Amex Financial Review- probably triggered by overzealous 0% pursuit - UPDATED 12-30-04

So you have a 32k balance with AMEX but you have over 32K going into a 3% savings account ? That doesn't make good sense to me unless AMEX was giving you 0% APR for a period of time.

AMEX approved you for new lines in the amount of $7K plus your original line of $5K. The next thing they know you've run up the $12K in limits to $60K (likely, as you pointed out, to them not seeing all the changes in real-time) and you've borrowed $32K from them.

If I was AMEX I'd be nervous too. You've got their money and they are wondering what you did with it and whether or not they'll be getting it all back.

From previous threads discussing AMEX account reviews you either come up with satisfactory documentation to support the credit line or they close the accounts. I don't think they are going to just forget about the account review if you pay down your balances to $0, they are still exposed to the same risk in the future.

AMEX approved you for new lines in the amount of $7K plus your original line of $5K. The next thing they know you've run up the $12K in limits to $60K (likely, as you pointed out, to them not seeing all the changes in real-time) and you've borrowed $32K from them.

If I was AMEX I'd be nervous too. You've got their money and they are wondering what you did with it and whether or not they'll be getting it all back.

Agreed. I think I had just hoped that no human would ever look at the account. Oh, and the total is $50k, not $60k (not that it matters).

From previous threads discussing AMEX account reviews you either come up with satisfactory documentation to support the credit line or they close the accounts. I don't think they are going to just forget about the account review if you pay down your balances to $0, they are still exposed to the same risk in the future.

I'll admit right here and now that I probably do not have the average daily balance of bank accounts that they would like to see (judging by others' experiences with this), as most of my accounts have only had the 0% money for a month or so. Moreover I disagree in principle for being forced to provide this documentation as I have never been late with a payment with them and simply used the lines they gave me - if they wanted docs they should have asked for them when I applied or when I reallocated lines. Either way I'm mostly just hoping to get a line decrease instead of account closure. We'll see.

DaveHanson said: A longstanding thread on this issue here might help.

FWIW, you are asking for the wrath of the FR department if you:

(a) manage to leverage single digit approvals into a $32K line (congrats on that!) but THEN:
(b) immediately max it out with a BT AND
(c) do the same to the degree that your score into the 500s.

With scores in the mid-high 700s, I had to work like hell to get them to reopen my accounts after they'd had a sizable history and no other increases. Sincere best of luck with this. Your odds of sucess are remote unless you have very impressive business financials and appreciable bank balances, and even then it'll be tough with that credit score.

Thanks for weighing in on the issue. I have spent the better part of this morning reviewing your thread already. I figure my best chance is that she said if they don't get the docs that the accounts will be "reviewed for cancellation". This seems like a softer threat than what others have experienced, and perhaps reflects a change in policy. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. Anyhow, although I'll be disappointed if I lose these lines, I'm not going to be terribly upset; I took on this risk when I decided to play the 0% game and I have plenty of other cards (although I will try like hell to avoid "closed by grantor" on my report - if necessary closing them myself before they can get to them).

Idea: What if I pay the cards off in full, cancel them myself, then call to reopen them in a few months (after my other 0% offers are paid down and my report looks better)? This should short-circuit the financial review. Opinions?

Additional questions I wonder about:

Can I get away with leaving the Blue Cash open if I close the others? Don't want to lose my accumulated rewards.

Will I be giving up the 0% by closing then reopening?

I know no one will know for sure but I'm open to opinions

OP wrote, This seems like a softer threat than what others have experienced, and perhaps reflects a change in policy. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. I'm afraid it's the latter. I've heard this term used interchangeably with the others.

Good luck, and keep us posted.


To all: I hope FW readers consider this as yet another cautionary tale about maxing out cards for 0% BT purposes. OP was told that this was his downfall, and this isn't surprising. As a statistical matter, maxing out a new limit is an extremely high risk behavior. Far better to use, say, just under 1/2 the line, which is MUCH less likely to raise red flags.

I don't follow completely, did you BT the whole 32k into the superior savings account? If so, why not send them the statement showing you have the assests to pay off this debt?

jlgrandam said: I don't follow completely, did you BT the whole 32k into the superior savings account? If so, why not send them the statement showing you have the assests to pay off this debt?

No, they wouldn't allow BT to savings or checking. Sorry to confuse the issue by discussing Superior; the reason I brought it up is because I wanted to use the money in my checking account to pay off the AMEX card, which would have resulted in an overdraft if Superior cashed my just-sent-out account opening check.

Also, although I have the assets to pay them off, by all reports this is not enough for AMEX as they want to see high average daily balances from the last 3 months, which I cannot furnish. Besides, I am opposed on principle to providing the documentation when it is requested in this context.

