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Hello All,

I'm posing this question to get some help for my parents.

My parents bought a brand new house in GA in 2003. The roof has a 25 yr warranty. For the last couple years, they were experiencing water leakage through the roof whenever it rains. They called the builder to get them to repair the leakage. The builder refused to do anything claiming that it is outside of their 3 yr warranty for the house and told my parents to go after the roof manufacturer (ATlAS). My parents, who speak little to no English, decided to get a contractor to temporary fix the roof instead of going through the hassles of fighting with a big company. Towards the end of last year, they decided to rent out their house and wanted to fix the roof prior to putting the house on the market for rent. They tried to file a claim with the house insurance company (Southern Mutual Insurance in GA) which was denied. The insurance company inspector claimed that the shingles were defected and thus is not covered under their policy.

All of the above information was provided to me by my parents and i wasn't involved until January of this yr when they needed my help to file a claim with the roof manufacturer. We submitted everything that they asked and they sent us a letter with a check for $2,201.22 based on 42 squares shingles (estimated by our roofer) at the current price prorated at 67% since we had the roof for 10 yrs out of 25 yrs warranty. They also sent us the warranty which states that they don't cover replacement installation cost of new products. My parents received a quote from their roofer who quoted a total cost of $10k to replace/fix the entire roof. I also found out today that when they bought the house, they didn't pay for an inspector to inspect the house thinking that it was brand new and is not necessary.

My questions to all you gurus out there are:

1) Should my parents accept this as part of life and eat the cost to get the roof repaired to prevent further damage to the house? or
2) Should we get a lawyer and fight for this?
3 Has anyone on this forum experienced something similar that can provide me with some lesson learned how to go about resolving this to minimize the amount of $ that my parents have to come up with to fix the roof? Both of my parents combined make about 70k a year. They do have savings, but I rather that they don't have to use unless it is absolutely required.

I'm quite upset that there's a potential that my parents will have to pay 8k out of pocket to fix this when it was the manufacturer who sold us defected shingles in the first place. This is my first experience with something like this so any advices would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: revised OP to replace "defected" with "defective"

Member Summary
Most Recent Posts
$10k for 42 square is great.

go to eagleview.com and order a satellite image measurement of your roof. 2600 square foot ... (more)

evmocas (May. 13, 2013 @ 12:30p) |

It seems that I should clarify the OP a bit. The 42 square is what the roofer gave us for our warranty claim. The manu... (more)

ptqcangel (May. 13, 2013 @ 12:40p) |

UPDATED:

I called atlas corporate consumer service office this morning asking for more money. I figured the worst they ... (more)

ptqcangel (May. 13, 2013 @ 2:05p) |


They should have had an inspection when they bought the house. But, it likely would not have turned up defective shingles.

The builder and insurance company are both denying liability, and the shingle manufacturer has accepted responsibility. Unless the warranty specifically covers anything other than the depreciated replacement of materials, this is just an expense they will have to pay for low quality materials in the initial build.

An attorney wouldn't care about this unless a bunch of other neighbors are having the same issue and they can turn it into a class action suit.

The fact that the shingle manufacturer paid out $2,200 without having to sue them is a minor miracle itself that you should be thankful for.

Yes, low quality materials with warranty... Enjoy the quote from Tommy Boy:

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.

Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?

[chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing]

Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?

Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.

Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?

Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

Ted Nelson, Customer: [pause] Okay, I'll buy from you.

RealEstateMatt said:   They should have had an inspection when they bought the house. But, it likely would not have turned up defective shingles.

The builder and insurance company are both denying liability, and the shingle manufacturer has accepted responsibility. Unless the warranty specifically covers anything other than the depreciated replacement of materials, this is just an expense they will have to pay for low quality materials in the initial build.

An attorney wouldn't care about this unless a bunch of other neighbors are having the same issue and they can turn it into a class action suit.

The fact that the shingle manufacturer paid out $2,200 without having to sue them is a minor miracle itself that you should be thankful for.

Exactly

I'm shocked you got something from the shingle mfgr

If the check isn't a full and final settlement with a release or restrictive language , you might be able to cash the check but still sue them in small claims for more , assuming you can think of a valid reason they should have paid more.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   RealEstateMatt said:   They should have had an inspection when they bought the house. But, it likely would not have turned up defective shingles.

