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Talk about CDs here not in CD Thread.

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The CD interest rate picture appears to be coming into sharper focus.

Them that wants 'em likely already has their PenFed... (more)

shinobi1 (Dec. 04, 2013 @ 3:35p) |

I have a local bank offering 2.25% APY on a 5-yr CD (Washington Savings Bank, Philadelphia, PA). I have no experience wi... (more)

blueribb (Dec. 18, 2013 @ 10:27a) |

Excellent advice forum.

MIGHTYMACHONE (Apr. 13, 2014 @ 4:37p) |

new CD rate thread

this thread is used as a discussion thread about the CD thread that is linked above, we heard you liked threads so we put a thread in your thread so you can read threads while you read threads!

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Great Idea and would be even better if we could get mods to put this as a sticky right under the CD rate thread. I agree that we don't need to clutter up that thread with discussions about CDs but there is so much more to finding the right CD than just it's rate

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scott1961 said: Great Idea and would be even better if we could get mods to put this as a sticky right under the CD rate thread. I agree that we don't need to clutter up that thread with discussions about CDs but there is so much more to finding the right CD than just it's rate
Good idea, Scott. I'm going to hit the "alert moderators" hyperlink for the OP and suggest that. Perhaps if you and others do as well it will get done.(?)

Edit: I tried it and was denied.

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Continuing my disscution with daschs in this thread...

dasachs said: Good points, mhesidence. I respectfully disagree with your conclusions however so can we bat this around a little further ?

There are some respectable observers - including the Fed - who think the economy will slow early next year or later this year. Some futures markets are predicting a cut in Fed rates in the first half of next year.

So there is a reasonable chance of Fed rates declining early next year or late this year.

Before this happens, once it becomes clear the Fed has paused, with a chance they may cut in the near-future
(< 6 months), history says that often market rates start declining.

I conclude that there is a non-negligible chance that CD rates may start declining by the end of the year.

And, historically, Fed rates change significantly over time frames of 6 months to a year most of the time. It is relatively rare when Fed funds remain constant for a year or more.

These kinds of observations lead me to the strategy of locking in historically high rates (like ~ 6%) when they occur (like now) for a long time, and then paying penalties to secure even higher rates if rates go up significantly further.

For example, if rates go up by 1%, if your penalty is 3 months interest, you make it up in about one year; if the penalty is 6 months, you make it up in about two years. After the make-up period, you start to make more money over the remainder of the duration of the new CD.

If rates go up by 2%, cut the make-up periods in half.

If you start to view penalties as a neccessary part of 'doing business', you avoid the huge problem of having to pick the precise times that rates peak. And with long-duration CDs and a willingness to pay penalties, you aren't forced to renew at times when rates may be low.


I agree the economy could slow, however the feds primary goal is to fight inflation. Thus it looks like two more rate hikes end of this month and again in Aug. I would think keeping money liquid (~5% savings account) or getting into very good CU cd rate if you can find one would be good short term. Then wait until closer to Aug. to see if its worth locking in a long term CD.

I would guess think that our two methods may depend upon exact penalties extracted for breaking a CD. I used 90 days as an example, not sure what typical is for a long term CD. It probably varies widely.

Using this rate chaser calculator plug in 5% fo r current apr and 6% for new apr and 90 days interest loss. "break even" is 450 days. However that doesn't consider getting a shorter term keeping money liquid for now won't have ANY lost days of interest. So 450+90, well a little less than 90 since the liquid rate is slightly lower. Right?

OTOH if rates have peaked, then you've locked in a higher rate for 5? years. While someone waiting for a peak might get half a point less? I guess it depends upon timing and quick someone jumps once the rates start to drop.

Anyway 5 years is too long for me, execpt for maybe my IRA and that money can stay in stock market for now (well I'm all cash right now but that's because the market has been sucking lately and I stopped out of everything with out too much of a drop).

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Am reposting from the original CD thread- but let me know if I misunderstood the intent of this new thread.

The 5.61% 7 month internet rate on World's website sounds good for those of us not near a branch. Has anyone had recent experience with their internet accounts?

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moshulu said: Am reposting from the original CD thread- but let me know if I misunderstood the intent of this new thread.

