$145,000 at 0% WHAT NOW??!! - need greater return on App-O-Rama 0% money

I am calling all FWFers who have already done the AOR, already done the 0% balance transfers and have money to move, and already have done (or are doing) the HSBC 4.8% online savings, WHAT NOW? I have some ideas (trading stock options), yet I am looking for less riskier ones.

BACKGROUND ON AOR
First – Thanks FWF for all the help assistance and information. Especially all the AOR RAMA veterans –
xerty (http://www.fatwallet.com/t/52/425743);
Bksavings (http://www.fatwallet.com/t/52/592813);
eugenev (http://www.fatwallet.com/t/52/541760)

Also, I am a huge lurker of FWF veterans - Clearanceman, Davehanson, mbaker4096, SIS, and Didyousearch. While I became addicted FW via the investment/rental property thread (I read the whole thing one weekend as I have rentals in TX) via FW I learned that my very good – not great - credit score of 780 – could be used for something more than a good mortgage rate. Pursuant to lessons learned at FW, I did the AOR thing, I now monitor my FICO at privacyguard (2 month trial period) and myfico.com (( 20% off membership) with codes found both here and at www.creditboard.com))

After my recent AOR I have the following CC:

Cards received where I will (or already have done) a 0% BT
Chase Cash Plus Rewards 5% Cash Back, $100 GC and 0% 12 months - $48,000 CL (combined old lines to new cards)
Citibank Platinum Select 0% 12 months - $32,000 CL (combined old lines to new cards)
Citibank Professional $100 GC and 0% 12 months - $25,000 CL
Schwab $100 GC, 1.9% 12 months - $28,500 CL
RBS 0% 12 months - $15,000 CL
HSBC 0% 12 months - $12,000 CL
Advanta Business Platinum 0% 15 months - $16,000 CL
Schwab $100 GC, 1.9% 12 months - $28,500 CL
HSBC 0% 12 months - $12,000 CL
Discover 0% LIFE - $15,000 CL (Begged for more CL – they would not give me a higher CL and told me I did not have enough DEBT to necessitate – Are they getting keen to 0% people)
BOA 0% 12 months - $7,200 CL
Att Universal 0% 12 months - $5,000 CL

Cards received where I will not do a BT:
American Express BLUE $5,000 CL
American Express Platinum Business $25,000 credit limit, $250 statement credit
American Express Gold Business $250 statement credit (already had one, cancelled it and got new one for 1 year and $250 statement credit)
(http://www.fatwallet.com/t/52/595755 - thanks GTFAN)

I also opened up a Citibank banking inet acct and will link a credit card for the $200 – need to keep $1,500 or 2 bill pays per month or there will be a maintenance fee

What I have learned so far.

#1 I did do the AOR thing all over 2 days over 5 weeks ago. My fico score has not dropped that much due to inquiries. It really was a non-issue. So far – knock on wood.

#2 Certain CCs really liked that I had large no-debt credit lines. – Citibank, Advanta, Schwab. Other CC- namely, Discover CC – did not at all and would not grant me a higher CL on its 0% for life. I begged for more – threatened and asked for retention, yet they would not give me a higher CL and told me I did not have enough DEBT to necessitate it ??? (WTF?!)– I wonder if they are getting keen to 0% people)

#3 I initially desired to keep each CC utilization under 50% for fico protection, yet as inquires and new credit lines appeared on my report and my fico did not drop, I could not leave money on the table ( a la mbaker4096) and am 85-90% utilization on each 0% card.

#4 I opened an HSBC online savings 4.8% and free checking accounts to pull money from my credit unions. The online savings was simple. I talked to someone on the telephone to open up the checking and it is still FUBAR – very frustrating.

#5 I called each card and asked for the % minimum payment, total the estimated payment and will put 2X that amount in HSBC checking for money to be pulled via each CC auto pay. At this juncture, I am not worried about paying over the minimum (this issue raised in another thread)

#6 I make sure to make a small purchase and pay it off every 6 months on all my non 0% BT CC so that none are cancelled and are available for other 0% offers – especially very old lines that help fico.

#7 I am on google-mail (gmail). And, I have folders (labels) to keep copies of all scanned promos (chase GC offer); confirmations of 0% transfers as they are made; and payments (folders per CC and each month) so as to never miss a payment. Gmail is terrific.

