filliy said: I was just out getting groceries and noticed an old Toyota pickup (sounded like a diesel) the bed had been replaced with a wood bed of sorts and proudly scrawled in black paint was "old betsy 550,000 miles and still going" I'm fairly sure from the demographic information of the driver he won't be hitting fatwallet to brag of his exploits but WOW ... just thought I'd share that
Thats awesome, Toyotas consistently deliver the best value at the best price, far as I can tell. As a corallary to this thread, what is the best time to unload a used car? I would want to just before major repairs (or even minor) are imminent. I dont mean sell it with defects. I mean an estimation that the average expected life of certain parts is such-and-such, so may as well sell and avoid those inevitable costs...
I don't have a set time or mileage expectation. I pretty much look at the annual costs of maintenance and repair. At less than $1200 per year, the used car still makes good financial sense for me. Once it gets to over $1200, it's a different story and I start to take a close look at exactly what is needing replacement.
I have a few other rules of thumb ... I never replace engines or transmissions. Those are big ticket items, and things I generally won't do on my own.
However, the folks I generally end up selling to are comfortable replacing engines/trannies. I'll tell the prospective buyer all about the problem and they are happy to pay cash. They generally are pretty impressed with the maintenance record.
Generally get $500-$2000 when I sell. Less for manual transmission cars and more for auto transmission.
My current job requires me to be in the car often, and many times I'm required to take clients out for lunch and to ferry executives/employees to and from the airport. I suppose a few of them would be impressed by my frugality if I did all this in my 97 Corolla, but most likely many of them would be appalled and would make a point of never getting in a car with me again. The time I spend talking to them as we drive around benefits my career and helps keep my profile high. Between the need to entertain in my car and the miles I'm driving these days (~20k/year), I don't question my decision to purchase a new Accord. I could've bought one CPO or slightly used, but the costs between them are not enough to justify slightly used. I can make an easy case for the benefits of financing a new Accord relative to the opportunities I'll get at work over the next 3-5 years while I own it.
Anyone who believes buying used is the only rational decision is making a case based on their experience and can't account for how others calculate value or cost. Likewise for anyone who feels buying new is the only way to go.
LT
Gosh, how about a 3 year old Jaguar XJ? Wouldn't that impress them more, and wouldn't it be about the same price as a new (top of the line) Accord?
many of them would be appalled and would make a point of never getting in a car with me again. LT
Gosh, how about a 3 year old Jaguar XJ? Wouldn't that impress them more, and wouldn't it be about the same price as a new (top of the line) Accord?
--Kevin
larrytrain never said anyone would be impressed with his Accord, just that they would be appalled if he drove them around in a much crappier car. Like it or not, many people think less of you if you drive a beater car. I don't really care as I'm driving a 91 corolla with broken A/C for my 10 mile work commute. Its paid for and reliable transportation, but sucks for entertaining clients or just about anything else. An Accord is reasonably nice and also pretty reliable, not sure a Jaguar qualifies as reliable. That said, I saw two Hondas dead on the side of the highway this weekend on the way from Phoenix to Flagstaff, so Hondas have their problems too.
many of them would be appalled and would make a point of never getting in a car with me again. LT
Gosh, how about a 3 year old Jaguar XJ? Wouldn't that impress them more, and wouldn't it be about the same price as a new (top of the line) Accord?
--Kevin
larrytrain never said anyone would be impressed with his Accord, just that they would be appalled if he drove them around in a much crappier car. Like it or not, many people think less of you if you drive a beater car. I don't really care as I'm driving a 91 corolla with broken A/C for my 10 mile work commute. Its paid for and reliable transportation, but sucks for entertaining clients or just about anything else. An Accord is reasonably nice and also pretty reliable, not sure a Jaguar qualifies as reliable. That said, I saw two Hondas dead on the side of the highway this weekend on the way from Phoenix to Flagstaff, so Hondas have their problems too.
I was simply extrapolating from the logic in his post.
It is safe to say that the following two cars will sell for about the same price (probably within $1000 of each other):
many of them would be appalled and would make a point of never getting in a car with me again. LT
Gosh, how about a 3 year old Jaguar XJ? Wouldn't that impress them more, and wouldn't it be about the same price as a new (top of the line) Accord?
