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Hi I'm looking to start a Roth IRA, and have basically narrowed my options down to Vanguard and Fidelity, since these seem to be the two front runners. I'm relatively new to this finance game and my first question was which of the two would be the better choice?

My second question was after I pick from these 2, how should I allocate my funds? I'm sure this has been drilled 1000 times on this forum, but what are some good pieces of information/books which will tell me how to continuously keep updating my portfolio. Is buy and hold still frowned upon for the IRA/401k market? Also would there be any merit to putting money in a Vanguard/ Fidelity target retirement fund instead, and having them do the work, or is this a sucker's game?

Thanks!

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How can one avoid the minimum balance fee for starting a new Roth IRA with Vanguard? The min balance required to avoid ... (more)

BillLumberg (Aug. 24, 2007 @ 11:40p) |

^ You are correct. You can avoid any account fees ($20/year) if you elect for electronic statements (e-service package).... (more)

Ryan (Aug. 25, 2007 @ 5:37a) |

Should a Roth IRA be opened at Vanguard or do you suggest a brokerage like etrade, td waterhouse or the free zecco.com?

NachA (Aug. 25, 2007 @ 9:06a) |

Quick Summary is created and edited by users like you... Add FAQ's, Links and other Relevant Information by clicking the edit button in the lower right hand corner of this message.
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I prefer Vanguard because they have lower fees and no loads on their funds, generally.

Read everything on Warren Buffett and Peter Lynch to learn how to pick stocks.

Read David Dreman's book "Contrarian investment strategies"

Read "the only investment guide you'll ever need" by Tobias

Skip the hyped "rich dad/poor dad" series.

How to allocate? 100% stocks. You are young, invest like you are young.

You don't really need to continuously update anything. You could go with the s/p 500 and forget about it. You'll do fine in 40 years.

Buy and hold is how to get rich, period.

ETFs are really a good option, especially if you don't want to actively manage a portfolio (plus most people don't know enough and aren't disciplined enough to make money actively trading).

The only problem with picking a single fund (like s&p 500) is that it puts all your money into a small subset of the market. They are all going to be large companies and only US stocks.

I am a fan of fundadvice.com. Many of their portfolios are targeted to a slightly older age group. They heavily stress low expense ratios. The other big thing (according to them) is to hit the right asset classes. This link has example portfolios. Look at the 'Vanguard equity buy and hold' example portfolio for ideas on what type of allocation you might want. They also had an online Podcast if you want to listen to their weekly discussions.

I almost opened an account at Vanguard. My biggest issue with them was that they have a minimum per fund or they start charging fees. The minimum is waived if you have a large enough account. Fidelity may be more friendly to a small account but I really haven't looked into it.

I have the Fidelity No-Fee IRA. Really like it.

Another perk is the MBNA Fidelity card. 1.5% Cash Back put into your Fidelity account. You have to apply for it separately.

Vanguard's IRAs (Normal and Roth) have lower minimums than their regular accounts, so keep that in mind. Also, if you are going to invest small amounts over time (say $100/month), then I would recommend no-load mutual funds over ETFs. That just because the trading cost for buying the ETF is large compared to the deposit you're making. For example, Scottrade charges $7 per trade, so that's 7% of your investment gone each month. That's a lot to make up. And that's if your just buying one ETF. If you want to diversify your ETFs each month then that's an even bigger chunk of money lost. If you have large sums of money to invest, then the trading costs become smaller percentage and ETFs make more sense because the managing fees are usually less than the corresponding mutual funds' fees.

dewce said: Vanguard's IRAs (Normal and Roth) have lower minimums than their regular accounts, so keep that in mind. Also, if you are going to invest small amounts over time (say $100/month), then I would recommend no-load mutual funds over ETFs. That just because the trading cost for buying the ETF is large compared to the deposit you're making. For example, Scottrade charges $7 per trade, so that's 7% of your investment gone each month. That's a lot to make up. And that's if your just buying one ETF. If you want to diversify your ETFs each month then that's an even bigger chunk of money lost. If you have large sums of money to invest, then the trading costs become smaller percentage and ETFs make more sense because the managing fees are usually less than the corresponding mutual funds' fees.
Definitely. You can also use each time you invest more as a way to rebalance. If your other investments are performing so well that, for example, your S&P 500 is down for 40% of your portfolio when the target is 50%, you can use the additional money to increase it to 50%. Your portfolio will be rebalanced and there will be less trading fees in comparison to just buying some fixed percentage of X, Y, and Z each time.