The builder and insurance company are both denying liability, and the shingle manufacturer has accepted responsibility. Unless the warranty specifically covers anything other than the depreciated replacement of materials, this is just an expense they will have to pay for low quality materials in the initial build.

An attorney wouldn't care about this unless a bunch of other neighbors are having the same issue and they can turn it into a class action suit.

The fact that the shingle manufacturer paid out $2,200 without having to sue them is a minor miracle itself that you should be thankful for.

Exactly

I'm shocked you got something from the shingle mfgr

If the check isn't a full and final settlement with a release or restrictive language , you might be able to cash the check but still sue them in small claims for more , assuming you can think of a valid reason they should have paid more.



would the fact that the shingle manufacture sold us defected shingles that resulted in our roof having water damage and having to completely replace the roof a valid enough reason to sue them in small claim?

The letter they sent us with the check doesn't have any type of release or restrictive language. All it said was we are giving you 2200$ as a settlemen and this is how we came up with that number and they attached wording from their warranty which I already discussed in the OP.

If I understood ur response correct, you are saying that we should just accept this check, repair the roof out of our pocket, and move on with life? I was hoping that there would be something more I could do to help my parents. 8k is a lot for them, but I guess it is what it is. Thanks for your help.

They are paying that amount based on warranty terms

You can certainly pursue a products liability cause of action for manufacturing or design defect , which may get you more than you would get under the terms of the warranty

Defective.....

Who was the shingle manufacturer? It's pretty common for this to happen. Sometimes it's the fault of the installer, but if they just sent you the check maybe they knew you had a defective batch. There were lawsuits about this years ago, but maybe it's too late to get a better settlement. You can do the suggested above, but yeah typically they only guarantee the shingle, not the installation. Like getting work done on cars, even lifetime warranty on the parts doesn't cover labor. And as you didn't pay for the installer.... Sounds like you got a standard builder's warranty which does expire. If you get a new roof, the new architectural shingles are now supposed to be a lifetime warranty instead of a 30 year one. Looks like they're the same shingle though. Typically on a regular 25 year 3 tab single, they seem to last around 20 in this area but I suppose that can vary depending on where you are in the country. On the new one, ask what kind of underlayment they're using, cheap places do 15#, others do 30# and then there's the newer synthetic underlayment. And you can also also go a little nuts and do ice and water on the whole roof instead of on the edges. More money though, especially if you have a 42 square roof, that's pretty big.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:   They are paying that amount based on warranty terms

You can certainly pursue a products liability cause of action for manufacturing or design defect , which may get you more than you would get under the terms of the warranty



I'm assuming that I would have to do that in small claim court? do I need to get a lawyer? I know someone else mentioned that a lawyer might not be interested unless it's a class action suit. can you provide some guidance how to go about this? I know there's some paperwork to fill out to file a claim, but what sort of evidence do I need in order to get the judge to rule in my favor?

OP stated they are ATIAS and I assumed OP meant Atlas, which is a crappy shingle. I mean holy hell their big differentiation in the market is they put Scotchgard on their shingles! LOL.
Let's assume they used Atlas's most basic grade given that there is a 25 year warranty (practically all laminate shingles in 2003 had a minimum of 30 year warranty). Further, lets assume that their "new and improved" warranty is liberalized from the prior warranty. Looking at their 30 year shingle it has 5 year non-prorated warranty that includes both labor and material. This is unusual (and likely part of their "new and improved" warranty). After that they provide a 1/250 prorated program for materials. Unfortunately, this is for the shingle material alone. Note the other materials that can sometimes equal the cost of the shingles themselves, such as ice and water shield, drip edge, felt, flashing, vents, pipe jacks, etc. So they have paid 100/250 or 40% of the shingle material cost which equaled $2201 of $5500 material costs. You stated there are 42 squares of shingles, thus they have priced their shingles at $130 per square for material costs. Quite fair.

As to the interior damages, you don't have a chance. Do you happen to have an extra bundle of shingles from the original installation or did they provide you with a full copy of the warranty. You will see this language: "IN NO INSTANCE IS ATLAS RESPONSIBLE FOR SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. THE DURATION OF ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY IS HEREIN LIMITED IN DURATION TO THAT OF THE EXPRESS WARRANTY STATED HEREIN." You will argue that you didn't install the shingles, the contractor did. Unfortunately this contract falls back on your parents.

