First used car purchase

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So, back in this thread I asked a few questions about buying a new vehicle versus a used one, particularly when considering lower-tier models. Specifically, I'm looking to get a Toyota Tacoma (base package) preferably with a manual transmission. Nothing fancy, just something that I can use to scoot around town with and haul the occasional stuff.

So, I've found a model that's local, used, low mileage and meets the criteria for the package I'm looking for. The only hangup I have now is price.

The model in question is a 2010 base trim with manual transmission and approximately 22k miles on it. The dealer is asking $14,988 (call it $15k) but I'm sure that I could get away with less. The question is: how much less? I can get a brand new model through PenFed's car buying service for just over $16k, so there must be some wiggle room here.

I've already done some legwork regarding price research:
  • BlackBook lists trade-in value at between $8,600-$12,000


  • KBB recommends $13,800 for private sale and $15,780 for dealer sale


  • Edmunds recommends $13,400 for private sale and $14,500 for dealer sale

The price they're asking seems to be in line with "recommended" pricing, and comparable sales in the area seem to align with this as well. I'm thinking I'd like to pay no more than $12,750 which is about 85% of what they're asking, but this number is pretty arbitrary - I have no history of buying used cars, and have no "feel" for the intrinsic value of a vehicle.

So, the question: Does this sound like a "fair" target price? I know the worst they can do is say "no" but let's be honest - I wouldn't be going down this road if I didn't actually want to get to the other side with a new (to me) vehicle without overpaying.

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RedCelicaGT (May. 12, 2013 @ 2:08a) |

I'll chime in as truck owner. Our family had a '97 S-10 V6 bought new over kept it 8 years got rid of it in great runnin... (more)

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But it WILL hold four bodies comfortably with no one knowing!!

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First off too bad crown vics don't come in truck form or manual transmission

2nd don't buy a 2 year old used from a dealer for a 2 k difference. Autos lose 20% of value just driving off the lot and you are looking for a 3 year old car with a 15%? Get new or find a new dealer.

3rd I use nada guides over KBB

4th they will never give you that price if they are a toyota dealer or on your first visit. That car has to sit for a month before they give in on 2000 discount

New model for 16k, while a 3 year old model is 15k?

I would skip all the BS if the difference is that small, trying to get dealers to lower their price on a trade-in is like pulling teeth. You would have better luck just grabbing the truck straight from auction.

Not sure if this is relevant to you, but in my area some of the "nicer" makes like hondas, toyotas, and subarus tend to go for the higher end of the used pricing. In the past i've ended up having to cross state lines to get decent pricing on a used car. So take a look at pricing for other tocomas and tundras in similar condition and see if that is just the going rate for the area of if this dealer is high.

forbin4040 said:   Autos lose 20% of value just driving off the lot and you are looking for a 3 year old car with a 15%? Get new or find a new dealer.

What would you consider a fair price in this case? That's really what I'm trying to determine, even if they're not willing to meet it.



DaGimp said:   New model for 16k, while a 3 year old model is 15k?

In neither case would I expect to actually pay that amount, but I would assume that the potential discount achieved through haggling would be greater in the case of a used vehicle than new. That being said, I am curious to see what the actual difference between the two would be. Even if I could get the used for, say, $12k and the new for $14k, then sure - it might still make sense to go for the new instead.



releasefoobar said:   So take a look at pricing for other tocomas and tundras in similar condition and see if that is just the going rate for the area of if this dealer is high.

I've been looking for a while now at models within a 200mi radius, and from what I've seen their asking price seems to be in line with what others are asking, given the model year and mileage currently on it. So, their asking price is "fair" insofar as it isn't an outlier, but what I'm really interested in is how much below their asking price I might conceivably be able to achieve.

I guess I'm looking for nuggets of wisdom like "You want to offer how much? No way, the rule of thumb is X%" or somesuch. If I make an offer, I don't want it to be so high that I'm leaving money on the table, nor so low that I get dismissed out of hand.

Sounds like you WANT this used truck. Dealers can smell that and will not haggle down more than$500

forbin4040 said:   Sounds like you WANT this used truck. Dealers can smell that and will not haggle down more than$500


Well, sure. I'm not just walking down the road with money to burn and saying "Well, guess I'll buy a vehicle". I'm definitely in the market for one - not necessarilly this one, though it does match what I'm looking for and is conveniently located. For what it's worth, I haven't had any contact with the dealer yet, I've only seen their website posting.

