Would it be better to do immediately before an AOR in the hopes that issuers will see a higher limit on those cards and give a higher limit to match? Or request the CLI immediately after? Any other inputs? Thanks
01carterb said: For a CLI that will require a hard pull:
Would it be better to do immediately before an AOR in the hopes that issuers will see a higher limit on those cards and give a higher limit to match? Or request the CLI immediately after? Any other inputs? ThanksYour CLI will not show up on your credit report until a few days/weeks later when your regular statement posts. My advice would be to request hard-pull CLIs on the same day as your AOR, but only after you're completely done with your AOR (it is often a case that requesting hard-pull CLIs after AOR will not result in a hard pull anyway, if the issuer pulled your record during AOR).
I did a mini AOR a few months ago for me and the wife, a lazy one I guess. Anyway the credit card offers are starting to come back again, and I'm wondering if it's ok to apply for them as they come in, or just wait until my 12 months are up, pay off everything and then do a massive AOR? I think I read in one of these threads that SIS stated that it will hurt my credit more by spacing it out (which really couldn't be labled an AOR anyway) than doing one massive bliztkrieg of an AOR.
SUCKISSTAPLES said: dont apply to a couple cards here, couple cards there
If you are thinking about applying now, just do a blitzkreig now, do another blitzhreig later. no need to waitjust remember to avoid Russia at all costs.
I think I've read just about every thread on AOR so far. Great information, I was just wondering about applying to the same company for several cards. My interest is to pay off high interest CCs, not to do a real AOR. I have successfully gotten several good offers and was able to take advantage of them. However, for Chase, Citi, AT&T, Discover all rejected apps for multiple cards. Of course I didn't apply for the exact same card, but all repsonded and said they didn't allow multiple apps within a 60 day period. Given all the AORs going on, they obviously do.
So my question is simply how to get multiple cards from the same issuer without hitting this problem. Some rejected additional apps after the apps were submitted, others did during the application process. Are they keying off of SS#, address, email, what?
MicronDeath said: I think I've read just about every thread on AOR so far. Great information, I was just wondering about applying to the same company for several cards. My interest is to pay off high interest CCs, not to do a real AOR. I have successfully gotten several good offers and was able to take advantage of them. However, for Chase, Citi, AT&T, Discover all rejected apps for multiple cards. Of course I didn't apply for the exact same card, but all repsonded and said they didn't allow multiple apps within a 60 day period. Given all the AORs going on, they obviously do.
So my question is simply how to get multiple cards from the same issuer without hitting this problem. Some rejected additional apps after the apps were submitted, others did during the application process. Are they keying off of SS#, address, email, what?
Thanks for any tips.
Discover will reject apps after one. There have been differing stories about Citi. Most folks say 3. I got 3 true Citi cards and AT&T Universal in the same AOR, but they adjusted the CLs down with each one: $12K, $9K, $7.5K, & $2K. I haven't applied or multiple Chase cards, so I can't comment intelligently on that.
I wonder if they are catching on to the AOR thing, or if I was just unfortunate enough to hit some magical alignment of the stars. If anyone else has any real recent experience with these, that might help to see if this is a recent change, or just some dumb luck on my part.
ArbolLoco said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: dont apply to a couple cards here, couple cards there
If you are thinking about applying now, just do a blitzkreig now, do another blitzhreig later. no need to waitjust remember to avoid Russia at all costs.
Especially in the wintertime. Especially if you're short.
MicronDeath said: My interest is to pay off high interest CCs,
So my question is simply how to get multiple cards from the same issuer without hitting this problem.
Thanks for any tips. I think I see the problem in your situation. From your post, you are carrying high interest CCs balances. When you do carry high APR balance, that issuer is VERY UNLIKELY to approve you for a lower rate card.
Carrying high APR balance is a GREAT way to ensure you get declined for low interest cards, especially from the issuers you are currently paying high interest to.
Yes other people are able to get cards bc their credit profiles are more favorable. It sounds to me that your "problem" is not the multiple apps (thats the convenient excuse), your REAL problem is they dont want you to move EXISTING DEBT they are making lots of money on (they wont tell you that).
Luckily there is a simple solution... move the debt to the issuers that are "hungry" to buy your debt at low promo rates, then the other issuers will be more receptive to winning back your business.
