Financial acumen in a spouse

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I'm looking for historical experiences of members and maybe what they've seen in people around them too.

Specifically, I'm looking for experiences on the financial aspect with a spouse:
1. Should both people already be aligned prior to marriage on their approach to finances/saving/etc.? Did this turn into a bigger issue later on for those who did not address it before marriage?
2. Has anyone successfully helped a spouse improve their situation, or is that normally a lost cause? (Teaching them to save, etc.)

My specific situation: I've been seeing a girl who is very different from me - decisions are really based on emotion rather than fact.

Her: 30 years old and earns 40k, has 25k of debt on a new car, no retirement, no real savings, etc. and essentially lives paycheck to paycheck. She didn't have health insurance until I made it a priority, and I'm not sure she truly grasps the benefit of it. (She raised her deductible to 7500 from 5000 the other day to "save money" when in reality she doesn't even have savings to cover the $5,000 level)

Me: 25 and make > 65k, no debt, and have a net worth of ~100k with 50k liquid including retirement, savings accounts, brokerage accounts, HSA, etc. I live with a roommate, maximize CC deals, etc.

My approach is that if I know I want to have a family, I know major expenditures will likely include a home ($50k down payment), college expenses for the kids ($100k each in today's dollars), etc. It's much easier for me to save money now than later in life, and it provides me a lot of flexibility later in life. She has 5 years on me of time and I don't think she's ever been around people like me before, so it hasn't ever (and still isn't) been a priority to have finances in order or even plan for the future. (She's often been in a sales environment and I'm 99% confident her coworkers haven't ever even opened a retirement account - the impression I have is that they all live in the present searching for short term excitement)

I've spoken to some coworkers and it seems like the spouses who did have a habit of saving a bit were taught to do so from an early age.

I'm debating if it's worth pursuing with her given the big difference in our situation. I know that I would never marry her unless we had the finances figured out and an already established track record on her part. Any changes on this aspect need to happen far in advance - I'm certain of that. The challenge is knowing if I should put in 2-3 years and take it 1 step at a time to help her. This might mean getting her to open a 401k and start by putting $50/month in it, then getting her to ramp it up after a year or so of creating a habit. The real issue is that I don't think she feels a desire to figure this out at all, and so any effort on my part is not benefiting her life today, and future problems are not visible today. ("Why would I need to save for retirement? I like my work and plan to keep working")

Update: Since the posting of this, we've left each other. There is more information here: http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1271482/m17739409/#m1773...

I have responded individually to a number of people in this thread, however didn't get to everyone, but don't hesitate to PM me if you wanted to discuss something specifically.

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I see what you're saying. Your fiancee already had good principles and stayed far away from CC trouble. They don't have ... (more)

historystudy (May. 11, 2013 @ 11:31a) |

That is the crux of the issue that would probably arise in the future - my goals are very different from her in life and... (more)

historystudy (May. 11, 2013 @ 11:34a) |

I think it was the opposite for me and her. I took an interest in her activities, but definitely not the other way aroun... (more)

historystudy (May. 11, 2013 @ 11:35a) |

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My sense is that you know you are going to work hard and she is not (at money, the relationship, family). If she is still hot, what are you going to do when she is not? Then it's just you and this person who you have nothing in common with, and whom you probably have loaned a few thousand dollars to. (sorry for me being rude - I do think this is a pretty cool topic though)

BNizzle said:   My sense is that you know you are going to work hard and she is not (at money, the relationship, family). If she is still hot, what are you going to do when she is not? Then it's just you and this person who you have nothing in common with, and whom you probably have loaned a few thousand dollars to. (sorry for me being rude - I do think this is a pretty cool topic though)
Well, I'm open to admitting she's out of my league. I think we share a bit in common because of our similar heritage from the other side of the world, but that isn't something specific to only her. So to answer you... yes, I actually always feel like I'd be working hard to support the family and my constant impression is that she's going to spend it before it even gets deposited in the bank account. Her car purchase a year ago was a $30k Jeep and I really can't fathom how it's affordable at this point for her - with an unfunded retirement, no health insurance, etc., a premium car shouldn't even be on the list.

