Car Dealership Financing Shenanigans

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USAA's response is that while the program goal is to "sign and drive", participating dealers are not obligated to do that.

No word yet from either dealer, unless they've left a voice mail on the machine at home.

marketingmike said:    
I doubt PenFed would like that very much if they found out.  Essentially the dealer helped some other financial institution steal your business.
 

  
How so?  If they matched the rate, that's not "stealing" that is competing.  PenFed and Truecar/Zag still got a kickback from the sale. 

Dealers are tricky now about the negotiation too, even if you don't mention your financing until the end. I had everything settled in regards to pricewhen I bought a Hyundai Sonata a few years ago, we went back and forth and I finally shaved another $500 off their "lowest price" to a price I was happy with. Then, he asks about financing and I told them I already had a rate someplace else. He asks if they can try to match my rate and I say no because I already have that rate, so I don't need that rate twice. He goes and talks to the "manager" and says the last $500 he took off was some fake dealer something-or-other but that's only if you finance through them. So I went ahead and used their financing at the same rate as my other place cause it wasn't worth $500 to me at that point to walk away.

So the question is how much would the savings have to be for you to go through with the deal vs walk away? $100 I probably would have walked away on principle...$250?...hmmmm...

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   USAA's response is that while the program goal is to "sign and drive", participating dealers are not obligated to do that.

No word yet from either dealer, unless they've left a voice mail on the machine at home.

I can understand that. What I can't understand is why they would disregard a member dealership that asked a customer to sign a blank contract.

That should have gotten their attention.

OP - Have you considered asking the non-shady local dealer to do a vehicle trade with the shady dealer for the 2013 you want?  That way you get the 2013, current rebates and hopefully a similar good deal, but don't have to deal with the BS.  While the shady dealer may make a few bucks to transfer the car, it probably won't be nearly as much as he would make selling directly. 

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   
  
Once you know the deal's sunk, it's time to whip out your phone and start recording the drama and put the abuser's antics on youtube.

Similar example: 14 year old Parker stands up for his rights.

This is from the WA State Office of the Attorney General:

WA State Office of Attorney General: Car Dealers Buying Precautions  

"A savvy consumer should be aware of some common misleading tactics used by car dealers.
We see the tactics mentioned below as serious violations of the Washington State Consumer Protection Act
and want to know if you have been subjected to any of the following.
If you would like to file a complaint based on unfair or deceptive sales tactics,
please file a complaint or download a paper complaint form here or call us at 1-800-551-463

"Blank Contracts – Sometimes a dealer will ask you to sign a blank document and tell you that
the dealer will fill in the information later.
Don’t sign a document until it is completed fully to your satisfaction."

"Statements that do not bind you – If you are asked to sign a statement to the effect that you "agree to buy a car when terms can be agreed upon," the salesperson may try to insist that, because you signed such a statement, you are legally bound to buy a car. That is not true. You should not sign such a statement in the first place: even if you do, it does not legally require you to buy a car. When negotiations break down, you are free to walk away."

"Cash deposits – If a salesperson asks for a cash deposit to show "that you are serious about buying," you are under no obligation to provide such a deposit. You should be suspicious when asked to provide one. It is an unfair practice for a salesperson to take a cash deposit and then refuse to return it if you do not sign a contract."

"Holding keys – Salespeople will sometimes ask for the keys to your car "in order to evaluate it for trade-in purposes." This is a reasonable request but you should insist that your keys be returned to you after the test drive. It is an unfair sales practice for a salesperson to keep your keys while using high pressure sales tactics to get you to buy."

If one needs to sign a blank contract to prove they're not shady, perhaps they should have shown good faith by signing one for you.

cbdo2007 said:   Dealers are tricky now about the negotiation too, even if you don't mention your financing until the end. I had everything settled in regards to pricewhen I bought a Hyundai Sonata a few years ago, we went back and forth and I finally shaved another $500 off their "lowest price" to a price I was happy with. Then, he asks about financing and I told them I already had a rate someplace else. He asks if they can try to match my rate and I say no because I already have that rate, so I don't need that rate twice. He goes and talks to the "manager" and says the last $500 he took off was some fake dealer something-or-other but that's only if you finance through them. So I went ahead and used their financing at the same rate as my other place cause it wasn't worth $500 to me at that point to walk away.

So the question is how much would the savings have to be for you to go through with the deal vs walk away? $100 I probably would have walked away on principle...$250?...hmmmm...

Should have refinanced it the next day.  I believe in some instances the deal has to stay in place a couple months for dealer to keep kickback. You refinance, no kickback.