On a side note, another warning to would-be 0% exploiters - don't overpay Household. The BT I originally did from AMEX was to Household, and I still haven't gotten my Credit Balance Refund check.

They asked me what exactly I was buying at a gas station. I said Christmas gifts.
My line is only 10k, so they didn't do any harm to me.

ILikeDollars, I think it will turn out better if you cancel the cards yourself, than have them do it. It will show out differently on your credit report.

ILikeDollars said: some minor updates:

Paid off most of the balance on the Biz Plat card yesterday (just waiting for some funds to transfer out of ING to finish paying it in full) and cancelled all my AU cards on all my accounts (certainly don't want to risk "closed by grantor" on their reports). Tried calling today to reallocate the business lines, as I anticipated getting them reopened in the future will be easier if they are under the magic $25000 limit. Spoke to the SAME LADY as yesterday, who remembered me. She said they can't reallocate lines until the review is complete. It seems to me that having the account flagged for review means that you will probably talk to the same people whenever you call (or at least that your call is always forwarded straight to the financial review department instead of normal CSRs).

I think after I finish closing all these accounts out, I am going to call AMEX or send them a letter infoming them that as a stockholder with a not insignificant number of shares, I am putting them on Financial Review. Anyone want to make any suggestions for documents I demand that they give me? So far I've come up with the following:

CEO's home phone number and address
CEO's last 2 years of W2s and bank statements
Documentation of all customer profitability scoring methods

That would be a great way to get flagged as a kook. You haven't lent AMEX or it's CEO any money.
Let it go, they haven't done anything wrong or unreasonable.

I would definitely reaise a stink as well if you have done nothing wrong AND paid off all your debt. Planetfeedback can be effective as well as written letters and BBB complaints.

Your buying shares of stock in the open market doesn't send the company a dime, you haven't lent them or their CEO anything.

Account reviews, closing accounts, changing the terms and conditions, etc are all part and parcel of unsecured, revolving credit card lines of credit. It's not unreasonable as it's a prudent business decision on the part of AMEX. It's not wrong as it's neither immoral or illegal.

The simple reality is that you engaged in a series of less than upfront manuevers to increase your credit line to a level much higher that AMEX would have likely granted if you hadn't engaged in the manuevers you did (ie if you simply asked them for the highest aggregate limit they would provide you).

As a stockholder of AMEX I would think that you would approve of a company taking steps to manage their risk.

Good luck but I think you are tilting at windmills with this one. I have no problem with you manuevering AMEX into the credit limits you did and I have no problem with you obtaining a hefty 0% BT from them. AMEX isn't the only company that may cut off your future credit by canceling your accounts (while allowing you to pay off your existing balance under the current terms) when they believe your credit profile makes such a move prudent.

In your particular case the combination of the large credit line and the large balance transfer triggered an account review. That's life, it's their money, and it's not unreasonable .

ILikeDollars said: in a sense they have borrowed money from every single shareholder to run their business. So in that sense I can claim that I have lent them money

No, that's a bond. With common stock a company basically doesn't owe you squat.

OP, you need to decide what your main objectives here are. You can either:

(a) pull out all the stops to try to get AMEX to reconsider, or

(b) Give up prospects for extending the business relationship in the near future, and act to maximize the benefit of accounts that remain and minimize the damage of closure.


I gather SIS is assuming the (b) is your best bet. If so, he's probably right about that--IMO it will be a long, frustrating PITA to fix this, with little prospects for success.

If you only care about (a), it MIGHT help your position some to pay down the lines, thus demonstrating that you have the resources ready to do so. But that's a long shot too. I don't think that keeping the full balance would give you more leverage in the sense that it would increase your odds of forestalling cancellation.


As for telling them off, putting them under review, leading a protest, etc...I agree 100% with dweick. You've agreed that you engaged in unusual, high risk behavior. To be sure, their FR tactics can be ham-handed and sloppy, but they have EVERY right to put you under a microscope given your behavior. You, in turn, have the right to choose to either comply or to tell them to shove it, but it will accomplish nothing to waste your time telling them off for reviewing you.


(typo edit)

AMEX told me that once you are under financial review they CANNOT "let you out", even with a cl decrease...

First off I would like to wholeheartedly thank so many "Finance Forum Heavyweights" for contributing their advice. I do appreciate your knowledge and experience in these matters.