I'm trying to remain as dispassionate about the whole ordeal as I can, but in order to do that I at least need an understanding of what sort of pricing process I should expect.

If the truck you're looking at is in high demand in your area and at this time of year, they will probably only come down $500-$1000 (if you're lucky and use their financing). If it is a Toyota dealer you're dealing with, it's doubtful they'll come down at all cause they know it'll sell if they let it sit there a month or so.

I bought a used Hyundai Sonata a few years ago and couldn't get anyone in town to budge on the price, and there were no new used ones coming on the market, so I had to pay close to full used sticker price, which I was still happy with based on my situation at the time. But there isn't just a strict "you shoudln't pay more than 85% of the dealer price...." or some such rule, especially on used cars, you'll just have to keep looking around and comparing it to what else is available.

cbdo2007 said:   If it is a Toyota dealer you're dealing with


It's actually a Ford dealership, and this appears to be one of the few Toyotas they have in stock. It appears to have been a trade-in, according to their description of it.

Yeah, like every other poster is saying, yours is one of the few cases where buying the new truck seems to be a better deal than buying the used one. Is there a reason you don't want to buy new?

forbin4040 said:   First off too bad crown vics don't come in truck form or manual transmission

2nd don't buy a 2 year old used from a dealer for a 2 k difference. Autos lose 20% of value just driving off the lot and you are looking for a 3 year old car with a 15%? Get new or find a new dealer.

3rd I use nada guides over KBB

4th they will never give you that price if they are a toyota dealer or on your first visit. That car has to sit for a month before they give in on 2000 discount


Definitely agree on the 4th point. My boyfriend recently purchased a vehicle. While he was shopping, we drove a used Camry at the local Toyota store. The dealership I work for had the identical vehicle (the same standard rental car version of the Camry) in a different color for two grand less. I'm sure we got them from the same auction, too. I think the mindset at Toyota stores is "well....we sell Toyotas, you're going to buy one if you want one, so... this is what it costs." They weren't interested in talking about prices on their new vehicles, either - and had added one of those fun $700 "this is just because we can" price bumps to the cost, too. (We didn't end up buying a Toyota).

Quikboy4 said:   Yeah, like every other poster is saying, yours is one of the few cases where buying the new truck seems to be a better deal than buying the used one. Is there a reason you don't want to buy new?


You mean aside from the general FWF admonition that buying new is almost always a sucker's route?

In all seriousness, though: I do want a vehicle that's going to have a substantial service life left on it when I take possession. Ever vehicle I've ever owned came to me with 150k+ miles on it - either a family gift or bought cheap from a friend - and has been driven into the ground. I understand that new vehicles often suffer substantial immediate depreciation, but at the same time I'm hesitant to get a used vehicle that's "too" used.

I'm not mechanically savvy enough that I would know something wrong if I saw/heard it, so the only metric I have to judge a used vehicle by is the general correlation between its age/mileage and its health. I'm in a curious position, though, that the particular model I'm looking at doesn't tend to be offered at much below the "new" price, at least when looking at later-year or lower-mileage models. Also, from what I understand, Toyotas are among the brands that tend to hold onto their value a bit more than others.

One method I've been using to judge the relative value of the many vehicles I've looked at is the ratio of its out-the-door price to its remaining useful life, judged in miles. Being that I'm looking at (roughly) identical models/options, I feel that this is the best way to make an apples-to-apples comparison between whether I'd get better value from this offer or that offer.

Using that metric and solving backwards, I figure that this particular model would provide me with the same cost-per-mile over its lifetime as a new model (bought through PenFed's service) if I were to pay $14k for it. That's not much less than the dealer is asking, though, and I don't just want a sufficient deal, I want a good deal. Besides which, for a nominal amount more I could get the safety net of a new car warranty and any other extras I can convince them to toss in if I were to buy new.

Or yeah, I could just get a Crown Vic, but it's hard to haul a refrigerator in the back of one of those...

Iveaset said:   
Or yeah, I could just get a Crown Vic, but it's hard to haul a refrigerator in the back of one of those...


You haul refrigerators often, or is that just an excuse?
It's easier to load a fridge onto a trailer than to lift it up to pickup truck height, and you only need to drag the trailer around with you when you need it. If you don't haul a fridge often enough for a trailer to make sense (as opposed to paying a delivery fee), then you don't haul one often enough for a truck to make sense.

taxmantoo said:   You haul refrigerators often, or is that just an excuse?


