Car Dealership Financing Shenanigans

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BTW OP, there is NOTHING the owner of that dealership can do to "make it right". What could he possibly say or do? That was a scam, not a "mistake".

Salesman was first person who asked for my SSN. I refused. F&I mgr. came to "talk" to me. I told him that if I needed to provide them with my SSN in order to give them a check for a car, I'd take my business elsewhere. He left, general manager came over to talk to me. Same conversation. Don't know what position the person who berated me was - he was at the counter when I went in to retrieve the papers they had taken for my trade.

I had visited the competing dealer a few weeks ago when I first started vehicle shopping. That dealership had offered to let me take home a vehicle for an extended test drive, but I declined, as I wanted to do more research on other vehicles first. Visited a different dealer yesterday (different brand) to test drive. That dealer gave me the keys and sent me out on my own for a long test drive. So it's not like I appear to be of shady character to anyone other than the one I tried to give my money to.

I already have email in to competing dealer stating "I have X price from X for this vehicle. If you will match I will buy". We'll see tomorrow.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   It's a 2014 compared to a 2013, so much less in rebate $ and less of a discount, but I would be getting a 2014.
  
Not sure what car you are looking at, but why do you think it is worth spending extra money on a 2014 model?  Unless there was a significant change in the content, it could be essentially the same car.  Both are new and will come with the same warranties.

So you're female, and some random male who as far as you know had nothing to do with your deal went out of his way to berate you? I'll stick with the assumption that he's a salesman unless we learn otherwise. Just hanging around, waiting for his turn to snag a walk-in, but astonishing that he'd treat a  lady that way just to relieve his boredom.

Do you mind revealing his and your racial backgrounds?
If it were 1963 instead of 2013 and in the deep south, I might guess you were black and he was KKK, but even then one would think he'd find a way to belittle you quietly and snidely without making himself look like a lunatic. OTOH, there are a few guys around Chicago, Jeremiah Wright comes to mind, who seem to think that blatant showings of racism are a public virtue.

What - you're going to bring Oprah and her pocket book in it?

FriendlyPeon said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   It's a 2014 compared to a 2013, so much less in rebate $ and less of a discount, but I would be getting a 2014.
  
Not sure what car you are looking at, but why do you think it is worth spending extra money on a 2014 model?  Unless there was a significant change in the content, it could be essentially the same car.  Both are new and will come with the same warranties.

  
Because you lose a full year in resale value depreciation.  The corollary is if your state or locality charges you an ad valorem tax, e.g. Massachusetts, Virginia, Alabama, Arkansas, etc.  Then your tax bill gets smaller much faster if you buy the older model year car.  If the 2014 is a new model, I'd stick with  the 2013.  First year models or redesigns typically have teething issues that are a pain to deal with including higher recall rates, etc.

There is no other new 2013 vehicle in the color and (the lack of expensive) options I want within 500+ miles of me.  Also what NEDeals said.  And it's not a first year model car.  

I am white, salesman is hispanic and the others at the dealer involved are white or hispanic. Race doesn't factor into this.

I think the person who yelled works in the financing area, as he was explaining to me that if someone came in and paid him cash, he'd have to get their SSN to complete a SAR (you don't need a SSN to complete a SAR!). He also mentioned prior dealings with the FBI. I really should have recorded this whole thing.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   I am white, salesman is hispanic and the others at the dealer involved are white or hispanic. Race doesn't factor into this.

I think the person who yelled works in the financing area, as he was explaining to me that if someone came in and paid him cash, he'd have to get their SSN to complete a SAR (you don't need a SSN to complete a SAR!). He also mentioned prior dealings with the FBI. I really should have recorded this whole thing.
 

  
Maybe drugs factor into this?

taxmantoo said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   I am white, salesman is hispanic and the others at the dealer involved are white or hispanic. Race doesn't factor into this.

I think the person who yelled works in the financing area, as he was explaining to me that if someone came in and paid him cash, he'd have to get their SSN to complete a SAR (you don't need a SSN to complete a SAR!). He also mentioned prior dealings with the FBI. I really should have recorded this whole thing.

  
Maybe drugs factor into this?

  Like they were all high?   Sounds possible, but I suspect they were just crooks.

Not all high, just the idiot that thought it was a good idea to yell at OP until she'd really want to get even with them for being crooks. He's either a world class A-Hole, or on drugs, or both.
Otherwise, once she figured out they were crooks she probably would have wasted no more time on them.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   There is no other new 2013 vehicle in the color and (the lack of expensive) options I want within 500+ miles of me.  Also what NEDeals said.  And it's not a first year model car.  