My question is why is a 25 year shingle failing 10 years in? What is the specific defect? Craze cracking, delamination, organic defect or what? Frankly, I am rather sure that if we weighed this shingle or put a thickness gauge on it we would find that it is more inline with the market average 20 year shingle. 25 year shingles, particularly in 2003 construction are quite rare. The vast majority (and I am talking 95%) of 3 tab shingles are 20 year shingles. The vast majority of (and I am talking 95%) of laminate shingles are 30 year or greater shingles. To further define this question, where and why is the roof leaking? I am referencing 10s of thousands of roofs, likely approaching 100k roofs, when I say that I can't remember seeing shingle defect arise and cause leaking within 10 years. I have certainly reviewed many roofs that have failed and caused interior damage in the first ten years which were improperly installed, most often an improper pitch (installing shingles on a 2/12 pitch for example) or improper or poor flashing, lack of underlayment clips, etc but I can't remember seeing one leak due due to just a shingle manufacturing defect. Maybe an defective seal of the shingles resulting in wind driven rain? It would have to be an insanely bad defect outside of that.

The lifetime warranties are absolutely egregious and riff with consumer screw over imo. They severely limit the warranty of the average home. Before, 30 year laminate shingles typically had a transferable warranty, even if it included a small fee, though some limited the transfer period to 5 - 10 years. Todays "lifetime" warranty applies to the original owners lifeand terminates at the sell or transfer of the home. Note that lifetime shingles apply only to single family detached residential properties. In all other cases they revert to a 50 year warranty, which of course is prorated at 1/500. This avoids a "lifetime" warranty from applying to perpetual trusts, apartments and commercial buildings. Given the average length of home ownership which is what, 7 - 8 years, the manufacturers are making out. Remember, warranties typically were based upon weight and therefore shingle thickness. Practically nothing has changed in these lifetime shingles, rather its just a change in the terms (negatively imo) of the warranty.

Regarding the replacement of the shingle. I would highly recommend you figure out what is causing the leaks. Do you have proper and adequate roof ventilation? 42 square is 4200 square feet, thus you need a minimum of 28 square feet of net attic ventilation. This can be venting ridges, gable vents, etc. Is there algae growth on the roof? Make sure the new roof has ice and water shield in valleys and roof edges as recommended by your roofing contractor and local code (though I am guessing the house is located in southern states, likely Florida or Texas, given the use of Atlas shingles as that is where we typically see them). Do not use ice and water shield on the entire roof as suggested in a prior post. Make sure the roof decking has proper clips to avoid distortion. 15lb felt is perfectly fine in the vast majority of applications. Roofers like using 30lb on steeper pitches however that is for their safety as it is less likely to rip when walking on it. Once the shingles are on there is very little difference unless you are talking a low pitch roof less than 4/12.

Source: Haag Engineering

evmocas said:   OP stated they are ATIAS and I assumed OP meant Atlas, which is a crappy shingle. I mean holy hell their big differentiation in the market is they put Scotchgard on their shingles! LOL.
Let's assume they used Atlas's most basic grade given that there is a 25 year warranty (practically all laminate shingles in 2003 had a minimum of 30 year warranty). Further, lets assume that their "new and improved" warranty is liberalized from the prior warranty. Looking at their 30 year shingle it has 5 year non-prorated warranty that includes both labor and material. This is unusual (and likely part of their "new and improved" warranty). After that they provide a 1/250 prorated program for materials. Unfortunately, this is for the shingle material alone. Note the other materials that can sometimes equal the cost of the shingles themselves, such as ice and water shield, drip edge, felt, flashing, vents, pipe jacks, etc. So they have paid 100/250 or 40% of the shingle material cost which equaled $2201 of $5500 material costs. You stated there are 42 squares of shingles, thus they have priced their shingles at $130 per square for material costs. Quite fair.

As to the interior damages, you don't have a chance. Do you happen to have an extra bundle of shingles from the original installation or did they provide you with a full copy of the warranty. You will see this language: "IN NO INSTANCE IS ATLAS RESPONSIBLE FOR SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. THE DURATION OF ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY IS HEREIN LIMITED IN DURATION TO THAT OF THE EXPRESS WARRANTY STATED HEREIN." You will argue that you didn't install the shingles, the contractor did. Unfortunately this contract falls back on your parents.

