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Dismissed from a private dental school a few months from graduation
Over $300,000 in student loans
No degree
Looking for advice during this dire time and any options I can pursue

Thanks

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imsparty (Apr. 14, 2013 @ 7:32p) |

Thanks for the update. Not sure what your point is though. All I said was that those aforementioned articles were intere... (more)

Fruitloop123 (Apr. 14, 2013 @ 8:29p) |

Here is problem with OP's version of his predicament:

Graduate schools do not as a rule kick out students. Cheating viola... (more)

IrateConsumer (Apr. 14, 2013 @ 10:46p) |

Original Post:


I've seen similar post on here a while back so I wanted to post my situation (strikingly similar)

I'm 26 years old white male: I want a good life, a family, etc etc. but I am now in an extreme situation.

Attended a Private Dental School w/ high tuition and was kicked out (w/ chance to reapply) due to "unprofessionalism" 4 months before graduation (message me for more details if you can help)
Appealed, final decision - expulsion w/ chance to reapply. I am now stuck w/ ~$300,000 of government student loans w/ no job/degree (BA in chemistry but no DDS)
I believe the school's decision was way to harsh, but at this point all I can do is pray that if I reapply (which will cost a few thousand) in a year I can return and finish
No credit card debt, very little money right now - parents are divorced and cannot support me - I will be living at home in my mom's apartment - Still looking for any sort of income for the time being

OPTIONS:

I am looking for suggestions on what to do - Here are some options I came up w/

1. Most important, find a job (hopefully dental related) get psychologist to help w my emotional problems - Then reapply and pray I can get back in
2. Look into other vocations (I have though of medicine podiatry, pharmacy, chiropractor, or any advanced degree) - Pray they would give me a shot and take the necessary tests - I would love to go to med school, but that would seem out of reach - others, not sure may be easier to gain admittance to.
3. Option 2. would involve me taking out even More Government loans ( would I be eligible) - But at least I would live like a student and not be totally out of money and it would give me a clear path - and I can do Public service loan forgiveness or Income based relief programs after
4. Start a business - I have a very strong idea and my friend said he would invest - Q: Would I be eligible for SBA loans if i write up a business plan even w/ my debt
5. Join army or navy if they would take me - this would count toward public service loan forgiveness and I would be eligible to have my loans wiped away after 10 yrs
6. Find any non profit or public service job (ie cop EMT librarian etc) - work 10 years and public service loan forgiveness again
7. Dental Sales Rep - I am good looking and stand up guy but I am having trouble getting into sales due to my little experience in sales/lack of jobs
8. Leave the country - go to somewhere nice start all over (pretty extreme, but this is an extreme situation)
9. Stock broker (not the best idea)
10. Any chance I can file hardship or bankruptcy in this case


I'm just looking for HELP/ADVICE) Thank you. I really appreciate any other suggestions or comments
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What was your unprofessional act?

....

Loan forgiveness isn't what you think it is. Since the amount forgave is considered income, imagine having to pay 30% of $300,000 all at once, in one year...

Get a job with a non-profit, possibly medical/dental related, and use income-based repayment. Apply to dental school when you're eligible. Be humble and provide examples of how you've changed. If you can't get back in, at least you can fall back on public service loan forgiveness (if they are direct loans) and figure out something else. Best of luck!

swim1208 said:   Was suspected of cheating on an exam - Not accused of actually cheating just looking at other papers - I know I did not cheat though (my cell phone went off during a test which is agains the rules as well- big mistake)
Then had issue w/ infection control (forgot to wear mask a few times etc) and then missed a meeting for me to discuss and was suspended 5 weeks. There were complaints that I was disrespectful b/c when I went to the meeting late the professor though I was rude and it was taken as a sign of disrespect
The final nail in the coffin (which I believe is unfair) was that when I was away for an externship for 5 weeks there were preceptors who failed me, said I did poor work, and said I was unprofessional. Just general blanket statements. They did not express ANY of this during my 5 weeks which I find suspect. Then, I was dismissed

Very unfortunate. 3.5 years invested and so much time money - Just to set it straight, I am a good person w a good heart. I realized I had a tough upbringing and anxiety issues and did not communicate well. Lots of misunderstandings but also lots of gray area. Very unfortunate situation. I am a smart motivated person nonetheless.


If you are being accused of something you did not do, I would consider a lawyer and taking them to court. A judge would put the burden of proof on the school to prove you were cheating...a much higher standard of proof than your standard ad board review.

Well, I've looked into it. Under Income based relief it would be 20-25 years of repayments then I would be taxed on that. And if I made under 40k a year my payments would be $0 per month but then after 20-25 years my 300K w/ capitalization would become ~ 1 million lets say (6-8% interest on my loans) Obviously this is NOT an option

Public Service Loan Forgiveness - Is much better I can work for a non profit 503(c) i think or public service- it is 10 years (120 payments instead) and is NOT taxed.