NEDeals said:   I don't get it either. Instead of just losing financing, they'd rather lose an entire sale AND financing (and future service perhaps too).

I recall a similar scenario when I worked on commission at Sears years ago. It was almost better to not have a sale if you didn't sell the Maintenance Agreement with it. The management really pushed us to sell the MAs because it is almost "pure profit" for the store and you didn't want to let your MA Sales to Merchandise Sales ratio get too low.

  The reason is, they can finance that same deal to the next person that isn't as smart about the situation as Op.
They'd rather piss you off and make you go elsewhere at that point, than lose their pants and be happy about it.  

Instead of BBB, Yelp the cr@p out of the scammers. Have some friends and family leave Yelp reviews about your experience as well.

foghorn19 said:   Instead of BBB, Yelp the cr@p out of the scammers. Have some friends and family leave Yelp reviews about your experience as well.
  
I dont know that this really even works anymore due to the consistant bad press Yelp has been given in the media. When I read Yelp reviews about a place all I see are people who didnt get free shit or who are mad at life. Theres nothing in Yelp that portrays positives aspects about any business.

Tom9999 said:   OP - Have you considered asking the non-shady local dealer to do a vehicle trade with the shady dealer for the 2013 you want?  That way you get the 2013, current rebates and hopefully a similar good deal, but don't have to deal with the BS.  While the shady dealer may make a few bucks to transfer the car, it probably won't be nearly as much as he would make selling directly. 
You don't have to be specific about where the car comes from. Just ask if the dealership you wish to deal with has, or can obtain via fast dealer trade, a car matching the description of the one you want. You happen know that it's the only vehicle fitting that description within 500 miles, but neither dealer has to be made aware that you know that.  Let the dealership you wish to trade with make their deal. The shady dealership doesn't need to know that you're going to be the final buyer. You are not a party to their inter-dealership deal. The deal you have will solely be with the ethical dealership you choose to deal with - period.

I ended up getting my car through a dealer trade. The dealership I bought it from never told me where it came from, but I did a Google search of the VIN and found an online feature sheet for the car that came from the original dealership's website. And yes, it happened to be from a dealership I preferred not to deal with directly. I considered it a win-win that it worked out that way.

Of course, now that you've shown interest in that car at the original dealer, they may not be interested in "trading it" to another dealer. Seen it happen more that once, especially if the dealer is on the shady side (which it sounds like you're saying).

Best course of action may be to just wait and get what you really want in a 2014, be prepared to get something that is *close* to what you want for the price you want, or have to pay more to the shady dealership to get exactly what you want...

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   

Other than walking out, sending email to dealership owners and purchasing elsewhere, any suggestions on who to contact to inform of this situation?  Or just let it go?  
 

  
I think if I liked the deal, I would have offered to leave the e-check and let it clear without picking up the vehicle.  Just ask them how long it takes to clear the check.

saladdin said:   The telling part in all this?
No one is really surprised employees at a dealship treat people this way.
If my wife came home and said she wanted to become a car salesman, I'd divorce her.

  
HA. Wait til' she starts bringing home those checks from financing...

I did consider leaving the e-check, letting it clear and then going back. If this would have been mentioned as a possibility before I was berated, I probably would have done it. This came up too late and too much damage had been done. They offered to bring it to me even because I stated I couldn't get back to the dealer with my work schedule and other things going in this week, but that would have meant someone would technically be driving my car and I couldn't have that.

Opusnbill7 said:   Of course, now that you've shown interest in that car at the original dealer, they may not be interested in "trading it" to another dealer. Seen it happen more that once, especially if the dealer is on the shady side (which it sounds like you're saying).

Best course of action may be to just wait and get what you really want in a 2014, be prepared to get something that is *close* to what you want for the price you want, or have to pay more to the shady dealership to get exactly what you want...

  
If the good dealer is willing to trade, all the OP needs to do is call the d-bag dealer back and tell him what she really thinks about them, with maybe a threat of report to the attorney general, Yelp, BBB, etc.  Once that bridge is burned Mr. Shady might be happy to turn it over to the nice dealer that happens to call five minutes later. 

complain to USAA.

I had a dealership in Cincinnati not honor a USAA price 2 years ago. I complained and got a call from USAA, then TrueCar and finally the dealership. Of course the ship had sailed by then and there was no way I was going to buy a car, EVER, from that dealership.

Opusnbill7 said:   Of course, now that you've shown interest in that car at the original dealer, they may not be interested in "trading it" to another dealer. Seen it happen more that once, especially if the dealer is on the shady side (which it sounds like you're saying).