I am white, salesman is hispanic and the others at the dealer involved are white or hispanic. Race doesn't factor into this.

I think the person who yelled works in the financing area, as he was explaining to me that if someone came in and paid him cash, he'd have to get their SSN to complete a SAR (you don't need a SSN to complete a SAR!). He also mentioned prior dealings with the FBI. I really should have recorded this whole thing.

  
If anybody starts talking about the FBI, just ask them for the special agent in charge so that you can follow up.  I suspect they'll shut up quickly. 
SAR= Suspicious Activity Report or what a bank will file if you make funny transactions. There is NO reason why a dealer would file a SAR unless something is really amiss.  

  The dealer might request SSN for an "OFAC" check (office of foreign asset control).  There is a recent thread  about that in this very forum regarding this.  However, they can do their OFAC check without an SSN.   A dealer did it for me under protest for me, because I was paying cash and didn't want to fill out their credit form.  At first they were going to do a credit check on me anyway, but I stopped that by crossing out the contract fine print that permitted  them to do a credit check. 

They ended up getting my SSN to register the car because they said the state DMV required it.  It turns out that the state DMV requests the SSN to register a car, but it is not actually required.  But they did keep their word (after initially protesting) and never ran my credit.  The OFAC check was completed without an SSN and it turns out that I am not a terrorist.  Who knew?

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   I got an email from the dealership owner stating that he will speak to the parties involved and "be in touch". I'll post the name of the dealer after I hear back. It was not the dealer referenced in the article.

As for the deal - a competing dealer has a similar vehicle on its lot. It's a 2014 compared to a 2013, so much less in rebate $ and less of a discount, but I would be getting a 2014. Also won't get the financing .5% discount because this is not a USAA dealer, but I plan to have this paid off in 18 months or so, unless I get invest the $ elsewhere for a better return, so not a huge factor. I sent this other dealer an email stating that I will come in and buy for X price, so we'll see what happens. Even if the problem dealer offered me $1k off, I really don't want to do business with them.

  
I'm going to agree there is no functional difference between the 2013 and the 2014, this all comes down to dollars and cents.  If the scummy dealership is willing to make you the best deal, my recommendation would be to hold your nose and triple check every piece of paper that you sign.  If they're charging you a thousand bucks less and then having 5 auto lenders pull your credit (and getting a $200 spiff from each), fine.  Who here wouldn't take one hard pull for a grand? (Note: the 5 "auto lender" pulls will probably be grouped by the credit bureaus since it is the same type of loan). 

As an additional note, 50 basis points can easily be worked out to make the deal happen.  Let's put my example into numbers here:

Term: 66 Months
Amount Financed: $20,000
Non-USAA Dealer APR: 3.5%
USAA Dealer APR: 3.0%

In the above example, the difference between 3.5% and 3% is $295.50, if it's worth the extra $300 to you to stick it to the original dealership and buy elsewhere, great.  

As much as I hate to recommend this, I would go back to the original scummy dealership, buy the car and hold your nose because:
1. The OP likes the price she is getting.
2. This is the only car like this within 500 miles.
3. OP is saving around $300 on financing through a "USAA" partner dealership.
4. The other dealerships you're talking to I'm sure are acting mortally offended at the way the first dealership treated you.  But then, all the guys in the dealership are just waiting for you to buy the car so they can go have some beers tonight and laugh about that one chick who came in today who bought a car because "we made her feel good!  Ha! Women!" (I've seen this conversation in person many times)

As a side note OP, be careful of extended warranty or additional F&I products.  They're almost all garbage and any profit they feel like they're losing on you they will try to make it up by slipping in that paint protection plan "we thought you mentioned wanting!"

mwa423 said:   As a side note OP, be careful of extended warranty or additional F&I products.  They're almost all garbage and any profit they feel like they're losing on you they will try to make it up by slipping in that paint protection plan "we thought you mentioned wanting!"
  
Extended warranties can be useful, assuming it is the manufacturer's service contract, but the selling dealership is very unlikely to give you a deal, especially if you got a great price on the car. Do ask for a price though.   You have 363 days to buy one before the price goes up anyway (most manufacturers surcharge at least $100 one year after the car sale) and you can buy one from any dealer in the country during the original warranty period.
  For example, there is an excellent Ford dealer in Minneapolis that has very competitive prices on Ford service contracts.  And no sales tax if you don't live in MN   There are similar competitive dealers for Toyota, Chrysler, etc.  I doubt they offer their own car customers the service contract prices they offer on the Internet, unless the customer knows about the Internet price. 

