I havent found any "small" companies that really are competitive. Which small families are you talking about? I am pretty sold on Vanguard atm.

The fund im looking at is the Target Retirement, I like how it automatically reallocates the assets as time goes by. I try to manage the funds within my normal 401(k) so I dont have a lot of time to mess with another set. The expense ratio of the Target account was .21% and they only charge a custodial fee($10/year) if you are under $5000.

I asked a few family members, friends, and even my Prudential financial advisor and they all said they like Vanguard.

Took a deeper look at Vanguard and it does look good. The fee structure is easy to follow (even for a beginner like me!) and Target Retirement is nice. Thanks.

edit: I'm currently with Schwab thru my previous employer's 401k. Vanguard looks like the winner so far, is there any perks for staying with Schwab?

isevenl said:The fund im looking at is the Target Retirement, I like how it automatically reallocates the assets as time goes by. I try to manage the funds within my normal 401(k) so I dont have a lot of time to mess with another set. The expense ratio of the Target account was .21% and they only charge a custodial fee($10/year) if you are under $5000.

I asked a few family members, friends, and even my Prudential financial advisor and they all said they like Vanguard.

larrymoencurly said:bNeta86 said:If you have no idea what you are doing - go talk to a broker. As an financial consultant with a major brokerage firm I can say that the costs associated with dealing with a pro on this stuff really can be worth it for a lot of people.But what if the person chooses the wrong broker, such as the one in my city who once went bankrupt and who likes to sell variable annuities inside IRAs? Both the good and bad ones often sound the same to us laymen.

With only a couple of weeks left to make 2004 contributions to an IRA, I think that any undecided person shouldn't rush into anything that could turn out to be a mistake but just put the contribution into a money market fund IRA at a fund company that charges almost nothing in account maintenance or termination fees.

Dont go to a family shop - go to one of the big time brokerage houses...i.e. merrill...wachovia...a.g. edwards...smith barney. Yes I left a few off that list but you get the idea. Just interview a few of them and find one that recommends good funds. (and for some people - variable annuities are ok in IRAs...very few - but for some extremely risk averse investors that need market exposure it can make sense)

You could just go to a bank - make your contribution and put it in the money market account or 3 month CD - they very rarely charge anything yearly and would let you park the money while you decide what to do with it.

None of those companies I mentioned are going to be going out of business...and they all have managers looking over their trades to make sure that your best interests are taken care of - if you want to, PM me some of their recommendations and I'll let you know what i think. But if you keep your money with American Funds or some of the other good ones you really cannot go wrong. I cannot stress enough the value you will get by going and speaking with someone who does this for a living. Message boards are great - but you need to see the figures for yourself and let someone help you figure out your risk tolerance...what one guy on here says is best might not be something you can handle.

GL to ya - and PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - dont put all your money in GE...its lost 10% over the last 5 years...

bluegenie said:AG Edwards? If you want garbage funds with 6% load pushed on you? And how would you know if you were recommended "good" funds, by the pretty charts they show you?

Variable annuities? Are you on crack recommending that to people? Have you seen your surrender fee? Have you seen the annuity annual fee on top of the expense ratio the funds charge?

Factor in all the fees, realize you're getting milked. If you're so risk averse, put all your money in a bond index or a 7 year CD or something. I'd love to know all the fees you're paying and what returns you've gotten(not that you're very likely to know that).

The bad advice people are receiving on this forum is amazing; if you don't know what you're talking about don't post.

No funds have 6% loads that I sell...I know all the fees associated with annuities - and I know that for certain people they make sense - many arent willing to invest in stocks without the assurance of the insurnace company backing their investment.

Surrender fees dont matter as long as you dont touch the money and use them as retirement savings as they are intended. The annual fees are roughly 1-2% higher in an annuity then outside - but that rate still outperforms bonds over time if the history of the last 85 years tells us anything going forward. This is why annuities are sometimes a good investment - also if you have to retire and start taking income in a down market sometimes they make sense as a protection method. I hope you realize that your blanket generalization that annuities are always bad is just completely uninformed. As a series 7 lisenced rep with my AAMS certification I can assure that I sir DO know what I am talking about.

I was in no way recommending he purchase an annuity inside his IRA - I was merely stating to answer an above post that they do sometimes make sense.