DBFinley said: Hi I'm looking to start a Roth IRA, and have basically narrowed my options down to Vanguard and Fidelity, since these seem to be the two front runners. I'm relatively new to this finance game and my first question was which of the two would be the better choice?

They are both very good so you shouldn't stress out. I like Vanguard because they offer great funds, have really low expenses, and Vanguard is owned by its investors. I.e., there is no conflict of interest between the investors and the owners of the company.

My second question was after I pick from these 2, how should I allocate my funds?

You can only contribute $4,000 so in my opinion you can only reasonably purchase a single fund. With Vanguard I think it would only be possibly for you to purchase two funds, since with the exception of STAR ($1000 minimum) they all have $3,000 minimum initial purchases.

You should be looking at a very high stock allocation, like 90%.

Is buy and hold still frowned upon for the IRA/401k market?

What do you mean "still"? Buy and hold is the way to go.

Also would there be any merit to putting money in a Vanguard/ Fidelity target retirement fund instead, and having them do the work, or is this a sucker's game?

It is not a sucker's game and it is a very fine idea. I don't know about Fidelity, but Vanguard Target Retirement funds are simply a way to invest in several of their index funds at once. It will get you a more diverse allocation ($4,000 is not going to let you diversify with individual funds), re-balance automatically, and avoid fees. Target retirement funds at Vanguard have much lower balance requirements than index funds.

Consider the alternative, which is having several Vanguard index funds, each charging you a quarterly service fee for balances under $10,000. I don't think you should pay those fees, you should invest in those same indexes via a Target Retirement Fund instead. In the future, when you have a high enough balance to reasonably diversify with individual funds, you can transfer into new funds.

I, like you, am 23 yrs old and I opened a ROTH IRa with Fidelity. I have never used Vanguard so I can't compare. Fidelity isn't bad so far. Like someone said, you can only put in $4000. I bought $2500 worth of an Energy fund put the rest in a Minerals fund. I am new to this also, so I'm learning as I go (and losing a bit of money!)

Anyway, the great thing about Fidelity is that,y ou can chat with experts within the website (it's free). They obv. can't say what's good or bad, but they can help you out a ton. They also have a great Research section.

Good luck!

I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth which is worth 2.4 cents since copper went up lol
first when you are just starting out and realy don't know what you are doing the best bet is ETF'S or MUTUAL FUNDS
try to pick sectors that you think will do well in the future ( I mean the next 1 to 3 years ) you don't want to pick something that will take 20 years to get hot
because things go in cycles what might be doing bad now in the years ahead could get hot and when it gets to hot then sell an move to something else that you think will do well in the future
next read read read and learn so you are better prepared to do your own picking
learn charting its not the be be all end all but it helps to find things that are in trends
here is a site to start your reading

Link
It has some off the wall writers as well as some main stream writers but you can learn from both kinds
learn to think for yourself and you will do great

My reading list so far has consisted of
-Rich Dad/ Poor Dad, complete and utter garbage imho,
-Cramer's Sane Investing in an insane world, a good read but I'm a little too much of a novice to effectively play his game
-Rule #1 Investments, a watered down version of Cramer
-And Paul Farrel's Lazy Person's Guide to investing, which is basically a pamphlet for Vanguard, but seems to be pretty level headed

I'm definitely going to check out that Tobias book, and will probably end up going with 4k in the Vanguard Target 2045 fund for 3 years, while I catch up on my reading, and learn what to do with more money in my IRA.

Thanks all for your help

What do you guys think about a ROTH IRA...in

Index Funds?

or

Target Retirement?

I can't decide!
I think I want to stear clear of Mutal Funds because of the fees, and do Index Funds instead, what do you think?

With only $4k it will be hard to beat a target retirement fund's diversification. These accounts are not a sucker's game because they have 0 extra costs above holding the low fee funds of which they are comprised. It is basically free management. They're actually cheaper for small amounts of money because it's easier to hit minimum required balances to avoid fees.

