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This is the best place for financial advice and wanted to start here. My 26 year old brother was diagnosed with cancer last week. The cancer in his throat will require chemotherapy and the expenses that come along with the long treatments. For someone that is so young he is in a decent financial situation, no debt, good credit and some savings. However he is self employed and had no medical insurance. That is in the past and can't be changed. He knows the downside now and the importance of insurance but its to late. The cost for treatment will easily pass 100K based on early estimates. His salary over the past few years is in a area where he could not get government assistance. Are there any options or secret programs that might assist? Being so young I can't imagine the stress and possible lifetime debt something like this can cause and wanted to see if you guys/gals have any tips or suggestions. I am doing research but haven't found much help on the net. Thanks

Update 1: I appreciate all of your help and the discussions between yourselves. He currently lives in Oklahoma. Out of country treatment may be an option but since everything needs to happen quick it may be difficult and not worth the risk. Also he is not looking for someone to foot the bill as some have suggested, however if there is an option, program or insurance available that could help it would be smart to take advantage of it and if not I am sure we can all help and eventually get him out of this mess.

Update 2: Thanks for all of your ideas. Man and what a broad spectrum of ideas they are. I am definitely going to research many of them and shoot some over straight to my brother today. Thanks again for all your help.

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try http://www.cancercare.org/financial.
maybe they can, at least, offer some advice on where to turn.

badsister (May. 25, 2013 @ 9:44p) |

You don't know what you are talking about. Guarantee issue group business health insurance is available in all 50 state... (more)

BradMajors (May. 25, 2013 @ 10:16p) |

BradMajors, I was not responding to any comment that you made or any belief that you hold.

I responded to the incorrect s... (more)

NantucketSunrise (May. 28, 2013 @ 7:17p) |

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time machine?

failing that, he'll deplete all his assets until he's on Medicaid or gets a job with employer health insurance, which will likely exclude pre-existing conditions for x period of time.

I'd be looking for employment, pronto.

Once obammacare kicks in can't he get insurance even with a preexisting condition? Granted that is in the future but maybe it would cover some of the costs. He should also arrange to meet with the billing and business office of the hospital or hospitals (as he might need to do shopping) to make them aware that this will be non insured service and you want the best cash price not the insurance or medicare/aid cost. Best of luck to your bother, tough news, hope the therapy goes good.

Beginning Jan 2014 he can get insurance through anybody with no waiting period thanks to the Affordable Care Act Pre-existing Condition clause. The plans will be available on your state's Health Insurance Exchange starting October 1st so I would encourage him to sign up as quickly as possible to make sure he can start using the benefits Jan 1.

Otherwise, sounds like he'll just have to go out of pocket until then. Have him get some estimates for treatment plans for the next 6 months-1 year from a couple of different doctors, with costs included and then he can make an informed decision for what to do for the next 7.5 months. Good luck!

helpful first, then snarky.

Helpful: Is he able to move in with someone, become a member of their household, then get covered under their insurance? In general, he should get the best care possible as soon as possible, never delay care because of money.


Snarky: Could you please answer the following: has your brother ever smoked? dipped? Engaged in a sexual relationship that might cause him to have HPV in his throat? In general what are his risk factors for throat cancer? Did this throat cancer just come from nowhere?

Is it time to talk to the hospital's charity department before or after treatment starts?

As I understand it, it works like college financial aid.
You give them your financial information, they figure out exactly how much you can pay without going bankrupt, and that's what your share of the cost is.

cbdo2007 said:   Beginning Jan 2014 he can get insurance through anybody with no waiting period thanks to the Affordable Care Act Pre-existing Condition clause. The plans will be available on your state's Health Insurance Exchange starting October 1st so I would encourage him to sign up as quickly as possible to make sure he can start using the benefits Jan 1.

Otherwise, sounds like he'll just have to go out of pocket until then. Have him get some estimates for treatment plans for the next 6 months-1 year from a couple of different doctors, with costs included and then he can make an informed decision for what to do for the next 7.5 months. Good luck!


Good advice I will check into it. Thanks

soundtechie said:   helpful first, then snarky.

Helpful: Is he able to move in with someone, become a member of their household, then get covered under their insurance? In general, he should get the best care possible as soon as possible, never delay care because of money.