Aparantly you were taken by a broker or something and are just anti having someone help you...you should take a break from the Susie Orman show to realize that most people dont understand investing and need the help that financial consultants provide. The fees are there because they pay for professional advice.

As far as the pretty charts comment goes I hope you realize those charts are the same things you use to chose your no-load funds. You might be more experienced in picking the funds and knowing how to analyze a morningstar report but just becuase you do doesnt mean that everyone should do it. I am confident that an honest broker is better help on a personal level for geckojohn than you could ever provide on this forum...which mind you was what I advocated from the beginning and still am recommending he do...talk to a friend/family member/someone at work that you feel you can trust and see who they use.

Have 2 or 3 people give you some ideas...evaluate for yourself the options and if you dont like paying the upfront load you can always go with a C share and just pay about 1% more for the funds - but that cost is simply what you pay for the advice. If you get more comfortable with it and are confident you can do things on your own then move to a company like vanguard or fidelity and pick them yourself. But I can promise you I have no problems justifying the fees I charge - as people often do completely idiotic moves without help of someone who knows what they are doing.

I can also say there are many brokers out there who live to make money for themselves and not their clients - you have to be aware that someone who doesnt fully disclose the fees to you - or read through the funds prospectus with you before you buy is likely not being completely upfront about it.

Ohh and Blue - I hope you didnt tell your grandmother to put all her money in a bond index or a 7 year CD this year because its safe...and she watches her account drop as rates rise (or is that idea too much for you to handle - I mean fees are the only thing that matter right?)


SO....gecko - to sum up - go to a bank - buy a 3 month CD in a Roth and simply do some research and look around for where you feel comfortable. Have a few different brokers give you ideas - and have them review eachother - eventually you'll feel confident you're doing the right thing. If you have questions about their recommendations feel free to ask - but expect a litany of susie orman / bob brinker fanatics to give you the no-load only arguements. However - for an extra 1% a year you can ask someone else to help you not make a mistake simply because you were unfamiliar with investing.

typed this up quick - so sorry if there are spelling errors and such - didnt proof it.

Wow, you have your lies down cold, great job.

Ok, with the funds you sell, what is the highest front load, what is the highest deferred load, any 12b1 fees? What fee does the annuity charge?

Your series 7 "license" is a joke. Just so everyone knows, series 7 is a useless test you can study and pass in a few weeks. It has no questions on portolio construction, modern portfolio theory or anything else that might help a person be a better advisor.

I love how you throw around fees like 1-2% higher as if it's nothing. What's the average return of your clients? 8%? If so, you eat away 25% of that in fees, that's highway robbery.

As for me, I've never been "taken" by a broker, never used a broker, never used a load fund, never used an active fund(though I would if there were no reasonable passive choices). I also, don't watch any show you'd refer to.

Now about what I'd recommend for my hypothetical risk averse grandmother. Studies have shown that the lowest risk comes at 26% stocks, 74% bonds page 4 so I'd recommend something close to that. And yes, all index, see chart

Stop mentioning for "1% year", you're a lot more than an extra 1%. Vanguard charges an average of 0.25% for their funds. You can get the total stock market index for 0.18%, total bond for 0.20%, total international for 0.31%(includes EM); I'm guessing you were quoting 1-2% above an average equity fund which is around 1.5% right? Ok so 3.5%, great deal.

Yes, the average person doesn't do a very good job of investing on their own, but I don't think you do much to help them either. How honest are you with your clients are you about how you get paid? Do they know how much money you make from their investments? Do you put that amount into dollars?

You probably believe all the nonsense you tell your customers and think you're doing a great job for them while making an honest living, right? Sad, sad.

Why don't you figure out the real return of each of your clients. Don't forget to subtract the loads then compare that with 70/30 Wilshire 5000/EAFE for the equity portion and LB Aggregate for the bond portion, subtract nominal fee(i.e. vanguard), make sure and use longest periods you have available, realize you're just a thief with a license, rinse, repeat.

And don't worry about proofing, you were fine.

bNeta86 said:

No funds have 6% loads that I sell...I know all the fees associated with annuities - and I know that for certain people they make sense - many arent willing to invest in stocks without the assurance of the insurnace company backing their investment.

