Ok, first and foremost this thread isn't about defrauding people, running shady ops, or scamming people and getting away with it.
This is about keeping what you own. People get sued ALL THE TIME, as you can see Here
Now, most people are completely clueless and blissfully ignorant about the chances of getting sued and how to respond. Upwards of 90% of all cases against consumers result in default judgments. Now while some of this is due to people not being served, a good number is due to simple fear or not knowing how to respond. Although how to respond to a suit is worthy of another thread, but if you ARE going to be ignorant about how to defend yourself, the least you can do is NOT MAKE YOURSELF A TARGET AND SET UP PROTECTIONS NOW.
People only worry about this when they have been sued or it appears that it might soon happen. Bad idea. There is something called a fraudulent transfer, that you must be aware of. If you are sued, and then transfer your 100M in cash to another entity or you "gift" it to your wife/kids, these transactions can be unwound by a court if the judge deems it to be an attempt to hide assets from creditors. Now, if you have all this set up BEFORE the fact, these assets aren't likely to be discovered, and even if they are, it isn't a fraudulent transfer. It is all about the timing of the transaction.
Just as retirement planning should be done before you retire, asset protection should be done BEFORE YOU ARE SUED.
Key points in keeping your assets safe:
#1 Privacy! Get yourself some pretty good privacy. This doesn't mean living in a cave or a shack in Montana. You can hide in plain sight and live, work, play and lead a very normal life without putting your entire business out in the street.
All it takes are a few modifications to your current situation and behavior, and you will be significantly more private than most people.
Keep in mind, if you have a government agency or someone with a lot of time/money on their hands, chances are that absent of living in a cave, you WILL be more than likely discovered at some point. The whole point of this exercise is to make the search expensive and time consuming, as opposed to a quick look through the phone book. Further still, if you can't be found, you can't be sued. Even if they fabricate the service documents, which happens more than you know, and they sue you and win, they STILL can't do anything if they can't find you. They can't haul you in for a debtor's hearing, and they can't attach/seize assets they can't find.
Many people think technology has created all sorts of ways to find people, and to an extent it has, but for every door they close, another opens up.
#1 Phones: Get a VOIP phone. Ditch the landline if you are still messing around with one of those. I know MCI and SBC insist on pulling a credit report, assuming you give them your SSN, and besides that absurdity, VOIP is cheaper and offers more features than your typical phone service.
Best of all, you can get a number or two numbers from any area code you want. Live in NYC? Get that Cali number. From Alabama? How about a michigan number. Many of these VOIP services also have features where you can automatically block "Private" numbers as well, so you don't have to worry about unwanted calls from people that don't want to identify themselves.
Speaking of phone numbers, don't call 800 numbers, since they can caputre your phone number. If you have VOIP it is generally unlimited anyway.
Lastly, don't leave your phone number on your credit reports, and don't give it out freely. Just get a free voicemail service that emails you when you have a call.
If you MUST call an 800 number or someone you don't want to trace you, just go to WalMart and buy a phone card.
#2 Address: Get a PO BOX.
They are cheap, MUCH more secure than regular mail sitting in a mailbox or items being left on your front door, and they offer a primary layer of security. Granted, your are supposed to list your address, but this is spotty at best. Some places check this, and some don't. Just find a post office where it isn't a big deal and get a PO Box.
Imagine on your credit reports nothing but a list of PO boxes instead of addresses where you have lived.
Granted, a judgment creditor CAN obtain your information from the post office using the appropriate form, but just remember what was true when you signed up may later change.
The primary rule of thumb is: Never allow your place of residency to be connected with your name. This includes the DMV, IRS, and other government agencies. Pay your taxes, but they should only have your PO BOX as your address.
#3 Credit reports: Ask me no questions, and I'll tell no lies.
Credit reports are the Hallmark for disinformation if you choose. At a minimum, there are several things you DO NOT want on them: Driver's license number, phone number (or at least your REAL phone number), and employment. None of these things are related to credit, credit scoring, etc...
If you apply for some credit, just let the potential creditor know these things, NOT the credit bureaus.
Also, don't send in your driver's license to the credit bureaus or any picture ID or ID's with a signature. I was asked once for ID from the bureaus and they got my SS Card and my Blockbuster card. No sig's, no pictures, and they are proper ID.
#4 Banking
Bank far, far away from where you really live. Never, EVER hold a ton of cash at a local bank or credit union. The first thing a creditor will do is you are sued and lose is blanket the local banks with writs of garnishment. Sure, that can work on a local level, but when you have to pick every state of the union, it is generally cost prohibitive.