--Kevin
larrytrain never said anyone would be impressed with his Accord, just that they would be appalled if he drove them around in a much crappier car. Like it or not, many people think less of you if you drive a beater car. I don't really care as I'm driving a 91 corolla with broken A/C for my 10 mile work commute. Its paid for and reliable transportation, but sucks for entertaining clients or just about anything else. An Accord is reasonably nice and also pretty reliable, not sure a Jaguar qualifies as reliable. That said, I saw two Hondas dead on the side of the highway this weekend on the way from Phoenix to Flagstaff, so Hondas have their problems too.
I was simply extrapolating from the logic in his post.
It is safe to say that the following two cars will sell for about the same price (probably within $1000 of each other):
S105dude said: fatspider said: Hmmm...I didn't see anyone stressing enough the fact that newer cars will have better emission controls besides being more fuel efficient - consequently, they're better for the environment (it goes w/o saying that I wouldn't even *consider* buying gas guzzlers). It would be one of the factors I would consider when buying used vs new. I know typically most FWers measure their bottomline in terms of money but I for one believe that by doing my part in leaving a better, healthier world for my progeny is worth more than leaving a few dollars more in their bank account.
If you truly wanted to be "green" you wouldn't have a car. Any car (hybrid or not) is contributing greatly to the pollution of the planet. What's that? An electric car? Sorry, the electricity you use to charge it up comes from Fossil fuels. Anyway, a lot of Hondas have held LEV/ULEV status for a long time already so you can go back 6-8 years and still have an LEV/ULEV car.Pollution is not an all or none proposition. Furthermore, you are wrong about electricity. It can be generated from clean wind/solar, through nat gas or coal. Oftentimes the consumer has choices. It is true that Honda has made LEV cars for a decade, but they pollute ~ 10 TIMES my current car. The ULEV vehicles you praise pollute about TWICE my car.
These are big differences, and it is stupid to act as though they do not exist.
Gosh, how about a 3 year old Jaguar XJ? Wouldn't that impress them more, and wouldn't it be about the same price as a new (top of the line) Accord?
I think the sweet spot for buying used luxury cars is 2 years. Long enough that you know if they're a problematic car or not, yet still enough time that they're probably fully covered by warranty and possibly maintenance (a la BMW).
For me, a used luxury car didn't make sense because of the # of miles I drive. I've seen repair/maintenance bills on newer Jaguars, and they made me blush for relatively minor repairs, even when the work was. The Accord (4 cylinder, manual) was the least expensive new car that met all my needs.
On an aside though, after the CEO fell asleep in my passenger seat on the way to the airport and started drooling on the seat belt, I did wish I was back in the corolla...
New cars are invincible? This could have happened in any car. You make a point to get a reliable car, but new != reliable. Cars often have problems in the first few thousand miles and even if you had a new car warranty you would not have made the interview.
You're missing the point...this wasn't a hypothesis, my used car did break down. Generally speaking, the odds of a brand new car (assuming there are no known defects by the manufacturer) is far less likely to have a sudden and dramatic breakdown, and if it did, odds are it's covered by warranty. After all, good new cars make good used cars.
larrytrain said: Gosh, how about a 3 year old Jaguar XJ? Wouldn't that impress them more, and wouldn't it be about the same price as a new (top of the line) Accord?
I think the sweet spot for buying used luxury cars is 2 years. Long enough that you know if they're a problematic car or not, yet still enough time that they're probably fully covered by warranty and possibly maintenance (a la BMW).
For me, a used luxury car didn't make sense because of the # of miles I drive. I've seen repair/maintenance bills on newer Jaguars, and they made me blush for relatively minor repairs, even when the work was. The Accord (4 cylinder, manual) was the least expensive new car that met all my needs.
On an aside though, after the CEO fell asleep in my passenger seat on the way to the airport and started drooling on the seat belt, I did wish I was back in the corolla...
New cars are invincible? This could have happened in any car. You make a point to get a reliable car, but new != reliable. Cars often have problems in the first few thousand miles and even if you had a new car warranty you would not have made the interview.
You're missing the point...this wasn't a hypothesis, my used car did break down. Generally speaking, the odds of a brand new car (assuming there are no known defects by the manufacturer) is far less likely to have a sudden and dramatic breakdown, and if it did, odds are it's covered by warranty. After all, good new cars make good used cars.
