There are lots of people who like to discount the idea of higher education by saying, "i make millions and I didn't go to college," or "look at Bill Gates, he dropped out,"

The problem with using personal experience as a basis for giving advice is that one can't see the entire picture. Here is some census bureau data showing the "value" of going to school. It's a little dated, 1996, but I doubt things have changed that much.

The average AA degree will net the individual about $116k more in their lifetime than a high school graduate. Bachelors degrees add the following above what an AA person would earn: average $308k, engineering $497k, even liberal arts nets $243k. Stepping up to masters earns one the following above a bachelors: average 180k, engineering $362k, business $375k, liberal arts basically worthless. And finally, increase from a masters to Phd nets the average person $188k, and in science $300k. Law and Medical degrees are the big winners of course, $750k for law, and $1mil for doctors.

This all tells me that on average, education is a good investment. You get to have fun for several years, and still end up making more money in the end.

I want to add in my two cents since I'm in college right now. My parents has always said to me, 'We pay for college, and that's it.' I also have a job right now to support my techy fetish (godamn it) and I'm planning on milking my parents to the fullest. Hrm.. that sounds a bit wrong but, what I meant is I'm taking summer courses and taking the most credits as I can throughout my four years to widen my options after college. As long as they are paying for it because they think it'll help me in the future/become independent/learn the value of working, I should use it. However, I don't want to be dependent on my parents after college because then they'll never respect me as an adult.

I myself don't respect people who continously mooch off parents even after college. I believe if a person goes to college and do well in school, they should be able to get a job to support themselves. Mind, it might not be what they want, but they can always work towards it while living on their own.

oh. and someone mentioned about babysitting and waiting for a package. I don't count that as mooching off. More like a favor kind of system. I help them with say, filling out taxes or calling customer service (they are immigrants, aka not very good at english) and they can return the favor by taking care of my future brats.

jsantab428 said:I'll pay for undergraduate public university...when you see how hard some kids at public university work to manage courses plus work, you realize what a competitive world it is, and you'd better work your own rear end off to keep up. That's what drove me. And xerty said:If your kid is heading to some good college, it's probably better in the long term that they spend their time in high school studying, getting good grades, maybe a scholarship, etc, than working at some menial job for a few bucks. My parents made it clear that my "job" was to do well in school and I got a modest allowance for spending money.

Excellent points. I'd add that based on my 7 years as a college professor at a decent but not great private university--most students there seem to draw the same message jsantab428 did.

And while we're speaking in anecdotes, I'll throw in my 2 cents. I went to that same university as an undergrad because they had a great debate program, good philosophy dept, and they paid my full way. As a consequence I never had to work for money (just internships, summer teaching at debate camps, and the like.) While the university wasn't great, that freedom enabled me to truly stand out: triple major, become valedictorian, win our only national debate championship, work for then House Speaker Foley, get to know several profs well, etc. And all that was key to getting a full fellowship at a first tier university for a Ph.D.

The only reason I bore you with these details is to stress that had I been working anything like most of my recent students, I couldn't have achieved anything like that collegiate record--and thus couldn't have funded my private grad school. And this was very clear to me at the time...not just with the benefit of hindsight.


jsantab428 also said:I wouldn't pay for graduate school....Better off to get out in the real world first, and then maybe go back to grad school part time on your own dime when (if?) you figure out what you want to be when you grow up.That's often true. Additionally, you can often make real money in a real job while doing grad school.

Some call it mooching- I'm not so sure.

My situation- I receive $200/month for each of my children from my father. I deposit this money into a 529 plan. While I also contribute to this plan, my dad's efforts are very helpful, and will really make a difference when college comes around. (Kids are 4, 2, and <1.).

This is something that he wanted to do, and offered to, unsolicited. The desire to help and assist your relatives is very natural in my opinion. He realizes that college will be darn expensive when my kids get there, and he wants to assist me in paying for their education, with the hopes that they can get through college debt free. I don't consider it mooching to accept this money. I think of it as accepting a gracious offer. Yes, it is true that this relieves me of upping my deposits to the 529 (if I so desired), so in theory I have more cash to spend/invest elsewhere.

That same position in 1989 for someone right out of school paid $18K. I know as my friend took it and lived with 3 other women in a small apt, just so she could be on her own. I am actually surprised that it is up to $30K already.

For someone right out of school and in a non-tech field, $30K is actually a good starting salary in NYC. I agree that he needs to find a way to cut corners,less take-out, cooking more, if he has an oven/stove, going out less, etc, to lose the $300 monthly dependency. Even moving to another borough and getting another roommate, maybe he can knock off another $100 (although 2br rentals are pricey.)


asteinb said:Sounds like the kid needs to find a job that pays more than $30k. Or move out of Manhattan.

For every story of some parents cutting their kid off and the kid 'seeing the light' and achieving financial success, you have many stories where the kid's career and financial situation lingers because finances hold them back from overcoming certain hudles like getting more education, changing jobs, etc.