Obviously this is not what I had in mind - it is my dream to be a dentist - but under these dire circumstances I may have to take advantage of that.

swim1208 said:   I've seen similar post on here a while back so I wanted to post my situation (strikingly similar)

I'm 26 years old white male: I want a good life, a family, etc etc. but I am now in an extreme situation.

Attended a Private Dental School w/ high tuition and was kicked out (w/ chance to reapply) due to "unprofessionalism" 4 months before graduation (message me for more details if you can help)
Appealed, final decision - expulsion w/ chance to reapply. I am now stuck w/ ~$300,000 of government student loans w/ no job/degree (BA in chemistry but no DDS)
I believe the school's decision was way to harsh, but at this point all I can do is pray that if I reapply (which will cost a few thousand) in a year I can return and finish
No credit card debt, very little money right now - parents are divorced and cannot support me - I will be living at home in my mom's apartment - Still looking for any sort of income for the time being

OPTIONS:

I am looking for suggestions on what to do - Here are some options I came up w/

1. Most important, find a job (hopefully dental related) get psychologist to help w my emotional problems - Then reapply and pray I can get back in
2. Look into other vocations (I have though of medicine podiatry, pharmacy, chiropractor, or any advanced degree) - Pray they would give me a shot and take the necessary tests - I would love to go to med school, but that would seem out of reach - others, not sure may be easier to gain admittance to.
3. Option 2. would involve me taking out even More Government loans ( would I be eligible) - But at least I would live like a student and not be totally out of money and it would give me a clear path - and I can do Public service loan forgiveness or Income based relief programs after
4. Start a business - I have a very strong idea and my friend said he would invest - Q: Would I be eligible for SBA loans if i write up a business plan even w/ my debt
5. Join army or navy if they would take me - this would count toward public service loan forgiveness and I would be eligible to have my loans wiped away after 10 yrs
6. Find any non profit or public service job (ie cop EMT librarian etc) - work 10 years and public service loan forgiveness again
7. Dental Sales Rep - I am good looking and stand up guy but I am having trouble getting into sales due to my little experience in sales/lack of jobs
8. Leave the country - go to somewhere nice start all over (pretty extreme, but this is an extreme situation)
9. Stock broker (not the best idea)
10. Any chance I can file hardship or bankruptcy in this case


I'm just looking for HELP/ADVICE) Thank you. I really appreciate any other suggestions or comments


Wow ... interesting situation (sorry that your bad situation is interesting fodder for the forum - but that will generate interest/responses).

First thing: find out when your non-student status will cause your loan payments to start becoming due. You don't want to trash your credit yet by not paying (it may end up being trashed eventually, but better to plan for the best). If you'll need to start paying on loans, you've got to figure out a plan. Can you negotiate payments low enough that they are affordable on whatever job you get while you're figuring out this mess? Can you defer payments due to hardship? If you take a community college course for cheap, can that defer payments?

Can you get a job as a dental assistant, etc? Not sure what they pay, but if it pays decently and keeps you in the field. After some time, the dentist you are working for might write a recommendation letter that might help if you reapply to school (showing that you are making an effort in the field). Find out if it is helpful (sympathy) or hurtful (showing you only care about the money) if in your re-application you should talk about your life being financially ruined with $300k debt and no DDS to show for it.

What about applying to finish at another school (perhaps not prestigious, not even in the USA)? They might be willing to let you finish at their institution just to get the cash.

If getting back into school (either your prior school or another) to finish your DDS is out of the picture, I'd say you have 2 options:

1. Talk to a bankruptcy attorney. $300k student loan is a ridiculous amount to try and pay off with only a BA to show for it. I know typically student loans are not dischargable in BK, but there may be a strange exception (I really have no idea). If your loans were co-signed by a parent, etc find out if the BK will leave them holding the bag. If so, BK on your behalf isn't really a solution to the overall problem.

2. Join the military or other non-profit/government job that will result in loan forgiveness.

I personally don't see any other way you could live a comfortable life while paying off a $300k student loan with just a BA degree.

Good luck to you and please be sure to followup with us on your decisions and how the process goes.

!

US1549 said:   Loan forgiveness isn't what you think it is. Since the amount forgave is considered income, imagine having to pay 30% of $300,000 all at once, in one year...

Better to pay taxes on $300k than the principle and interest. I don't think this changes anything.