If you go through Vanguard, to avoid a $10/year fee you need to have at least 5k in each fund, so make sure to add enough to hit that before june of next year. Also keep in mind that target retirement accounts are not eligable for admiral shares (insanely low expense ratios) like you could eventually get if you held each fund outside of the target retirement account.

ETFs are also a great option if you plan on buying the whole $4k at once (or just a few purchases a year) because of the transaction fee to buy. Mutual funds typically don't have a fee to buy so you can put away even $100 (vanguard, don't know minimum purchase at fidelity) at a time if you wanted to, something that would kill the good deal of ETFs.

Hmm..intresting

My problem is that I want to open a ROTH IRA, currently I made about $500 bucks a month, with the hours I'm working. I have a lot more in my HSBC account over $5,000 However I just started the job, I understand with an IRA you can only invest as much as you make, what do you think would be the best approach for me to invest?

As long as you know you'll make 4k this year (I don't know adjusted or gross) then the timing shouldn't matter. You can fund the Roth fully before the end of the year. If you think 4k might be cutting it too close, you can probably open a roth with 3k.

BlahBlahBlah32 said: Hmm..intresting

My problem is that I want to open a ROTH IRA, currently I made about $500 bucks a month, with the hours I'm working. I have a lot more in my HSBC account over $5,000 However I just started the job, I understand with an IRA you can only invest as much as you make, what do you think would be the best approach for me to invest?

Ok, an important detail to understand is that its not a matter of how much more you have made in your job of yet, its how much money you are making this year. The hard limit is that 4,000 dollars is the Roth IRA contribution limit this year unless you are more than double your current age. Basically, you can calculate how much money you are likely to make this year, (this is your total taxable income before you pay any taxes) and then immediately invest that amount into a fund. (Just make sure you have enough money (or some other source of financial support) in case something happens still left in your savings account.) The only catch is if for some reason you don't end up making as much money as you had expected, you have to pull that extra money out of the Roth IRA. The IRS doesn't care if the money is coming from your HSBC account now and you're only actually getting most of the money from your job later this year.

At your age you probably can afford to completely invest in stocks right now and avoid bonds. (While there can be debates on the subject, unless you are going to attempt market timing, historically trends have shown you will make more money in the long term from sticking your money in stocks over the longterm and holding them, the key is your young enough to recover if stocks drop in the short term.) Personally I'd be inclined to suggest Vanguard's Total Market Index Fund. It basically will track the overall US stock market and has very low fees which is key to maximizing your returns over the long term. While in the longer term you might want to look at diversifying into some international stock fund as well, in the short run sticking with the Total Market Index Fund is probably a good idea. The one key to remember with the Vanguard funds is you need to have 5,000 dollars in the fund by next year at this time to avoid maintenance fees if you buy in now. While there are more complex strategies out there, there is alot to be said for keeping it simple.

My inclination is to say avoid buying an ETF right now because you are not absolutely certain how much money you will make this year. With a Vanguard Index Fund you can add relatively small amounts (it can count for this year if you do it before paying taxes in April of next year) without the broker costs that are involved with buying an ETF and make it important to buy ETFs as lump buys rather than in smaller amounts periodically.

Check out the Bogleheads Guide to Investing and www.diehards.org.

DBFinley said: Hi I'm looking to start a Roth IRA, and have basically narrowed my options down to Vanguard and Fidelity

Why would you open the account anywhere other than Firstrade? They offer thousands of Mutual funds (including Fidelity and Vanguard funds) with no transaction fee and no load. Plus, if you want to buy an individual stock or ETF down the line, it only costs $7 instead of the $40 or whatever Fidelity and Vanguard charge. As long as you don't want to call and talk to an investment advisor all the time, there are really no befefits to opening the account directly with Vanguard of Fidelity.

(Please, if someone knows an advantage of opening directly with Fidelity or Vanguard, I am very interested. I just can't think of one.)

I opened a Roth at Vanguard (target retirement fund) this spring and I've been pretty happy with it. Lost about $50 so far, but no biggie.