My question is why is a 25 year shingle failing 10 years in? What is the specific defect? Craze cracking, delamination, organic defect or what? Frankly, I am rather sure that if we weighed this shingle or put a thickness gauge on it we would find that it is more inline with the market average 20 year shingle. 25 year shingles, particularly in 2003 construction are quite rare. The vast majority (and I am talking 95%) of 3 tab shingles are 20 year shingles. The vast majority of (and I am talking 95%) of laminate shingles are 30 year or greater shingles. To further define this question, where and why is the roof leaking? I am referencing 10s of thousands of roofs, likely approaching 100k roofs, when I say that I can't remember seeing shingle defect arise and cause leaking within 10 years. I have certainly reviewed many roofs that have failed and caused interior damage in the first ten years which were improperly installed, most often an improper pitch (installing shingles on a 2/12 pitch for example) or improper or poor flashing, lack of underlayment clips, etc but I can't remember seeing one leak due due to just a shingle manufacturing defect. Maybe an defective seal of the shingles resulting in wind driven rain? It would have to be an insanely bad defect outside of that.

The lifetime warranties are absolutely egregious and riff with consumer screw over imo. They severely limit the warranty of the average home. Before, 30 year laminate shingles typically had a transferable warranty, even if it included a small fee, though some limited the transfer period to 5 - 10 years. Todays "lifetime" warranty applies to the original owners lifeand terminates at the sell or transfer of the home. Note that lifetime shingles apply only to single family detached residential properties. In all other cases they revert to a 50 year warranty, which of course is prorated at 1/500. This avoids a "lifetime" warranty from applying to perpetual trusts, apartments and commercial buildings. Given the average length of home ownership which is what, 7 - 8 years, the manufacturers are making out. Remember, warranties typically were based upon weight and therefore shingle thickness. Practically nothing has changed in these lifetime shingles, rather its just a change in the terms (negatively imo) of the warranty.

Regarding the replacement of the shingle. I would highly recommend you figure out what is causing the leaks. Do you have proper and adequate roof ventilation? 42 square is 4200 square feet, thus you need a minimum of 28 square feet of net attic ventilation. This can be venting ridges, gable vents, etc. Is there algae growth on the roof? Make sure the new roof has ice and water shield in valleys and roof edges as recommended by your roofing contractor and local code (though I am guessing the house is located in southern states, likely Florida or Texas, given the use of Atlas shingles as that is where we typically see them). Do not use ice and water shield on the entire roof as suggested in a prior post. Make sure the roof decking has proper clips to avoid distortion. 15lb felt is perfectly fine in the vast majority of applications. Roofers like using 30lb on steeper pitches however that is for their safety as it is less likely to rip when walking on it. Once the shingles are on there is very little difference unless you are talking a low pitch roof less than 4/12.

Source: Haag Engineering



The roof manufacturer is indeed ATLAS. To answer your questions, I'm not exactly sure what the specific defect is. Both our roofer and the insurance inspector simply told my parents (i was not present) that the shingles are indeed defective. We just filed a claim with ATLAS and sent in samples to them. After reviewing the paperwork, they just sent us a check for the shingles. My parents told me that the roofer who inspected the roof found damages all over the entire roof and told us that it needs to be replaced. My parents' house is in GA.

We had defective GAF shingles (that were not noted by a "thorough" inspector), and also received a settlement from GAF for only the cost of the shingles. In IN the builder must warranty a new home against installation and manufacturer defects for 4 years, so after a year of being told no by the builder, I finally won once I called the attorney general and he got involved.

Since you are outside of the builder's warranty period, you are SOL on the cost of installation.

Better call Saul.

tomjef said:   Better call Saul.

If only I could!

ptqcangel said:   My parents received a quote from their roofer who quoted a total cost of $10k to replace/fix the entire roof.Get a few more estimates. Don't say anything to the roofers about warranty claims. If they know you got a check, they are going to mark it up.

dcwilbur said:   ptqcangel said:   My parents received a quote from their roofer who quoted a total cost of $10k to replace/fix the entire roof.Get a few more estimates. Don't say anything to the roofers about warranty claims. If they know you got a check, they are going to mark it up.