As stated in the safe deposit box thread, you probably don't want to keep anything of value in a local CU. Possibly important papers, but stash your rare gold coin collection somewhere else.
You need to be truthful on credit/banking app's, but one easy way to hold money anonymously is to just set up a non-interest bearing account in a small bank outside of your hometown. If they don't pull a credit report, you are set.
#5 Owning property: Own nothing, control everything.
The #1 worst thing you can do is to own a bunch of assets in your name. People get some feeling of security from this, but in reality it is one of the worst things you can do. Assets in your name can be easily found and attached.
Assets in a trust's name are MUCH harder to locate, and assets in a LLC are harder to locate (depending on the corp type and location) and even harder to attach.
Your car, house, and other valuables should all be in the corporate name. This adds a layer of pricacy, as anyone looking for John Smith probably won't be looking for the "Smith family trust" or the "Smith enterprises, LLC", and further won't be able to tie the Smith enterprises LLC to Mr. Smith.
When you put these assets in these various entities, you still retain full control, you can sell them, trade them, whatever, and use them as you normally would in most cases. The only difference is they are much harder to find and attach.
This is just a starter thread. Ideas are welcome. As much as people here at FW talk about making money, some thought might be given to keeping it in a worst case scenario.
I think it is better to watch what you doing and avoid law suits is easier than hiding from it.
mst3k
Senior Member
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 10:25p
I still don't get why I have to have a safe deposit box in another town. I understand they might try to take my money from my bank account but they can't see inside my safe deposit box.
Are you saying if I owe someone money they can get a court order to look inside my safe deposit box to see if there is anything in there they like? But at the same time they can't get a court order to make me list all of my safe deposit boxes?
This is just a theoretical question. I actually am feeling quite good based on your scenarios. I haven't had a land line in at least 5 years. I haven't lived at the same address for more than 8 months at a time (usually not in the same state for more than 8 months at a time, school and job are very far apart). I have a half dozen checking accounts scattered across the country with less than $25 in them (yeah sign up bonuses!). All my real money are in online accounts which have headquarters very far away from me. I don't have a safety desposit box at all. I drive a different way home each day....I put a glass bottle on my doornob in case someone tries to pick it...
I am not a lawyer like you guys...but wouldn't having an umbrella policy be a more practical way to protect yourself rather than ditching your phone line? Or is having an umbrella policy like putting up a sign, "I'm rich, please sue me because I have a fat insurance policy!".
MilesHeighway
Broke Member
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 10:37p
jayK said: Don't you think you're being a little extreme? Just get umbrella liability insurance, and you'll be pretty well protected from lawsuits.
I think codename47 forgot to mention "Get a Bunker".
There should be some sort of balance in our lives. I think this is rather extreme, but then again, it is still good advice for those who think that they might get sued one day.
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 10:39p
mst3k said: Are you saying if I owe someone money they can get a court order to look inside my safe deposit box to see if there is anything in there they like? But at the same time they can't get a court order to make me list all of my safe deposit boxes?Is a safety deposit box rented by, say, an aunt and paid for by said aunt "your" box? What if your aunt also keeps a substantial amount of material in the box... is it "your" box? I really can't get more in-depth into this without doing a very tiresome legal analysis, this is ONE possible alternative outcome.
tips:
My home address appears NOWHERE on any of my credit reports. I rent a PMB and have consistently and diligently used the PMB address for all my financial transactions. Not only does this afford me an additional layer of privacy, but it will make any attempt to serve me with a summons or otherwise disrupt my personal life much more difficult. I use it on my DL and for virtually all official purposes. Keep in mind, a PMB is different from a PO Box: a PO Box is listed as such... a PMB looks like an apartment address... 123 Sesame Street #227.
REal property: There are many ways to exercise control of real property. Some of them allow you to maintain beneficial or actual ownership of the property while sufficiently attenuating it from your name or your "obviously related" entities. I will not go into this further, but would rather advise you to consult an attorney who can help make the most of this strategy for you. Conventional or foreign trusts are another tool that can be used to achieve your asset protection objectives... and believe it or not they are not expensive to set up... just make sure you have a competent attorney prepare it. Attorneys often execute these types of transactions incorrectly [I see them on a daily basis], so make sure you get referred to an attorney who specializes in these types of transactions. Such an attorney should have contacts in countries who will serve as corporate officers and/or trustees.
Real property: Creating holding corporations for individual [especially income-producing multi-unit residential] properties can compartmentalize liability and keep it from metastisizing into a general lien against all your real/personal property within the County in which you are being sued.