No, it's you who missed the point. Point is, new cars break all the time. How would the new car being under warranty if it broke down in the same fasion as your used car have made the situation end any differently? Would the magic new car warranty fairy have whisked you away to your oh-so-important interview? To further illustrate my point:
We went on vacation in August of 2004. My wife was about 5 months pregnant. I was in a new 2003 Dodge Ram Quadcab with less than 20k miles on the odometer. We broke down violently on the side of the road in Wakeeney, Kansas at approximately 4:40pm on a Friday evening. Yes they came and towed me to the dealership, but they closed at 5pm (the nearest service facility was a 45 min trip from our breakdown location) and the parts didn't get in until Monday morning. We lost almost 3 days of vacation as well as the cost of hotel ($79 per night) which was not re-imbursed to us. How's that for a crappy vacation?
Had the vehicle been used it would have been a $109 part and about $100 for labor, but the repair could have been done in a timely fashion and we would have been on our way. Had this not been grounds to void my warranty I would have just gone ahead and repaired it out of pocket.
It's ok to buy a new car when you know the car will appreciate in value over the long haul and you don't drive more than 1000 miles each year on it. #1 Bugatti Veyron roadster est $4 mill limited production probably all sold out aready #2 Ferrari California Another hard to find #3 Anything you can sell to some idiot that's a hot car such as the GT-R and Charger for this year. GT-R you've got to get it from the dealer at msrp but most are charging thousands above that.
I've always thought that there's nothing wrong with buying a new car if you drive it until it's a beater. You start with a new car and take care of it properly, and you know its history. Seven or ten years later, you sell it to a junkyard.
Here's my take on it (I'm only 23 and single so it must be very different from you all)
1) New cars are safer. Yeah I know that it depends on the driver.. but if I'm in the middle of an interesection and a drunk runs a red light and hits me, I would much rather be in a car with side airbags and side curtain airbags (which my next car [which I hopefully will get in 2 months] will have)
2) With new cars, you know exactly how the car has been treated all it's life.
3) Newer cars are more fuel efficient. Yeah I know that some cars were very fuel efficient in 80's and early 90's, but not really after that thanks to the "SUV age". The car that I plan on buying, a Toyota Yaris, has an average rating of 34 MPG.. but people are getting much higher averages in real life with no effort.
4) With the current gas price volatility, cars like Yaris and Fit are VERY high in demand and almost never sell below MSRP. I can get a Toyota for invoice + $250. Depending on future gas prices, the resell value of the vehical might be high. It's a good resell value to begin with since it's a Toyota.
5) A Toyota Yaris 5 door hatchback is a new vehical for US for the 2009 model year. Why wouldnt one buy a car that turns heads, gets 37-38 MPG combined and costs about 16.5k after taxes, title, everything.
darkmeridian said: I've always thought that there's nothing wrong with buying a new car if you drive it until it's a beater. You start with a new car and take care of it properly, and you know its history. Seven or ten years later, you sell it to a junkyard.
Buying a new car is not intrinsically "wrong".
It is however, more expensive (compared to buying a used car). As we all know, cars depreciate a lot more in years 1->3 than in years 4->6. If you keep the car a long time (say 12 years), you only pay for this extra depreciation once (compared to 4x if you bought a new car every 3 years), and you spread this cost out over several years.
But you definitely paid more initially when you bought the new car vs the used car.
KayK said: Here's my take on it (I'm only 23 and single so it must be very different from you all)
1) That is an overgeneralization. Not every new car is going to be safer than a 3 or 4 year old used car with similar safety features.
2) Yes, that is true, but that is just a justification for the cost (and immediate substantial depreciation) of a new car.
3) Again, that is an overgeneralization and depends what two cars you are comparing. A 2004 Honda Civic (or the like) is probably going to get just as good gas mileage as a similar sized new car.
4) That reasoning is circular and depends on future market factors that are virtually impossible to predict.
5) Because as soon as you drive it off the lot it, arguably, depreciated by several thousand dollars.
With all that said, this is coming from someone (me) who leases a new car every three years. You do not need anyone's permission to obtain a new car. It all comes down to how you rationalize it. I put a high value on driving a new car with a full factory warranty and being able to look the other way after 36 months. If it needs work, I get a loaner/rental car at no cost, etc. I am also aware that during this time all I am doing is paying the depreciation on the car and have no equity in the car (which is no different than the first 2 to 5 years if I had financed or bought the car outright since a new car depreciates no matter how you structure the payments).
As long as you come to terms with the fact that a new car is, in 99.9% of all cases, immediately a depreciating asset and not an investment. We all purchase things that are not necessarily good investments ($4 cups of coffee, the latest and greatest LCD TV, etc.) but you must remember that people get enjoyment out of things that are not necessaries, and there is an inherant value to that.
If you are looking for the best value, but a 3 to 5 year old used car with a good repair record and low mileage.
