$25K cash or more from an AOR?

if you have other assets, homes etc you can get large reporting credit lines at 0% utilization. Some HELOCs report just like giant credit cards. I have a couple of 6 figure HELOCs that arent used but pump up my total available credit and reduce my utilization nicely.

$25,000 a year is not impossible, but not easy either. I have found that $15-20k can be done without too much planning and work. Every so often there a few 7% deposit accts come around, so it can be done with under $400k. Plus you should get at least $1000 in signup bonuses too.

vinouspleasure said: Have been reading/posting in hot deals for many years but new to this forum. We started a successful wine web site as a side business and it nets us around $25k/year. Our agreement with the shop is winding down so I'm looking for ways to replace this income and came across the AOR threads. I've skimmed a number of AOR threads, have seen references to people making > $25k/year with an AOR but I don't see anyone that's actually done it.

At current interest rates, it seems like I'd need about $500K of interest free credit. Given that I'd like to minimize credit line impact by lowering utilization, I'm thinking I'd need close to $1mm in credit. This seems like an unlikely number though my credit is very good and my total comp picture is very strong.

Any thoughts on whether this is a reasonable goal?

tia,
vp

This is what one of my goals are with my Mega App O Rama. If you have a 800+ score, your odds are good at getting alot of approvals with high lines, and 0%. The problem is maintaining the 0% long enough. It seems lately, more banks are increasing their BT fee maxes. If you can get 10-15 50k cards at 0%, it is easy. You may need to provide financials, and speak with underwriting for instant high limits. If you already have a good amount of credit at a bank, you can get a 20k approval, and reallocate a ton to the new 0% card you get. A friend of mine want to apply for 150-200 cards to maximize his credit for 0%, and buying power. Having alot of unused non 0% can help with overall utilization. Some people have 100-200k at 0% and still have high scores. You may have to do more than 1 app o rama, 7+ months apart to maximize. My Mega App O Rama thread

vinouspleasure said: SIS, The only asset that we can use for a credit line is our home but we have a decent amount of equity. You are the king of AOR, know it backwards and forwards. Have there been other documented cases of people managing to make this amount? I would also be a little concerned if I want to change jobs. Everyone in my industry checks credit ratings before hiring now...I do not recall seeing anyone report making over $25k in one year. But that doesnt mean it hasnt been done, or cant be done in a longer timeframe. I've made far, far more than $25k since I started.

scott1961 said: A $25k AoR does seem possible but don't think you could count on making that kind of money on a yearly basis. When I did mine I got some nice lines at first and then I had to work harder as my cards piled up. The last card was a BoA and got $11,500 CL, I called about getting an increase and got my first denial. They sent a letter that said I had enough available credit. Would think after doing that large AoR you would have used most of the major issuers and getting more credit from them on a yearly basis would get tougher. Also they are not dopes, Once they see they are making no money on you the juicy offers will stop. I doubt MBNA would ever give me another $100k for 14 months for $75.

Even with the 3% fee no max for 12mos, it can be slightly profitable. Especially if you are brave enough to deduct the fees from your taxes! Did BofA stop approving new 0% accounts? You can always reallocate, right?

No shortage of capped fees out there - chase/citi & fairly often no fee offers - you can look around here for ones from AMEX and citi. I agree though that in a 5-6% risk free environment $25K is pushing it. Although others - who do a much better job of keeping their util. rates < 50% have reported a lot more than the I've been keeping.

For those in highish tax brackets I think it's well worth focusing on the bonii to be had - tax free(mildly debateable) makes a lot of difference. Brokerages and CC offers are unlikely to add up to 25K but they are ever so sweet.

One caution: it strikes me as risky to do 2 AORs from the same address at once. That could raise a flag at one or more of the CC issuers. I would stagger them by 1-3 months.

There has been a few threads on this...my concern is with all of the extra work in logging cards, getting qualified purchases done, etc. and rather stagger a bit...

SUCKISSTAPLES said: if you have other assets, homes etc you can get large reporting credit lines at 0% utilization. Some HELOCs report just like giant credit cards. I have a couple of 6 figure HELOCs that arent used but pump up my total available credit and reduce my utilization nicely.

$25,000 a year is not impossible, but not easy either. I have found that $15-20k can be done without too much planning and work. Every so often there a few 7% deposit accts come around, so it can be done with under $400k. Plus you should get at least $1000 in signup bonuses too.

Can you give some examples of (no/low fee) HELOCs that report as "giant credit cards?" Using zero balance HELOCs as a utilization reduction strategy is brilliant. Thanks for the tip!

My only insight would be to inquire why you are giving up on your current income stream so easily. If that $25K is so important to you, why not fight to keep it? Maybe your next deal wouldn't be quite as nice, but it is better than going from $25K/year to $0/year. Maybe you could pull it off and still have about $15K/year profit. Then, you only need to replace $10K/year of revenue, and anything you get above that would be gravy.

Obviously, I don't know the situation, but it seems as if you are just saying "uncle," from the little information that was provided.

One caution: it strikes me as risky to do 2 AORs from the same address at once. That could raise a flag at one or more of the CC issuers. I would stagger them by 1-3 months.

From my experience, this is not a problem. I have 4 roommates (5 of us total). We have all done smaller App-O-Rama's at the same time with no problems - nobody even mentioned it (I doubt the CSR would even be allowed to mention it by law, as it would give one of us information on another's credit without their consent). We have all applied for AMEX Business cards at once for bonuses, no problem. Chase cards, Sony card, Citi cards, etc.