Best course of action may be to just wait and get what you really want in a 2014, be prepared to get something that is *close* to what you want for the price you want, or have to pay more to the shady dealership to get exactly what you want...

 
I suspect the shady dealer would be very happy to get that 2013 car off his lot, regardless of how it happens.

To do a fair dealer trade, the good dealer should get something additional (a 2014 is definitely more valuable and more saleable) which the shady dealer may not agree to. From the opposite side, good dealers sometimes refuse to do trades with certain crappy dealers. Not surprising, dishonest/pushy dealers who alienate potential customers also have burned bridges with other dealers in their area ...

We are calling the 2014 dealer the good dealer, and I really don't know that they are a good dealer. No one has responded to my email offering to buy their 2014. Perhaps the person I sent it to is out today, but you'd think a good business would have coverage worked out.

I did have a voice mail on home phone from the salesman asking did I still want to complete the deal.

I have a decent price from a WI dealer on a 2014. It has a tow package (that's a clue!) that wasn't on the 2013 I almost bought but otherwise is the same. If local dealer won't give me a good price then I might be making a little trip north. For $2k I think it's worth it to get the 2014 with the tow package.

dshibb said:   
Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   USAA's response is that while the program goal is to "sign and drive", participating dealers are not obligated to do that.

No word yet from either dealer, unless they've left a voice mail on the machine at home.

What I can't understand is why they would disregard a member dealership that asked a customer to sign a blank contract.
 

  What I cannot understand is why someone would still have an answering machine at home.  

Answering machine at home is to take messages from car dealers! No way in hell was I giving out my cell for car price quotes.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   Answering machine at home is to take messages from car dealers! No way in hell was I giving out my cell for car price quotes.
  
That's why Google Voice is great! 

ever read the newspaper? http://www.suntimes.com/news/zimmermann/13630433-452/avoid-the-yo-yo-never-sign-a-blank-contract-when-seeking-car-financing.html

this is yo-yo contracts (having customer sign blank contract)
Also check your credit report and see the number of times the auto co pulled your credit report.

Of course, the yo-yo works best as the auto dealer can make $ by saying that customer's financing didnt go through and have the customer re-up for worse terms.

talk directly to the GM and tell him that any more funny business and you'll goto the newspaper (show him the article)

Google voice doesn't allow you to be a on 3 hour work conference call and have your cell available for texting during said conference call. Let's not get off topic here! General manager called me and left message. Stay tuned.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   Google voice doesn't allow you to be a on 3 hour work conference call and have your cell available for texting during said conference callI have no idea what that means, but I'm pretty sure you have no idea what GV is.

Since I'm sitting at the "good" dealer waiting, I'll explain. You still a need phone to use Google voice.
Since I work from home the majority of the week and I am on a lot on calls, I use my $10 a month landline to dial in to the webex, freeing my cell.

Good dealer dues not have the color I want in stock here (my mistake, the color listed is not the color pictured). They are trying to talk me into letting them dealer trade at the bad dealer.

taxmantoo said:   
BTW, I agree with you on not outing the dealer until the owners respond, but it would have to be a very positive response to convince me that the DMV, attorney general and the press don't need to know about the blank contract scam. I can see why you're hesitant to deal with any outfit where the F&I manager could hand you a blank contract without being scared to death of getting fired.

  
i also agree; however, notwithstanding a possible positive response from the owners, its very difficult to believe the owners would be unaware of what their f&i employees are doing especially in terms of contractual issues.

illinois attorney general lisa madigans office has always been responsive to my requests for assistance. i wouldn't hesitate to file a complaint immediately: http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/

youll probably help other, similarly situated consumers as well.

dcmorrin said:   I had a dealership in Cincinnati not honor a USAA price 2 years ago. I complained and got a call from USAA, then TrueCar and finally the dealership. Of course the ship had sailed by then and there was no way I was going to buy a car, EVER, from that dealership.
  
In 2005 I made a few attempts at using GM Buypower.
One of the dealers quoted me MSRP minus rebates, and I forget the DIC/DOC fee but it was over GM's $75 cap.
When I told them via email I already knew MSRP, I was expecting a competitive price quote, they told me to come in (60 miles one way) so they could work a deal with me. Basically, they were using GM's one price internet sales system as a lead generator for their showroom.

