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I have a family member (not immediate) who is a Radiology resident, so it does carry some interest. A 5-to-7 years commitment as a resident is huge and is very much real.

Job Prospects Are Dimming for Radiology Trainees

For years, medical students who chose a residency in radiology were said to be on the ROAD to happiness. The acronym highlighted the specialties radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesiology and dermatology said to promise the best lifestyle for doctors, including the most money for the least grueling work.
A dozen radiologists in training at St. Barnabas Hospital in the Bronx received termination notices because the hospital is ending their residency program.
Not anymore. Radiologists still make twice as much as family doctors, but are high on the list of specialists whose incomes are in steepest decline. Recent radiology graduates with huge medical school debts are having trouble finding work, let alone the $400,000-and-up dream jobs that beckoned as they signed on for five to seven years of relatively low-paid labor as trainees. On Internet forums, younger radiology residents agonize about whether it is too late to switch tracks.

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oops. double-post.

medicine (Apr. 01, 2013 @ 11:10a) |

Is this more hand-waving or do you have something to support those numbers? 90% is quite a large number, and 5-10 years ... (more)

medicine (Apr. 01, 2013 @ 11:13a) |

In absolute numbers, there are more medical doctors in USA than in India. (Keep in mind that the population in India is ... (more)

Direstraits66 (Apr. 01, 2013 @ 9:30p) |

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Cool story for the 0.001% of the population who will go into this field. The bottom line - word gets out of a sweet gig, the market gets saturated, and the gravy train is over.

It's about time. Offshoring/insourcing of radiology work should have whacked their wages a long time ago.

Anesthesiologists should be next in line, any qualified nurse can hook up an IV and monitor heart rate (and many are already doing so).

Serpentor said:   
Anesthesiologists should be next in line, any qualified nurse can hook up an IV and monitor heart rate (and many are already doing so).


Anesthesiologists get paid the big $$ because they get sued the most if a surgery goes wrong. I don't even know if nurses get paid enough to cover the malpractice insurance.

avalon6 said:   Anesthesiologists get paid the big $$ because they get sued the most if a surgery goes wrong. I don't even know if nurses get paid enough to cover the malpractice insurance.

Perhaps.

But nurses tend to be employees of the hospital.

Whereas anesthesiologists may or may not be hospital employees.

So there would be different malpractice coverage.

Why don't you go to a nurse to have your anesthesia, I dare you. Bill Clinton had an MD Anesthesiologist when he had his surgery, not some incompetant cRNA nurse.

RedCelicaGT said:    The bottom line - word gets out of a sweet gig, the market gets saturated, and the gravy train is over.Doesn't that make it a perfect article for FWF?

There are jobs in Rural America. In fact you get paid more in rural areas than in big cities.

bigtimesaver3652 said:   Why don't you go to a nurse to have your anesthesia, I dare you. Bill Clinton had an MD Anesthesiologist when he had his surgery, not some incompetant cRNA nurse.

Yeah, and Bill Clinton's mother was a nurse anestetist! She ought to know and told him NO to nurse anesthesia!

This totally makes sense. Huge economic profits with little barriers to entry means such profits will disappear quickly.

"to promise the best lifestyle for doctors, including the most money for the least grueling work."

Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme. I know it is not that quick, but metaphorically speaking, it is quick compared to what other doctors have to put up to earn their stripes.

IMO, this is excellent news for the general public and the healthcare system.

I used to work in the IT radiology field...

The future is scary for Radiologist... many of them are pulling in 500k salaries. Once the studies are performed they can be sent anywhere in the world using digital radiology. Probably only a matter of time until they are all sent to India.

Also, digital radiology allows a radiologist to be more productive and go through studies much faster than film and get much higher resolution and studies from multiple locations reducing the total number of radiologist needed.

One of the most awkward meetings I've been in was when we discussed out voice dictation software... the hospital invited two of their transcriptions to the meeting which our software was making their job irrelevant.

Does the same story apply to SAP consultants as i am trying to switch from Java work .
RedCelicaGT said:   Cool story for the 0.001% of the population who will go into this field. The bottom line - word gets out of a sweet gig, the market gets saturated, and the gravy train is over.

evlemonkfish said:   I have a family member (not immediate) who is a Radiology resident, so it does carry some interest. A 5-to-7 years commitment as a resident is huge and is very much real.

