instilling confidence in the residents

Or they can give tax credit to the residents for the amount of levy. If they dont want to do that upfront, they can do it over the years... that should keep the residents happy. It will destroy their international clientele, permanently, though...

I think they already destroyed their international clientele with this move
Rich people with international funds will flee to a safer haven regardless

Yep, I can happily report I have no money in any of those banks now

DrDubious said:   Anyone got a clue on the demographics of who keeps money in the banks in cyprus vs owning real estate and other assets not apparently affected by this levy? Likewise, anyone got a clue why they didn't just levy foreign account holders if the point was to go after russian mobsters?

From the many articles I am reading, about 50% of the bank accounts in Cyprus belong to non-residents.

Here's the latest news I have access to (as of 11:15pm 17 March Cyprus time):

The Parliament still has to vote on this levy. They are voting on Monday. Monday is a holiday. There is descension among members of Parliament.
Tuesday the banks will be closed and possibly Wednesday.
The UK government plans to reimburse any British government personal (there are British military bases here) for any levy applied to accounts they may have here in Cyprus.
Out-of-Cyprus branches of Cypriot banks are not affected.

Today (sunday) at 11:30am I went to my bank's ATM and was able to make 2 withdrawals totaling 880 Euros. I did this for 2 reasons - 1) to see if I could and 2) to have some cash on hand in the event that the banks are closed all week. I was surprised that money was available and that I was able to withdraw that amount (I thought there was a 440 Euro daily limit). There was another guy at the ATM withdrawing money.

People were thinking that if they emptied their bank accounts before Tuesday, that would lessen the effect of the levy somewhat (I certainly can't remove 50,000 Euros via ATM over a period of 2 days) but we are hearing that they would just use the account balance as of COB Friday (before the gov dropped this little bomb on us) so there was no point of trying to draw down your account.

Monday is the start of Orthodox Lent. It's called Green Monday. The (religious) Cypriots fast for the entire period of Lent - no dairy or meat. So on the day before there are big Carnival parades followed by what my friend calls a big pig out where families get together and just stuff themselves on pork souvla and all kinds of things that they can't eat during lent. So I expected to see a lot of people out celebrating Carnival and the smell of barbeque in the air. It was eerily quiet today and no one in my neighborhood had lit a barbeque. This is very strange considering that the Cypriots are a boisterous people. I live near the sea and traditionally on Green Monday, everyone prepares appropriate Lenten food and makes a picnic at the various picnic places along the sea. All the Nicosians come down to the sea. I'm told not to expect that tomorrow. That is a big deal here.

Another possibility is that they will only apply the levy on accounts over 100,000 Euros. I can only hope - that would leave me in the clear.

My Cypriot friends tell me that the new President caved to the Troika. They say the Eurocrats imposed these conditions because they got sick and tired of the Communist Christofias (the previous pres) dicking around with coming to an agreement for a bailout. He had been doing this for over a year. The new president assured the country as part of his campaign that deposits would be safe (well, we all know about campaign promises).

This whole thing is a huge disaster. I don't know what to expect as far as daily life here. Cypriots will not riot like the Greeks have, though they may have been pushed over the edge with this one. I can't imagine anyone having any confidence in Cypriot Banks for a VERY long time. So the new president's goal to save banking industry jobs will not be realised. The banking jobs won't be here when everyone pulls their money out of Cyprus.

This will affect tourism too. The tourist season starts in May. Would you come to Cyprus if the economy was in turmoil? So that is another effect on the livelihoods of the average Cypriot. However, with no work in the tourist industry, maybe the Eastern Europeans, who seem to be the cause of increasing petty crime here, will go home.

Is this 6.75% levy going to kill me? Probably not, but I may have to die a few years earlier if my funds run out. The effects of this will be far-reaching and that is what concerns me most. Things are going to be very unsettled here for the next few weeks, if not longer. I have a full tank of gas, a full pantry, a stockpile of cat food for the felines, and vegetables growing in my garden. I may have to get a fishing pole.

Rathipon said:   If you had your money in a Spanish, Italian, or Greek bank right now you wouldn't consider moving it out? Cyprus itself is basically irrelevant. But it was the Eurocrats who forced this policy on them. If they can do it in Cyprus they can do it elsewhere. Even if it's unlikely, would you take that risk? Some people have woken up to find that a tenth of their life's accumulation of wealth taken away overnight. Not 10% of income... Savings. On the other hand, if you put your wealth into real estate or equities you aren't responsible at all. That's the danger here. Managing an economy these days has been reduced to a confidence game - and arbitrarily assigning liability for recapitalizing banks on savers is not exactly the best way to maintain confidence in liquid savings? Depositors throughout Europe will be justifiably spooked..