Surrender fees dont matter as long as you dont touch the money and use them as retirement savings as they are intended. The annual fees are roughly 1-2% higher in an annuity then outside - but that rate still outperforms bonds over time if the history of the last 85 years tells us anything going forward. This is why annuities are sometimes a good investment - also if you have to retire and start taking income in a down market sometimes they make sense as a protection method. I hope you realize that your blanket generalization that annuities are always bad is just completely uninformed. As a series 7 lisenced rep with my AAMS certification I can assure that I sir DO know what I am talking about.

I was in no way recommending he purchase an annuity inside his IRA - I was merely stating to answer an above post that they do sometimes make sense.

Aparantly you were taken by a broker or something and are just anti having someone help you...you should take a break from the Susie Orman show to realize that most people dont understand investing and need the help that financial consultants provide. The fees are there because they pay for professional advice.

As far as the pretty charts comment goes I hope you realize those charts are the same things you use to chose your no-load funds. You might be more experienced in picking the funds and knowing how to analyze a morningstar report but just becuase you do doesnt mean that everyone should do it. I am confident that an honest broker is better help on a personal level for geckojohn than you could ever provide on this forum...which mind you was what I advocated from the beginning and still am recommending he do...talk to a friend/family member/someone at work that you feel you can trust and see who they use.

Have 2 or 3 people give you some ideas...evaluate for yourself the options and if you dont like paying the upfront load you can always go with a C share and just pay about 1% more for the funds - but that cost is simply what you pay for the advice. If you get more comfortable with it and are confident you can do things on your own then move to a company like vanguard or fidelity and pick them yourself. But I can promise you I have no problems justifying the fees I charge - as people often do completely idiotic moves without help of someone who knows what they are doing.

I can also say there are many brokers out there who live to make money for themselves and not their clients - you have to be aware that someone who doesnt fully disclose the fees to you - or read through the funds prospectus with you before you buy is likely not being completely upfront about it.

Ohh and Blue - I hope you didnt tell your grandmother to put all her money in a bond index or a 7 year CD this year because its safe...and she watches her account drop as rates rise (or is that idea too much for you to handle - I mean fees are the only thing that matter right?)


SO....gecko - to sum up - go to a bank - buy a 3 month CD in a Roth and simply do some research and look around for where you feel comfortable. Have a few different brokers give you ideas - and have them review eachother - eventually you'll feel confident you're doing the right thing. If you have questions about their recommendations feel free to ask - but expect a litany of susie orman / bob brinker fanatics to give you the no-load only arguements. However - for an extra 1% a year you can ask someone else to help you not make a mistake simply because you were unfamiliar with investing.

typed this up quick - so sorry if there are spelling errors and such - didnt proof it.

bNeta86 said:The annual fees are roughly 1-2% higher in an annuity then outside - but that rate still outperforms bonds over time if the history of the last 85 years tells us anything going forward. This is why annuities are sometimes a good investment - also if you have to retire and start taking income in a down market sometimes they make sense as a protection method.How can annuities offer higher returns without higher risk? Does the insurance company accept all the extra risk?

Aparantly you were taken by a broker or something and are just anti having someone help you...
The fees are there because they pay for professional advice.My worry is about getting less than professional advice from someone, and simply picking a good advisor itself requires quite a bit of financial knowledge. For example, my own bank's mutual fund person (probably Series 6 license only), seemed to struggle with the basics, claiming that the 12b-1 fee was in addition to the expense ratio and that a certain fund was actually cheap because so little of its expense ratio went to management fees.

I advocated from the beginning and still am recommending he do...talk to a friend/family member/someone at work that you feel you can trust and see who they use.What if those people aren't knowledgeable and don't realize it? Many investors think that they're doing great simply because they're getting more than what the bank pays, even if it's still substandard, or they think that an investment is great simply because it gave a high return, even if it was far more risky than they desired.

I like Fidelity and Legg Mason, I DON'T like T. Rowe Price. Their expense ratios were too high, their accounts required a lot of mailing and signing stuff and wasn't as easy to work with online, and I could tell that a lot of their fees went towards the fancy high grade paper and ink on their quarterly statements.

I like fidelity funds, esp Low Priced Stock (my all time favorite investment) and their Spartan 500 fund has a .10 expense ratio, blows Vanguard's away.

Legg Mason is great because of one guy, Bill Miller. Basically, hiw value trust fund has BEATEN the SP 500 for 14 years straight, nuff said.