Job Prospects Are Dimming for Radiology Trainees

For years, medical students who chose a residency in radiology were said to be on the ROAD to happiness. The acronym highlighted the specialties radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesiology and dermatology said to promise the best lifestyle for doctors, including the most money for the least grueling work.
A dozen radiologists in training at St. Barnabas Hospital in the Bronx received termination notices because the hospital is ending their residency program.
Not anymore. Radiologists still make twice as much as family doctors, but are high on the list of specialists whose incomes are in steepest decline. Recent radiology graduates with huge medical school debts are having trouble finding work, let alone the $400,000-and-up dream jobs that beckoned as they signed on for five to seven years of relatively low-paid labor as trainees. On Internet forums, younger radiology residents agonize about whether it is too late to switch tracks.


Add optometry and pharmacy to that list.

tolamapS said:   This totally makes sense. Huge economic profits with little barriers to entry means such profits will disappear quickly.

"to promise the best lifestyle for doctors, including the most money for the least grueling work."

Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme. I know it is not that quick, but metaphorically speaking, it is quick compared to what other doctors have to put up to earn their stripes.

IMO, this is excellent news for the general public and the healthcare system.


Not commenting on the rest of your post but to argue "little barriers for entry" lies somewhere on the spectrum including "laughably ignorant" and "clinically insane."

Wait, they only read images?
That sounds like something that eventually computers can do for you.

I think it's pretty well understood today Derm is the undisputed king of value when it comes to income/lifestyle.

Know someone who got a 99.99%(asterisk) on I believe his USMLE and was told he had his choice of any field he wants and basically every residency program in the country would take him in a heart beat. He picked Derm.

The only other one that they said people that score that high pick is Neuro because even though you don't have a life it's pretty realistic to make over a mil a year. The Derm boys have a life even during residency(45 hours a week during residency while all other residents basically live at the hospital).

evlemonkfish said:   For years, medical students who chose a residency in radiology were said to be on the ROAD to happiness. The acronym highlighted the specialties radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesiology and dermatology said to promise the best lifestyle for doctors, including the most money for the least grueling work.Anesthesiology is on that list for reasons that have nothing to do the "least grueling work." In fact, it's actually quite difficult to have a reasonable lifestyle as an anesthesiologist, as there's no such thing as home call, and you are frequently doing shift work that requires you to be up for 30 hours straight. You also have very little patient interaction, so the joke is that people with good people skills do not become anesthesiologists (and two of our good friends are anesthesiologists).

The nice thing about anesthesiology is the fact that you don't have to do a fellowship to make good money and you're very quickly making very decent money.

dshibb said:   I think it's pretty well understood today Derm is the undisputed king of value when it comes to income/lifestyle.

Know someone who got a 99.99%(asterisk) on I believe his USMLE and was told he had his choice of any field he wants and basically every residency program in the country would take him in a heart beat. He picked Derm.
This is actually a good point to consider for people who are envious of MD salaries but who don't know anything about the lifestyles that many of them require. Dermatology is not even close to being the highest paid specialty. There are many, many, many specialties that are compensated way better than dermatology and yet dermatology is ultra-competitive to get into because of the lifestyle that it offers: there is no or virtually no call, drama, etc... In other words, people are willing to forego hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional compensation per year to avoid the lifestyle that's typically required if you go into most other specialties.

Serpentor said:   Anesthesiologists should be next in line, any qualified nurse can hook up an IV and monitor heart rate (and many are already doing so).
Uh, no. If you've ever been in the OR with a patient crumping, that's not going to cut it. It's always interesting to hear about how people like to cut corners, but still want the best and someone to blame when something goes wrong (i.e. Patient: "I know I said I only wanted a qualified nurse because I knew having the anesthesiologist there was just a scam to get my hard-earned money, but you should have known this was going to happen!!").

Btw, don't assume that a "qualified nurse" can start an IV or draw blood; many nurses that graduate from nursing schools these days can't! Heck, even some nurses that have been working for years can't draw blood. I'm not saying that it's a large number, but it happens not infrequently.