You're right though - given time, I'd be left with someone who I didn't get along with and that spent the money I was probably piecing together so I could have flexibility in my life. (I'd like to someday own entire businesses rather than just pieces of them in the public markets, and so I could easily see myself building up a $2-3M reserve)

historystudy said:   I'm debating if it's worth pursuing with her given the big difference in our situation. I know that I would never marry her unless we had the finances figured out and an already established track record on her part. Any changes on this aspect need to happen far in advance - I'm certain of that. The challenge is knowing if I should put in 2-3 years and take it 1 step at a time to help her. This might mean getting her to open a 401k and start by putting $50/month in it, then getting her to ramp it up after a year or so of creating a habit. The real issue is that I don't think she feels a desire to figure this out at all, and so any effort on my part is not benefiting her life today, and future problems are not visible today. ("Why would I need to save for retirement? I like my work and plan to keep working")
Here's the bottom line question - are you expecting her to become like you? If so, then yes, you need to walk away. An "I'm right and you are wrong" and "I'm going to fix your irresponsibility" attitude isnt going to work. I'd hope she's the one who wouldnt put up with it for long.

You know what you are getting and have to accept the fact that you are going to be picking up (what you consider to be) the slack for both of you, for the relationship to have any chance of being serious. Of course, she needs to be just as accepting of your differences as well. That mutual acceptance is what makes for a strong long-lasting relationship.

Glitch99 said:   historystudy said:   I'm debating if it's worth pursuing with her given the big difference in our situation. I know that I would never marry her unless we had the finances figured out and an already established track record on her part. Any changes on this aspect need to happen far in advance - I'm certain of that. The challenge is knowing if I should put in 2-3 years and take it 1 step at a time to help her. This might mean getting her to open a 401k and start by putting $50/month in it, then getting her to ramp it up after a year or so of creating a habit. The real issue is that I don't think she feels a desire to figure this out at all, and so any effort on my part is not benefiting her life today, and future problems are not visible today. ("Why would I need to save for retirement? I like my work and plan to keep working")
Here's the bottom line question - are you expecting her to become like you? If so, then yes, you need to walk away. An "I'm right and you are wrong" and "I'm going to fix your irresponsibility" attitude isnt going to work. I'd hope she's the one who wouldnt put up with it for long.

You know what you are getting and have to accept the fact that you are going to be picking up (what you consider to be) the slack for both of you, for the relationship to have any chance of being serious. Of course, she needs to be just as accepting of your differences as well. That mutual acceptance is what makes for a strong long-lasting relationship.

Well... you hit the nail on the head. When it comes to saving for the future, that is exactly my attitude, and I was afraid of posting here in case too many agreed with it, so thank you for providing input that ought to be given.

I think I've experienced this before, because my gut is to argue on fact. "How am I wrong about the finances?" is probably where I'd argue, and I have no doubt I could "prove" the other person wrong. That doesn't work with getting people to change though.

Regarding being accepting of differences... how does that work in a marriage? A decision ultimately has to be made. If a kid we have wants to go to out of state schooling for $40-$50k/year, and the wife's emotions kick in and support it, but I'm here saying "no, go in state, it's just undergrad, etc.", how do we have mutual respect? The wife may say she doesn't need money either, just support to cosign the loan with.

At some point, shouldn't both people be on the same page? Or am I really that far off from understanding how relationships work?

FWIW: I don't expect her to be just like me... but to have some idea what she needs to save for retirement, etc. would make my life a lot easier.

Pics?

What's more important is how strongly she holds her view that money is for spending. My husband has little to no involvement in the household finances, but he happily adjusts to live within budgets I set (cars, house, monthly spending), trusting me to plan for the future. I check in with him and let him know what I'm doing and we discuss mutual goals, and I do the financial planning to achieve those goals. And he occasionally will buy into a credit card deal for me.

If you pursue the relationship, it's a good idea to live with this person before marriage.

asian?historystudy said:   BNizzle said:   My sense is that you know you are going to work hard and she is not (at money, the relationship, family). If she is still hot, what are you going to do when she is not? Then it's just you and this person who you have nothing in common with, and whom you probably have loaned a few thousand dollars to. (sorry for me being rude - I do think this is a pretty cool topic though)
Well, I'm open to admitting she's out of my league. I think we share a bit in common because of our similar heritage from the other side of the world, but that isn't something specific to only her. So to answer you... yes, I actually always feel like I'd be working hard to support the family and my constant impression is that she's going to spend it before it even gets deposited in the bank account. Her car purchase a year ago was a $30k Jeep and I really can't fathom how it's affordable at this point for her - with an unfunded retirement, no health insurance, etc., a premium car shouldn't even be on the list.