The 5.61% 7 month internet rate on World's website sounds good for those of us not near a branch. Has anyone had recent experience with their internet accounts?


(hoping geo123 sees this )

I don't have any experience with World but right now 6 month T-Bills are at 5.33% and if you pay 5% in state income tax that works out to an equivalent 5.61% (obviously greater than 5.61% if you pay more). TreasuryDirect's website is very good and people swear by their experience buying in this route.

Apologies if this doesn't belong in the CD thread. I just thought I throw in a just as safe alternative for the product you were considering.

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moshulu said: The 5.61% 7 month internet rate on World's website sounds good for those of us not near a branch. Has anyone had recent experience with their internet accounts?
Hmmmm, yes, I think most of the FW regulars have at one time or another had CD's with World (yours truly is certainly a member of that rather non-elite group). World is also one of the reasons that many of us have now switched to t-bills What would you like to know about that company?

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AnonymousCoward said: (hoping geo123 sees this )Geo123's sees it, indeed. I am still waiting for a response to my PM, btw

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moshulu said: Am reposting from the original CD thread- but let me know if I misunderstood the intent of this new thread.

The 5.61% 7 month internet rate on World's website sounds good for those of us not near a branch. Has anyone had recent experience with their internet accounts?

Just did my first ever CD with them, 7 month 5.61%. Have to say so far they seem excellent. Filled out online application on 6/7 and mailed check overnite, account opened 6/8. Received welcome kit on 6/12 and was able to go online instantly. Was probably the easiest CD I Ever did. All you have to do is mail back one printed page along with your deposit. Better hurry up as I think it ends 6/24. You will have 10 days to get your deposit to them after you apply online

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World is one of the better banks out there -- they do what they promise and their promotional rates are quite good. The disadvantages of dealing with World are as follows though: they initially pull your credit, require a fairly annoying CD application and offer the best rates for new money deposits only (so you won't get good renewal rates), only accept deposits by check (which means that you lose interest while the money sits in your checking account). Further, you cannot instruct them to close the CD at maturity until you are within 30 days of your maturity date -- they'll otherwise disregard your instructions and automatically renew your CD at a ridiculously low rate. At maturity, you have to wait for a check from them, which means that your money won't be earning any interest during that period.

As AnonymousCoward posted above, T-bills on the other hand offer the following advantages:
1)No paperwork to fill out (saves you time);
2)No lost interest since the money is ACHed in and out of ANY account with ANY bank out there (your t-bill starts earning interest the day the treasury initiates the withdrawal even though the money isn't withdrawn from your account for a day or so);
3)No concerns over remembering to redeem the CD at maturity to avoid automatic renewals at inferior rates (matured t-bills are redeemed automatically);
4)you can open a t-bill with proceeds from one account and have the matured proceeds deposited into another;
5)state income tax exemption combined with very competitive yields beats the yields on most 6-month CD's out there.

Edit: grammar, spelling. I just can't construct normal sentences today for some reason.

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geo123 said: World is one of the better banks out there -- they do what they promise and their promotional rates are quite good. The disadvantages of dealing with World are as follows though: they initially pull your credit, require a fairly annoying CD application and offer the best rates for new money deposits only (so you won't get good renewal rates), only accept deposits by check (which means that you lose interest while the money sits in your checking account). Further, you cannot instruct them to close the CD at maturity until you do so within 30 days prior to maturity

No credit pull done on me and very simple application took maybe 3 minutes. I like funding by check, It took 3 days for World to pull my funds so I made about $40 in overlapping interest. You are starting to sound like a T-Bill salesman

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scott1961 said: geo123 said: World is one of the better banks out there -- they do what they promise and their promotional rates are quite good. The disadvantages of dealing with World are as follows though: they initially pull your credit, require a fairly annoying CD application and offer the best rates for new money deposits only (so you won't get good renewal rates), only accept deposits by check (which means that you lose interest while the money sits in your checking account). Further, you cannot instruct them to close the CD at maturity until you do so within 30 days prior to maturity

No credit pull done on me and very simple application took maybe 3 minutes. I like funding by check, It took 3 days for World to pull my funds so I made about $40 in overlapping interest. You are starting to sound like a T-Bill salesman


1) Wow, I wish I had ~$93,000 to throw around.
2) Won't you spend that $40 paying for a wire back to you or you'll give up that amount in lost interest while they mail you a check?