To piggyback on the topic, I'm going to roll my 401k from an old job into a regular IRA. My 401k had approx. 10-12 funds that my money is currently in (approx. $17k). I'm 28. When I roll my money over to Vanguard is it ok to put it all in a target retirement fund until I know what I'm doing or should I have 10-12 funds to allocate my money into just like my 401k was?

Can anyone link a site that explains Roth IRA's in a simple easy read, without all the fancy dooda about how you will soon be a millionare trust us.

I'll be 19 soon and I want to open one with the money I will be making through internships this year, I heard you need to invest over the next few years as well but next year with my busy schedule I probably won't be able to work. I'll have enough saved from past jobs to contribute but as a student I won't have any income for the year.

So I simple website or break down would be very helpful and greatly apreciated. Thanks


Vanguard is expensive when you buy ETFs or stocks, or even non Vanguard mutual funds-that is when Vanguard acts as a broker.

Any comments on Vanguard ETF stock trading costs for smaller accounts? ( I am not asking about the ETF management fee which is very low at Vanguard.)

im 24 but in the same boat...thoroughly confused...I think i've settled on vanguard for my acct., but am confused on which way to go. For instance, Vanguard Target Retirement 2045 Fund Summary...how is this different from just opening a roth ira with vanguard? In the 2045 do they just preselect your funds and in a roth you pick your own or what? Sorry for newb talk but i've been reading and can't find an answer to this specific ?


another question I have would have to do with if I opened the acct. by april 17th or whatever. coming up with the 4k is not a problem as I have a lot more than that in an HSBC high yield acct. So should I go ahead and open now, contribute the 4k and be done with it? I've already filed taxes if that matters.

Once again thanks for being patient with my incoherant babbling.

pwiddy said: im 24 but in the same boat...thoroughly confused...I think i've settled on vanguard for my acct., but am confused on which way to go. For instance, Vanguard Target Retirement 2045 Fund Summary...how is this different from just opening a roth ira with vanguard? In the 2045 do they just preselect your funds and in a roth you pick your own or what? Sorry for newb talk but i've been reading and can't find an answer to this specific ?


another question I have would have to do with if I opened the acct. by april 17th or whatever. coming up with the 4k is not a problem as I have a lot more than that in an HSBC high yield acct. So should I go ahead and open now, contribute the 4k and be done with it? I've already filed taxes if that matters.

Once again thanks for being patient with my incoherant babbling.


You don't have an understanding of how the TR 2045 works, read the info on it or call vanguard directly and inquire with them.


Open now, and add 8k. 4k for 2006, 4k for 2007.

Minoritydan said: pwiddy said: im 24 but in the same boat...thoroughly confused...I think i've settled on vanguard for my acct., but am confused on which way to go. For instance, Vanguard Target Retirement 2045 Fund Summary...how is this different from just opening a roth ira with vanguard? In the 2045 do they just preselect your funds and in a roth you pick your own or what? Sorry for newb talk but i've been reading and can't find an answer to this specific ?


another question I have would have to do with if I opened the acct. by april 17th or whatever. coming up with the 4k is not a problem as I have a lot more than that in an HSBC high yield acct. So should I go ahead and open now, contribute the 4k and be done with it? I've already filed taxes if that matters.

Once again thanks for being patient with my incoherant babbling.


You don't have an understanding of how the TR 2045 works, read the info on it or call vanguard directly and inquire with them.


Open now, and add 8k. 4k for 2006, 4k for 2007.


obviously I don't understand it...even after reading. Perhaps I do understand the fund...what I do not understand is which one I should go with...Perhaps this has been covered before and I just don't see it. Also when you say add 8k now, the full 8k would have to be done before the 17th? I guess I can call them and talk to them about it...


edit** so i guess within the TR 2045 it can be a roth ira no?**

pwiddy said: im 24 but in the same boat...thoroughly confused...I think i've settled on vanguard for my acct., but am confused on which way to go. For instance, Vanguard Target Retirement 2045 Fund Summary...how is this different from just opening a roth ira with vanguard? In the 2045 do they just preselect your funds and in a roth you pick your own or what?A Roth is a type of account, while a mutual fund is a type of investment. You can put a mutual fund in a Roth.