#8 CC associates get BIG gift cards/reward points when they do the 0% BT for you. I only do BT via telephone (DYD, davehanson) and I get everything I need from the associate first. If they have any a-hole charateristics – dial tone and recall for more helpful associate.

# 9 I transfer all the BT offers into my checking either directly or through my debit card (yes, I am one of those people who carry a debit card) except CITI who made me take a check?

Problems:

#1, 2,3,4, and 5 – Me, me, me, me, and me – I have an addictive personality.
I was deep in the inet – tech – nazdaq trading in 1993-2001. Made great money. I have been buying gold maple leafs for the last 3 years and have been tempted start selling a few via eBay given recent gold spot ($600/oz yea!). It is very hard to now JUST STOP and only get 4.8% on my money. This ain’t fittin in with my personality. I have been seriously thinking of doing more with the money for a greater ROI. But I do not want to be too risky after all – this is not my money.

So calling all FWFers who have already done the AOR, already done (or doing) the HSBC 4.8% online savings, WHAT NOW? I have some ideas (trading stock options), yet I am looking for less riskier ones.

Thanks in advance

Edit by Moderator: Thank you for participating in the forums. However, this topic has been covered in a recent post Here.

There are plenty of 5%+ short term cds out there. You can even do better with some credit union cd deals and short term bank promos. Set enough money aside in a high yield savings or money market account to cover your minimum payments and stash the rest in cds and/or promo accounts. The strategy is here - CC BT investment thread. The rates are here and here.

I am thinking about either foreclosures when the bubble bursts, stock options on stocks poised to move - i bought RMBS, yet i could have retired with the same $$ in options. Hell,i was thinking about buying maple leafs in bulk and selling on eBay. The mark-up on that site is insane for a single leaf/krugerrand. Yet i have done the eBay thing before and the listing, selling, and paypal fees make you sick (even though i usually overcharged for shipping). But i am so far beyond eBay mentally (kid's play), i would hate to go back.

Not completely risk free - but you could consider an options strategy with say a 5% downside protection?
Look at ADR's/GDR's and the pricing of the underlying securities. In several cases I've seen arbitrage opportunities exist; I haven't looked into the transaction costs but it might be viable.
Emerging market debt perhaps - several countries pay a fair bit above US rates and carry little risk of defult in the short run.

oddball1 said: Not completely risk free - but you could consider an options strategy with say a 5% downside protection?
Look at ADR's/GDR's and the pricing of the underlying securities. In several cases I've seen arbitrage opportunities exist; I haven't looked into the transaction costs but it might be viable.
Emerging market debt perhaps - several countries pay a fair bit above US rates and carry little risk of defult in the short run.
Can you please explain the arbitrage opportunity? How do you sell the underlying shares to take advantage of the arbitrage?

I trade stock options multiple times a week. I cannot believe anyone would consider putting money from a BT into stock options. That's crazy.

quit while you're ahead

How much more are you going to get? 5% more, 7%? It's not like you'll win the lottery . 4.8% is more than enough considering no risk at all. If your tax rate is high enough, I'd consider tbills.

IMO, the risk does not justify the reward.

If you have to gamble, gamble with your own money

andrey0 said: quit while you're ahead

How much more are you going to get? 5% more, 7%? It's not like you'll win the lottery . 4.8% is more than enough considering no risk at all. If your tax rate is high enough, I'd consider tbills.

IMO, the risk does not justify the reward.

If you have to gamble, gamble with your own money

Gambling big with other people's money is the best way to do it. (eg real estate speculation)

I agree with all the low riskers. I am on your team. If i was a riverboat gambler, i would not have asked the conservative and wise that comprise FWF for advice.

I am not looking for stock tips (i can find those myself),and I am not looking for the next 12dailypro.

i know the pit of your stomach feeling of holding options as expiration looms. i was glued to a computer for YEARS. (BUT i loved it!) I am just coming to the FWF trough one more time and, i know many here, are at the same juncture.

I have received many great ideas here. I do not want to lose my credit, investments, family life to make 2 more points. However, in my world, some investments which are deemed riskier to some are simply not to others.

No offense to you, and I tried to explain the reason for the neg.