KayK said: Here's my take on it (I'm only 23 and single so it must be very different from you all)
1) New cars are safer. Yeah I know that it depends on the driver.. but if I'm in the middle of an interesection and a drunk runs a red light and hits me, I would much rather be in a car with side airbags and side curtain airbags (which my next car [which I hopefully will get in 2 months] will have)
2) With new cars, you know exactly how the car has been treated all it's life.
3) Newer cars are more fuel efficient. Yeah I know that some cars were very fuel efficient in 80's and early 90's, but not really after that thanks to the "SUV age". The car that I plan on buying, a Toyota Yaris, has an average rating of 34 MPG.. but people are getting much higher averages in real life with no effort.
4) With the current gas price volatility, cars like Yaris and Fit are VERY high in demand and almost never sell below MSRP. I can get a Toyota for invoice + $250. Depending on future gas prices, the resell value of the vehical might be high. It's a good resell value to begin with since it's a Toyota.
5) A Toyota Yaris 5 door hatchback is a new vehical for US for the 2009 model year. Why wouldnt one buy a car that turns heads, gets 37-38 MPG combined and costs about 16.5k after taxes, title, everything. You are well on your way to rationalizing your financially imprudent decision to buy a new car, but your reasons are lacking. In fact:
I bet my old body-on-frame police cruisers are quite a bit safer than your new yaris.
I know that my police cruiser was repaired each and every time it had something wrong while in service.
Fuel economy is not that big of issue to me because I don't drive more than 12k per year (approx 630 gallons).
My resell values of my squads are always in excess of what I pay for them.
My cruiser may not turn heads, but it literally clears the left lane in front of me and often results in preferential treatment at 4-way stops. I'm quite sure a yaris doesn't "demand respect" in traffic like an unmarked cop car does.
But like I said before, if you like new cars, great... buy one! It's your money.
delzy said: KayK said: Here's my take on it (I'm only 23 and single so it must be very different from you all)
1) New cars are safer. Yeah I know that it depends on the driver.. but if I'm in the middle of an interesection and a drunk runs a red light and hits me, I would much rather be in a car with side airbags and side curtain airbags (which my next car [which I hopefully will get in 2 months] will have)
2) With new cars, you know exactly how the car has been treated all it's life.
3) Newer cars are more fuel efficient. Yeah I know that some cars were very fuel efficient in 80's and early 90's, but not really after that thanks to the "SUV age". The car that I plan on buying, a Toyota Yaris, has an average rating of 34 MPG.. but people are getting much higher averages in real life with no effort.
4) With the current gas price volatility, cars like Yaris and Fit are VERY high in demand and almost never sell below MSRP. I can get a Toyota for invoice + $250. Depending on future gas prices, the resell value of the vehical might be high. It's a good resell value to begin with since it's a Toyota.
5) A Toyota Yaris 5 door hatchback is a new vehical for US for the 2009 model year. Why wouldnt one buy a car that turns heads, gets 37-38 MPG combined and costs about 16.5k after taxes, title, everything. You are well on your way to rationalizing your financially imprudent decision to buy a new car, but your reasons are lacking. In fact:
I bet my old body-on-frame police cruisers are quite a bit safer than your new yaris.
I know that my police cruiser was repaired each and every time it had something wrong while in service.
Fuel economy is not that big of issue to me because I don't drive more than 12k per year (approx 630 gallons).
My resell values of my squads are always in excess of what I pay for them.
My cruiser may not turn heads, but it literally clears the left lane in front of me and often results in preferential treatment at 4-way stops. I'm quite sure a yaris doesn't "demand respect" in traffic like an unmarked cop car does.
But like I said before, if you like new cars, great... buy one! It's your money.
New cars risk the bleeding edge factor. If the model you are looking at just had a major overhaul I'd say no. If the new car is a mature model rev, then it may be a good idea.
Always remember cars are not investments, they are expenses. If you are driving a brand spanking new recall riden piece of metal you will end up spending more.
fwvisitor said: delzy said: KayK said: Here's my take on it (I'm only 23 and single so it must be very different from you all)
1) New cars are safer. Yeah I know that it depends on the driver.. but if I'm in the middle of an interesection and a drunk runs a red light and hits me, I would much rather be in a car with side airbags and side curtain airbags (which my next car [which I hopefully will get in 2 months] will have)
2) With new cars, you know exactly how the car has been treated all it's life.