Thanks for the feedback, sounds like a plan! I have had some success with Chase. Citi and HSBC seem not to want my business and I haven't heard from a few others yet. As I learned from starting a new business, just keep asking until someone says yes, because eventually they will!
MicronDeath said: As I learned from starting a new business, just keep asking until someone says yes, because eventually they will!that is indeed a good lesson, when it comes to credit cards, business, dating etc
I am considering the 0% for life deal from Discover. Won't this hinder my Yealry AOR's though, since I cant clean it up?
And is there some advantage to the "for life" deal compared to one year/one card at a time approach? THe advantage I see is that you dont have to apply for a new card each year. But thats not convincing me.
cameron2003 said: I am considering the 0% for life deal from Discover. Won't this hinder my Yealry AOR's though, since I cant clean it up?
And is there some advantage to the "for life" deal compared to one year/one card at a time approach? THe advantage I see is that you dont have to apply for a new card each year. But thats not convincing me.
One card with an outstanding balance shouldnt hamper an App-O-Rama assuming everything else about your credit profile is in good order. The advantage of 0% for life is that its a longer 0% period...none of us can predict whether it will be so simple to get 0% offers years from now.
Of course the "for life' deal is not indefinite (it will get paidoff via minium payments in 5-6 years) . But you also have to make those purchases each month.
cameron2003 said: I am considering the 0% for life deal from Discover. Won't this hinder my Yealry AOR's though, since I cant clean it up?It's all about two factors here: your utilization %, and your larger profile.
If you do the Discover deal, keep your % utilization under 50%, and have at least a couple of other open lines to further dilute your utilization, it's hard for forsee that your AOR will be impeded in any meaningful way. OTOH if your utilization is much higher, it could put a big crimp in your plans.
OK, I have a very simple question. having read through a number of these AOR threads:
I'm thinking of getting into the AOR game. I specifically want to take advantage of some 0% BT deals so I can reinvest in HSBC or ED, BUT I don't have any balances at this time.
I don't understand the transition period. How do I go about taking full advantage of a BT deal, without accruing miscellaneous finance charges along the way? I don't want to BT only my monthly charges of several thousand dollars, which wouldn't be worth the effort; but I would like to BT my annual spend. I have a high credit score and total CL of about $80k pre-AOR. How do I 'get started?'
psychtobe said: OK, I have a very simple question. having read through a number of these AOR threads:
I'm thinking of getting into the AOR game. I specifically want to take advantage of some 0% BT deals so I can reinvest in HSBC or ED, BUT I don't have any balances at this time.
I don't understand the transition period. How do I go about taking full advantage of a BT deal, without accruing miscellaneous finance charges along the way? I don't want to BT only my monthly charges of several thousand dollars, which wouldn't be worth the effort; but I would like to BT my annual spend. I have a high credit score and total CL of about $80k pre-AOR. How do I 'get started?'
I have a hard time believing your read through the AoR threads if you don't have an idea on how to get the BT money into your account.
Start with Citi who will send you a check. Also read this.
I've been told twice now by Chase CSRs that they won't consolidate/reallocate credit unless both accounts have been open for more than six months. This should be taken into consideration when planning an AOR, as it will limit the amount of credit available to whatever your new card comes with.
Double App-O-Rama, or App-O-Rama with a Twist, or Bump-O-Rama, or App-O-Siege etc.
1. Full-fledged App-O-Rama 2. Aggressively bump daily your credit reports with as many instruments as you can get, generating several bumps a day. Also use CLI requests that do soft pulls, open banking accounts that do this (but do not pull hards). In about a month, most of the EQ and TU pulls will be gone. Check daily, and if your new accounts haven't appeared yet on the reports (usually it takes between 4 and 6 weeks between account opening and their posting on the credit reports), then... 3. Bonus App-O-Rama, preferably to other issuer than those in the first phase, and to those who are likely to not ask Exp (this is the YMMV part).
Too bad I haven't thought of it before maxing out my possible CLs due to credit/income ratio. But I have grounds to believe it would work if done appropriately.
Pros: it can virtually double the magnitude of an App-O-Rama Cons: Exp is not responsive to this method, and the pulls are not 100% predictible; the adverse effects likelihood is increased due to the high amount of new credit (it also dramatically decreases the average account age); some accounts can be reported earlier than expected, thus forcing you not to do it, etc.
g10ny said: Double App-O-Rama, or App-O-Rama with a Twist, or Bump-O-Rama, or App-O-Siege etc.