Couple of notes - I worked in a car dealership when I was in college way back decades ago. It was only for a year or so, and I was only the receptionist, but in that year I learned everything that was to learn about how to buy a car. Had no idea at the time how well that part time job would pay off in life lessons. And while I now work a technical job, I do so for a major financial institution, and before my technical role I did lending on the operations end. Every employee at my company is required to take courses on OFAC, SAR, AML, Patriot Act etc. I knew they could run the OFAC report with just my driver's license (which they had). So I have more knowledge that the average Joe off the street who wouldn't know enough not to sign the credit paperwork.

USAA rates are 1.39 for 36 months with .50 off (so 0.89) if you use their car buying service. $ will only be out a short time (18 months planned) unless I can find a better return on my money than the rate I'm paying.

As for the new (2014) dealership talking about me, they have no idea what has transpired with scummy dealership. All they know of me is that several weeks I test drove two vehicles and now I've sent them an email offering to purchase X vehicle for X price.

Scummy dealership is a rough 45 to 60 minutes drive from my home, more if traffic is bad. 2014 dealership is much, much closer to home. (I know I can take car to any dealer for service.(

All I can do is wait and see what tomorrow brings after I hear from both dealerships. I did find one 2013 at a dealer 400 miles or so from home but I really would prefer not to have to do that.

Thanks for the link for that other thread. Apparently I am not the only shady person of questionable character in the world. Oddly, I feel better.

contact the BBB they're sure to set this straight. J/K the BBB is the biggest joke in the industry.

I just bought a new chevy cruze in the chicagoland area and I used Carwoo.com . This is the second time I have used this site and boy it makes buying a car easy and almost fun. The dealers give you the best price for the car you want and they are pretty aggresive at doing it, I saved over 3800.00 bucks on a Cruze. This is a good site here near Chicago and there is no gimmicks and no hidden anythings. I recommend this site since it only takes a couple of minutes and it saves alot of time and dealer pressure is zero.

Well at least it's given us some interesting information for in the future.

If you are in the dealership buying a car and they bring out a blank financing contract - start the camera rolling. Then I'd pick up the blank contract and start walking out and when they start getting all upset, protesting and ask "what are you doing/going?" I'd say I'm heading to the Attorney General with the Blank Contract - I'm sure they would be very interested to know what is going on here at this Dealership.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
I think the person who yelled works in the financing area, as he was explaining to me that if someone came in and paid him cash, he'd have to get their SSN to complete a SAR (you don't need a SSN to complete a SAR!).

 Actually there is a requirement under the Patriot Act to complete a suspicious activity report (SAR) for cash vehicle sales over 10,000. http://www.niada.com/PDFs/Publications/USAPatriotAct.pdf   The form required is IRS 8300 (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf ) and the instructions require a SSN in block 19. http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/sarguidelinesv4.pdf

I believe in your case, the form was not required.  The money was obtained from a loan and should not be considered “cash”. Maybe there was a misunderstanding, and the person be rude to you thought you had a bank draft, which falls into the category of “cash”.  However, the salesman should have known and should not have asked you to sign any blank forms.  Signing blank forms is wrong and screams of a scam.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
USAA rates are 1.39 for 36 months with .50 off (so 0.89) if you use their car buying service. $ will only be out a short time (18 months planned) unless I can find a better return on my money than the rate I'm paying.
 

  
Why would you have any problem finding more yield than .89% over 3 years?

You aren't searching very hard if that is the case.

gooddealie said:   BTW OP, there is NOTHING the owner of that dealership can do to "make it right".
 

  I agree. In most cases, someone who berates prospective customers in front of others would not still be there if management were supervising staff properly. I would definitely post a review to warn others.

I'm guessing the dealership gets a kickback/bonus for every credit application they pass on to their financing arm, even if it's unnecessary. That's one of the reasons the salesman might have been pushing so hard. He also could be having a crappy month saleswise, and was cracking under the pressure. I'd have no sympathy for him, though - the nonsense references to the FBI and SARs make it appear that lying to prospects is something he does regularly. And he may automatically try higher doses of BS with women - some salespeople and service techs try to con women even if it's clear they are professional and well-educated. Some car dealerships operate like it's still the 1960's Mad Men-era, it's bizarre.

Good luck with the other dealership, OP ...

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
USAA rates are 1.39 for 36 months with .50 off (so 0.89) if you use their car buying service. $ will only be out a short time (18 months planned) unless I can find a better return on my money than the rate I'm paying.

 

PenFed offers 0.74 APR percent if you use their car buying service.   https://www.penfed.org/PenFed-Car-Buying-Service/

taranisj said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
USAA rates are 1.39 for 36 months with .50 off (so 0.89) if you use their car buying service. $ will only be out a short time (18 months planned) unless I can find a better return on my money than the rate I'm paying.