You're right though - given time, I'd be left with someone who I didn't get along with and that spent the money I was probably piecing together so I could have flexibility in my life. (I'd like to someday own entire businesses rather than just pieces of them in the public markets, and so I could easily see myself building up a $2-3M reserve)

The question is not about her financial situation. The question is do you have the same life priorities?
Anyone can change,but the key is wanting too. Some people just are not that savvy but love the results. and that works in a couple (one does the work, the other one complies, both reap the benefits). You want a family , a stable financial situation, you are willing to make sacrifices.
She seems to be living in the the "now" not caring about the future. It is easier to do if you are facing a mountain of debt with no savings.

Either she was raised with no examples of how to behave financially responsibly, but can learn and wants to learn OR she thinks everything is good in the neighborhood and will at some point think you are driving her crazy with all your demands to not spend money, and how can you not appreciate the beauty of these $2400 jimmy choo that are "collector"??!

3rd option: built a life with her, but don't share finances. have separate bank accounts, most importantly spending accounts etc.. and don't give in on loaning her spending money or giving her "gifts" for no reason when she asks. It sounds pretty lame as a way of life, but sometimes it is the only way if you really think it is the one (plus you prevent yourself from a lot of trouble if it does not work out). It makes it difficult to share life goals..

Now all 3 are pretty much cliché of what you would read on FTW..
Last option is: she makes 40K, which depending on where you live, on a single income, living on your own, is really not much (if you are in a major city) especially with student loan. She could simply sucks at buying a car (i know quite a few 30yr old ladies like that that got intimidated by the car salesman and regretted their purchases..), but if she gets on the right track she might be a lot better at this than you expect her to be.
It is a lot easier to save on a 65K salary than on a 40K. The key is knowing if she is the kind that would triple her expenses from a recent raise, or keep a similar life style and start getting things in check. Ask her.. what would you if you got $1000 monthly raise? that might give you an idea...

Now if you are asking your perfect lady to be as extreme as you (65K, with a roomate and hard core savings) then walk away now. You are going to drive each other insane.. Most people making 65K in a regular cost city don't have a roomate unless they want one. It is unreasonnable to ask someone to be like that. We probably all understand around here but it is kind of asking someone to become OCD. She has her right to living what you consider an irresponsible lifestyle.

As far as being on the same page: yes that is the key.. But being on the same page does not mean her being just like you. it can also mean her happily staying within the financial guidelines you set together. But let's be honest, I am quite similar to you, (though I am the woman in this case) and hubby while not being as obssessive, was already living the FTW way. that has made our marriage A LOT easier.. Generally speaking , we want the same things. THAT is the key, it keeps the balance. Doesn't really matter how it happens.

historystudy said:   
Her: 30 years old and earns 40k, has 25k of debt on a new car, no retirement, no real savings, etc. and essentially lives paycheck to paycheck...Well, I'm open to admitting she's out of my league.


A close friend married her twin right after she graduated from college.
He was much happier after he divorced her.

He had to borrow money the first time he filed a MFJ return, because she grossly under withheld in order to maximize current spending. So he started withholding enough to be paying 3/4 of the income tax when their incomes were basically identical.
He started contributing 25% to his 403b because she wouldn't put a penny in her 401k, even for her 100% match on the first 6%.
He had been a bit of a spender himself, but he learned to be quite frugal to keep his head above water while living with her.

They broke up when he found out she was unfaithful, probably would have stayed together quite a long time if not for that.


Result:
When he threw her out, he didn't see how he could possibly keep the house on one income. He soon found out he had more money when half the household income and the majority of the spending was gone. Not only did he keep the house, within a year he'd paid his debt to her for half the house equity, paid his attorney bills, and paid cash for a $4,000 toy (in 1990 dollars) he'd always wanted. Then a couple of years later he married another woman whose spending habits were more normal. He's still with wife #2. The frugality he learned to cope with #1 allowed him to maintain a decent standard of living when #2 had to retire early.