I'm just in residency and not even in a procedurally-heavy field, but I've had to go and draw labs myself because the nurse wasn't comfortable doing it (even in people with big, beautiful, popping veins) and I couldn't wait for the lab's phlebotomist to take 2 hours to come around (if they even would have ever made it to the patient's room)...

geo123 said:   dshibb said:   I think it's pretty well understood today Derm is the undisputed king of value when it comes to income/lifestyle.

Know someone who got a 99.99%(asterisk) on I believe his USMLE and was told he had his choice of any field he wants and basically every residency program in the country would take him in a heart beat. He picked Derm.
This is actually a good point to consider for people who are envious of MD salaries but who don't know anything about the lifestyles that many of them require. Dermatology is not even close to being the highest paid specialty. There are many, many, many specialties that are compensated way better than dermatology and yet dermatology is ultra-competitive to get into because of the lifestyle that it offers: there is no or virtually no call, drama, etc... In other words, people are willing to forego hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional compensation per year to avoid the lifestyle that's typically required if you go into most other specialties.

Of course! Wouldn't you do the same thing after paying tuition to go through medical school including paying tuition to be worked hard for two years (MS3, MS4) and then being paid peanuts for 3-8 years (in the context of the number of hours you work, the lack of respect with which you are treated, and how disruptive to your life residency is)?

b534202 said:   Wait, they only read images?
That sounds like something that eventually computers can do for you.

Reading images is a large part of what general radiologists do. HOWEVER, in order to do that well, they need to know a LOT. After working with some good radiologists, I have the utmost respect for them because in order to read films properly, they need to know EVERYTHING about everything. Not just what is abnormal on an image (everyone's body is different and those slight or drastic variations can be very difficult to distinguish from pathology), but also what kinds of findings would be associated with what diagnoses/diseases as well as other factors and findings that could affect the treatment regimen. On top of that, every modality of imaging (X-ray, CT, MRI) is completely different (obviously there are bones and other main structures that look similar, but everything else is a crapshoot if you don't know what you're looking at and what you're looking for).

Some radiologists also do procedures (interventional radiology) and that field has a huge scope of practice.

It is quite laughable about how people comment about how good this is and have absolutely no clue what their suggestions entail.

Now I'm not saying that radiologists are not overpaid, but they are definitely a necessity in the hospital. A LOT of medical decisions are made by regular physicians based on what the radiologists tell them that they see. The better the radiologist, the more accurate the read. Outsource to a 3rd world country where the radiologists will have half the training and double the amount of work. Sounds like a great idea.

In the US, we demand the best medical care, but don't want to pay for it.

I also find it funny how the doctors always get blamed for rising healthcare costs when their pay is a very small component of healthcare costs in this country. Doctor pay is dropping and healthcare costs are rising. Doctors (and other health professionals and support staff) should get MOST of the money. If they don't, where is it going? Answer that question and you'll start figuring out how to cut healthcare costs in the US.

And to the person who said "low barrier to entry"? Should I even comment on that?

RedCelicaGT said:   Cool story for the 0.001% of the population who will go into this field. The bottom line - word gets out of a sweet gig, the market gets saturated, and the gravy train is over.

Simple economics indeed.

BEEFjerKAY said:   avalon6 said:   Anesthesiologists get paid the big $$ because they get sued the most if a surgery goes wrong. I don't even know if nurses get paid enough to cover the malpractice insurance.

Perhaps.

But nurses tend to be employees of the hospital.

Whereas anesthesiologists may or may not be hospital employees.

So there would be different malpractice coverage.


I have a real life example when person died right after anesthesia. They get in trouble pretty often.

ajkghemee said:   It is quite laughable about how people comment about how good this is and have absolutely no clue what their suggestions entail.

Now I'm not saying that radiologists are not overpaid, but they are definitely a necessity in the hospital. A LOT of medical decisions are made by regular physicians based on what the radiologists tell them that they see. The better the radiologist, the more accurate the read. Outsource to a 3rd world country where the radiologists will have half the training and double the amount of work. Sounds like a great idea.

In the US, we demand the best medical care, but don't want to pay for it.