More to come...
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 10:42p
MilesHeighway said: jayK said: Don't you think you're being a little extreme? Just get umbrella liability insurance, and you'll be pretty well protected from lawsuits.
I think codename47 forgot to mention "Get a Bunker".
There should be some sort of balance in our lives. I think this is rather extreme, but then again, it is still good advice for those who think that they might get sued one day.There are certain types of business ventures... any type of healthcare-related business or [large] multi-unit residential properties that will almost guarantee that you will be dragged into litigation... often over some employee's bad act that was completely unexpected.
Also remember that the insurance companies = SATAN. They are not there to protect you... they are in the business of NOT paying out policies. It has been my experience that in litigation, the insurance companies will attempt to exclude a particular act as non-covered. This basically turns into a three-way tug-of-war. Often carriers will impugn some act of yours as being the non-covered proximate or legal cause of the injury. Thoughtful asset protection is in essence a valuable form of self-insurance that can pay off in spades down the line.
Another one. If you give property to a trusted relative with the expectation that it can/will/must be returned to you some day... do you have an ownership interest in said property? Depends on the existence of some secret/semisecret trust... or the nonexistence thereof. The issue can be framed accordingly, especially by a lawyer skilled in this particular field.
This leads me to the primary reason that you should not make it easy to check out your assets: The first thing that any competent lawyer would do when considering you as a potential Defendant is to do an asset search on you. If the asset search does not reveal certain valuable assets of yours, you can be sure that that lawyer will be substantially less inclined to prosecute you. It's the old "blood out of a rock" philosophy: an uncollectable judgment for $1,000,000 is worth exactly $0. Many people live the "asset free" lifestyle, and certain people are definitely very well suited for it.
edit:
I have a client who is an "asset free" evangelist, always tryign to get me to convert. I'll talk with him tomorrow and see if he has any tips that I may have forgotten.
So how do online banks like ING and ED hold up in asset protection? Easy or more difficult to find?
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 11:00p
I would also STRONGLY SUGGEST that if you have substantial assets that you are concerned about from a liability standpoint, to consult an attorney. The characterization of certain pieces of property can often hinge on a clever lawyer's positions and representations, and a judge's predisposition towards accepting such positions and representations. This is also an area of law where a specialization is very valuable.
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 11:10p
Im curious if you follow your own advice: Do you have no landline, no local bank, use only a PO box and have no real property in your name?
You are correct. I have no landline, VOIP phone, I have a local bank, with all of .53 cents in there (dis-information is a effective as well. Imagine their surprise when they garnish the local bank, figure they've "got" me, then pull out little more than two quarters. Plus, this tips me off well in advance.), I have a PO Box, and I don't have any significant property titled in my name.
The only number I have on my credit reports is a prepaid cell phone. Again, I appreciate any tipoff's/advance warnings I can get. All I need to know is who you are and why you are calling to go into action.
I don't have a phone number anywhere close to where I live. I don't live anywhere close to where my phone numbers are. If you call me, you can blanket the local area with writs of garnishment, you won't find me. If you DO find out where I live, you won't be able to seize anything because you probably won't be able to find it, and absent me telling you, you are pretty much up the proverbial creek. Now, lets talk on MY terms, when and where *I* feel like, IF I feel like it at all.
I'm not trying to negotiate with someone once they have my money.
Don't you think you're being a little extreme? Just get umbrella liability insurance, and you'll be pretty well protected from lawsuits.
I may be extreme, but then again, better to be safe than sorry. Why get an umbrella policy when I can just shuffle some paperwork and be as protected if not more?
Truthfully, why not do both? Get an umbrella policy, AND take care of your assets?
Seriously, what have I said that is difficult? Possibly setting up a corp/trust, but really that is a paperwork drill. VOIP is easy and cheap. A PO Box is easy and cheap (I actually prefer it to having just a regular mailbox), banking is easy with online access. You can do 99% of what you can at a regular bank without lines and the hassle. Titling property is again a few sheets of paper and a few bucks in fees.
This could all be done in a weekend or two inbetween your next app o rama.
In the same thread, people may think I am extreme that I own several guns. I hope to never be in a shootout, but if I am, I at least have a fighting chace, and you can't ask for much more than that.
WHen you know you are getting sued move all the money to swiss account?
Because it is a fraudulent transfer, people look for this sort of thing, and you'll probably get caught. The caribbean/swiss bank account connection is largely closed.
The time to take action is before, not after.