She's older and a financial wreck, so why are you still interested in here? Either she's hot, or you're happy to have someone, anyone, interested in you. Ok. You're not going to change her, so accept that now. You don't have to marry her -- marriage is increasingly becoming an antiquated device in these modern times. If you have children with her, you will love them and care for them just as much whether the two of you are married or not. If the partnership ends, it will be so much less messy if you were never married. And given the mismatch in financial acument, it WILL be messy. So do the smart thing, co-habitate without complicating it with "marriage". (YMMV in states with common law marriages)

The bottom line is that you two must have the same priorities, as well as the same desire and understanding of what it takes to achieve them.

Oh, and, she has to feel like you're not trying to control her -- otherwise there will be all kinds of resentment issues.

You should have a serious talk with her and see what her attitude towards certain things is. Does she really 'want' a new car even if she has to finance it or was she just doing it because 'everybody else' is ? How does she see money ? Would she be ok if you take care of the larger financial decisions ?

My wife is not a big spender by any means but she likes to be able to buy something when she sees it. She is not that interested in our finances and trusts me fully to take care of all the credit cards, house, cars etc. On the flip side I don't care what she spends money on, if she buys 4 pairs of new shoes in one order so be it. She does not enjoy shopping much though so it is not a regular event.

What I am trying to say is try to agree on the larger picture but leave her enough leeway to be happy. If you only buy 1 pair of shoes every 2 years and she likes 10 pars per year as long as this does not impact the big picture too much then don't sweat it. If she does not agree on the bigger picture and you can figure out that it is not ignorance alone that brought her into debt then I would be very reluctant to get married.

My only issue I have is that I need to plan for my wife in case I have an accident. She would have a hard time with investments and also we have a lot of (no usage) credit cards for sign up bonuses and she might use an old one and forget to pay it. I am trying to work out a system that is close to fully automatic and relative simple.

Have a serious talk about this but include all topics and especially the ones that she cares about. Maybe she wants 2 children and you want 5 etc. Finances is an important topic and one (I read a couple articles the most) of the most important reasons to get divorced.

Don't Deny past results.

The idea of marriage isn't one where one person explains his superior position, and she goes along. Instead, the couple should set aside an hour for talk. With plans for many more.

Really ask her what her financial goals are. And actually listen. You will hopefully get the chance to share yours as well but listening is the first step. Once both of you have explained what your goals are, see how to mesh them. Then, and only then, will you be ready to discuss the means to get there. And get there jointly

qcumber98 said:   Pics?

Sigh. I hate to admit, but I was thinking along the same lines. I'm not proud to admit it, but whenever I hear that a woman in a relationship is this bad at managing finances, I assume she's very attractive.

Some people live spontaneously in the moment. Others carefully plan for the future. There's no right or wrong answer. But you're not going to change her and she's not going to change you. If it was me; this would be a deal-breaker.

do178b said:   Some people live spontaneously in the moment. Others carefully plan for the future. There's no right or wrong answer. But you're not going to change her and she's not going to change you. If it was me; this would be a deal-breaker.
I think this is a little too harsh. My wife was never a saver before (but also had no debt) and did not even understand where her money went to. She still does not care much but we are doing very well and are both happy. I manage the money and larger expenses (we discuss all purchases though beforehand) and she can buy what she likes within limits.
I would first try to understand what the deal is with her, compulsive spender vs. just not understanding money.

historystudy said:   

Specifically, I'm looking for experiences on the financial aspect with a spouse:
1. Should both people already be aligned prior to marriage on their approach to finances/saving/etc.? Did this turn into a bigger issue later on for those who did not address it before marriage?
2. Has anyone successfully helped a spouse improve their situation, or is that normally a lost cause? (Teaching them to save, etc.)



OP having been married 13 years and knowing quite a number of other married and divorced couples I was say that disagreements over money are one of the biggest issues in a marriage probably in the top 3. To your point one folks don't have to be perfectly aligned on their approaches to finance but there has to be a middle ground that is satisfactory to both. My wife and I agree on the major financial aspects of our lives and once those are funded we are free to spend the rest of our money as we choose. To point 2 folks can change but it has to come from within. Sometimes and external party can be a catalyst but the drive to make a change has to come from within. There is no other way around that. I suggest you talk it through with your girlfriend and see if she perhaps is interested in changing, if not I personally would not get married as huge differences in the approach to finances it a major deal breaker for me.

b0mbrman said:   
Sigh. I hate to admit, but I was thinking along the same lines. I'm not proud to admit it, but whenever I hear that a woman in a relationship is this bad at managing finances, I assume she's very attractive.