I will definitely tell my parents to call around for more estimates. The roofer who gave us this 10k estimate verbally was the one who helped my parents filled out some of the warranty claim forms so I think he's awared of it. he, however, doesn't know that we received a check from the manufacture. I'll let my parents know not to tell any other roofers about this. Thanks!

ptqcangel said:   and they sent us a letter with a check for $2,201.22 based on 42 squares shingles (estimated by our roofer) at the current price prorated at 67% since we had the roof for 10 yrs out of 25 yrs warranty. They also sent us the warranty which states that they don't cover replacement installation cost of new products. My parents received a quote from their roofer who quoted a total cost of $10k to replace/fix the entire roof
why does it cost $10,000 to replace 42 squares of shingles ?

xoneinax said:   ptqcangel said:   and they sent us a letter with a check for $2,201.22 based on 42 squares shingles (estimated by our roofer) at the current price prorated at 67% since we had the roof for 10 yrs out of 25 yrs warranty. They also sent us the warranty which states that they don't cover replacement installation cost of new products. My parents received a quote from their roofer who quoted a total cost of $10k to replace/fix the entire roof
why does it cost $10,000 to replace 42 squares of shingles ?


This number is a preliminary estimate that my dad's roofer provided. He told us that it will be approximately 5k for the shingles and 5k for installation. The roofer came to inspect the roof for our warranty claim and my dad just asked how much he thinks it would cost to fix the roof. We haven't started the process of shopping around for a contractor to do the job yet. As I mentioned above, I will mentioned to my dad to call around and get multiple estimates. Our current priority is to see if there are ways to avoid having to eat the majority of the cost of repair.

xoneinax said:   why does it cost $10,000 to replace 42 squares of shingles ?A couple hundred bucks a square wouldn't be that outrageous, but 42 squares? That is a huge roof. OP, is the house really that big? Sounds like this roofer might be trying to get your parents to buy the supplies for his next two or three jobs!

dcwilbur said:   xoneinax said:   why does it cost $10,000 to replace 42 squares of shingles ?A couple hundred bucks a square wouldn't be that outrageous, but 42 squares? That is a huge roof. OP, is the house really that big? Sounds like this roofer might be trying to get your parents to buy the supplies for his next two or three jobs!

According to our building permit, the total dimension of the house is approx. 2600 sq. ft. I'm not too sure how he got 42 square from as I was not present when he did the inspection.

Wow $10,000...I think we paid $5000 to do a whole roof of 1000sqft 2500 l 2500 pm but $10,000 to PATCH 7 sq feet of shingles? Damn.

forbin4040 said:   Wow $10,000...I think we paid $5000 to do a whole roof of 1000sqft 2500 l 2500 pm but $10,000 to PATCH 7 sq feet of shingles? Damn.

I'm not sure I quite understand what u r saying. the 10k estimate is to redo the entire roof and my house is 2600 sq ft.

ptqcangel said:   forbin4040 said:   Wow $10,000...I think we paid $5000 to do a whole roof of 1000sqft 2500 l 2500 pm but $10,000 to PATCH 7 sq feet of shingles? Damn.

I'm not sure I quite understand what u r saying. the 10k estimate is to redo the entire roof and my house is 2600 sq ft.


The reason 42 squares sounds high is because one square is 100 square feet so 42 square works out to 4200 square feet of roofing material. If your house is 2600 square feet and it's two levels, that makes it about 1300 square feet per level. If it's not too complex without a lot of valleys and gables, somewhere in the range of 15-18 squares would make more sense. If it's just one level, even 42 is still a stretch but maybe the roofer just did you a favor in order to get more from the manufacturer. Rates on a roof can be between $300-$400 per square so if it's really 10k for a 42 square roof, it's a good deal, especially on a strip and reroof, not a go over where they just throw a new layer of shingles on the old one.

$10k for 42 square is great.

go to eagleview.com and order a satellite image measurement of your roof. 2600 square foot house shouldnt be 42 sq even if steep and 15% waste.

It seems that I should clarify the OP a bit. The 42 square is what the roofer gave us for our warranty claim. The manufacture used this number to estimate how much compensation we should get for having a defective product. while the roofer was inspecting the house for the claim, my dad just casually ask how much it would cost for the repair, to which the roofer estimated about 5k for materials and 5k for labor for the total cost. we haven't gotten any formal estimates from any roofers yet. It may be that the roofer did my parents a favor to get more money. When we sign the contract for the work, I will do my best to make sure that the roofer don't overestimate on the materials.

UPDATED:

I called atlas corporate consumer service office this morning asking for more money. I figured the worst they could do is tell me no and I didn't want to go through the legal process unless its the last resort. They told me to send them a letter stating our concern and request for more money and a manager will review our case again. does anyone see an issue with me going this route? any negatives?



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