1. Full-fledged App-O-Rama 2. Aggressively bump daily your credit reports with as many instruments as you can get, generating several bumps a day. Also use CLI requests that do soft pulls, open banking accounts that do this (but do not pull hards). In about a month, most of the EQ and TU pulls will be gone. Check daily, and if your new accounts haven't appeared yet on the reports (usually it takes between 4 and 6 weeks between account opening and their posting on the credit reports), then... 3. Bonus App-O-Rama, preferably to other issuer than those in the first phase, and to those who are likely to not ask Exp (this is the YMMV part).
Too bad I haven't thought of it before maxing out my possible CLs due to credit/income ratio. But I have grounds to believe it would work if done appropriately.
Pros: it can virtually double the magnitude of an App-O-Rama Cons: Exp is not responsive to this method, and the pulls are not 100% predictible; the adverse effects likelihood is increased due to the high amount of new credit (it also dramatically decreases the average account age); some accounts can be reported earlier than expected, thus forcing you not to do it, etc.
Any thoughts?
Definite green for creativity. I love that you are strategizing for new ways to exploit this more. One major concern I have is that all the BT 0% periods I have seen except for select Citi cards start the clock from the time you apply. Many, many others only waive the fee at the time you apply only. So I'm not sure I'd be willing to give up 6-8 weeks of my 0% period and possibly having to pay $75+ BT fees just so I could try to grab a second round of cards.
Another con is even though you won't get rejected for "too many inquiries" you could still get rejected for "too many new accounts".
Don't let my skepticism stopy you. Try it out if you wish and document it in your own AoR thread.
g10ny said: The key is to do this BEFORE the new accounts post into the credit reports!
Isn't that a pretty tall task to bump a dozen or two inquiries off your credit report BEFORE your new CCs show up and apply for all new cards again? Plus you'll bump up against the "we're sorry, you can only get X # cards in 60 days" notice too.
I thought SIS in another thread said bumpage took quite a while to pull off cleanly.
I've never played the bumpage game myself and for some reason I thought someone once told me I wasn't supposed to talk about it on this forum. I'd run it past SIS and if he approves give it a try (or just give it a try if you want even if he doesn't approve )
Let me go deeper. 1. Yo start the bumpage before the actual AOR. That way, you will have clean records and you'll be ahead in bumps (the "gaps" will likely to be already filled, thus needing less bumps to go off) . 2. You use several "guns" (hence you "besiege" the CRs), therefore you'll have an accelerated bumpage (several a day on each CR). Usually it takes about 3 months to get it. That way, chances are you'll get it sooner. 3. This interval is about the same order of magnitude as the time needed by the new CLs (those acquired in the first stage of AOR) to land on the CRs.
I am sorry this method is not of the type DaveHanson would practice, but... it might work! In fact, I suspect that some of the FWers were not far from being aware of this possibility. Basically, you benefit from the fact of the new accounts not being posted yet, plus from the effect of accelerated bumps, which can get you once again to the previous clean record (at least for EQF and TU) , but only FOR A FEW DAYS before the new accounts get posted on the CRs.
asdf9876 said: g10ny said: The key is to do this BEFORE the new accounts post into the credit reports!
Isn't that a pretty tall task to bump a dozen or two inquiries off your credit report BEFORE your new CCs show up and apply for all new cards again? Plus you'll bump up against the "we're sorry, you can only get X # cards in 60 days" notice too.
I thought SIS in another thread said bumpage took quite a while to pull off cleanly.
I've never played the bumpage game myself and for some reason I thought someone once told me I wasn't supposed to talk about it on this forum. I'd run it past SIS and if he approves give it a try (or just give it a try if you want even if he doesn't approve )
Please, please, please don't let me stop you. I'd love to see new strategies even if they aren't DH approved.
However, your time frame you states was 4-6 weeks. I can get one new card from every major issuer in a single AoR (1 card + reallocation is all you need to pretty much get 95% of the BT money you can get as long as your prevous portfolio was pretty full). So you are going to have to get some pretty major secondary bonuses to forgo 4-6 weeks of interest plus pay additional BT fees for no longer being in the initial sign up phase.
Please go ahead and try if you like though. Very good idea!