 

PenFed offers 0.74 APR percent if you use their car buying service.   https://www.penfed.org/PenFed-Car-Buying-Service/

  And the PenFed buying service is powered by zag/truecar, just like USAA.  But in the fine print for the 0.74% APR: Important: To be eligible you must have been a member of PenFed for at least one year.

taranisj said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
USAA rates are 1.39 for 36 months with .50 off (so 0.89) if you use their car buying service. $ will only be out a short time (18 months planned) unless I can find a better return on my money than the rate I'm paying.

 

PenFed offers 0.74 APR percent if you use their car buying service.   https://www.penfed.org/PenFed-Car-Buying-Service/

  And the PenFed buying service is powered by zag/truecar, just like USAA.  But in the financing fine print: Important: To be eligible you must have been a member of PenFed for at least one year.

I wouldn't want to ride in any car you obtain from the abusive dealership.

Don't reward bad behavior, buy elsewhere. Please.

I had same situation from Texas Motor Fords in Fort Worth, TX. I went through PenFed Car Purchase Program, and the dealership was indeed their network dealership. They did hard-pull on three credit bureau, and refused to give me any paper-works until they get check from PenFed. They ended up lost my paper works later.
Anyhow, PenFed Car Buying Service was such hassle based on my experience. I reported my experience to PenFed, but they told me to report to TrueCars Service.

dshibb said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
USAA rates are 1.39 for 36 months with .50 off (so 0.89) if you use their car buying service. $ will only be out a short time (18 months planned) unless I can find a better return on my money than the rate I'm paying.

  
Why would you have any problem finding more yield than .89% over 3 years?

You aren't searching very hard if that is the case.

  By borrowing, OP is using bank's money to buy car at 0.89%.  Saving own money for a higher yield.

BitemeIamtoxic said:   I wouldn't want to ride in any car you obtain from the abusive dealership.

Don't reward bad behavior, buy elsewhere. Please.
Maybe they'd be losing money on the deal, so really they'd be punished

F&I Guys hate when people outside finance. They hate it because the kickback from the funding gets lost.

I would imagine that was who was yelling at you. He should be a jobless POS, but I don't see that happening.

Scumbags will always be scumbags

I don't get it either. Instead of just losing financing, they'd rather lose an entire sale AND financing (and future service perhaps too).

I recall a similar scenario when I worked on commission at Sears years ago. It was almost better to not have a sale if you didn't sell the Maintenance Agreement with it. The management really pushed us to sell the MAs because it is almost "pure profit" for the store and you didn't want to let your MA Sales to Merchandise Sales ratio get too low.

shadyj said:   
dshibb said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
USAA rates are 1.39 for 36 months with .50 off (so 0.89) if you use their car buying service. $ will only be out a short time (18 months planned) unless I can find a better return on my money than the rate I'm paying.

  
Why would you have any problem finding more yield than .89% over 3 years?

You aren't searching very hard if that is the case.

  By borrowing, OP is using bank's money to buy car at 0.89%.  Saving own money for a higher yield.

  No OP said that the she would be paying that back in 18 months unless she can find a better return on her money. How can she not find a better return on her money than .89%? She can find better than that(even after tax) within particular FDIC insured accounts. Doesn't make any sense. She should keep on the leverage for the full 3 years without question.

^^ To clarify, if I don't use USAA dealer to buy, rate goes up to 1.39. So until I know who I am buying from and what rate I will pay, I can't make any decisions regarding if I will keep loan for full term.

The telling part in all this?
No one is really surprised employees at a dealship treat people this way.
If my wife came home and said she wanted to become a car salesman, I'd divorce her.

This reminds me of when i worked at circuit city, that companies would rather loose a sale then have it sold without a warranty. Customers would be talked down too, it was very unprofessional and a eye opener on how these corporate stores worked. At least i would let the customer know that they had the ability to return the warranty for a full refund after reading the brochure and apologize for how the managers acted.
Sounds like the dealership would rather loose a sale then have it sold without a financial inquire check and the manager got hot headed when the OP/Customer didn't agree. How places like this thrive is very confusing. 

saladdin said:   The telling part in all this?
No one is really surprised employees at a dealship treat people this way.
If my wife came home and said she wanted to become a car salesman, I'd divorce her.

  
eh... I'd drive her until the wheels fell off first.

NEDeals said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   There is no other new 2013 vehicle in the color and (the lack of expensive) options I want within 500+ miles of me.  Also what NEDeals said.  And it's not a first year model car.  

I am white, salesman is hispanic and the others at the dealer involved are white or hispanic. Race doesn't factor into this.