I understand they might try to take my money from my bank account but they can't see inside my safe deposit box.
If they get a court order, they certainly can.
Are you saying if I owe someone money they can get a court order to look inside my safe deposit box to see if there is anything in there they like?
Yup.
But at the same time they can't get a court order to make me list all of my safe deposit boxes?
No, they can. That is the whole debtor's exam thing, Arbol was referring to.
I have a half dozen checking accounts scattered across the country with less than $25 in them (yeah sign up bonuses!).
Good, keep it that way. Never hurts to have a checking account you can fall back to...just in case.
Nobody is going to really know if you have an umbrella policy, until you get sued, but you are assuming it is 100% that the policy will pay. Better to not take chances, then to be faced with an "whoops, I guess I wasn't covered..." scenario.
One more thing to add, if you LOOK poor, your chances of getting sued go down probably as well, or the lawyer might go from contingency to hourly after a property and vehicle search turn up nothing.
Needless to say, if you ever ARE called into a debtor's hearing, don't wear your rolex
So how do online banks like ING and ED hold up in asset protection? Easy or more difficult to find?
It is probably much better to have one of these than a local bank. Granted, if they pull a report, IMHO that reduces their attractiveness. No credit pull and an online bank is ideal.
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 11:10p
Also, non-transparancy with respect to real property assets can also spare you from having a lis pendens recorded against certain properties of yours. I am going to file one next week, and this is going to put a SERIOUS crimp in any attempt to liquidate, alienate or encumber this property. This can SEVERLY limit your options before a lawsuit is even filed, remember a lis pendens can be filed with zero notice.
Some posters here have also recommended call forwarding services.
mst3k
Senior Member
posted: Aug. 27, 2006 @ 11:47p
Ok, so the whole distance thing is people are agressive enough to blanket the town where I live but they are too lazy to perform a debtor's exam? Or the debtor's exam takes so long to happen that I flee the country by then?
herrtodd
Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:00a
I rent a PMB and have consistently and diligently used the PMB address for all my financial transactions. Not only does this afford me an additional layer of privacy, but it will make any attempt to serve me with a summons or otherwise disrupt my personal life much more difficult.
In California, having a PMB doesn't actually make it hard to serve you at all; it makes it easy. If you list a PMB, all a process server has to do is give the suit/summons to a person in charge at the private mailbox place and mail another copy to the same place. This is called "substitute" service and is considered complete 10 days after the documents are mailed.
I have one tip, if'n you're playing online poker, don't flip it for $20 large (an agreement to go all in preflop like a coinflip without knowing your hole cards) against Mike Matusow. Link to someone losing $20k in a flip against Matusow
MilesHeighway
Broke Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:29a
By the way, the getting VOIP phone thingie is kinda naive. You still need DSL or cable, and some telco or cable company is going to run a cable to your house in some form.
As for getting out-state phone numbers, that's irrelavant, each call can be ultimately trace to where your line ends, be it VOIP or house phone. Think 911. Besides, they just have to look at your house address or PO box address that your DSL/cable bill is being sent to. This is the same thing as having an out-of-state cellphone, which won't protect you if people want to chase you down.
Phone ID blocking features are available on land lines too (if you are paranoid about people tracing your calls via Caller ID, use a phonecard).
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:33a
Ok, so the whole distance thing is people are agressive enough to blanket the town where I live but they are too lazy to perform a debtor's exam? Or the debtor's exam takes so long to happen that I flee the country by then?
No, you don't have to flee the country, but you do want to make the process of tracking you down more expensive and time consuming than again, flipping through the phone book, serving you at home, suing you to get a default, and then serving the large national banks in the area (WMAU, Chase, Citi, Wells Fargo, BOA) where you bank and taking your paycheck because "you didn't think you'd get sued"
People ARE lazy. People want cheap, easy results. Doing the above paperwork drill probably doesn't cost more than 50-$100 bucks and takes 30-90 days. The more you make them work, the less applicant's you'll have.
Collection lawyers promise fast, cheap results. They file these cases literally by the hundreds. If you are the one that got away, do you think they are going to focus on you or the other 99 people they DID tag?
Debtor's exams add another layer of difficulty and expense. Lawyer's don't work for free. If you hired one, you have to pay for them to head to court, time, expenses involved, etc.. All of this time/energy is expended to possibly hear "Yeah, I just lost my job, and I don't own anything?"
In California, having a PMB doesn't actually make it hard to serve you at all; it makes it easy. If you list a PMB, all a process server has to do is give the suit/summons to a person in charge at the private mailbox place and mail another copy to the same place. This is called "substitute" service and is considered complete 10 days after the documents are mailed.