!!!!

swim1208 said:   Was suspected of cheating on an exam - Not accused of actually cheating just looking at other papers - I know I did not cheat though (my cell phone went off during a test which is agains the rules as well- big mistake)
Then had issue w/ infection control (forgot to wear mask a few times etc) and then missed a meeting for me to discuss and was suspended 5 weeks. There were complaints that I was disrespectful b/c when I went to the meeting late the professor though I was rude and it was taken as a sign of disrespect
The final nail in the coffin (which I believe is unfair) was that when I was away for an externship for 5 weeks there were preceptors who failed me, said I did poor work, and said I was unprofessional. Just general blanket statements. They did not express ANY of this during my 5 weeks which I find suspect. Then, I was dismissed

Very unfortunate. 3.5 years invested and so much time money - Just to set it straight, I am a good person w a good heart. I realized I had a tough upbringing and anxiety issues and did not communicate well. Lots of misunderstandings but also lots of gray area. Very unfortunate situation. I am a smart motivated person nonetheless.


Thanks for providing the details of your situation. It shows something in your character that you are willing to tell the (I assume) full story. Many people (especially new IDs) will post their situation and provide minimal information. We appreciate that you are sharing the detail.

I'm not sure if in your appeal, you already took responsibility for your actions. But, I'd say it's important in your reapplication that you acknowledge any wrongdoings without casting blame. You'll need to explain how you learned from the entire situation and will take measures to prevent the same situations again:

- Cell phone going off was completely your fault.
- If you understand why they thought you were cheating, acknowledge that. "While I categorically deny cheating, I do understand why Professor X might have thought so since I got up to go to the restroom 5 times during the 1 hour exam. It is an unfortunate set of circumstances, but I do not know how to prove I did NOT do something."
- Acknowledge and take full responsibility for the infection control issues and missed meeting. Talk about how you learned from the situation and what you will do going forward to prevent the same/similar situation.
- Acknowledge and take full responsibility for the disrespect issue. Explain that was not your intent. Talk about how you learned from the situation and what you will do going forward to prevent the same/similar situation.
- Do you have any documentation from the externship that disputes their claims? If not - state your case, that you did not receive feedback consistent with the "post-feedback" during the externship. However, you take their feedback to heart, and you will do x,y,z going forward to ensure the same doesn't happen going forward. It sounds like some of their issues had to do with quality of work.

As I mentioned in a prior post, maybe working as a dental assistant (and getting a positive recommendation from the dentist) will help show that you've overcome the problems they are accusing you of on quality of work and professionalism. Any letters you can get from professors and/or other internships/externships during your schooling could help also.

1

You have a BA in chemistry. Get thee a job!

Apply to several schools, find one that you can finish up the DDS.

Any chance of begging for forgiveness? I mean put your ego aside and really get on your knee (figuratively)

Any chance of getting some kind of neutral mark of dismiss like family hardship, etc so you can reapply at a different school?

Not sure if medical sales as a career was mentioned but you do need certain look and/or personality.

!!!

I'd say army or navy, but I heard they basically have credit requirements now. Are you sure they're all governmental? I thought once you get around the 6 figures mark you needed to take private loans. Really, leaving the country is most likely your best shot.

@@

I want to stay neutral before siding with OP or the School.

But I have heard of far many examples of schools where students are on internships, and such decisions are taken while they are away or based on the "SUBJECTIVE REVIEWS" from internship evaluators, which in some cases can be technicians evaluating students with higher/more education and who are training to become these tech's bosses.

Very Sad ! and Govt and State's Education Board (Board of Higher Education etc) are usually of no help either.

Good Luck OP. You can always deal H&B J/K - try to lighten up and not let it bother you mentally, see a psych doc if you have to, to get through this.

##

Just go on the Doctor Phil show. People like you show up there every day. And he has the answer for EVERYTHING.

why do you say that med school is out of reach? If you prefer to stay in healthcare, then physician assistant isn't a bad choice, and it is pretty quick (2 years). Don't feel too bad...most recent DDS graduates that I know of personally are unemployed!

Sue. The potential for the school to be tied up in long and expensive litigation may push them to settle quickly.

If I were you I'd definitely contact some out of country schools (Caribbean, South America, etc) and see if you can transfer/finish your DDS there. Frankly, with some bribery money, they might just take you. I'm not sure what you'd need to do back here in the US in order to practice (you said you already passed your boards), but I know there are plenty of Drs/Dentists practicing here in the states with foreign degrees.

I think you can still have a successful practice without a prestigious degree.

BTW, I wouldn't go to the news/media about this. You don't want a future employer (or patient if you get this all worked out) to google your name and come up with all the reasons why you were expelled from Dental school. Some people might sympathize, but still wouldn't want to take the risk of hiring you or choosing you as their dentist when there are other options out there.

misterspaghetti said:   Get a job with a non-profit, possibly medical/dental related, and use income-based repayment. Apply to dental school when you're eligible. Be humble and provide examples of how you've changed. If you can't get back in, at least you can fall back on public service loan forgiveness (if they are direct loans) and figure out something else. Best of luck!