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scott1961 said: No credit pull done on me and very simple application took maybe 3 minutes. I like funding by check, It took 3 days for World to pull my funds so I made about $40 in overlapping interest. You are starting to sound like a T-Bill salesmanHaha, the US government sells t-bills, so I don't have to worry about people accusing me of being a salesman.

You'll make overlapping interest with t-bills as well, since the money isn't withdrawn from your account for at least a day or two. Since even high yield checking accounts still earn lower rates that MM/savings account, you are still losing interest by keeping the money in those.

Most importantly, if the yields are similar, the amount of hassle involved with CD's vs. absolutely no hassle involved with t-bills (you initiate a purchase and literally forget about it until the money is automatically credited back to the account) makes the choice quite easy. Perhaps I should petition the US Treasury to start paying me commission for all this advertising?

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Oh, by the way, World's CD application may only take you 3 minutes PER APPLICATION. Whenever I open CD's, I always split them up into multiple $10K ones so that if something happens and I suddenly need the money, I only have to break one small CD. The disadvantage of this approach, of course, is that for, let's say, $100K it takes you 30 minutes just to complete all the &^$&^# applications!

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geo123 said: You'll make overlapping interest with t-bills as well, since the money isn't withdrawn from your account for at least a day or two. Since even high yield checking accounts still earn lower rates that MM/savings account, you are still losing interest by keeping the money in those.

That's why you should write a check from a MM account (which hopefully also provides free checks).

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geo123 said:

You'll make overlapping interest with t-bills as well, since the money isn't withdrawn from your account for at least a day or two. Since even high yield checking accounts still earn lower rates that MM/savings account, you are still losing interest by keeping the money in those.

Not my high yeild checking, is 5.21% now and will be over 5.40% come 7/1
geo123 said:
Most importantly, if the yields are similar, the amount of hassle involved with CD's vs. absolutely no hassle involved with t-bills (you initiate a purchase and literally forget about it until the money is automatically credited back to the account) makes the choice quite easy. Perhaps I should petition the US Treasury to start paying me commission for all this advertising?

I find no hassle in doing CDs, After doing a couple of hundred of them over the years I guess I have gotten pretty good at it. Also you forget one benefit that a CD gives over T-Bills. Many do them so they can take the interest monthly to supplement income. I even do that on some year+ ones . It makes it seem like you are not tying your money up for a long period when you get that check or ACH transfer every month

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scott1961 said: Not my high yeild checking, is 5.21% now and will be over 5.40% come 7/1You're with MBNA, correct? I thought that it had a $15K minimum and a 5.06%APY. Where's the 5.21% coming from? Do you seriously expect them to follow the fed's lead and bump it up by 25bps? Regardless, even at 5.06%apy and unlimited checkwriting, it is quite good.

I find no hassle in doing CDs, After doing a couple of hundred of them over the years I guess I have gotten pretty good at it.But this isn't brain surgery -- even if you are "good" at opening CD's (does it mean that you type fast? ), you're still losing interest transfering money around (World won't ACH it back to you) and are still filling out unnecessary applications while not getting any more money back (the yields are almost the same).

Also you forget one benefit that a CD gives over T-Bills. Many do them so they can take the interest monthly to supplement income. I even do that on some year+ ones . It makes it seem like you are not tying your money up for a long period when you get that check or ACH transfer every monthNow, that's a soft ball -- since you're earning the APR instead of the APY, you can easily do the same thing with a t-bill. The Treasury only withdraws the amount that, after compounding, will equal the face amount, so you don't need to do anything extra with a t-bill to accomplish the same thing. Besides, there's always the option of buying a smaller t-bill.