I find the likely mentality of people in PIGS countries to be very similar in some ways to the beginning of the financial crisis here with money market funds. I remember very much pulling out all my $ from non-treasury MMs and putting them in treasury MMs the day before they added the guarantees / basically we very well could have seen a lot of funds "break-the-buck" and effectively take a cut out of one's perceived safe-haven savings. Basically they had stated there was such a similar outflow to where people were going to be losing principal on their money markets... it was unprecidented.

I definitely agree that if I were in a PIGS country this news would be getting my own personal attention.

BlueSeaLake said:   DadofPoohs said:   cows123 said:   stormdog123 said:   I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. To wake up and discover that 9.9% of your savings are gone would devastate me.

Wait until the government puts a means test on Social Security, and steals a lot more that 9.9% of 100,000. by denying you payments you've been promised when they stole money out of your paycheck for 40 years


Social Security is a pay as you go program. The money you or I or our grandmothers pay or paid in taxes today or yesterday is, and always has been, used to pay for the benefits paid to today's and yesterday's recipients. Your, mine and our grandmother's benefits tomorrow will be paid out of the taxes paid by tomorrow's workers. Further, neither you nor I nor our grandmothers have ever been "promised" anything when it comes to future benefits.

As for your comment on "them stealing the money out of your paycheck" - only if you think all taxes are stealing, would this even be close to true. At which point, if I were you, there are plenty of taxes I would feel were stealing much more so than social security.


Actually I have been promised a SS benefit, they gave me a statement showing exactly how much I'll get at retirement. And Grandma has been told she will get SS until she dies at X amount per year.

You didn't read it - "It provides estimates of your Social Security benefits under current law..."

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   I think they already destroyed their international clientele with this move
Rich people with international funds will flee to a safer haven regardless


They said that one of the two banks involved would close and the other would go into default, meaning depositors would lose most of their money. The government does not have the funds to insure the deposits. So the option was depositors losing all or most of their money or somewhere between 6 and 10%. Which would you choose? Not to mention the first option would mean the collapse of the entire banking system and most of the economy, making any remaining money worth 40% less because of the devaluation of the currency.

Rathipon said:   If you had your money in a Spanish, Italian, or Greek bank right now you wouldn't consider moving it out? Cyprus itself is basically irrelevant. But it was the Eurocrats who forced this policy on them. If they can do it in Cyprus they can do it elsewhere. Even if it's unlikely, would you take that risk? Some people have woken up to find that a tenth of their life's accumulation of wealth taken away overnight. Not 10% of income... Savings. On the other hand, if you put your wealth into real estate or equities you aren't responsible at all. That's the danger here. Managing an economy these days has been reduced to a confidence game - and arbitrarily assigning liability for recapitalizing banks on savers is not exactly the best way to maintain confidence in liquid savings? Depositors throughout Europe will be justifiably spooked..

The alternative was to lose 100% of savings. And any money stashed under the mattress would be worth 40% less because of devaluation of the Cypriot currency, and the economy would come to a halt and you wouldn't be able to buy much anyway, nor would you likely have employment.

If anyone here is into currency trading.. good time to look at shorting the euro (at least short term) - Currently euro is trending down (Asian markets are open) but the real action hopefully, will be when London opens.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   If they were going after the Russian money , my idea to only go after accounts with more than $xxxxxxx (at a higher percentage , to capture the same $6b) would have been more effective , while instilling confidence in the residents

Or they could just look at the last name of the account holder - the greek last names are very different from Russians. I would be willing to provide my services to tell the russian names apart from the greek ones.

vishalj77 said:   If anyone here is into currency trading.. good time to look at shorting the euro (at least short term) - Currently euro is trending down (Asian markets are open) but the real action hopefully, will be when London opens.
i see less risk in shorting the yen against usd

DeGlass said:   vishalj77 said:   If anyone here is into currency trading.. good time to look at shorting the euro (at least short term) - Currently euro is trending down (Asian markets are open) but the real action hopefully, will be when London opens.
i see less risk in shorting the yen against usd


Problem with Yen is that Yen pairs are just too volatile. Back when BNP froze assets, I shorted the GBP/JPY and banked a ton of pips.. but it was a wild ride that scared the heck out of me. I got out with a $2500 profit .. had I held on for just 3-4 hours more, it could have been $25,000.



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