The refrigerator example is only meant to highlight the cargo capacity of a truck versus the passenger capacity of a car. For my personal vehicle, I prefer the former over the latter.

Chances are that truck won't stay on the lot for more than 1 month, someone will pick it up or it will most likely end up going to the auction. The guy who traded it in got raped I can tell you that much.

Iveaset said:   Quikboy4 said:   Yeah, like every other poster is saying, yours is one of the few cases where buying the new truck seems to be a better deal than buying the used one. Is there a reason you don't want to buy new?


You mean aside from the general FWF admonition that buying new is almost always a sucker's route?

In all seriousness, though: I do want a vehicle that's going to have a substantial service life left on it when I take possession. Ever vehicle I've ever owned came to me with 150k+ miles on it - either a family gift or bought cheap from a friend - and has been driven into the ground. I understand that new vehicles often suffer substantial immediate depreciation, but at the same time I'm hesitant to get a used vehicle that's "too" used.

I'm not mechanically savvy enough that I would know something wrong if I saw/heard it, so the only metric I have to judge a used vehicle by is the general correlation between its age/mileage and its health. I'm in a curious position, though, that the particular model I'm looking at doesn't tend to be offered at much below the "new" price, at least when looking at later-year or lower-mileage models. Also, from what I understand, Toyotas are among the brands that tend to hold onto their value a bit more than others.

One method I've been using to judge the relative value of the many vehicles I've looked at is the ratio of its out-the-door price to its remaining useful life, judged in miles. Being that I'm looking at (roughly) identical models/options, I feel that this is the best way to make an apples-to-apples comparison between whether I'd get better value from this offer or that offer.

Using that metric and solving backwards, I figure that this particular model would provide me with the same cost-per-mile over its lifetime as a new model (bought through PenFed's service) if I were to pay $14k for it. That's not much less than the dealer is asking, though, and I don't just want a sufficient deal, I want a good deal. Besides which, for a nominal amount more I could get the safety net of a new car warranty and any other extras I can convince them to toss in if I were to buy new.

Or yeah, I could just get a Crown Vic, but it's hard to haul a refrigerator in the back of one of those...


But judging by that, all else being equal, you'll get 22,000 miles for a ~$1500 price differential? Combine that with a new car warranty to cover your lack of mechanical ability, and I really think that buying new is a no-brainer.

Quikboy4 said:   But judging by that, all else being equal, you'll get 22,000 miles for a ~$1500 price differential? Combine that with a new car warranty to cover your lack of mechanical ability, and I really think that buying new is a no-brainer.


Is there any standard method of determining the "expected economic value" of a new car warranty? I imagine it would depend greatly on the vehicle in question.

It's not what you think it's worth, it's what the market is willing to pay for it. Assuming you can get $1k off the truck - unlikely, but assuming - $2k for 22k miles of use and 3 years works out to be about 9.1 cents per mile or $55 per month of ownership. This is exceedingly cheap cost for owning a vehicle. This comes with the peace of mind that if anything breaks on the car, it's covered under warranty, and all of the major wear/tear items like brakes, tires, belts, etc, are essentially "new" during this time and do not require replacement. None of the major services become due either. Vehicle values typically take a dive after the warranty expires, for good reason, as it is also approximately the time when the major wear and tear items start requiring replacement. If you view the $16k truck life as being 20 years with $2k residual value, $16k averaged out comes to about $58.30/month. The $14k 3-year old truck with the same calculation comes to $58.82/month. This is not considering normal wearable item costs, of which there is certainly some, but almost none of which occurs in the first three years of ownership. As you can see, $55/month with no additional costs other than oil changes is a significantly superior deal than paying more per year for a used truck.

Any rational person would choose the new truck when deciding between these two choices.

Be rational.

FSBox said:   If you view the $16k truck life as being 20 years with $2k residual value, $16k averaged out comes to about $58.30/month. The $14k 3-year old truck with the same calculation comes to $58.82/month. This is not considering normal wearable item costs, of which there is certainly some, but almost none of which occurs in the first three years of ownership. [...] Any rational person would choose the new truck when deciding between these two choices.


Assuming I can't negotiate the new truck price any lower, would it be worthwhile to try to negotiate a lower price on the used truck to get its cost-per-month to meet or beat that of the new truck's? The breakeven price for the used one would be $13,900 in that case. Or do you think the difference in final price is too negligible in this case to even warrant taking on the additional risk that a used vehicle entails?