Vanguard Target 2045 is a fund consisting of other Vanguard mutual funds, and it's a reasonable choice.

another question I have would have to do with if I opened the acct. by april 17th or whatever. coming up with the 4k is not a problem as I have a lot more than that in an HSBC high yield acct. So should I go ahead and open now, contribute the 4k and be done with it? I've already filed taxes if that matters. I'd make a contribution for tax year 2006 anyway (you'll probably have to file an amended return), and if I weren't sure of which mutual fund I wanted for the Roth, I'd pick Vanguard Prime Money Market for now and possibly change to another fund later.

I opened my first Roth IRA last year - I did it at ING Direct because I had a savings account there and at the time I was attracted by the simple easy-to-understand list of ING Funds.

Now that I have learned more (thanks Fatwallet) I realize I am basically getting screwed by ING due to the tiny number of funds available and the high fees on them, and I am looking at opening a new Roth at Vanguard. I assume I can request a rollover from the funds in my ING account, but are there any penalties or losses associated with rolling over a Roth account? Does the amount I rollover count towards my annual contribution limit?:

BuckarooBanzai said: I opened my first Roth IRA last year - I did it at ING Direct because I had a savings account there and at the time I was attracted by the simple easy-to-understand list of ING Funds.

Now that I have learned more (thanks Fatwallet) I realize I am basically getting screwed by ING due to the tiny number of funds available and the high fees on them, and I am looking at opening a new Roth at Vanguard. I assume I can request a rollover from the funds in my ING account, but are there any penalties or losses associated with rolling over a Roth account? Does the amount I rollover count towards my annual contribution limit?:


you have to check with Ing whether they'll charge you an accounting closing fee or a transfer fee. (if you they do, you might be able to ask the receiving broker to reimburse you for the fees).

Your rollover does not count towards your annual contrib limit.

What benefits do you get from using a broker like Vanguard as opposed to going with like an ING or E*Trade Roth account?

llcwannabe said: What benefits do you get from using a broker like Vanguard as opposed to going with like an ING or E*Trade Roth account?

If you want to buy mutual funds going with Vanguard (or Fidelity or T. Rowe Price etc.) is a good idea. I have my Roth at Vanguard they have extremely low expense ratios and I really like their funds.

If however you'd like to buy individual stocks and ETFs etc. then you are better off going with one of the lower fee brokers.

So unless you plan to do lots of buying and selling of individual securities I'd go with one of the big mutual fund companies.

If initial contribution is a problem you can use the STAR fund at Vanguard or start up with T. Rowe Price I think they let you open a Roth with a DD of $50/month minimum. At Vanguard you'll have to fork over $3,000 for many of the funds or $1,000 for the STAR fund. The only IRA fee at Vanguard is $10/year for balances under $5,000 (you can defeat that buy contributing $4,000 for 2006 and $1,000 for 2007 right off the bat.

Now there can be other fees at Vanguard for instance their index funds you need $10,000 each or they charge you a yearly low balance fee etc. But if you are planning to go with a Life Strategy or Target account you only need to start with $3,000 (and make it $5,000 for no fees at all).

Dearth thanks a ton for the input. I'm thinking I might be best to switch from Etrade to Vanguard. I have 4K to put in and could probably round up another 1K to avoid the charge. I know very little about buying stocks at this point, I'm trying to research as quickly as possible but it seems like the funds might be a better right for right now. Hopefully E*Trade will free my funds without charging me an account closing fee. Do I need to make two seperate contributions a 4K and 1K or can I just contribute 5K in one lump sum and assume they'll release how to split the contribution years? Thanks again.

If you are opening the account online, you can make one contribution and there is a page where you specify how much you are contributing for each year. So you will want to put $4000 in the box for 2006 and $1000 in the box for 2007.

llcwannabe said: Dearth thanks a ton for the input. I'm thinking I might be best to switch from Etrade to Vanguard. I have 4K to put in and could probably round up another 1K to avoid the charge. I know very little about buying stocks at this point, I'm trying to research as quickly as possible but it seems like the funds might be a better right for right now. Hopefully E*Trade will free my funds without charging me an account closing fee. Do I need to make two seperate contributions a 4K and 1K or can I just contribute 5K in one lump sum and assume they'll release how to split the contribution years? Thanks again.

I saw your other thread(s).... their right next time search I opened my Roth in February and all the pertinent info I needed was in stickies or searches.