As long as you are 2 different people with actual credit reports that report the address I don't think they even notice. I would be surprised if a CSR even has the ability to look it up by address...a credit granting specialist would have to notice the address while looking at them individually and think something is fraudulent, which seems far less likely than other reasons CSRs have refused to grant credit in app-o-rama's (like too many inquiries or too many new accounts).

My only insight would be to inquire why you are giving up on your current income stream so easily.

its gone. The owner is investing lots and lots of money into an in-house system. I plan to approach another shop but it will take around 2 years before we are generating $25k again. Probably the best plan would be to approach multiple shops but, to be honest, it went from great hobby to exciting business to drudgery.

vinouspleasure said: Have there been other documented cases of people managing to make this amount? I don't know what a "documented case" would be here...? Also, I gather you don't mean making money from "AOR" here, but instead using your credit lines to invest other people's money...?

If that's what you mean, I make somewhere between $30K and $50K per year doing this, depending on how you calculate it. And I'm not nearly as aggressive as I could be either, preferring less time and less risk to maxing it out.

Don't know how much that helps, but maybe it answers OP's question....

Seriously don't you need a rather high household income before you can get a million in credit (spread over multiple issuers)?

therivler1 said: DH - This means that you are floating somewhere between 500K-1MM; is this correct?Yes. Most but not all at 0%. Do you have rental properties, or is that all CC?Yes to both questions--I'm not counting rental income or the like, this is OPM strictly from invested credit lines.

DaveHanson said: therivler1 said: DH - This means that you are floating somewhere between 500K-1MM; is this correct?Yes. Most but not all at 0%. Do you have rental properties, or is that all CC?Yes to both questions--I'm not counting rental income or the like, this is OPM strictly from invested credit lines.

DH, I don't mean to be intrusive, but would you be willing to share more details as to how you've been able to command such high returns? While I thought I was doing well at $18K/yr, You have managed to more than double my returns. If you are uncomfortable listing details, I can certainly understand. In either case, my hat's off to you for your achievement.

-Sammy

Disagree - I think the cc issuers in general know and care little about AORS. All they know is what's on your credit report - and it's very hard to tell money making credit from drowning in debt credit. Course a individual issuer can tell a lot from a account's pattern of interest payments - but there are a lot of fish in the sea even with all the mergers.

Game's been on for a long time - I've been doing my minor league variant(relative to Dave) for close to 15 years.

PS: Do agree on the day job. Nice sideline though.

You're wrong, Manuel. They know PRECISELY how many folks PIF their 0% balances every year at the expiration of the BT offer. Why?? Because they lose money on this activity, and banks ALWAYS monitor their losses!!!!!!!!!!!! However, I think that they let the AOR nonsense go on because there are so many UNDISCIPLINED folks who get in wayyyyyyyyyyyy over their heads with 0% BTs. Essentially, the banks see the AOR set as a "loss leader"

LustfortheMoment said: You're wrong, Manuel. They know PRECISELY how many folks PIF their 0% balances every year at the expiration of the BT offer. Why?? Because they lose money on this activity, and banks ALWAYS monitor their losses!!!!!!!!!!!! However, I think that they let the AOR nonsense go on because there are so many UNDISCIPLINED folks who get in wayyyyyyyyyyyy over their heads with 0% BTs. Essentially, the banks see the AOR set as a "loss leader"
I have to agree with the thinking but for some reason it does not seem to play out when I see people like SiS and DH playing the game for years. I have to think MBNA dropped the 3% fee and threw that $100k at me for $75 because they thought I might screw up. This will be a loss for them and I have to wonder would they ever give me a deal like this again? I know I can then try and get similar deals with other issuers but at some point you would run out of options. I mean I'm a dope and figured this out, Wouldn't they?

scott1961 said: LustfortheMoment said: You're wrong, Manuel. They know PRECISELY how many folks PIF their 0% balances every year at the expiration of the BT offer. Why?? Because they lose money on this activity, and banks ALWAYS monitor their losses!!!!!!!!!!!! However, I think that they let the AOR nonsense go on because there are so many UNDISCIPLINED folks who get in wayyyyyyyyyyyy over their heads with 0% BTs. Essentially, the banks see the AOR set as a "loss leader"
I have to agree with the thinking but for some reason it does not seem to play out when I see people like SiS and DH playing the game for years. I have to think MBNA dropped the 3% fee and threw that $100k at me for $75 because they thought I might screw up. This will be a loss for them and I have to wonder would they ever give me a deal like this again? I know I can then try and get similar deals with other issuers but at some point you would run out of options. I mean I'm a dope and figured this out, Wouldn't they?
This is exactly the kind of myopic reasoning that makes people wonder why if a coin-toss gives consecutive 5 heads it must be loaded. Banks don't see "AOR" at all. They see statistics of very large numbers, where AOR is small number statistics, merely a perturbation in the grand scheme of things.

You think that Banks have a little column in their annual reports that say "Loss due to FW AOR/BT-ers"? Think again. What they do have is "Money earned due to interest charged on balance", followed by a X where X is the amount of money owed to the bank. What they then do is tweak their rates AND promos, and see if X goes up or down. How long has 0% BT offers have been around? Years. How many CC issuers have 0% offers? All of them.

Now you tell me, they see AOR/BT as a loss leader. I tell you that you have no idea how big number statistics work.

Banks lose money all the time on bad loans. However, they more than compensate with investments and their performing loan portfolios. They allow the AOR scheme to go on simply because the vast majority of 0% BTs are done by snooks who wouldn't know an AOR is it hit them in the face. The banks make money on these fools and see their losses with Dave and Sucki as simply a cost of doing business.