Even if you could get the cost to break even, you still have to consider that the new truck has the advantage of 3 years of use without any wearable items needing replacement, and 3 years of warranty coverage. There's also the fact that the use and enjoyment of a car that's 3 years newer has *some* value.

Buying a used car makes sense only if you can save significant amount of money vs buying new. For example, a 2011 Mercedes C300 is about $27-28k with clear carfax and in good condition. A new 2013 that's similarly equipped will set you back about $40k. $12k of depreciation over 2 years makes it worthwhile to buy the 2011 based purely on the financial calculation.

Iveaset said:   FSBox said:   If you view the $16k truck life as being 20 years with $2k residual value, $16k averaged out comes to about $58.30/month. The $14k 3-year old truck with the same calculation comes to $58.82/month. This is not considering normal wearable item costs, of which there is certainly some, but almost none of which occurs in the first three years of ownership. [...] Any rational person would choose the new truck when deciding between these two choices.


Assuming I can't negotiate the new truck price any lower, would it be worthwhile to try to negotiate a lower price on the used truck to get its cost-per-month to meet or beat that of the new truck's? The breakeven price for the used one would be $13,900 in that case. Or do you think the difference in final price is too negligible in this case to even warrant taking on the additional risk that a used vehicle entails?


Aside from the wear and tear items, you won't likely see stuff breaking on the Taco in the first 3 to 5 years of ownership. The problems will begin once the warranty runs out. The older models had really bad frame rusting problems but Toyota issued a recall for that.

No way would I spend that kind of money for a used 3 year old base model Tacoma.

Op you are trying to use math and rational thought but that doesn't apply here

A car dealer knows he can sucker someone ELSE into paying full price by talking monthly payments and hiding the price in the financing and trade in, so if they can make much more selling to a different sucker , they'll tell the savvy buyer to take a hike

You want to give it a shot ? Take a fresh stack of $100s to the dealer and immediately ask for the sales manager . That way there's no salesperson commission .

Sit the stack down and say I'm "willing to pay $xxx cash right now and not a penny more". They'll either take it or laugh and you can get it over quickly and move onto buying a new one

A Tacoma seems like one of a few vehicles where buying a 2-3 year old model isn't really worth it. You are only saving a few grand and you can likely get better financing on a new truck anyways.

Consider a Nissan Frontier, they depreciate faster.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   Sit the stack [of $100s] down and say I'm "willing to pay $xxx cash right now and not a penny more". They'll either take it or laugh and you can get it over quickly and move onto buying a new one

Right, I get that. What I'm trying to figure out though is how many stacks of $100s I should be taking.

If I were buying a washer and dryer, I have a good idea of what I'd be willing to pay, and what would be a fair price. Ditto if I were buying a PC, a lawnmower, or any other number of small appliances or everyday items. Being that this is the first time I'm embarking on a "real" vehicle purchase, though, I have no idea where to even set my aim.

And yes, I know that in the end "What is a good price" is ultimately up to me, but if I had my druthers, I'd get a new truck for $1. That's not going to happen, because they know that's not a fair price. Likewise, I"m sure the dealer would love to sell to me for $1,000,000 but that's not going to happen because I know that's not a fair price, either.

Some people are saying that the difference between the asking price and that of a new truck is too small, and I'd be better off buying new. Others are saying that the asking price is not only high, but too high, but there doesn't seem to be much followup in the way of suggesting what a reasonable price would be.

I get that everyone's comfort level is different, and what seems reasonable to me might be overpriced to another (or vice-versa), but if I want to come up with a "fair market value" the only data I have to go on are what some other apples and oranges are being listed for, not what they're actually selling for.

That's why I'm here: I'm calling on the combined knowledge and experience of FWF'ers for their insight into what is (or how to determine) a reasonable amount to offer and a reasonable amount to be asked, and then I can see if the bell curve of my comfort range falls within that set.

There is no one FWF consciousness on car buying. You are going to get a variety of opinions and recommendations. What you are looking for doesn't exist. Read the opinions given and make up your own mind.

It's increasingly sounding like you really really want to buy the used truck and want FWF affirmation that the used truck is the FWF-approved decision.

FSBox said:   It's increasingly sounding like you really really want to buy the used truck and want FWF affirmation that the used truck is the FWF-approved decision.