I simply quoted to them some of the rules they were violating, (Buypower quotes were supposed to be their last, best price, and they weren't allowed to charge more than $75 for dealer add-on fees) and ignored further contacts from them. I can't remember for sure, but I think they even had a salesman call me a couple of times. I still get an email from them every month or so 8 years later, which keeps me from forgetting which Grand Rapids dealer I won't do business with if I ever again think I might want a new Chevy.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   Since I'm sitting at the "good" dealer waiting, I'll explain. You still a need phone to use Google voice.
Since I work from home the majority of the week and I am on a lot on calls, I use my $10 a month landline to dial in to the webex, freeing my cell.

  Google Voice was extremely helpful during my last car purchase.  I didn't give my "real" cell or landline numbers to the dealer, and it sends me an email or a text with a transcript of the voicemail.  I stored the dealers' phone numbers as contacts, so the emails had the dealer name in the subject.  Voicemails are archived as long as you need and easy to search by sender or message content, so you can quickly replay a message that had a certain deal in it. 

Google Voice need not send a call through to your cell or your landline or your computer if you are busy, so you can have calls go straight to voice mail whenever you want. 

I have no idea what the length of a conference call or desire to text on a cell phone is related, but gv will happily take your messages during a conference call and email the transcript for you to read at your convenience.

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   Since I'm sitting at the "good" dealer waiting, I'll explain. You still a need phone to use Google voice.I never said you didn't. Just pointing out that it has nothing to do with whether your cell phone is free for texting while you're on a 3hr conference call.

The beautiful thing about Google Voice is that it can ring through to any, all or none of your other phones.  I shopped around 40 dealers - no way did I want to answer that many calls, and they will call.  My GV is set up to never ring, but it sends me an e-mail with a transcript of the message (at least it tries - the voice recognition is not that great).  I would let voicemails pile up all morning, screen them at lunch, and then call back the one or two that might be promising.  Actually most of them e-mailed also, so the call was just a waste of time so I could ignore 90% of them.  When I was in the final negotiation stage, the dealer I bought from got my real number so we didn't have any delays in communication, but I was 99% sure I was buying from him at that point. 

Also be sure to set up a throw-away e-mail account for a vehicle search.  No point cluttering your regular inbox with the newsletters you end up being signed up for from dealers you never even visited. 

Tinker2Evers2Chance said:   Good dealer dues not have the color I want in stock here (my mistake, the color listed is not the color pictured). They are trying to talk me into letting them dealer trade at the bad dealer.
 

  Did they do the trade?  Did you get the car?  Was it the price you wanted?

I am still deciding between having them do the trade and getting the 2014. You all can weigh in

2013 has 600 miles on it (was at a MI dealer, driven to Chicago for a dealer trade). 2014 has 0 miles. Also has a trailering package that the 2013 does not. I do not have immediate need to haul something, but do see it as a possible need in the future, and it gives me a better vehicle cooling system. 2013 is local. 2014 I'd have to drive 2 hours for (an easy 2 hour drive).

Only vehicle change is the addition of some USB ports in the second row.

Price difference is a little over $2k as the 2013 has an extra $1500 in rebates.

Not sure it's worth buying what's essentially the "old" model year car for that price difference, giving up the trailering package, the 600 miles where I don't know how it was driven and the fact that the "bad" dealer would benefit by getting the car off his lot (and still has on his lot).

I have a call in to my insurance agent to see if there's any difference there.

Feel free to share your opinions.

Did you ever share the name of the bad dealer? Or are you waiting until after deciding whether or not to do the dealer trade?

No, I haven't given the name yet. I also haven't connected with the general manager.

I am leaning towards the 2014. Body man BIL tells me that vehicles with trailering packages should also have improved suspension. Waiting until the 2014 dealer opens to discuss price.

Been watching, don't have much to add except if you're not planning on towing, the "extras" of that package are probably all unnecessary if you're just thinking "someday, I might like to rent a trailer for a short haul."  Also, the chance of those 600 miles being damaging are probably low...  mostly sales demo miles rather than drag racing.  If your plan is to drive it into the ground rather than sell it then model year differences won't matter too much.

ChefJoe said:   Been watching, don't have much to add except if you're not planning on towing, the "extras" of that package are probably all unnecessary if you're just thinking "someday, I might like to rent a trailer for a short haul."  Also, the chance of those 600 miles being damaging are probably low...  mostly sales demo miles rather than drag racing.  If your plan is to drive it into the ground rather than sell it then model year differences won't matter too much.

While the plan is to drive into the ground, we never know what the future will bring. My college kids will be moving several times over the next few years. We also tailgate quite a bit and the electrical connection at the tailgate is very appealing.



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