1. If the lines are not posted yet, it doesn't matter if you initiate the BTs or not. They will be invisible anyway. Don't worry about that. 2. I'd recommend grouping the same issuers into the same stage of the hypothetical bump-o-rama. Remember, even though the credit reports won't tell anything about the recent activity, if you apply again to the same issuer, it will KNOW what your current standing with it is. Even more, theoretically it has access to your previous pull (4-6 weeks ago) and therefore view your other possible pulls occurred before this issuer pulled your record.
I have a limited evidence about the workability of this method. As I said before, I reached the limits allowed for my (tiny) income in a previous AOR, I've done a few apps about 6 weeks ago, and last week I was almost spotless as far as EQF and TU concerns. And I said, wth, and did a few applications. Citi approved one, the CLI on another Citi seems not to be approved, I suspect because I have reached their limit, and a CU approved me for what I asked, $5K. The next day, they pulled my EQ CR again, it was still approved but with only $1K (unfortunately they asked about individual, not household income). Unfortunately, I was turned down again by HSBC's Direct Rewards...
g10ny said: Let me go deeper. 1. Yo start the bumpage before the actual AOR. That way, you will have clean records and you'll be ahead in bumps (the "gaps" will likely to be already filled, thus needing less bumps to go off) . 2. You use several "guns" (hence you "besiege" the CRs), therefore you'll have an accelerated bumpage (several a day on each CR). Usually it takes about 3 months to get it. That way, chances are you'll get it sooner. 3. This interval is about the same order of magnitude as the time needed by the new CLs (those acquired in the first stage of AOR) to land on the CRs.
.Im all for new twists and creative thinking too..but some things are cause for concern...
For one I think the timing of the softs would work against you..if you do multiple soft hits BEFOREHAND, to the point where old inquiries start getting bumped off, all the hard inquiries incurred as part of the App-O-Rama will be last...
As you said , it typically takes 3 months or so for bumpage to bump off inquiries, and if the hards are towards the end of a long list of inquiries, you'd need ANOTHER several dozen softs after the AOR to bump those hards off. I think it would be extra difficult as many of those places who pulled soft beforehand arent going to pull soft again...they will say "sorry sir you just made that request last month"
Also, wouldnt this type of seige be much more likely to result in split file? Then again, that could be a good thing depending which file the 2nd round of AOR checks
I would be very interested to see your results if you try this approach... unfortunately I have a hunch this is getting too greedy and runs the risk of too many problems. The whole point of App-O-Rama is to get a lot of credit while not appearing like you are getting lots of credit (you dont want to look like you are about to BK..this is the creditors biggest flag)....staying under the radar with the intent the creditors dont see all the activity. It would be very hard to pull all this off w/o some issuers catching wind and shutting you down for BK/fraud concerns.
I already expressed my concerns. The split file is another one (thanks for contributing to your own thread ). Anyway, I truly believe it is risker than the regular AOR.
Being mainly a theorist, I estimate this as being about the last thing that can really be done in terms of AORs. Risk (and what risk...) is definitely worth to be taken into account. Comes with the whole package.
g10ny said: 1. Yo start the bumpage before the actual AOR. That way, you will have clean records and you'll be ahead in bumps (the "gaps" will likely to be already filled, thus needing less bumps to go off) . 2. You use several "guns" (hence you "besiege" the CRs), therefore you'll have an accelerated bumpage (several a day on each CR). Usually it takes about 3 months to get it. That way, chances are you'll get it sooner. 3. This interval is about the same order of magnitude as the time needed by the new CLs (those acquired in the first stage of AOR) to land on the CRs.
I am sorry this method is not of the type DaveHanson would practice, but...And you would think this...why?
Not to pick on you at all. I appreciate your high quality posts here at FWF. I've just been puzzled with the several posts here recently that allegedly channel my thinking, even when it's thinking I wouldn't recognize...
Not only is their validity to your approach, but I DO in fact "practice" variations on this technique. It's especially useful when you get a tasty offer or two just weeks after doing a little AOR, and want to get in "under the wire".
I keep privacygaurd and truecredit BOTH paid up ($99 year) in part to get the extra dose of bumpage that comes in handy in such situations. It's paid for itself many, many times over. Anyway, I truly believe it is riskier than the regular AOR.Let's be sure to keep our terms & categories clear here.