I would not make that assumption, my brother's ex-wife who is a huge spendthrift is far from attractive physically, personality-wise nor is she particularly intelligent. God knows why he married her, my dad warned him that money issues would destroy the marriage, and it did. My brother has been slowly digging himself out the hole that he made.

It's not enough to badger her into opening a retirement account and make a token contribution.

If she doesn't see the value and necessity of doing so then she'll probably revert back to her old ways.

Long/short of it: This one is going to end in misery for you

Marrying, not to mention marrying an older woman, is not advisable, but the way she raised her deductible without consulting with you and deferring to your judgement leaves little hope.

I will probably get flamed for this, but whatever: financials aside, you should avoid marrying an older woman. You seem like you're a reasonable person with a good head on his shoulders, and she seems like she may have found someone gullible enough to take her over while most of her sexual value has been depreciated. Just a thought.

DO NOT MAKE BABY!

That is all.

haven't read the rest of the responses, but i vote for dumping her now OR not getting her too involved in your future. if you're going to date/marry an older woman, you want an upgrade on the women your age, not a ticking time bomb.

you didn't mention CC debt, does she have any? have you verified that by cking her current CRs?

I don't think the issue is that she's an "older woman" (she's 30 years old, good grief, some of you are reacting like she's Betty White) but that OP is a younger man. At 25 you are still a pup. Don't tie yourself down just yet. Don't worry about this too much. Keep your finances 100% separate (no cosigning, no joint debt or property ownership) and see how things go. A LOT can happen in 2-3 years.

Definitely discuss this as much as possible BEFORE getting married. Be careful not to come across as believing your approach to money is right and hers is wrong. Frame the discussion in terms of life goals, she'll be able to attach saving money to something she wants (house, kids, retirement). Help her see that there's a trade off for everything she buys. Yes, you can get a new car every 2 years, but if you buy a used car every 5 years we'll be able to save x, which, invested over time should boost our retirement fund by y. Financial disagreement is the #1 cause of divorce...if you can't talk about it now, you won't be able to work through it later.

historystudy said:   My specific situation: I've been seeing a girl who is very different from me - decisions are really based on emotion rather than fact.Question: Would she agree with this assessment, or be offended by it? If the latter, I only see more disagreement ahead.

My wife was a financial train wreck. Overdrafted all the time, no idea how to manage her credit score, couldn't get a credit card or car loan etc etc but pretty much zero debt. We worked on it a couple pieces at a time, credit score first and bank balances second. Made her budget for each month and follow up on it. We talked about money from a priority of spending it format, picking the most important things and leaving some room for fun. We fought a few times over it. Now she has a higher credit score than I do (not sure how), has done a couple app-o-rama, no issues with the bank, and controls her spending pretty well. It was critical for her not just for our relationship but for her career as a minister she really had to learn to micromanage small finances. The only really hard part is her family, they are always financially screwed and constantly spending whatever they have on things they don't need then barely making rent. We agreed to put aside $1300 (at the time the highest rent any in-law had) to loan out. We would loan out only what got paid back. Smartest decision ever, now when they ask for money we can just say we agreed to loan, it never got paid back, and now we have no more money to loan. $1300 probably got us off on the cheap side too.

Ok, and in the girlfriend's defense, please keep in mind that many people don't get their act together until slightly later in life. 30 is nothing. Some people start saving, or being more careful with their money, when there is something grander that they want. I look back at the way that I used to drop money on absolute garbage, and laugh. That was only 3-4 years ago. Now, I'm working towards bigger goals, and that's caused me to tighten the belt a bit.

Oh yeah, and ain't nothing wrong with older women!

satchelsofgold said:   I don't think the issue is that she's an "older woman" (she's 30 years old, good grief, some of you are reacting like she's Betty White)
This....

satchelsofgold said:   I don't think the issue is that she's an "older woman" (she's 30 years old, good grief, some of you are reacting like she's Betty White) but that OP is a younger man. At 25 you are still a pup. Don't tie yourself down just yet. Don't worry about this too much. Keep your finances 100% separate (no cosigning, no joint debt or property ownership) and see how things go. A LOT can happen in 2-3 years.

In all seriousness the biological clock is ticking though. We rolled the dice at 34 and are lucky so far no issues with the baby due in a month. Friends of ours that were almost 40 not so lucky. Wife is 3 years older than me, unless one of you wants to die alone you want to be on the younger side by a few years. Plenty of time shagging freshmen when I was in college.