I also find it funny how the doctors always get blamed for rising healthcare costs when their pay is a very small component of healthcare costs in this country. Doctor pay is dropping and healthcare costs are rising. Doctors (and other health professionals and support staff) should get MOST of the money. If they don't, where is it going? Answer that question and you'll start figuring out how to cut healthcare costs in the US.

And to the person who said "low barrier to entry"? Should I even comment on that?


It's getting closer to socialism system. USSR had an OK free healthcare, but they had very educated professionals. Doctors were not top paid job in USSR and there was not too much to steal at the job, but still people were doing the job just because the LOVED what they were doing.

We need to fix our healthcare, too much money are being wasted on stupid jobs and pointless investments. I'm not even talking about frauds happening mostly in private practices.

deleted

dshibb said:   I think it's pretty well understood today Derm is the undisputed king of value when it comes to income/lifestyle.

Know someone who got a 99.99%(asterisk) on I believe his USMLE and was told he had his choice of any field he wants and basically every residency program in the country would take him in a heart beat. He picked Derm.

The only other one that they said people that score that high pick is Neuro because even though you don't have a life it's pretty realistic to make over a mil a year. The Derm boys have a life even during residency(45 hours a week during residency while all other residents basically live at the hospital).


You mean neurosurgery and not neuro.

Derm residency is actually 1 year longer then either medicine, family practice, or pediatrics.

Serpentor said:   It's about time. Offshoring/insourcing of radiology work should have whacked their wages a long time ago.

Anesthesiologists should be next in line, any qualified nurse can hook up an IV and monitor heart rate (and many are already doing so).


Not sure if you're trolling, but what do you think happens when the patient crashes? You're not paying anesthesiologists to "monitor" patients, you're paying them to prevent morbidity and mortality in case something goes wrong. But, if you're the type to risk your life to save 1-3 pennies on a dollar (doctor salaries contribute % to healthcare expenditures), then by all means, lobby against the people dedicating their lives to keep yours in tact.

dhodson said:   dshibb said:   I think it's pretty well understood today Derm is the undisputed king of value when it comes to income/lifestyle.

Know someone who got a 99.99%(asterisk) on I believe his USMLE and was told he had his choice of any field he wants and basically every residency program in the country would take him in a heart beat. He picked Derm.

The only other one that they said people that score that high pick is Neuro because even though you don't have a life it's pretty realistic to make over a mil a year. The Derm boys have a life even during residency(45 hours a week during residency while all other residents basically live at the hospital).


You mean neurosurgery and not neuro.

Derm residency is actually 1 year longer then either medicine, family practice, or pediatrics.


That's what I meant. I thought it would be understood that neuro was short for neurosurgery. It's not?

No neuro is a division of medicine

Of all careers, the path to becoming a neurosurgeon is the most ridiculous. You basically have to ace medical school and then do 7 years of residency, where you do 100 hour work weeks for the rest of your career. It takes a special kind of person to go through that.

Neuro is short for neurology.

DrDubious said:   Neuro is short for neurology.

I thought it was short for neuro conservative.

DrDubious said:   Neuro is short for neurology.

Gotcha! I meant neurosurgery.

Yeah so the person I was referring to was offered to walk into any neurosurgery program that had a slot available and he passed and took Derm.

medicine said:   Serpentor said:   It's about time. Offshoring/insourcing of radiology work should have whacked their wages a long time ago.

Anesthesiologists should be next in line, any qualified nurse can hook up an IV and monitor heart rate (and many are already doing so).


Not sure if you're trolling, but what do you think happens when the patient crashes? You're not paying anesthesiologists to "monitor" patients, you're paying them to prevent morbidity and mortality in case something goes wrong. But, if you're the type to risk your life to save 1-3 pennies on a dollar (doctor salaries contribute % to healthcare expenditures), then by all means, lobby against the people dedicating their lives to keep yours in tact.


Doctors account for a lot more thatn 3 %. 9% is just their comp for services rendered. You're forgetting the income they get from facility fees and technical fees, speaking fees, bogus post marketing studies etc (which is NOT counted in the published numbers) and also the enourmous amount of over testing and prescribing they do while they are paid FEE FOR VOLUME which costs all of us and does not save a single life.