Great, you served me. Let's even say you win. Now what? You still can't find me, and unless you bank locally, have assets you can easily find, or find me, you have an expensive piece of paper.
Everyone acts like a lawsuit or judgment is just the end all be all no matter what a lawyer tell you. Obviously it is better to have one than to not, but you don't just walk down to a bank and cash one.
ilovelucy
Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:34a
Great thread! Lots to think about.
Do you happen to know off hand which online banks Do Not pull cred. rpts like you were talking about?
herrtodd
Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:39a
Great, you served me. Let's even say you win. Now what? You still can't find me, and unless you bank locally, have assets you can easily find, or find me, you have an expensive piece of paper.
I'm certainly not disagreeing with that. Though if an insurance company is on the hook, having even a default judgement would be quite helpful.
To get back to the reason I posted, though: The OP stated that having a PMB makes service harder. That's just not true.
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:42a
You still need DSL or cable, and some telco or cable company is going to run a cable to your house in some form.
True
As for getting out-state phone numbers, that's irrelavant, each call can be ultimately trace to where your line ends, be it VOIP or house phone. Think 911.
Assuming you sign up for E-911...
Besides, they just have to look at your house address or PO box address that your DSL/cable bill is being sent to.
And therein lies the rub! How do they get that bill? I'm certainly not going to give it to them. Do you search in the area code where the calls originate from or where the house is? Do you think they can just roll up to cable company XYZ and say "show me a bill for Codename_47 or for address 1234? Sure, with a subpoena they could, but to get one they'd have to serve me, which means they'd have to know where I live, and if they knew that, they wouldn't need to get the subpoena.
Again, all you have is possibly an old address, probably a PO Box, and a phone number from an area code far, far away. How do you know where I live?
This brings up one Caveat, I forgot:
Don't have utilities or bills to your house come in your name, and don't give out your SSN when signing up for this stuff. Better yet, pick a common name, and you are good.
"I'm in the witness protection program, and I can't divulge that or I don't have one or I don't give that out"
They'll probably make you pay a deposit, which probably will get refunded at the end of the year, as long as you pay on time. PAY ON TIME. This isn't about ripping off the utility companies.
i didn't know if i should post this here or in the other thread.
anyway, these guys are making this sound easier than it really is. let me first say i am almost as paranoid as they are. i have a safe deposit box in another state. it is a small non-public s&l. box dept is not computerized and they literally have an index box where they pull the signature cards after i tell them my name, it's not orgered by number, go figure. then they verify my signature and id, so i don't know how this grandma's box thing would work in my case since i probably wouldn't have access.
but anyway, in this day and age, things get more complicated, so unless ur starting with a blank slate, it may already be too late for most people here. for example, most people bank at national banks, i think in the other thread BOA was mentioned. with national banks, all their info is computerized and centralized, even their safe deposit boxes. online only banks like ING? if i were an attorney for the creditor, i'd shoot off a subpoena to at least the big ones.
also with even with accts in other states, most people fund these by ACH. this info will be available if u do it from a local bank to the non-local bank, another dead giveaway since they subpoena this info too. also, most people nowadays have their paycheck directly deposited into their bank acct. possible pitfalls here, if they don't know ur employer but they know ur bank, they'll know it now. if they knew ur employer but didn't know ur bank, they know that now. more pitfalls? well, it's a given that they have ur credit report, so they know ur credit card info. they can contact the issuer and subpoena more info. i'm sure u pay their bill monthly, is it via online banking or check? hmmm..
more things to ponder, ever notice how utilities or companies want to make it easier for u to pay ur bill by debiting ur bank acct? or how the gov't wants to send u ur refund quicker by direct deposit? sure, they want to make ur life easier right? it's actually cuz they want to know where to go look for ur funds when u become a deadbeat. again more info for the creditors.
so my point is, this is a very good topic, but it is very difficult for the layperson to setup effectively.
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:43a
I don't think netbak pulls one. You'd be suprised how many banks allow you to sign up over the phone or online.
"Teaching you how to scam, defraud, and run shady ops since 1999"
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:52a
MilesHeighway said: By the way, the getting VOIP phone thingie is kinda naive. You still need DSL or cable, and some telco or cable company is going to run a cable to your house in some form.All services in my home are in my gf's name.
herrtodd said: I rent a PMB and have consistently and diligently used the PMB address for all my financial transactions. Not only does this afford me an additional layer of privacy, but it will make any attempt to serve me with a summons or otherwise disrupt my personal life much more difficult.