I decided yesterday evening that my plan was to immediately pay off all of the cards and close them myself before AMEX could, as I wanted to avoid "closed by grantor" on my reports, and increase my likelyhood of obtaining credit with them or other banks in the future. Granted, I am giving up approximately $1k in interest over the next year as well as several hundred more in CashBack, but in weighing my options I decided it was my best option. Besides, I have no assurance that the rate would have stayed at 0%, as I did not ask as I did not want to let on (yet) that I was considering the possibility of account closure. Also I did not even think to consider whether or not it would have been possible for me to close the account MYSELF and still keep the 0% rate, as I have never closed an acount with a creditor before with a balance or an introductory rate still in effect.

I admit I can see AMEX's side of this and how they are just trying to cover their butts. However I think it would be much more professional of them to simply be more cautious in their issuance of credit than to hassle existing customers. Had they requested these documents BEFORE extending credit to me I would not have been the least bit upset, and I could have moved on with or without them without hassle. However I will bow to the advice of others here (as well as good common sense) and forgo "putting them under financial review".

On a side note, I mentioned earlier that Household had still not issued my credit balance refund. Well maybe someone there reads this forum, because it arrived Express mail today!

SUCKISSTAPLES said: "closed by grantor" is not a big deal at all. In fact, its much LESS serious than even a $20 collections item for what may be an illegitimate debt.

Do you even KNOW if AMEX is going to LET you close these accounts by yourself while they are frozen? They may still do a grantor close.

From the sequence of events here, It seems you come up with a quick hapahazard plan, then rush into action w/o first considering the ramifications or possible outcomes. Thats not a good way to "play the 0% game". We're talking real money here. $1000 is $1000. Moreover, you havent even thought whether AMEX will look favorably on your "new" strategy - they sure didnt like the previous one. And, you still believe there is some benefit in keeping it "secret" from them. Right about now, being forthright and upfront would likely be a better way to get back into AMEX's good graces, if thats what you desire.

Yes AMEX SHOULD handle things differently, we can all agree on that. They shouldnt issue credit blindly, then pull the FR card at a most inopportune momemnt. But its their cards and their call. We can either live with it or not do business with them.


Argh... had a longer reply but accidentally deleted it... allright, here's the short version:

I have not made my decisions blindly or haphazardly. I have weighed my options and chosen what I feel the best course of action based on my own financial profile and goals, and the experiences of others here on fatwallet as well as on other boards who have also gone through this process. I hope that the actions I have taken will improve future relations with American Express, but if not, I can, as you say, not do business with them.

If every time AMEX pulled a "financial review" a customer immediately closed their accounts, they would exercise more caution in taking such action in the future. I am happy to be sending them the message that their actions are unacceptable and that I as a customer can take my business elsewhere at any time.

welookgoodcom said: Not to be too sarcastic but they probably thank you for taking your business elsewhere since according to their profile you were a risk or abusing 0%(not fitting their target demographic).

You come out with lots of hassle and nothing to show for it but inquiry and unaged account.

They avoid giving you 30k at 0%..

Who do you think wins? exactly.

OP, what is the reason you wanted to keep the paydown-and-close strategy hideen from AMEX? Is there harm in telling "AMEX FR" "I dont desire to share my private financials with any credit card company, but I value my relationship with AMEX, so what would you like me to do - do you want me to pay the balance off, reduce my utilization, ???" Your actions look as if you are intentionnally being uncooperative. If your desire is to have some relationship, it is possible to be cooperative and forthright while maintaining your decision not to provide docs. But with no balance owing, my bet is that they want nothing more to do with someone who knows how to "game" their systems.

I could not find an instance in which they accepted "no" as an answer in response to the request for docs. Those who have tried to bargain with them have failed.This is my interpretation as well. No docs, no cards.or to call at night (when Financial Review is closed) and have a normal CSR close the accounts for me. I am leaning toward the second option, as I could still get a call from FR or retention later (although as I have said, I am not counting on it).Or more plausibly, you could close them yourself, then call back their retention department in 5 1/2 months and say your circumstances have changed, you'd like to reopen. That's perhaps the best chance you have of getting things going with them again. If this is your goal, I agree with this strategy, and it has the added benefit of avoiding "closed by grantor" on your credit reports.Also, I agree that they really should have no motivation for keeping such an unprofitable customer as myself who games their system and reaps the profits. However other credit card companies seem desperate to retain my business despite similar maneuvering so I have ceased questioning their logic in that regard. The difference boils down to the difference in their marketing vs. review departments. The marketing departments at CC companies often solicit all accountholders pretty much indiscriminately, and this is changing relatively slowly. OTOH the review department only gets accounts that, by their own criteria, are likely to cause them grief.

please do keep us updated, AMEX FR stories are always sad but interesting, and those of us who have not yet been under FR can gain good insight