If you want to make more $$, look here sometimes having some seed money can allow you to make even more in these ventures, with low risk.

for example, I could take 145k and buy 30-60 cheap used cars. I typically make at LEAST $2k on each, so thats 60-120k profit. And even if I cant, Im not gong to lose money...i might just sell for what I paid. so theres a potential 100% return with nearly 0 risk of loss. And its all short term investments that will be done befoe Bt promo ends. Same with buying /reselling stuff in hotdeals on eBay. Huge profit potential, almost 0 risk of loss thanks to store return policies. But it takes more legwork.

swraith said: I guess I just see big downsides to using high risk funds (BT funds from CC) for more speculative type investments. So I guess call me risk averse. Also with the generally short term nature of BT funds RE foreclosures seem poorly suited due to the fact that you absolutely would have to flip the property quickly to cash out your funds when the money goes back to the CC companies.

Not to mention he still has to have cash on hand to pay the minimum payments. That alone is a couple thou a month.

obviously you dont do it all at once. I usually have 6-8 here at this location at any one time.

Sorry guys, I am bit confuse on this App-o-Rama process. Even if you guys increase the credit limit and gets the 0% BT, don't they charge fee for doing Balance Transfer(3%? or $75 dollars). Is it worth it? Also, How're you planning to get the money out and deposit to the bank in order to get the 4.8% saving.

Thanks

$150,000 x 5% = $7,500 Before taxes

assuming 3 0% BT with fees that MAX at $75 and 3 BT with no fees = $225 cost

$7,500 - $225 = $7,275 for sticking money into an online account and setting up autopay on 6 credit cards. $7,275 for 5 hours of work - applying for credit cards, getting CL increases, applying for bank account and setting up transfers, making BT transfers, getting (and saving) emails confirming transfers and payments.

and that's passive. I love to work and I am trying to increase rewards without substantially increasing risk and while also not being flamed here onf FWF as the GREEDY newbie member.

DYS - great idea regarding hotdeals. That is somewhat what I am looking for. I do not want to hand money to someone else and cheerlead. I want participation - and with the cars - expense writeoffs.

The current FICO has to be reduced with all these new cards. Probably for a few monts.

patch96 said: How will 650 (or 620) vs. 780 change my life? Let me know if I am missing something

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=52&threadid=322874&highlight_key=y&keyword1=adverse

AOR credit trashing can lead to mass credit implosion.

Dave takes this to higher level than many of us - he's turned the art into science. You will not go wrong listening to him.

care to share that lucrative occupation/income source?

patch96 said: I spent the better part of an hour trying to figure out "how" you were doing all that you do.While it's still fresh, please let me know if there's any portion of that OP or followups that could be made clearer or more accessible. I get MANY pm's about that thread--since interest appears to be great, I'd rather make it clearer up front to cut down on confusion later...FOR ME What if my fico drops 100 points for % utilization per CC ...How will 650 (or 620) vs. 780 change my life?As that thread indicates, it WILL cut down on the opportunities you have going forward to boost the size of your lines, and land tasty new deals tied to your score (which include a great many, in fact).

It also WILL dramatically increase the likelihood of "adverse action" going forward, as I, DYS, and others have detailed.

Finally, you will simply never know what other opportunity costs you incur with a significantly lower credit score. Higher insurance rates and fewer job offers are just the documented effects that folks who do this currently experience...and most are never even aware that their credit is what ended up costing them.

How do you qualify as an accredited investor? (have had an account with IB for many years)

patch96 said: Regarding FICO damage from inquiries

See in OP where i clearly stated
__________________________________
#1 I did do the AOR thing all over 2 days over 5 weeks ago. My fico score has not dropped that much due to inquiries. It really was a non-issue.
_____________________________

Specifically, 5 points total on all the inquiries - 8
and 5 points on 5 new accounts so far. Myfico.com send alerts to my cell phone so i will honestly list here what happens when all new accounts and % utilization hits.

But i will inform

[

when I did mine the fico didn't take more than 10 point hit, until the cards showed on the report and I brought the utilization on those cards over 90%. FICO took a 100 point drop. If i need something like a mortgage where i need good credit that moment i'll need to bring my utilization below 50%. the new credit also takes a chunk off your score, but not nearly as much as utilization

Nice job, put it in the bank and call it a day.