Snarky: Could you please answer the following: has your brother ever smoked? dipped? Engaged in a sexual relationship that might cause him to have HPV in his throat? In general what are his risk factors for throat cancer? Did this throat cancer just come from nowhere?


Doctor said it was just real bad luck and without cause. One of those things that "never" happen. Never smoked or really engaged in anything besides alcohol use I guess.

he might want to rent a disabled person's identity and have all the medical bills covered by Medicaid

OP, I am truly sorry about your brother's situation.
Being able to GET insurance with a pre-existing condition does not mean that it will be affordable. At least as I far as I understand it, they wont be able to refuse your brother, but I am guessing they will be able to ask ridiculous amount of money monthly for it.. Making sure it is not worth it..
I hope that is not the case.
What state is he in? In Illinois, the High Risk insurance pool (CHIP) would probably be something to look into. Maybe your state has a similar plan?
It is for people that cannot get insurance anywhere else. Check the Health and Human services website for his state.
The state high risk pool would probably be best, because he wont hurt anyone on that group plan. They are all high risk on there. If that is really not an option,I would second looking for employment, any kind that offers insurance (starbucks?), that is another option to get pre-existing conditions covered. If possible try a big size company though... After he leaves, he might also be eligible for COBRA for a year.
That would be my last resort.
Does the bill include the cash customer discount? He should be able to get a hefty discount on charges. Though $100K for cancer treatment seems "low" so I guess it does.

If there is anything you can do for your brother, it is to offer your help managing all the bills. He should definitely call the hospital financial department (though.. I am not sure, you also want to make sure they don't refuse him treatment. Research that before calling).
The National Patient Advocate foundation might be able to help as well.

Finally: Share his story around you. as much as you can, you might avoid someone else to end up in this situation.

Ok so I am doing more research..
Apparently the PCIP plan is the national plan existing until 2014. That would be what he needs, but they ran out of funding from Congress and cant take anymore enrollees
https://www.pcip.gov/

Try to find info with your state asap , he might still be able to enroll with a local plan.

Check your state benefits OP, here in NY there is a "bridge plan" offered by GHI & Emblem Health to in-state residents, the plan allows for pre-existing conditions. I hope your brother receives the best care for a fast recovery.

psyteet1 said:   soundtechie said:   helpful first, then snarky.

Helpful: Is he able to move in with someone, become a member of their household, then get covered under their insurance? In general, he should get the best care possible as soon as possible, never delay care because of money.


Snarky: Could you please answer the following: has your brother ever smoked? dipped? Engaged in a sexual relationship that might cause him to have HPV in his throat? In general what are his risk factors for throat cancer? Did this throat cancer just come from nowhere?


Doctor said it was just real bad luck and without cause. One of those things that "never" happen. Never smoked or really engaged in anything besides alcohol use I guess.


Alcohol use has a higher correlation with oral cancers than tobacco use... but they are usually such rare cancers, it's hard to statistically say anything.

cbdo2007 said:   Beginning Jan 2014 he can get insurance through anybody with no waiting period thanks to the Affordable Care Act Pre-existing Condition clause. The plans will be available on your state's Health Insurance Exchange starting October 1st so I would encourage him to sign up as quickly as possible to make sure he can start using the benefits Jan 1.

Otherwise, sounds like he'll just have to go out of pocket until then. Have him get some estimates for treatment plans for the next 6 months-1 year from a couple of different doctors, with costs included and then he can make an informed decision for what to do for the next 7.5 months. Good luck!


Bold: In all likelihood no they wont unless maybe he lives in Maryland. It's highly likely that at least 45 if not all states will miss the deadline and likely by a huge degree. The Feds are way behind as well for a program for non compliant states. It will be years before a lot of this rolls out and the only exception to that is the mandates placed on the private sector that they had to comply with since they can actually move(they have to), the government bureaucracies are as slow as molasses.


Baucus is retiring because Obamacare implementation is basically flailing in the wind at this stage. Some were speculating that a lot of it will just collapse under the bureaucracies own inability to implement such a crazy law. Most(including myself for the time being) believe that they're just going to slog through it for the better part of a decade more before a lot of the issues can be worked out.

I mean I'm hearing problems across the board. Just an example last week: They are at least a year after they can appropriate the funds to just get HHS databases to interface with the IRS. Apparently the IRS database is like 14 years old and they're wondering if they have to basically redo all of the IRS IT just to meat Obamacare requirements. Every week they're hitting a new snag that will take forever to fix.