3) Newer cars are more fuel efficient. Yeah I know that some cars were very fuel efficient in 80's and early 90's, but not really after that thanks to the "SUV age". The car that I plan on buying, a Toyota Yaris, has an average rating of 34 MPG.. but people are getting much higher averages in real life with no effort.
4) With the current gas price volatility, cars like Yaris and Fit are VERY high in demand and almost never sell below MSRP. I can get a Toyota for invoice + $250. Depending on future gas prices, the resell value of the vehical might be high. It's a good resell value to begin with since it's a Toyota.
5) A Toyota Yaris 5 door hatchback is a new vehical for US for the 2009 model year. Why wouldnt one buy a car that turns heads, gets 37-38 MPG combined and costs about 16.5k after taxes, title, everything. You are well on your way to rationalizing your financially imprudent decision to buy a new car, but your reasons are lacking. In fact:
I bet my old body-on-frame police cruisers are quite a bit safer than your new yaris.
I know that my police cruiser was repaired each and every time it had something wrong while in service.
Fuel economy is not that big of issue to me because I don't drive more than 12k per year (approx 630 gallons).
My resell values of my squads are always in excess of what I pay for them.
My cruiser may not turn heads, but it literally clears the left lane in front of me and often results in preferential treatment at 4-way stops. I'm quite sure a yaris doesn't "demand respect" in traffic like an unmarked cop car does.
But like I said before, if you like new cars, great... buy one! It's your money.
you missed this
I'm only 23 and single I sort of forgot the yaris was a big hit with the hotties. Good luck with that!
fwvisitor said: delzy said: KayK said: Here's my take on it (I'm only 23 and single so it must be very different from you all)
1) New cars are safer. Yeah I know that it depends on the driver.. but if I'm in the middle of an interesection and a drunk runs a red light and hits me, I would much rather be in a car with side airbags and side curtain airbags (which my next car [which I hopefully will get in 2 months] will have)
2) With new cars, you know exactly how the car has been treated all it's life.
3) Newer cars are more fuel efficient. Yeah I know that some cars were very fuel efficient in 80's and early 90's, but not really after that thanks to the "SUV age". The car that I plan on buying, a Toyota Yaris, has an average rating of 34 MPG.. but people are getting much higher averages in real life with no effort.
4) With the current gas price volatility, cars like Yaris and Fit are VERY high in demand and almost never sell below MSRP. I can get a Toyota for invoice + $250. Depending on future gas prices, the resell value of the vehical might be high. It's a good resell value to begin with since it's a Toyota.
5) A Toyota Yaris 5 door hatchback is a new vehical for US for the 2009 model year. Why wouldnt one buy a car that turns heads, gets 37-38 MPG combined and costs about 16.5k after taxes, title, everything. You are well on your way to rationalizing your financially imprudent decision to buy a new car, but your reasons are lacking. In fact:
I bet my old body-on-frame police cruisers are quite a bit safer than your new yaris.
I know that my police cruiser was repaired each and every time it had something wrong while in service.
Fuel economy is not that big of issue to me because I don't drive more than 12k per year (approx 630 gallons).
My resell values of my squads are always in excess of what I pay for them.
My cruiser may not turn heads, but it literally clears the left lane in front of me and often results in preferential treatment at 4-way stops. I'm quite sure a yaris doesn't "demand respect" in traffic like an unmarked cop car does.
But like I said before, if you like new cars, great... buy one! It's your money.
you missed this
I'm only 23 and single
that yaris will help keep him signle :-p
so do any new car buyers here finance, or do all FWF always buy in cash (or lease).
How do any of you figure in long term risk? job loss? disability? current car still works but is entering that stage right before expensive repairs. So i'm in no rush to buy my next car, but I'd buy on my own terms, then be 'rushed' to buy. I know that a big downpayment will make the overall risk smaller (ie easier to sell car). But at the same time i'd rather not put down too much money, since even if the interest difference 'costs' me money, the value of extra money in the bank means more to me.
I already have retirement savings (10% auto deduction) and no c.c. balance.
I am thinking of buying a 2006 Chevy malibu? Any comments of owners or otherwise. On quality, options etc. I was going to buy new but I think unless I find a new one comparable I will stick to two or three years old.
Here's one: bought a Honda Accord brand new exactly 2 years ago. Car meets truck wheel on highway and gets totaled. Insurance pays over $900 more than car cost new.
I'll have to keep in mind the financial opportunity in merging my car with a truck tire. I bet my crown vics would yield double their cost. On second thought...
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