Many of my former classmates recieved help from their parents. Their parents bought them a house/condo, paid for school, and all they had to do is focus on getting good grades. Today, their houses/condos have doubled/trippled in value (putting their net assets above 1M) and they have cushy lawyer/consulting careers. In contrast, a lot of the hard working students without parental support were so broke by undergrad time that they didn't pursue grad school - nor had the means to pay for it - and today they don't own a home and probably won't be able to buy one, and definately don't make as much money.

My point is that good kids + help = great idea (investment). Bad kids + help = bad idea (subsidy).

manuel said:$30K starting with a college degree(anywhere) is a great example of the futility of the wrong college education. The market is telling the graduate "your degree is worthless"; and yet the graduate and their parents paid the same price for the degree as one in chemical engineering(52k). OTOH engineering students have less time to get piss-drunk on their parents cash.

Note the 52k average starting salary is nationwide - in NYC I would guess this is a lot higher.
Agreed. I'm sorry, but $30k is NOT a good starting salary in NYC. With the liberal assumption that you are working 40 hours a week for 48 weeks a year, you are making about $15/hour pre-tax. I know for a fact you can make more than this temping in NYC, and I'm quite confident that if you are serious about starting a career that will give you a decent lifestyle down the line, you can find a job with a salary better than $30k in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

I'm in my 20's and almost all my friends get some kind of help from their parents. The friends receiving the help are all hard working and trying to be successful in their careers and take this help from their parents as support to achieve the goals they want. If these friends were slackers, their parents would stop giving them this financial help.

My parents also give me different forms of financial help. They never write me a check, but they help in other ways like letting me live rent free in their house during and after college. My parent's reasoning was, "It's better for you to live at home and save the money that you'd use to pay rent instead of paying it to someone else." I did save that money too, I didn't take it as, "Oh, now I can live a more lavish lifestyle."

I think you have to distinguish what type of help parents are giving their kids. Are they helping in the support of their kids reaching their goals, or are they helping so their kids can be comfortable and not have to think about goals.

DaveHanson said:But that assumes that the market is the proper arbiter of a value of a college degree. (Not saying you disagree, but one could infer this from your post).
If you're a grade or even high school teacher, you'll need a college degree, yet you're lucky to start at $30K in many areas. I would never conclude that a bright , hardworking student who went on to become a devoted teacher had received the "wrong education". That's not to say that a person should be entitled to help because they picked a low status or low-paying job--at least not necessarily. But the thinking that salary = worth or success is one reason we have way too many lawyers and not enough good teachers.


I disagree - I feel the market is the only and thus the proper arbiter of the value of one's education, etc - especially since we're viewing this from a parental 'financial' help perspective.

Certainly one could imagine a english major who loves teaching and feels her education was worth it even though the job only pays 40k. But that same english major could find that she hates it and feels trapped by the embedded investment for the credential(my wife's case). I don't deny the existence of non-financial factors but they're too individual to use for valuation. Same reason we don't get to sell our old car for another 5K because we 'love' it.

Note - there are many fairly low paid lawyers; and many barely qualified teachers with seniority making 70-80k. I think it's impossible to postulate that there are 'too many' or 'too few' of anything - the market and the incentives it creates are a much better judge of this than I.

asteinb said:manuel said:$30K starting with a college degree(anywhere) is a great example of the futility of the wrong college education. The market is telling the graduate "your degree is worthless"; and yet the graduate and their parents paid the same price for the degree as one in chemical engineering(52k). OTOH engineering students have less time to get piss-drunk on their parents cash.

Note the 52k average starting salary is nationwide - in NYC I would guess this is a lot higher.
Agreed. I'm sorry, but $30k is NOT a good starting salary in NYC. With the liberal assumption that you are working 40 hours a week for 48 weeks a year, you are making about $15/hour pre-tax. I know for a fact you can make more than this temping in NYC, and I'm quite confident that if you are serious about starting a career that will give you a decent lifestyle down the line, you can find a job with a salary better than $30k in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

By not good you mean not even livable.... You can't live in Manhatten on 30k a year. Figure taxes get his salary to 25k (roughly) and he pays 1100 a month X 12 month 13,200 in rent plus food and bills will easily put you in the 25k range. Not sure why the person in the article chooses to live in the city when you can find a cheaper apt in one of the other bouroughs and commute on the subway. In my opinion that is just not a sound financial decision.

I wouldn't go so far as to say anything but an engineering/computer degree is useless. Let's face a lot of jobs out there aren't technical and people with any kind of degree can do those jobs as they require communication skills or people skills or whatever. Perhaps media research analyst pays very well down the line but until this guy in the article gets down the line he should not be paying to live in manhatten unless its a job requirement (not a convenience). You can live somewhat comfortably at 30k but not in manhatten and you have to be very mindful of your budget in terms of eating out and such.