DrDubious said:   tolamapS said:   This totally makes sense. Huge economic profits with little barriers to entry means such profits will disappear quickly.

"to promise the best lifestyle for doctors, including the most money for the least grueling work."

Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme. I know it is not that quick, but metaphorically speaking, it is quick compared to what other doctors have to put up to earn their stripes.

IMO, this is excellent news for the general public and the healthcare system.


Not commenting on the rest of your post but to argue "little barriers for entry" lies somewhere on the spectrum including "laughably ignorant" and "clinically insane."


Let's see who is laughing in 5, 10, and 20 years.

I firmly stand by my statement.

tolamapS said:   DrDubious said:   tolamapS said:   This totally makes sense. Huge economic profits with little barriers to entry means such profits will disappear quickly.

"to promise the best lifestyle for doctors, including the most money for the least grueling work."

Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme. I know it is not that quick, but metaphorically speaking, it is quick compared to what other doctors have to put up to earn their stripes.

IMO, this is excellent news for the general public and the healthcare system.


Not commenting on the rest of your post but to argue "little barriers for entry" lies somewhere on the spectrum including "laughably ignorant" and "clinically insane."


Let's see who is laughing in 5, 10, and 20 years.

I firmly stand by my statement.


I'm not saying radiologists' compensation won't go down, or that that field isn't primed for outsourcing (more than any other field in medicine), but in the grand scheme of all rackets ranked by difficulty of getting in, medicine in general and radiology in particular are pretty near the top.

I firmly stand by THAT statement.

Disclosure: Not a radiologist.

GADOM said:   Doctors account for a lot more thatn 3 %. 9% is just their comp for services rendered. You're forgetting the income they get from facility fees and technical fees, speaking fees, bogus post marketing studies etc (which is NOT counted in the published numbers) and also the enourmous amount of over testing and prescribing they do while they are paid FEE FOR VOLUME which costs all of us and does not save a single life.

Most doctors don't own their own facility or get "facility fees." Technical fees, if you mean procedural fees, are included as normal income. Very few doctors get "fee for volume (for drugs or tests)" as you claim. And a very small proportion of doctors participate in speaking events. If you know if any doctors participating in "bogus post marketing studies," if they are truly bogus, you should report them to your state board. If by "bogus post marketing study" you mean "phase 4 trial" then that's an integral part of safety and prescription drugs.

ajkghemee said:   In the US, we demand the best medical care, but don't want to pay for it
we pay the most and get less

medicine said:   GADOM said:   Doctors account for a lot more thatn 3 %. 9% is just their comp for services rendered. You're forgetting the income they get from facility fees and technical fees, speaking fees, bogus post marketing studies etc (which is NOT counted in the published numbers) and also the enourmous amount of over testing and prescribing they do while they are paid FEE FOR VOLUME which costs all of us and does not save a single life.

Most doctors don't own their own facility or get "facility fees." Technical fees, if you mean procedural fees, are included as normal income. Very few doctors get "fee for volume" as you claim. And a very small proportion of doctors participate in speaking events. If you know if any doctors participating in "bogus post marketing studies," if they are truly bogus, you should report them to your state board. If by "bogus post marketing study" you mean "phase 4 trial" then that's an integral part of safety and prescription drugs.


Yea pretty much everything he wrote was inaccurate.

brettdoyle said:   Once the studies are performed they can be sent anywhere in the world using digital radiology. Probably only a matter of time until they are all sent to Indialike you probably know, this trend is almost a decade old. I dont understand how OP's family member did not know before entering medical school, or residency a few years ago.

Skipping 81 Messages...
kingkaga said:   it seems to me that the usa has a shortage of doctors/skilled nurses. and other parts of the world like india/philipines/bermuda/canada do a good good job training these people at much lower costs. why don't we just import more foreign workers?

In absolute numbers, there are more medical doctors in USA than in India. (Keep in mind that the population in India is almost 3 times the population in India).

Most doctors in India are not MDs. It takes them only 6 years after high school to earn their medical degree and very few of them get opportunities to specialize. Several Medical colleges in India are owned by politicians and simply diploma mills.

The enterprising ones do end up in US/UK/Australia to specialize and practice.



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