Don't do it. No matter how many years later, any changes will be minor. Didn't work for me or any others I know. Do not expect or try to change a spouse. You'll both be disappointed.

Yeah, she is not even close to a financial wreck and I'm surprised everyone is saying she's completely hopeless. 30 is not even close to a hopelessness stage, and the OP just doesn't seem to realize how far ahead he is. If you think this is damaged goods, look at girls your own age who probably have $30,000 in student loans, $8000 on credit cards, and no job.

CptSavAHo said:   My wife was a financial train wreck. Overdrafted all the time, no idea how to manage her credit score, couldn't get a credit card or car loan etc etc but pretty much zero debt. We worked on it a couple pieces at a time, credit score first and bank balances second. Made her budget for each month and follow up on it. We talked about money from a priority of spending it format, picking the most important things and leaving some room for fun. We fought a few times over it. Now she has a higher credit score than I do (not sure how), has done a couple app-o-rama, no issues with the bank, and controls her spending pretty well. It was critical for her not just for our relationship but for her career as a minister she really had to learn to micromanage small finances. The only really hard part is her family, they are always financially screwed and constantly spending whatever they have on things they don't need then barely making rent. We agreed to put aside $1300 (at the time the highest rent any in-law had) to loan out. We would loan out only what got paid back. Smartest decision ever, now when they ask for money we can just say we agreed to loan, it never got paid back, and now we have no more money to loan. $1300 probably got us off on the cheap side too.

Captain Save-a-Ho, your wife is a MINISTER? You must have saved her something serious!

Most divorces are due to money problems.

harruin said:   Yeah, she is not even close to a financial wreck and I'm surprised everyone is saying she's completely hopeless. 30 is not even close to a hopelessness stage, and the OP just doesn't seem to realize how far ahead he is. If you think this is damaged goods, look at girls your own age who probably have $30,000 in student loans, $8000 on credit cards, and no job.

There's nothing wrong with wanting someone who is also ahead, though it will reduce the number of long term candidates.

Do you live with roommates because it's a wise financial choice, or because you don't mind living with someone else (or enjoy being around other people). If you're the type to deal with a less than ideal roommate because it's a good financial decision, I'd guess you'll start resenting her for her financials long before she starts fixing them.

I agree with most others here, you should have several long talks about your goals in life, and how you see yourself reaching those goals financially. If she feels it will 'work out' eventually, or that the goals are not 'that' important, or that she's planning on accomplishing all of them half-assedly by not properly saving and trying to scrip through, these would all be telling signs.

Can she change? maybe, but if you want to find out I'd set some roadmarks for yourself as to what changes you expect to see and how quickly, and plan how you can help her see the value in those changes. If the relationships great otherwise spending a year to see if she can start saving and working her way out of debt isn't a bad thing. Ultimately, consider if you would regret the time you stayed together trying to make it work, and if not then try and work through it, just make sure you don't loose sight of your goals or get ahead of yourself in where the relationship is heading. If you feel you'd regret the time, then she probably isn't that amazing to be around anyways and you should move on. It's all about opportunity cost.

Skipping 38 Messages...
vaderzak said:   okashiraaa said:   Females, especially one that is infatuated with you, can be suprisingly open to significant change; they just don't know it.

In my experience, having a sit down talk is counterproductive, just drop subtle hints regularly about your lifestyle. Bring it up casually on a regular basis, but don't do it like a douche. If she really listens to you, before you know it, she will be picking up on your lifestyle.



Expanding on this, it's my understanding that women like to take an interest in their man's hobbies. If you do go the hinting route, it may be possible to open up your finances and involve her in how you make your decisions, so that you teach her using yourself as an example rather than her. This allows you to point out what you do right and why it's right without the focus being on her and what she's doing wrong. As an example, if you included her in your decision to change your insurance deductible you could talk about why that is the best choice. This also allows you to see how defensive she may be about her own preconceptions. If she doesn't believe/agree with you and refuses to give in when explaining your financials, what hope can their be when looking at hers where she may take it as an attack. Also, if she see's your financials and how well you're doing and you can show her it's because of wise spending she may be able to see the opportunities this would open for her, and may want you to teach her more, i know I would.

I think it was the opposite for me and her. I took an interest in her activities, but definitely not the other way around.



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