In California, having a PMB doesn't actually make it hard to serve you at all; it makes it easy. If you list a PMB, all a process server has to do is give the suit/summons to a person in charge at the private mailbox place and mail another copy to the same place. This is called "substitute" service and is considered complete 10 days after the documents are mailed.
In other states YMMV, of course.The people who run my PMB have a policy to refuse to accept process of service, as well as specific instructions to refuse to accept service of process.
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:55a
Ok, so don't have a local bank at all. Either close it or better yet, if there are no account fees or minimums, just leave it alone.
but anyway, in this day and age, things get more complicated, so unless ur starting with a blank slate, it may already be too late for most people here. for example, most people bank at national banks, i think in the other thread BOA was mentioned.
I don't think it is too late. True, they may contact your employer, but again that takes time and money. Probably a good idea to not do business with your large banks anyway. Did anyone not hear about that ENORMOUS ID theft scam going on with that PI in NJ? It involved a PI and just about every major bank that was selling your info for all of $20.
Are you SURE you want to do business with these places? I'll take their cheap debt, but no thanks on depositing my money there.
This is mainly 1st level protections, not how to disappear completely, of course, LLC's and trusts are your friend! Again, don't own property in your name.
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 12:55a
DPG said: Fatwallet.com
"Teaching you how to scam, defraud, and run shady ops since 1999"This from the guy who admittedly and regularly participates in pyramid schemes? Pot, meet kettle.
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 1:06a
codename47 said: True, they may contact your employer, but again that takes time and money.If they contacted my employer and did anything more than ask to speak with me, I would sue them for tortious interference with business relationship.
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 1:10a
Sample questions to expect in a Debtor Examination:
1. What's your home address? 2. What's your home telephone number? 3. Are you married or do you have registered domestic partnership? If so, what's the first name, maiden name, and last name of your spouse or domestic partner? 4. Do you live in a rented apartment? A single family home? A condo? A mobile home? What's the address? 5. If you live in a single family home, condo, or mobile home, do you own it? 6. If you live in a rented apartment, who pays the rent? To whom is it paid? 7. Is it paid by check? Is your rent/mortgage up to date? 8. Do you have any boarders or subtenants? If so, what are their names and how much do they pay you each month? 9. Do you have a vacation home, recreational vehicle, or boat? 10. What's your occupation? 11. What's your social security number? 12. Are you presently employed? If so, by whom? 13. At what address? Where is the payroll office located? 14. What's your work telephone number? 15. What's the name of your supervisor? 16. What's your gross salary? What's your net salary? What payroll deductions are made? 17. Do you receive commissions? When are you paid? 18. How much is owed to you now? 19. Do you have any part-time employment? If so, please explain. 20. Is your spouse or domestic partner employed or in business? If so, what's his or her salary? What is the address of his or her workplace? 21. Do you own any stock or any interest in the business where you work? If so, please explain. 22. Do you or your spouse or domestic partner have any bank checking or savings accounts? If so, what's the name of the bank branch, and what are the account numbers and present balances? 23. Do you, your spouse, or domestic partner have a driver's license? For what state? What are the driver's license numbers? 24. How did you get here today? 25. What's the year and make of your car? Do you own it? Is it financed? By whom? How is owed? 26. Do you have any credit cards? Can you get a cash advance on any of those cards? 27. What type of retirement accounts do you have? Are you able to borrow against your retirement account? 28. Do you have life insurance? Is it a whole life policy? 29. Do you have any property, personal effects, cash, or other assets that you've not yet mentioned? If so, please explain. 30. Do you understand that as long as the judgment remains unpaid, it accrues interest at the rate of 10% per year? Do you also understand that as long as the judgment remains unpaid, it is probably damaging to your credit rating? Do you understand that if the judgment remains unpaid, I have the right to examine you again in 120 days?
herrtodd
Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 1:11a
The people who run my PMB have a policy to refuse to accept process of service, as well as specific instructions to refuse to accept service of process.
For a California small claims action, all you have to do is leave it with the person at the counter. There's nothing for anybody to sign. (Read the instructions with form SC-104, or CA Code of Civil Procedure Section 116.340) Perhaps it'd be different for regular superior court cases, but from my layman's reading of other sections I don't think it'd matter.
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 1:12a
I notice there are a lot of huge holes in this sample examination.
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 1:15a
Yeah, I see at least one or two gigantic ones, or "don't" see them, actually.