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AnonymousCoward said:


2) Won't you spend that $40 paying for a wire back to you or you'll give up that amount in lost interest while they mail you a check?
Will pay about $20 for either wire or FED X. Good thing is if I have to wire my bank does not charge me for incoming. I will not lose a single day of interest

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geo123 said: scott1961 said: Not my high yeild checking, is 5.21% now and will be over 5.40% come 7/1You're with MBNA, correct? I thought that it had a $15K minimum and a 5.06%APY. Where's the 5.21% coming from? Do you seriously expect them to follow the fed's lead and bump it up by 25bps? Regardless, even at 5.06%apy and unlimited checkwriting, it is quite good.


Here is a heads up warning to you, geo123. Scott has a magical checking account that was available for brief moment in time more than half a year ago. He loves to trot it out whenever he can (it was great find, who can blame him). But under no practical circumstances can we copy him, he is specially grandfathered in. Additionally, it requires $200,000 at all times or the rate drops below 1% or something terrible.

yes, I kid Scott, it is a great account for you and even though I call it "magical" it is very real

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geo123 said: scott1961 said: Not my high yeild checking, is 5.21% now and will be over 5.40% come 7/1You're with MBNA, correct? I thought that it had a $15K minimum and a 5.06%APY. Where's the 5.21% coming from? Do you seriously expect them to follow the fed's lead and bump it up by 25bps? Regardless, even at 5.06%apy and unlimited checkwriting, it is quite good.
Scott's account isn't good for new accounts. He got in when the getting was good.

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scott1961 said: AnonymousCoward said:


2) Won't you spend that $40 paying for a wire back to you or you'll give up that amount in lost interest while they mail you a check?

Will pay about $20 for either wire or FED X. Good thing is if I have to wire my bank does not charge me for incoming. I will not lose a single day of interest

So you'll pay $20 for wire or overnight. And you said you overnighted it there so presumably you paid $20 then too. So overall you spent $40 and it is a net wash with the overlapping interest (actually less when you account for taxes ...or can you deduct wire transfer from interest income?).

Either way, I'm not against you Scott, I admire your ability to glean money out of your massive stacks of cash. Hopefully I'll be there too, someday.

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Cheap said: Scott's account isn't good for new accounts. He got in when the getting was good.Thank goodness. I was starting to think that I missed yet another great deal that is right under my nose.

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So magical account or not, I am still trying to figure out how Scott (or anyone else out there) is better off with World than he would've been with Uncle Sam. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is not but I think I better keep it to myself

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AnonymousCoward said:

Here is a heads up warning to you, geo123. Scott has a magical checking account that was available for brief moment in time more than half a year ago. He loves to trot it out whenever he can (it was great find, who can blame him). But under no practical circumstances can we copy him, he is specially grandfathered in. Additionally, it requires $200,000 at all times or the rate drops below 1% or something terrible.

yes, I kid Scott, it is a great account for you and even though I call it "magical" it is very real

Yep it is a checking account that pays the current one month libor rate, Today's rate is 5.302% and moving up everyday should be a bit over 5.40% come 7/1 which will give it an APY over 5.50%. Very close to the T-Bills but totally liquid and use it to pay all my bills. This account moves in line with our fed rate so has kept me out of the T-Bill party but if they eventually ungrandfather me I would start doing some T-Bills

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What's the minimum balance requirement, Scott? It's with MBNA, correct?

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geo123 said: What's the minimum balance requirement, Scott? It's with MBNA, correct?

I'll let Scott correct me although I think it is this.... linky

Although like I say, he gets straight Libor and $200,000 minimum while if you were to do it today you'd get Libor-margin and a $50,000 minimum.

Edit: Margin=.5% we suckers don't get.
Edit2: linky # 2

Note that if you read it carefully, the deal was dead before it actually was posted in it's own thread.

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geo123 said: So magical account or not, I am still trying to figure out how Scott (or anyone else out there) is better off with World than he would've been with Uncle Sam. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is not but I think I better keep it to myself
As long as it seems the Fed is going to keep raising rates my account will continue to move up just like your T-Bills. I have been following the T-Bill thread to check rates but since I live in a State with a flat 5.3% tax the difference in rates between my account and T-Bills is extremely small and not worth the trouble

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AnonymousCoward said: geo123 said: What's the minimum balance requirement, Scott? It's with MBNA, correct?

I'll let Scott correct me although I think it is this.... linky

Although like I say, he gets straight Libor and $200,000 minimum while if you were to do it today you'd get Libor-margin and a $50,000 minimum.