While I admit that I did enter into this whole venture with the mantra "Buy used, not new" pounded into my head from reading countless other car-buying threads, I can't stress enough that I'm trying to be as objective and unbiased in my thinking as I can be. If that leads me to buy a new vehicle, then so be it.

The reason that there is a "Buy used, not new" attitude in so many such threads is that those commenting are able to provide compelling justifications that any reasonable person would be able to agree with - things involving retained value, expected useful life, depreciation of assets, etc. Nobody would argue against (all else being equal) buying a used car for $1 is objectively better than buying a new car for $50,000 - or that buying a new car for $1 is objectively better than buying a used car for $50,000. Somewhere, though, the slopes of those two comparisons intersect and there are clear areas where, say, buying a new car for $X is better than buying a used car for $(X-y%) or vice-versa.

I know that nobody can make this decision for me, but I have a feeling that if I were asking for advice in comparing two bonds of differing yields and periods, or deciding whether to repair a 20-yr old roof or replace it completely, the advice would not be limited to "Just go with your gut", but would instead be backed by some quantification of value in each instance (allowing for necessary assumptions and uncertainty).

Like you said yourself - I'm bound to get a variety of opinions. And that's fine, I'd love to get a variety of opinions, but what I'd like even better is some sort of explanation behind those opinions. Saying "I'd never pay that much" is all good and well, but how much would you pay, and why? Saying "The discount on the used truck versus new isn't enough" is nice, but how much would be enough, and why?

I want to go on record as saying that I really, really do appreciate all the responses I've gotten so far, but I'm just struggling to understand why some of the responses are what they are. If you want, pretend that I'm not even buying a vehicle (as I'm pretty much stuck in neutral at the moment anyways) but am instead asking for advice/opinions on how you would go about the valuation process on any given vehicle in the first place.

Valuation process on a used vehicle: Use NADA (or blue book depending on where you are in the country), look at comps (private party sales on craigslist, other dealer lots, etc), look at supply of said comps.

ryoung81 said:   Valuation process on a used vehicle: Use NADA (or blue book depending on where you are in the country), look at comps (private party sales on craigslist, other dealer lots, etc), look at supply of said comps.

As I mentioned earlier, it's no great task to find what other, similar vehicles are being offered for, but do any of these resources help me determine what others are actually being sold for?

If money is not a huge concern (as in you have it and are willing to use it), I would talk to local dealers and see how much I could get the new one for. As others have said, the depreciation on what amounts to the base model work truck is not going to be that great. If you were looking at one of the $30K Tacomas you would see a lot more value going used. But since you are looking at the base model you aren't going to realize the same savings.

The extra years of warranty and newer styling (the Tacoma got a facelift and better interior in 2012) would be worth a couple thousand to me. Plus when you do decide to get rid of it, its a three year newer truck and will be easier to unload.

Truecar.com shows the lowest price people are paying is around $16,700. So if you can get a new one through Penfed OTD for just over $16,000 that is a good deal. Just make sure they are quoting you the out the door price.

LiquidSilver said:   Truecar.com shows the lowest price people are paying is around $16,700. So if you can get a new one through Penfed OTD for just over $16,000 that is a good deal. Just make sure they are quoting you the out the door price.

PenFed and TrueCar both note "Plus tax, tags, etc." so I'm thinking that if I do go the new-vehicle route I'll try the "Buying new the FWF way" method and shotgun best-quote requests to all the dealerships in 150 or so miles to see if I can't get any to offer below PenFed's quote. I'm at the point now where I want to replace my vehicle but not quite to the point where I need to, so I think I've got some room to look for savings.

From what I've read so far, though, it seems like you're right and the savings realized on a used model probably aren't going to be that great over a new one, especially at this price point.

Iveaset said:   LiquidSilver said:   Truecar.com shows the lowest price people are paying is around $16,700. So if you can get a new one through Penfed OTD for just over $16,000 that is a good deal. Just make sure they are quoting you the out the door price.

PenFed and TrueCar both note "Plus tax, tags, etc." so I'm thinking that if I do go the new-vehicle route I'll try the "Buying new the FWF way" method and shotgun best-quote requests to all the dealerships in 150 or so miles to see if I can't get any to offer below PenFed's quote. I'm at the point now where I want to replace my vehicle but not quite to the point where I need to, so I think I've got some room to look for savings.