What state is he in?

Can he get a doctor to diagnose him with a debilitating back injury - enabling him for medicaid ?

soundtechie said:   
Snarky: Could you please answer the following: has your brother ever smoked? dipped? Engaged in a sexual relationship that might cause him to have HPV in his throat? In general what are his risk factors for throat cancer? Did this throat cancer just come from nowhere?


Who hasn't done that? At least 50% of the adult population has a form of HPV. 7% of the population has a form of oral HPV - age is a "behavior" that increases the risk of oral HPV as well as smoking and greater sexual activity. Of that 7% only 1% are linked with the HPV strand that has been shown to increase the likelihood of oral and cervical cancers (HPV 16).

That's beside the point, has your brother only had one opinion on the matter? Was a biopsy done and an H&E stain used to diagnose it? What stage is the cancer in?

I only ask because there is a certain amount of misdiagnosis with the diagnostic instrumentation that are used to detect these types of cancers. I don't want to give any false hopes, but a second opinion will help confirm such findings. If he has all the symptoms of throat cancer then chances are good that he surely has it.

There may be targeted therapies if he shows certain gene expressions too, ones that work particularly well if he's a responder. The quoted 100k cost of therapy for this sounds like a course of therapy is already presumed. If you and your brother have not done this already, I recommend seeking out all the possible treatments and being as well educated as possible in the matter.

Does anyone wonder why health care funding is so screwed up in this country?

First, go without health insurance, but only until you need health care, then wonder WTF to do and why no one wants to pay for your treatment.
Second, be able to buy into a national insurance plan, since now they can no longer refuse you regardless of how sick you are, and how much care you're going to need.
>
>
>
Health care system implodes!

Because of his changed situation, he may very well qualify for Medicaid. He should explore this with the social workers at the hospital where he is getting treated and/or at the local eligibility office. He should be sure to stress his unexpected, recent diagnosis of cancer, and that he has no other prospects of insurance, and that his income is going to be interrupted for the immediate future, due to the treatments. In this type of situation, I have seen some workers bend over backwards to provide medicaid, food stamps, and transitional or even permanent income-based housing. Hope he gets a good eligibility officer when he goes in for the interview.......He may have to spend-down non-retirement assets. He should try to make his contributions to eligible retirement plans for this year ASAP (and fully report them in his application) as retirement assets.

It was over a decade ago, but it might be worth it if still available. At harbor-UCLA you could go through the ER and pay a small amount up front and all care was paid for if admitted to the hospital. This was 15 years ago and I am not exactly sure of the specifics. Call and ask.

Move to Canada.

If he is poor, discuss it with their charity department and get him signed up with Medicaid.

psychtobe said:   Does anyone wonder why health care funding is so screwed up in this country?

First, go without health insurance, but only until you need health care, then wonder WTF to do and why no one wants to pay for your treatment.
Second, be able to buy into a national insurance plan, since now they can no longer refuse you regardless of how sick you are, and how much care you're going to need.
>
>
>
Health care system implodes!
. Re paying for treatment... End of life treatment, typically older, so people can live an additional short period of time costs more than what your getting at, if your picking and choosing. Funny how smokers are taken to task, but people who are overweight and have diabetes aren't. I'm sure there are others I could mention. Personal choice is the same. You deciding.

My first thought was might he be able to establish residency in another country or one that has reasonablly priced expatriot health insurance?

atohmc said:   Move to Canada.
If he's paying cash for treatment look at Thailand or Vietnam.

* It depends on the state, but many states provide insurance for those at high risk and with pre-existing conditions. Coverage with this insurance is poor and premiums are very high.
* It depends on the state, but he many be able to obtain insurance through his business. If he obtains business health insurance, almost always pre-existing conditions do not count.
* He can get a job that provides health insurance, get covered, quit, and then go on COBRA.
* He can move to a state where obtaining insurance is easy with pre-existing conditions.

With some work, your brother should be able to obtain insurance, but you need to act fast before the bills start piling up.

Need to know which state he lives in.

BradMajors said:   * He can get a job that provides health insurance, get covered, quit, and then go on COBRA.The fact that he should have to do this rather than getting on COBRA from the start is astounding.

psychtobe said:   Does anyone wonder why health care funding is so screwed up in this country?