I think the person who yelled works in the financing area, as he was explaining to me that if someone came in and paid him cash, he'd have to get their SSN to complete a SAR (you don't need a SSN to complete a SAR!). He also mentioned prior dealings with the FBI. I really should have recorded this whole thing.

  
If anybody starts talking about the FBI, just ask them for the special agent in charge so that you can follow up.  I suspect they'll shut up quickly. 
SAR= Suspicious Activity Report or what a bank will file if you make funny transactions. There is NO reason why a dealer would file a SAR unless something is really amiss.  

  The dealer might request SSN for an "OFAC" check (office of foreign asset control).  There is a recent thread   about that in this very forum regarding this.  However, they can do their OFAC check without an SSN.   A dealer did it for me under protest for me, because I was paying cash and didn't want to fill out their credit form.  At first they were going to do a credit check on me anyway, but I stopped that by crossing out the contract fine print that permitted  them to do a credit check. 

They ended up getting my SSN to register the car because they said the state DMV required it.  It turns out that the state DMV requests the SSN to register a car, but it is not actually required.  But they did keep their word (after initially protesting) and never ran my credit.  The OFAC check was completed without an SSN and it turns out that I am not a terrorist.  Who knew?
 

  
A customer is never supposed to be told that a SAR report is being filed on them. On the other hand, if you bring in more then 10K in cash, they will file a fincen form, and let you know about it. SAR is not a fincen form. A SAR is about trying to circumvent the rules, or doing something blatantly suspicious.

saladdin said:   The telling part in all this?
No one is really surprised employees at a dealship treat people this way.
If my wife came home and said she wanted to become a car salesman, I'd divorce her.

  Just don't sign any divorce-related documents with blanks in them.

pkny said:   This reminds me of when i worked at circuit city, that companies would rather loose a sale then have it sold without a warranty. Customers would be talked down too, it was very unprofessional and a eye opener on how these corporate stores worked. At least i would let the customer know that they had the ability to return the warranty for a full refund after reading the brochure and apologize for how the managers acted.
Sounds like the dealership would rather loose a sale then have it sold without a financial inquire check and the manager got hot headed when the OP/Customer didn't agree. How places like this thrive is very confusing. 

  
See also my experience at Sears above.  It is a symptom of treating a customer as a "mark" instead of a client. 

yupkisama said:   I had same situation from Texas Motor Fords in Fort Worth, TX. I went through PenFed Car Purchase Program, and the dealership was indeed their network dealership. They did hard-pull on three credit bureau, and refused to give me any paper-works until they get check from PenFed. They ended up lost my paper works later.
Anyhow, PenFed Car Buying Service was such hassle based on my experience. I reported my experience to PenFed, but they told me to report to TrueCars Service.

  Wow, I used the PenFed system to purchase an Acura here in Houston and I had zero problems.  The Dealer, Gillman Acura, actually matched PenFed's finance rate via their in-house financing department.  I just cringe seeing everyone's awful experiences here.  Where you all trying to purchase domestic brand cars like Ford, GM, etc.?  I think that might be a factor as well...

Richardito said:   
yupkisama said:   I had same situation from Texas Motor Fords in Fort Worth, TX. I went through PenFed Car Purchase Program, and the dealership was indeed their network dealership. They did hard-pull on three credit bureau, and refused to give me any paper-works until they get check from PenFed. They ended up lost my paper works later.
Anyhow, PenFed Car Buying Service was such hassle based on my experience. I reported my experience to PenFed, but they told me to report to TrueCars Service.

  Wow, I used the PenFed system to purchase an Acura here in Houston and I had zero problems.  The Dealer, Gillman Acura, actually matched PenFed's finance rate via their in-house financing department.  I just cringe seeing everyone's awful experiences here.  Where you all trying to purchase domestic brand cars like Ford, GM, etc.?  I think that might be a factor as well...

  Did they give you any incentive in addition to matching the PenFed finance rate ?   Otherwise if they are just going to match it, what is the point of running your credit with them if you already have financing in place at the same rate.   To compare apples to apples with the OP, what would have been the dealership's reaction if you told them no I don't want to give you the opportunity to match the rate.    You may or may not have left as satisfied with them.

Richardito said:     Wow, I used the PenFed system to purchase an Acura here in Houston and I had zero problems.  The Dealer, Gillman Acura, actually matched PenFed's finance rate via their in-house financing department.  I just cringe seeing everyone's awful experiences here.  Where you all trying to purchase domestic brand cars like Ford, GM, etc.?  I think that might be a factor as well...
  
I doubt PenFed would like that very much if they found out.  Essentially the dealer helped some other financial institution steal your business.



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