"tortious interference with business relationship"
I need to read up more on that...
Best bet is to move to a "non-garnish" state in your quest to start over.
ArbolLoco
Tired Member
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 1:17a
herrtodd said: The people who run my PMB have a policy to refuse to accept process of service, as well as specific instructions to refuse to accept service of process.
For a California small claims action, all you have to do is leave it with the person at the counter. There's nothing for anybody to sign. (Read the instructions with form SC-104, or CA Code of Civil Procedure Section 116.340) Perhaps it'd be different for regular superior court cases, but from my layman's reading of other sections I don't think it'd matter.I will ask about this tomorrow. I've done substituted service and done the required "Due Diligence Declarations", but the person accepted service of process. I would foresee some major problems with proving that the service took place under these circumstances. But like I said, I'll check on this tomorrow... even this is a detour from the main purpose of this thread.
ArbolLoco said: codename47 said: True, they may contact your employer, but again that takes time and money.If they contacted my employer and did anything more than ask to speak with me, I would sue them for tortious interference with business relationship.
how else would they garnish ur wages if judgement creditor werent allowed to contact ur employer?
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Aug. 28, 2006 @ 1:25a
Well, it all depends on the state you live in. Move to a "no garnish" state, and their ability to contact your employer is diminished.
It also depends on how they do it. They can't just call your employer and start saying you are a bum deadbeat.
They can generally contact to effect a garnishment, assuming there isn't one already in place...wink, wink..
I just make this stuff up as I go along...no need to be worried...it can't happen to me...
Feb. 22, 2006 12:00 AM
A financial setup orchestrated by a convicted criminal has left more than a thousand homeowners in Arizona and California facing illegitimate liens on their homes.
The liens are being used to force people to pay thousands of dollars to a California collection agency. In order to get the liens lifted, homeowners are told by the agency that they must pay credit-card debts that, in many cases, have already been paid, written off in bankruptcies or aren't actually owed.
An Arizona Republic investigation found that Pacific States Credit Co. has filed more than 600 such liens in Maricopa, Pima and Pinal counties, as well as hundreds more in several counties in southern and northern California over the past two years. advertisement
The owner of Pacific States, Jeff McCoon, has a criminal record for defrauding businesses in Colorado, where he is wanted for arrest, accused of violating the terms of his probation. He also is awaiting trial in California on 148 felony counts of attempted extortion, forgery and filing false documents over liens he filed against homeowners in Orange County.
But authorities in Arizona were unaware that McCoon has been operating here since 2004, filing liens, threatening people with lawsuits, demanding payments for questionable debts and, in at least one case, forcing someone to sign over the deed to his home.
Steve Wilson, spokesman for the Arizona Attorney General's Office, said the allegations raise serious concerns.
"If they are true, we want to look into the case," he said.
McCoon, who lives in Oakhurst, Calif., a small farming community near Modesto, did not respond to repeated interview requests at his business. The phone number for Pacific States is answered by a message for another McCoon business, a corporation registered in the Bahamas as Sierra Consumer Acceptance.
John Brewington of Phoenix, who filed a complaint about McCoon with the attorney general this month, said authorities need to act fast.
"I think anyone who has ever had a debt is at risk from this guy," said Brewington, whose friend was hit with a lien. "In fact, anybody in the community is at risk. . . . I would strongly suggest that every person check their credit and check their property records."
Liens, which can ruin credit and prevent owners from selling or refinancing, cloud title to property. Someone trying to sell or refinance a house is often required to pay off a lien before the transaction can be completed. Liens are traditionally filed in cases in which real estate was used as collateral but can also be filed against homeowners for failure to pay income taxes and by contractors who are owed money for work on a home.
McCoon, however, has been filing liens based on credit-card debt, records show, even though legal and financial experts say typical credit-card debt is not secured by real estate. County records, court documents and letters from Pacific States show that McCoon has filed liens and then demanded payment for credit-card debt, along with payments for penalties and interest.
Court records show that liens sometimes were filed against people who never owed debt or against people who had discharged the debt years earlier in Bankruptcy Court.
Homeowner's surprise
Phoenix homeowner Kim DeGeorge said she didn't learn that Pacific States had filed a lien against her home until she tried to sell it last month.
"We had no idea. We didn't know until the first contract on our home was about to be signed," she said.
The lien was based on a Bank of America Visa card, which had been written off when the DeGeorges filed for bankruptcy. The lien stalled the sale for a couple of weeks.
"We called and called and called," DeGeorge said. "Finally, I left a message saying I was getting a lawyer."