As I understand it, you're exploring the use of a single tactic (bumpage) that can help a person get more mileage out of a technique (AOR). There's nothing "riskier" about using it --indeed, all else equal, it mitigates risk by cleaning up those nasty little inquiries quicker than would otherwise be the case.
Now, what WOULD be riskier would be to try to stack a second, full-blown AOR #2 on top of just finished AOR #1. But that's despite bumpage, not because of it. What might work well would be to, say, take the best five apps, do lots of bumpage, then take the next 2-3 best ones that show up after the first wave of 5.
What might work well would be to, say, take the best five apps, do lots of bumpage, then take the next 2-3 best ones that show up after the first wave of 5.
That's refined, almost decadent I might add, another requirement is to keep the app form the same issuer in the same wave, because they can see if you recently applied for their cards, even though they do not appear in the CR yet, nor do the pulls show up in it anymore.
Dave, I invoked you (and thanks for your comments about my posts), aside of the need for an "expert" audience (I consider you as such), because I really had in mind a full-blown second-stage AOR, as opposed to your advices to minimize risks. Your idea of making a smaller one is definitely less risker and more feasible too. Your model of practice is one of a soft bump-o-rama, as opposed to my aggressive type one. Personally though, I am more inclined toward following your model. In fact, this is what I've just done.
I might just add that it can still be done when you only have a few (one or two) pulls in your CR. I currently use THREE "guns": the free PrivacyMatters (1 triple plus 1 TU extra), CreditSecure from AmE>< (1 triple) and a discounted Equifax Gold at $7 a month through this link. I used them for some time, in order to clean after a May AOR, and kept on experimenting. I am not telling that their cost is insignificant, even more, my level of AORs is of only about a few grand, in this case the whole game is barely paying itself. I am in it mainly for learning purposes. A conclusion I have drawn is that, for bigger AORs, involving lots of cards and high BT balances, in order to minimize the adverse risks it would be useful to use several of these, as an oil barrel to calm the waves. At least for me it seems to have worked.
OK, this is not the best place for discussing about bumpage, and I will stop here. But the relevance of the discussion is clear, since it has direct implications upon this hot t0pic, AORs.
Goals: 1) AOR with Focus on sign up bonuses. With a relatively short(<2yrs), but gleaming(no late payments, student loan deferred) credit history with revolving accounts, I decided large CL's(for use with 0% BT offers) would be unlikely. Cash and Cardoffers checks are preferred, but with a consolidated school loan, TY pts are just as good with student loan rebates. Not huge on the miles thing, but maybe you can convince me otherwise. 2) Establish lines of credit with different banks for future AOR's. 3) A few lucrative rewards cards(Fidelity 529, HSBC)
HAVE Personal Chase Rewards Plus Visa (2,000) Citi Diamond Preferred Mastercard (9,800) Citi MtvU Visa (500, but CR shows 4,000) Discover Student Card (2,500) Business Advanta Platinum Business Mastercard (2,500) (Citi, Discover and Advanta's were obtained about 5 months ago)
DESIRE (20 accounts) Personal AMEX Blue Cash ($40 thru Cardoffers) - APPROVED (2,000) AMEX Preferred Rewards Gold ($40 thru Cardoffers, $100 gift card) - DECLINED (Duplicate App? see below) BofA World Pts Platinum Plus($75 after 1st purchase) - APPROVED (2,000) Chase Cash Plus Rewards Visa ($100 after 1st purchase) - DECLINED (too many recent apps, see below) Chase Cash Plus Rewards Mastercard ($100 after 1st purchase) - DECLINED (same) Citi AT&T Universal Rewards (10k TY pts after 1st purchase) - APPROVED (2,800, 0% 12 months) Citi Professional ($40 thru Cardoffers, 10k TY pts) - APPROVED (2,500, 0% 9 months) Discover Miles ($40 thru Cardoffers and 12k miles) - DECLINED (not long enough history w/Discover) Fidelity 529 Rewards Card (No bonus?, but 2% CashBack to 529 acct) - APPROVED (2,000) First USA United Milage Plus Visa (25,000 miles after $250) - APPROVED (2,800) HSBC Direct Rewards Mastercard (no bonus?) - APPROVED (no details) Pulaski Bank Gold Visa ($40 thru Cardoffers) - Didn't Apply Sony Rewards Card ($100 after 1st purchase) - APPROVED (6,000) WaMu Providian (for monthly credit score) - DECLINED (no details in letter, not writing)