First, go without health insurance, but only until you need health care, then wonder WTF to do and why no one wants to pay for your treatment.
Second, be able to buy into a national insurance plan, since now they can no longer refuse you regardless of how sick you are, and how much care you're going to need.
>
Health care system implodes!


that is the thing.. single payer or not, national healthcare or not, we all pay for other's healthcare one way or another (or many). It is foolish to want to keep doing it the way we do. We are just being scared of what we don't know.
60% bankruptcies are due to medical bills , from people that HAD health insurance. We pay for medicare, medicaid, states program but we also pay in other indirect ways (foreclosed homes, bankruptcies, financial aid, insurance cost rising when someone in the pool gets sick when most healthy people are not insured and contributing..)
If all these indirect costs were taken into account, I am sure we could figure out ways to do this better while covering everyone at a lower cost than the current one.

and avoiding tragedies like a 26yr old being diagnosed with cancer whose first worry is the financial cost of it.

It will take a long time, but it will change. It has to. Lets hope it changes for the better.


OP: if the final cost ends up being around $100K, it is really a lot of money but not insurmountable. It is less than what a lot of 26 yrs old have in student loan. And some will probably be forgiven (not the case of student loan). I know is it not really reassuring thoughts, but it IS manageable.

thelord said:   
that is the thing.. single payer or not, national healthcare or not, we all pay for other's healthcare one way or another (or many). It is foolish to want to keep doing it the way we do. We are just being scared of what we don't know.
60% bankruptcies are due to medical bills , from people that HAD health insurance. We pay for medicare, medicaid, states program but we also pay in other indirect ways (foreclosed homes, bankruptcies, financial aid, insurance cost rising when someone in the pool gets sick when most healthy people are not insured and contributing..)
If all these indirect costs were taken into account, I am sure we could figure out ways to do this better while covering everyone at a lower cost than the current one.

and avoiding tragedies like a 26yr old being diagnosed with cancer whose first worry is the financial cost of it.

It will take a long time, but it will change. It has to. Lets hope it changes for the better.


OP: if the final cost ends up being around $100K, it is really a lot of money but not insurmountable. It is less than what a lot of 26 yrs old have in student loan. And some will probably be forgiven (not the case of student loan). I know is it not really reassuring thoughts, but it IS manageable.
A good read is the Great Risk Shift... talks about all of the social safety nets from the 30's how how that risk is shifting to individual. Depends on what kind of society you want to live in. So if I post negatively about 401k's, High Deductible health Care... it stems from that. It's not that Govt or private business can do it better, but ultimately who can withstand the risk, a 26 yr old or society.

rufflesinc said:   BradMajors said:   * He can get a job that provides health insurance, get covered, quit, and then go on COBRA.The fact that he should have to do this rather than getting on COBRA from the start is astounding.

How would he get on cobra when he currently has no insurance at all?

If your brother were to get married, spousal coverage options might kick in. Many employer group plans allow adding a spouse to health insurance due to marriage being a "life event". Not sure how they treat preexisting conditions however.