From what I've read so far, though, it seems like you're right and the savings realized on a used model probably aren't going to be that great over a new one, especially at this price point.
Ummm... a used car from a DEALER is "Plus tax,tags, etc". There is no way around that from a dealer. Buying a 3 year old car to save 15%+tax is just silly. Buy new

As others have said you are not going to get the dealer to budge much and even if you did it wouldn't be lower than a private party sale. Why not just look PP and save the money that way? Do you also live in a state where PP sales are not taxed but dealer sales are? This will save another grand.

forbin4040 said:   Iveaset said:   LiquidSilver said:   Truecar.com shows the lowest price people are paying is around $16,700. So if you can get a new one through Penfed OTD for just over $16,000 that is a good deal. Just make sure they are quoting you the out the door price.

PenFed and TrueCar both note "Plus tax, tags, etc." so I'm thinking that if I do go the new-vehicle route I'll try the "Buying new the FWF way" method and shotgun best-quote requests to all the dealerships in 150 or so miles to see if I can't get any to offer below PenFed's quote. I'm at the point now where I want to replace my vehicle but not quite to the point where I need to, so I think I've got some room to look for savings.

From what I've read so far, though, it seems like you're right and the savings realized on a used model probably aren't going to be that great over a new one, especially at this price point.
Ummm... a used car from a DEALER is "Plus tax,tags, etc". There is no way around that from a dealer. Buying a 3 year old car to save 15%+tax is just silly. Buy new


I was responding specifically to LiquidSilver's suggestion that PenFed's price of just over $16k would be good if it was an OTD price. Thanks for your input, but as I've mentioned before: Telling me that "Buying a 3 year old car to save 15% is just silly" doesn't tell me much. What about 20%? 25%? 25%? I could keep posting theoretical numbers, or if you have some methodology to share regarding how you determine what is silly and what isn't that might save us both a lot of typing.

Please understand: I'm not necessarilly asking "How much?", but instead "How do I determine how much?". By all means, teach me to fish instead of giving me a fish. Simply telling me "That's not how you catch fish" isn't helpful, though.

trekwars2000 said:   Why not just look PP and save the money that way? Do you also live in a state where PP sales are not taxed but dealer sales are? This will save another grand.

I'm not sure if it's a peculiarity of where I live, or if I'm just looking in the wrong places, but there don't seem to be many/any PP sellers who are offering what I'm looking for. As to taxes, my state does charge sales tax on PP sales, but in any event it's capped at $300, so at 5% I'm looking at paying that amount regardless as long as the sale price is $10,000+.

Iveaset said:   ryoung81 said:   Valuation process on a used vehicle: Use NADA (or blue book depending on where you are in the country), look at comps (private party sales on craigslist, other dealer lots, etc), look at supply of said comps.

As I mentioned earlier, it's no great task to find what other, similar vehicles are being offered for, but do any of these resources help me determine what others are actually being sold for?


That's what KBB/NADA is used for, it has some aggregate data I *THINK*. However, it's really beside the point. You should be able to find some of these things used by checking the used auto websites. If the offer prices are all close to what you are looking at there -- then it is probably in the ballpark for what they can sell it for.

ryoung81 said:   You should be able to find some of these things used by checking the used auto websites. If the offer prices are all close to what you are looking at there -- then it is probably in the ballpark for what they can sell it for.

Isn't that the same sort of mental trap that dealers use when posting MSRP? I don't think anyone here would advocate purchasing a new vehicle at MSRP just because all the other dealers are using the same or similar price point. Surely used car dealers have a similar strategy: inflate the asking price in hopes of an easy sale, while also leaving room to haggle when necessary.

Iveaset said:   trekwars2000 said:   Why not just look PP and save the money that way? Do you also live in a state where PP sales are not taxed but dealer sales are? This will save another grand.

I'm not sure if it's a peculiarity of where I live, or if I'm just looking in the wrong places, but there don't seem to be many/any PP sellers who are offering what I'm looking for. As to taxes, my state does charge sales tax on PP sales, but in any event it's capped at $300, so at 5% I'm looking at paying that amount regardless as long as the sale price is $10,000+.


I don't disagree that the amount of people that sell a car PP are a small percentage of the overall cars so, therefore it is going to be harder to find the car PP. However, you will save 1-2K more on this type of car to go PP. Also, flying somewhere and driving the car back or shipping it, might not be as much as you think - therefore the search could be nationwide.

Skipping 13 Messages...
Or yeah, I could just get a Crown Vic, but it's hard to haul a refrigerator in the back of one of those...

But it WILL hold four bodies comfortably with no one knowing!!



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