Business AMEX Blue Cash Business ($75 thru Cardoffers) - APPROVED (3,000) AMEX Gold Reward Business ($100 statement credit after $100 spent,$50 in AMEX pts, $150 Tiger Direct gc) - APPROVED (No Pre-set Spending Limit) CitiBusiness with TY Network (15k TY pts) - APPROVED (4,000) CitiBusiness PremierPass (15k TY pts) - APPROVED (4,000) First USA United Mileage Plus Business Card (25,000miles after $250) - APPROVED (10,000)
Total Possible Bonuses from 20 Accounts $275 check from Cardoffers $825 cash/statement credits 50,000 ThankYou Points $150 AMEX Points for GC's $150 Tiger Direct GC 50,000 Miles
Total Recieved Bonuses from 14 Accounts $155 check from Cardoffers $625 cash/statement credits 50,000 ThankYou Points $50 AMEX Points for GC's $150 Tiger Direct GC 50,000 Miles (1-2 tix, depending on flight)
App Issuer Count AMEX - 4 Citi - 4 Chase - 4(United Mileage are Chase) (the rest are individual)
Current(10/17) FAKO scores are EX - 728, EQ - 707 and TU - 695. These have risen from 655, 643, and 673 since 7/17. I realize most who begin AOR's begin with FICO's in the 740+ range, but in hope of obtaining large credit limits and 0% offers for BT game. I am merely seeking approvals. I realize waiting another 2-3 months would solve this, but I am a little worried about a few of the bonuses disappering(mainly $200 from ill-fated 5% Chase cards). Resources like SIS's webpage, and other AOR threads have been a great help thus far. Also, suggestions for other cards/bonuses is much appreciated.
Completed before Bonus-o-rama: Re-allocated 5k of 5.5k from MtvU to Diamond Preferred to create 9.8k CL. I don't eat/go to movies more than $500/month anyway. Balance reports to CB's on 11/04, at which I will pull the trigger. After last new app, I then plan to request CL increase on Chase from 2k -> 10k CL with updated new household income of 65k(from 21k, now that I have 2 housemates). I figure having a CL near 10k would be helpful before beginning.
Update(11/5): Started this morning with Chase Cash Plus cards, as they were the only two that required calling in. Then applied for business cards, then other personal cards that had best bonuses first. As you can see, my spree resulted in a lot of deferred decisions, but I am happy with 3 of 4 AMEX's already approved. CL's are a little low, but I was merely going for bonuses. Was dissapointed that Citi AT&T Universal Rewards changed their offer on Cardoffers from $40 and 10k TY points to $30 and 6k points, so I went with direct link that just gives 10k points. After all the apps, I called Chase about my Rewards Plus and asked for a 10k CLI. Decision wasn't instant, so I will know in a few days.
Currently Scores(Privacy Matters, pulled daily, major updates below) TU - 695, EX - 728, EQ - 703 (11/4) TU - 686, EX - 713, EQ - 684 (11/5) TU - 688, EX - 697, EQ - 688 (11/7) TU - 671, EX - 697, EQ - 673 (11/15) TU - 669, EX - 694, EQ - 671 (11/26) TU - 696, EX - 719, EQ - 704 (12/1) Bumpage?!
Available Credit 17,300 -> 60,600(so far)
Notes 1) Completing this spree during a weekday might have helped get more instant decisions. Any thoughts on this? 2) I started this morning thinking that my Citi Diamond CL would be showing 9800, as it should have been reported yesterday. Turns out it wasn't, and the 9800 showed only on Equifax. A ~10k credit line make have helped a bit. 3) The AMEX Preferred Rewards Gold that I applied for through Cardoffers somehow got recieved as another app for Gold Rewards Business. They declined because of duplicate app, and I'm really not sure how it happened. 4) Chase declined both apps or Cash Plus Rewards, claiming a duplicate app and too many recent inquiries. Others have been accepted for both Visa and MC, and these were the first two cards I applied for. Again, maybe the weekend caused them not to pull my credit until Monday. Who knows. 5) Haven't heard back on my 10k CLI request on Rewards Plus, or CL on HSBC yet.
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