But anyhow when you open with Vanguard online they walk you right thru similar to opening any financial account online, they'll link to your checking account etc. You say you already have an ETrade Roth, remember you can only contribute $4,000/year to a Roth so if you have some 2006 contributions already keep that in mind. You can contribute a full $4,000 for 2006 or 2007 or both depending on what you might have already put in your ETrade Roth towards 2006. There will be a drop down menu asking what year you'd like the contribution to be credited towards.

So if you've already put say $2,500 into your Etrade Roth for 2006 you can put another $1,500 plus whatever you'd like for 2007. Remember most funds at Vanguard are $3,000 min and don't worry too much if you can't break $5,000 right off the bat the fee is only $10 a year and they give you the option to pay the fee separate from your contribution. Hopefully you'd only be sub $5k for one year.

I'm planning on putting $3k into a Roth during the first few months of '08 towards my 2007 limit and after reading this thread and a few others, I feel like Vanguard is that way to go. I read over the asset allocations of their Target Retirement 2050 and 2045 funds as well as the LifeStrategy Growth Fund, and feel that the Target Retirements will fit me best because they are have a higher concentration in stocks.

The 2050 and 2045 are basically identical in terms of asset allocations, but a major difference I notice is the Fund Total Net Assets. The 2050 has about $118M in net assets while the 2045 has about $2B. FWIW the 2050 is only about 1 year old while the 2045 is nearing 4 years since inception. I think it is safe to assume that the net assets differ due to the age difference of each fund.

What role does fund total net assets play?
Would that be something that should influence my decision over where to put my money?

There was a post on this forum not too long ago about why to avoid "Target Retirement Funds"

Whatever company you choose, the most important thing is the fund manager.

Look for a manager that's been there for a while, and more importantly look at their 10-year track record.

Avoid funds that have been "hot" over the past few years, it's well known that these funds get too much money and end up underperforming.

mcmillan2k said: Avoid funds that have been "hot" over the past few years, it's well known that these funds get too much money and end up underperforming.Or they were hot simply because they were sector funds in disguise, as Harbor Growth was in the late 1990s (70% tech), or were a lot more aggressive than normal for the catagory, as Janus Balanced was, 8-10 years ago -- it beat all other balanced funds because its stock portfolio was unusually aggressive for a balanced fund, but its bond portfoliio did only about average.

Skinz said: Can anyone link a site that explains Roth IRA's in a simple easy read, without all the fancy dooda about how you will soon be a millionare trust us.

I'll be 19 soon and I want to open one with the money I will be making through internships this year, I heard you need to invest over the next few years as well but next year with my busy schedule I probably won't be able to work. I'll have enough saved from past jobs to contribute but as a student I won't have any income for the year.

So I simple website or break down would be very helpful and greatly apreciated. Thanks

Fairmark-Roth IRA Info

EDIT: I just realized that the response I gave was from a year ago. But, I hope it helps someone anyway.

mcmillan2k said: There was a post on this forum not too long ago about why to avoid "Target Retirement Funds"

Whatever company you choose, the most important thing is the fund manager.

Look for a manager that's been there for a while, and more importantly look at their 10-year track record.

Avoid funds that have been "hot" over the past few years, it's well known that these funds get too much money and end up underperforming.



Just to be fair, I started that thread and that was NOT the consensus of the thread, there were many good arguments made on both sides.

ltcm said: mcmillan2k said: There was a post on this forum not too long ago about why to avoid "Target Retirement Funds"

Whatever company you choose, the most important thing is the fund manager.

Look for a manager that's been there for a while, and more importantly look at their 10-year track record.

Avoid funds that have been "hot" over the past few years, it's well known that these funds get too much money and end up underperforming.



Just to be fair, I started that thread and that was NOT the consensus of the thread, there were many good arguments made on both sides.


I actually read through that thread and agree that it was not the consensus of the thread. What I took from it was that Target Retirement Funds are not one size fits all, and just because you are planning on retiring in 20XX doesn't mean their 20XX plan fits your investing goals and risk tolerance.

Skipping 6 Messages...
Should a Roth IRA be opened at Vanguard or do you suggest a brokerage like etrade, td waterhouse or the free zecco.com?



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