OP it's important for your brother to accept various realities that will happen here so that he doesn't end up wasting time, money, and energy trying to control some element that he's not going to be able to fix. Specifically I mean...
1) His credit will get trashed. It's not even worth defending at this stand point. Once he accepts that as basically a guaranteed outcome he will be able to make much more effective decisions.
2) He will likely blow through all of his savings. That said while he has it there is some bargaining power that cash holds to avoid the dreaded 'rack rate' at hospitals. The rack rate is the bill rate that assumes a high delinquency and default rate on medical bills. That cash should be used to find deals where ever he can find them and that includes looking at hospitals in other states or even out of the country. Often times the price difference is large enough that the plane ticket is still way worth it. Also in healthcare price does not even remotely close correspond to quality. Often times it's more the opposite due to the nature of how 3rd party payer(government and insurance) messes up price incentives(hospitals that are really good at something try to keep their prices in line while ones that stink rely upon 3rd party payers to pay exorbitant bills when they get a few cases).
3) Hospital charity care might help a bit, but mostly it will probably be in how much his payments are. My guess is that those bills will probably still accrue in almost their entirety it's just that the payments will be manageable.
4) He's only 26 he has a long life ahead of him. It's not worth it trying to wait for pre-existing conditions to be banned in the future to receive treatment then. He's just going to have to take the brunt of it until that happens.
5) State high risk pools or the federal one when it does get refunded is what he should be looking at for coverage now. I'm not positive if that will help in the pre-existing space until the end of the year, but my guess is that is doubtful to expect there wont be a pre-existing condition clause in there.
6) **He should line up his next week with free introductory meetings with every bankruptcy attorney in town to procure as much information as he can about what lies ahead of him. Those bankruptcy attorneys deal with medical debt all of the time and are probably the best experts on medical debt, bills, etc. after treatment occurs.
7) Medical debt is not easily dischargeable in bankruptcy proceedings, but credit card, PLOC, auto debt(cash out refi), personal loans, etc. are much easier. He should look at and discuss with those bankruptcy attorneys pulling out every single available dollar of easily dischargeable debt he can get his hands on. Not only will that cash come in handy in potentially bargaining and shopping treatment, but it is much easier to handle in the future. You should also discuss with those bankruptcy attorneys when would be a good time to pull that maneuver. If some charity care forgiveness can happen in the future maybe he'll want to rely upon non medical debt first and then charity care last or maybe you meet with them over finances and then after providing all of that pull out all of the liquidity after they agree to certain charity care. I don't know maybe someone else can chime in there with better info.
8) It might also be worth looking at diving his personal income into Medicaid territory for them to pick up a lot of the bill. Probably not worth it especially if that would negatively impact his income as a self employed person years into the future, but at least something that should be explored.


*****Ultimately, the last line that he should be 100% focused on is bills after it's all done. For most people we would be talking about wage garnishment. That is the one thing out there that you absolutely want to avoid. So the ultimate thing financially he should be always looking at is:
A) How can I structure things so that I'm in the best position to discharge as much of this cost as I can when it's all over
B) If there is medical debt left over that I can't discharge than how do I do everything in my power to set myself up to prevent judgements, liens, and wage garnishment if I ever wanted to go back to a salaried position instead of self employed.

You want as much of that to be impossible to collect in the future so that he can do his best to just make it go away because if that bill gets huge(well in excess of $100k) than once you start adding interest to it and if they can find a way to collect on him in the future he'll probably be paying on it the rest of his life. $20k in savings let's say is peanuts to that risk.

Lastly, he needs to make it a near full time job to figure out everything he can about this process. I never walk into something that has any noticeable consequence on my life without procuring as much information as I possibly can. I know I want to have better information than 99% of the people that have sat in my seat. He should be calling up everybody from bankruptcy attorneys, to medical debt negotiation firms, to hospital administration departments, to people who have been through major medical bills, to healthcare advocate firms, to healthcare foundations, etc. and if required he should pretend to have a completely different situation if it's necessary to procure that info(obviously with no real name provided) and he should never pay any of these people for that information and instead call back and get someone else if he hits a roadblock on the phone.

If in a months time he knows this whole system inside and out better than most of it's own participants he'll make out fine. If he trusts his entire life's finances to these people he could make a mistake that could eat him alive for a lon time. No one will better look out for his situation then himself so there should always be a very limited amount of trust granted to anybody he deals with from here on out to 'take care of things' for him.

Best of luck to your brother and I wish him well.

thelord said:   psychtobe said:   Does anyone wonder why health care funding is so screwed up in this country?

First, go without health insurance, but only until you need health care, then wonder WTF to do and why no one wants to pay for your treatment.
Second, be able to buy into a national insurance plan, since now they can no longer refuse you regardless of how sick you are, and how much care you're going to need.
>
Health care system implodes!


that is the thing.. single payer or not, national healthcare or not, we all pay for other's healthcare one way or another (or many). It is foolish to want to keep doing it the way we do. We are just being scared of what we don't know.
60% bankruptcies are due to medical bills , from people that HAD health insurance. We pay for medicare, medicaid, states program but we also pay in other indirect ways (foreclosed homes, bankruptcies, financial aid, insurance cost rising when someone in the pool gets sick when most healthy people are not insured and contributing..)

The 60% number is a made up number. In fact, according to one study that pegged the rate at 62%, just 29% of the people thought that their bankrupcy was at all medical related and just 17% was actually caused by medical bills:
http://www.aei.org/article/economics/retirement/clarifying-the-r...

The survey results shown in Table 2 (Page 3) of the study clearly state that only 29 percent of the respondents believed that their bankruptcy was actually caused by medical bills.