And I get a $1,000,000 Max instead of that measley $500,000 they now give

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geo123 would indeed make a great salesman for the Treasury ... and I wished he'd post his excellent summary of T-bill benefits in the T-bills thread also! Especially the one about not having to worry about renewal at maturity is a good one. Although there are banks/CU's which allow you to specify in advance what to do upon maturity. Penfed allows to specify and change online anytime, whether to reinvest dividends and what to do with dividend payments and with the principal upon maturity.

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AnonymousCoward said:

Note that if you read it carefully, the deal was dead before it actually was posted in it's own thread.

That discussion thread was started about 7 weeks after I posted the new account the first week it was offered in the "The Daughter of The Mother - Checking, Saving, and Money Market" thread. You will see it was heavily negged and put down, Glad I did not listen

Text
Date Posted: Oct/30/2005 10:55 AM
Rating:

Interesting new account offered by Salem five bank. It's called the "The Platinum Cash Account" It sets it rate every month by going with the 1-Month Libor rate. If you go back and check historic 1-Month Libor rate it becomes pretty clear that most of the best MM and savings account the last few years seem to stay right with it. Right now it's rate is 3.95% but look for it to go up on Nov 1 as they change to new 1-Month Libor rate on 1st of every month. Account is not for everyone as it has a $200,000 Min, But with it you get unlimited check writing, debit transactions and free ATMs worldwide. Might be a nice way to stop chasing rates and having numerous bank accounts, as it should stay right near the top and they also offer DIF which covers any amount over FDIC

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scott1961 said: AnonymousCoward said:

Note that if you read it carefully, the deal was dead before it actually was posted in it's own thread.

That discussion thread was started about 7 weeks after I posted the new account the first week it was offered in the "The Daughter of The Mother - Checking, Saving, and Money Market" thread. You will see it was heavily negged and put down, Glad I did not listen

Text
Date Posted: Oct/30/2005 10:55 AM
Rating:

Interesting new account offered by Salem five bank. It's called the "The Platinum Cash Account" It sets it rate every month by going with the 1-Month Libor rate. If you go back and check historic 1-Month Libor rate it becomes pretty clear that most of the best MM and savings account the last few years seem to stay right with it. Right now it's rate is 3.95% but look for it to go up on Nov 1 as they change to new 1-Month Libor rate on 1st of every month. Account is not for everyone as it has a $200,000 Min, But with it you get unlimited check writing, debit transactions and free ATMs worldwide. Might be a nice way to stop chasing rates and having numerous bank accounts, as it should stay right near the top and they also offer DIF which covers any amount over FDIC


But wouldn't it be more effective to lock up that 200,000+ in a CD or elsewhere for an even higher long term rate? I doubt that this sum needs to be available on demand for most people. In my case, I've looked into HY checking accounts many times but it never made much sense with the $500 checking balance I require to pay my bills. Although, Taylor is only a half hour drive away and has some good BBQ, guess I could spend the extra interest I'd get in a year there at the same time as I open the account (the small scale, small town Texas version of Scott's account with somewhat lower interest).

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mariojm said:
But wouldn't it be more effective to lock up that 200,000+ in a CD or elsewhere for an even higher long term rate?


Thank you, this is what I have been saying for a while. As soon as the account drops below 200K the rate drops to below 1% (or something very uncompetitive). So presumably he's locked up that $200,000 for over 6 months now.

My weighted average of my no interest checking account balance and my CDs beats the LIBOR rate quite handily. Even if I could go back in time to when this deal active I wouldn't take it. To each his own but I'll take my chances that over th next few months my CDs will continue ot beat LIBOR.

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Anyone else doing the Chartway 8% deal? If you qualify to join, and they seem to do whatever they can to find out if you might, then you can easily share this offer with yourself and your family/friends for multiple 8% certificates. No need to get referrals elsewhere. You can make deposits and withdrawls at 'shared branches' if actual Chartway branches aren't in your area. They seem a bit overwhelmed due to the promo (what else would they expect) and it can take several days for your certificate to be established, but it is dated from the day of deposit and when you request the certificate. It is a bit more work than World which is local and easy for me, but worthwhile so far.