A few days later, the lien was terminated.
"We didn't know what we were going to do. My husband wanted to pay it off and try to get it back later, just so we could sell the house," DeGeorge said.
Court records in Orange County, Calif., show that McCoon sent demand letters to escrow officers, offering to release the liens upon payment via wire transfer into his bank account.
He also sent homeowners documents titled "summons and complaint," along with copies of the liens, giving some the impression that they were being sued. But records showed the "summons" was never filed with the court.
"He doesn't give people an opportunity to prove the debts are valid. He files the liens as an opening salvo," said Leslie Young, Orange County deputy district attorney. "Eight of our victims never owed anybody any money in their lives."
Young has charged McCoon with 148 felony counts stemming from liens he filed against 144 homeowners in Orange County from 2003 to 2005.
Investigating McCoon
McCoon, who pleaded not guilty in Orange County last year, is free on $150,000 bond. But this is not his first run-in with the law.
On Feb. 10, a warrant was issued for McCoon's arrest in Arapahoe County, Colo., stemming from a 1996 conviction that earned him 14 years' probation. The warrant was issued after McCoon stopped making restitution to a series of businesses that authorities say he bilked out of $475,000.
In the Orange County case, eight homeowners paid McCoon a total of $75,025 to make liens go away, according to an affidavit to search McCoon's home and business.
Young said some of the liens were filed against parents whose children racked up credit-card debt. Others were cases of mistaken identity.
In one case, a disabled senior citizen couldn't sell her house because of the lien. Sandra Kellerman told prosecutors she didn't know the lien existed until she attempted to sell her home and retire to Florida. She said her real estate agent and the escrow officer sent numerous messages to Pacific States asking about the lien.
When those calls went unanswered, Kellerman said she was forced to put $50,000 in an escrow account to act as collateral against the lien. The money is still in escrow, and Kellerman's retirement plans have been put on hold.
Young said her investigation found that McCoon filed hundreds of liens in four other California counties.
Young said McCoon has indicated that some liens may have been filed by mistake because he collects both unsecured and secured debts and treats all of them the same.
Court records and interviews indicate he buys credit-card debt from a company called Unifund in Cincinnati.
Unifund buys bundles of debts at auction from banks and sells them to outside collection agencies. It pays pennies on the dollar for a chance to collect money from debtors that banks have written off.
Unifund Vice President Jeff Schaffer said virtually all the debt it buys is unsecured, meaning it has no connection to real estate.
Even if the credit-card debt was secured, it would apply only to items purchased with the card and not real estate, according to legal and financial experts. It would not result in a property lien.
Owner loses home
In Arizona and California, McCoon filed the liens through county recorders' offices, which have no authority to determine if liens are legitimate.
"If it meets the proper format, we record it," said Barbara Frerichs, a manager with the Maricopa County Recorder's Office. "Unfortunately, the laws don't even require the signature of the debtor."
She said her office was not aware of the liens filed by McCoon. But after reviewing them, Frerichs said her office will ask for an investigation.
"I'll definitely turn this over to our county attorney. We'll also turn it over to the Attorney General's Office," she said.
But any action will likely be too late to help Joe Peck.
"(McCoon) told me, if I didn't pay, he was going to take my house," the 31-year-old Peck said. "I was naive and scared. . . . I believed what he told me."
Peck, who owned a modest home in Chandler, said McCoon contacted him in 2004 over a Providian Visa card that he had stopped paying in 2001. Although the original debt was for $2,600, McCoon demanded $7,000 in penalties and interest.
"I begged him not to take my house. I told him, 'My daughter was born in this house,' " Peck said, choking back tears. "He offered to put me on a payment plan."
To qualify for McCoon's payment plan, Peck said he had to sign documents McCoon provided him, one of which was a deed to his house.
A year later, Peck filed bankruptcy and stopped paying. That's when he said Pacific States initiated foreclosure.
"(McCoon) said, 'That paper you signed says you can't file bankruptcy, and you still owe me,' " Peck said. "He said I signed away the rights to my house and he was going to take it."
Peck said his bankruptcy included the Providian Visa credit card, which was not secured by real estate. But instead of fighting McCoon, Peck said he quickly deeded his house to a real estate agent, who agreed to assume the mortgage and pay off Pacific States.
"(McCoon) got $7,000, and I lost my house," said Peck, who lives in an Ahwatukee apartment with his wife and daughter.
"I'm just an average guy. I didn't know any better," Peck said. "He scared me into thinking I was going to lose everything. He did a good job of it, too."
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