According to Himmelstein and colleagues, 28.3 percent of respondents stated that illness or injury was a cause of bankruptcy. They also reported that medical bills contributed to the bankruptcy of 60 percent of this group. Multiplying the two figures together, Dranove and Millenson conclude that 17 percent of their sample had medical expenditure bankruptcies.

I believe in NY state you can be accepted in an HMO with a pre existing condition. As an aside laryngeal CA is often treated by radiation not chemotherapy. May need a second opinion.

Not sure how the expected bills break down in terms of hospital / doctor/ chemo drugs, but most pharmaceutical companies that sell chemotherapy (branded/ not generic) have "patient access" programs that will attempt to make the cost of the meds affordable. Most oncologists are aware of these, but it is something to ask about. Also, there are many cummunity cancer support charities that might be able to work/advocate for him and his medical bills.

Jahlapenoez said:   If your brother were to get married, spousal coverage options might kick in. Many employer group plans allow adding a spouse to health insurance due to marriage being a "life event". Not sure how they treat preexisting conditions however.

All plans should.

stanolshefski said:   Jahlapenoez said:   If your brother were to get married, spousal coverage options might kick in. Many employer group plans allow adding a spouse to health insurance due to marriage being a "life event". Not sure how they treat preexisting conditions however.

All plans should.


If I'm not mistaken though(and I believes this is just one of those quirks in the government providing certain benefits to marriage) the insurance carrier might be able to challenge that marriage as fraudulent like the US government can challenge a marry for visa marriage as fraudulent, correct? And then you have to like to prove you're in love, etc. I might be way off base there, but seeing that definitely entered into my mind given how I know the marriage visa process goes.

1. Despite Republican opposition (yes I'm writing that) the PPACA a/k/a Obamacare will eliminate denials of coverage for alleged pre-existing conditions. And such provision of PPACA is a good law in case there is doubt. At least 25 states currently permit such denials.
2. In NY and in NJ, by state laws, insurers cannot deny providing coverage for conditions or exclude conditions from coverage starting from the date insurance is obtained even if allegedly per existing. Gap time will remain a problem until Jan 2014.
3. In NY, the cost of insurance (premiums) is not correlated with the medical condition, including cancer, heart disease, etc., of the person to be insured.
4. Members of Congress have terrific insurance coverage, among many other "perks," not possessed by non-politicians.

He will be broke within a few months. Don't try to hide assets, use it to save his life. His credit will be gone also. These are facts. Sorry.

Tell him to sell everything not nailed down, free up cash. Can he move in with you? He may need care and that will eat his savings in a split second.


Learn his business so you can continue to earn for him or start hiring some folks to keep the business going. Money is his only chance at good care.

Skipping 144 Messages...
BradMajors said:   NantucketSunrise said:   russ0519 said:   Also as far as being part of a bigger pool when buying insurance when you're self employed, maybe look at https://www.freelancersunion.org/benefits/plans/freelancers-insu...

As talked about many times in past years on Finance forum threads about how self-employed people have nearly NO options for group health insurance,
even though many people who are not self-employed presume that they do,

You don't know what you are talking about. Guarantee issue group business health insurance is available in all 50 states. In 13 states the size of the group can be one person, in the other 37 states the business has to have 2 employees. It is not difficult for a self-employed person to hire someone, perhaps their wife, to make a two person company. (BTW, I am self-employed)

BTW, as I mentioned, the OP since he is self-employed he can obtain business health insurance.



BradMajors, I was not responding to any comment that you made or any belief that you hold.

I responded to the incorrect statement made by Russ0519, who said that the cancer sufferer in question should look into *freelancers'* health insurance.

As to your statement regarding how it's not difficult for an individual freelancer to get business health insurance:
-Not every self-employed person sets themselves up as a business entity. Actually, many choose not to.
-Not every self-employed person who goes to the trouble of setting themselves up as a business entity finds it easy to hire another person. I, for example, do not have a wife, and as a woman, am not likely to.

It's quite far-reaching to say that I don't know what I am talking about. I am an intelligent, thoughtful person who has actually looked into freelancer's insurance, as can be seen in several FW threads from past years. I do not claim to know anything about how businesses with employees can obtain health insurance, so to criticize me for not speaking to that topic is quite silly.



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