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AnonymousCoward said: mariojm said:
But wouldn't it be more effective to lock up that 200,000+ in a CD or elsewhere for an even higher long term rate?


Thank you, this is what I have been saying for a while. As soon as the account drops below 200K the rate drops to below 1% (or something very uncompetitive). So presumably he's locked up that $200,000 for over 6 months now.


Actually the rate is .10% if I drop below $200k, also anything over $1 Million goes into what's called the platinum funding account and gets .10%. I do have a number of CDs paying higher than this account. Maturing CDs go into it and then when I find a good deal like Worlds 5.61% I fund from it. Like I have said in the past this account is not for everyone but is very useful to me.

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Have not seen anyone mention this - At World if you purchase a CD (for example for $100,000) and before the maturity you realize you need cash out of it, you can take only what you need - you do not need to close the whole thing AND you are only penalized for the portion you take out, not the entire amount. I learned this when I heard a CSR telling a customer he didn't have to purchase 10 CD @ $10,000 each and explained why.

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whitelephant said: Have not seen anyone mention this - At World if you purchase a CD (for example for $100,000) and before the maturity you realize you need cash out of it, you can take only what you need - you do not need to close the whole thing AND you are only penalized for the portion you take out, not the entire amount. I learned this when I heard a CSR telling a customer he didn't have to purchase 10 CD @ $10,000 each and explained why.

Most banks will allow you to take out any interest you've earned without penalty, at any time.

Once all the interest is withdrawn, any early withdrawal penalty is based only on the amount of original principal withdrawn.

So it seems preferable to have one large CD rather than many small ones in many cases.

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geo123 said: Oh, by the way, World's CD application may only take you 3 minutes PER APPLICATION. Whenever I open CD's, I always split them up into multiple $10K ones so that if something happens and I suddenly need the money, I only have to break one small CD. The disadvantage of this approach, of course, is that for, let's say, $100K it takes you 30 minutes just to complete all the &^$&^# applications!

you could just do a $10K $20K $30K $40K and cover your withdrawal needs in less than half the application time

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dasachs

New Member

Date Posted: Jun/22/2006 10:24 AM
Rating:

Good points, mhesidence. I respectfully disagree with your conclusions however so can we bat this around a little further ?

There are some respectable observers - including the Fed - who think the economy will slow early next year or later this year. Some futures markets are predicting a cut in Fed rates in the first half of next year.

So there is a reasonable chance of Fed rates declining early next year or late this year.

Before this happens, once it becomes clear the Fed has paused, with a chance they may cut in the near-future
(< 6 months), history says that often market rates start declining.

I conclude that there is a non-negligible chance that CD rates may start declining by the end of the year.

And, historically, Fed rates change significantly over time frames of 6 months to a year most of the time. It is relatively rare when Fed funds remain constant for a year or more.

These kinds of observations lead me to the strategy of locking in historically high rates (like ~ 6%) when they occur (like now) for a long time, and then paying penalties to secure even higher rates if rates go up significantly further.

For example, if rates go up by 1%, if your penalty is 3 months interest, you make it up in about one year; if the penalty is 6 months, you make it up in about two years. After the make-up period, you start to make more money over the remainder of the duration of the new CD.

If rates go up by 2%, cut the make-up periods in half.

If you start to view penalties as a neccessary part of 'doing business', you avoid the huge problem of having to pick the precise times that rates peak. And with long-duration CDs and a willingness to pay penalties, you aren't forced to renew at times when rates may be low.Text

By the chart on this link I would disagree that 6% is near a "historically high" rate. The chart looks to me that we are coming out of a period of historically low rates.
That's why I have a CD ladder with mostly short term CD's for now.
However dasachs,I do like your idea except for that nagging old problem,timing rates.

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dasachs said:
Most banks will allow you to take out any interest you've earned without penalty, at any time.

Once all the interest is withdrawn, any early withdrawal penalty is based only on the amount of original principal withdrawn.

So it seems preferable to have one large CD rather than many small ones in many cases.


So if your CDs are underperforming your money market savings you should at least withdraw the interest if you can without penalty.

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