This. Only now-a-days, "pay as you earn" is a wee bit better if you can get it (may have to consolidate to make your loans direct).

Oops. Double-post.

Take as many loans as you can get. Accumulate cash. Move overseas to Malaysia or Indonesia some other 2nd-world place. Ply your med degree and almost-DDS to a medical-related job or position with an NGO or non-profit. Live well and don't look back.

Or live your life as a debt slave. Your choice.

##

Here's a career path thought (no idea on feasibility):

What about becoming a dental practice consultant? Obviously it will be hard to break out on your own at first (who would trust a "consultant" who never actually had a practice or has successfully consulted)? I'd bet there are businesses out there that already consult with Dentists on how to maximize profitability in their practices (scheduling, promoting particular products, marketing tactics, etc). If you do a few years working for an established firm, you could then break out on your own. I'd bet you'd make a ton of money (maybe more than being an actual Dentist).

A buddy of mine is looking at doing this with his eye-doctor friend (targeting eye Dr practices, obviously). He said the money looks like it could be really good.

Based on your post, I'd suggest the therapy first and foremost.

OP: might I recommend that you quote whomever you are replying to so it's a little easier to follow?

Sure

The first rule of dental school is to play the game, fly under the radar and just get through. Most people do not think fondly of their professors in dental school.

Your best bet is to get back into school. Beg the dean and if you get in, be your professors' punching bag.
Second is to get a dental sales position. Sell implant parts. My buddy is my supply rep and he makes 6 figures.
No one in the world would hire a you as a dental consultant b/c 1. no dental degree and 2. even with a dental degree, your dental degree means nothing in the real world running a business so don't even think about that option.
Option 4 is to find a rich old sugar momma.

I think that most of us tend to see ourselves as good people, but try it through another set of eyes.

The thing is, if things happened once, it might be coincidental. Twice, maybe it's another coincidence. But five things (and some occurred multiple times; forgot to wear the masks a few times)? See a common denominator?

This is my broad stroke suggestion, based on your story: examine your attitude and find people who are willing to tell you the truth. Try not to be defensive, but really listen to what people are trying to tell you, starting with your professors.

%%

ingenue007 said:   
No one in the world would hire a you as a dental consultant b/c 1. no dental degree and 2. even with a dental degree, your dental degree means nothing in the real world running a business so don't even think about that option.


Thanks for the input. I wasn't sure if consulting firms would only hire someone who has run their own dental practice, or it was a skill that could be learned while hired as a "Jr. Consultant" until he gains enough street cred. I figured might be worth a shot at using some of the education he's already had.

$300K loans to become a dentist was the most ridiculous decision you took.

I don't want to be treated by a dentist who is under pressure to repay $300K in student loans.

Good luck.

$300k in debt at 26, and nothing to show for it... Good luck dude.

ingenue007 said:   The first rule of dental school is to play the game, fly under the radar and just get through. Most people do not think fondly of their professors in dental school.

Your best bet is to get back into school. Beg the dean and if you get in, be your professors' punching bag.
Second is to get a dental sales position. Sell implant parts. My buddy is my supply rep and he makes 6 figures.
No one in the world would hire a you as a dental consultant b/c 1. no dental degree and 2. even with a dental degree, your dental degree means nothing in the real world running a business so don't even think about that option.
Option 4 is to find a rich old sugar momma.


American Medical Education. Producing Mediocre Professionals since I don't know when.

Skipping 172 Messages...
Here is problem with OP's version of his predicament:

Graduate schools do not as a rule kick out students. Cheating violates graduate schools rules of professional responsibility and ethics regulations and this is grounds for dismissal. Violence and threats towards another student, teacher or faculty member are grounds for dismissal.

The wearing or not wearing of a mask - may have a great deal of significance in dental school. However, I doubt if - one non-wearing mask transgression - would be a cause for expulsion.

Either the OP has had even more problems than listed or the significance of the transgressions was vastly underplayed in the OP's post.

LIke others before me, I suspect the OP has a mental illness. If I were to venture to guess from his posts - I'd wager he has a narcassistic personality with sociopathic tendencies. My initial suspicion was Bipolar Disorder (Bipolar I) - due to the OP's compusivity. Either way this is serious if the OP is 26 years old - and causing this type of irresponsible harm to himself.

OP, if you do have a mental illness, please seek treatment. It takes a great deal of concerted effort to almost get through dental school - then to get summarily kicked out - so close to graduation.

It is my belief that the character flaws you've outlined in this thread will resurface again and again in any other endeavor you start on.



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