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( I apologize if this has been discussed B4; but my searchs came up dry )

Why do banks delay crediting electronic ACH inter bank transfers ?

Electronic/ACH transfers should be immediate or no later than the next business day. But, no, the banks are playing the float with OUR money.

We get NO float on our checks anymore due to electronic processing, but the banks are holding our electronic transfers credits to THIER advantage.

I know banks CAN process ACH credits over night. For example. Last night (10pm) I set-up a link from BoA to iGOBank. The 2 mini verification deposits posted by 9am the next day at iGOBank.

But, when account holder does ACH transfer, the $$$ is in limbo for 2-3 days. ... i.e. debited from pushing or pulled account next day or so, but the credit does not show for 3 or 4 days. Though the recieving bank eventually shows the credit posted by the 3rd business day.

If the three business days is wrapped around a weekend/holiday, the consumer loses another two/three days interest.

I recently did a test...

1) ACH pull from CITI to IGOBank
01/11 reqst XFR from CITI
01/12 amount debited from CITI
01/17 amount credited at IGOBank ( -5 days lost interest )


2) ACH push from CITI to IGOBank
01/17 ( late ) rqst XFR from CITI to IGOBank
01/18 funds debited from CITI
01/22 funds credited at IGOBank ( -4 days lost interest )
( though did not appear till 1/23 )

3) snail-mail check from Fidelity Brokerage to IGOBank
01/18 mailed check to IGOBank
01/22 deposit credited at IGOBank
01/23 ? ( check still not cleared at Fidelity )
( +2 days interest ... and counting ... )
( update : check cleared FIDO on 01/24 ; +3 days double interest )

4) BT from BoA Corp. Plat CArd to IGOBank
01/17 rqst BT w/ CSR
01/19 BT posts debit to available CC credit-limit
1/22 BT posts to both CC and deposit account
( so, this was esentially NEXT day ! ... but I was THEIR MONEY ? )

regards
Jeff K.

[ ... pls no RED on 1st post, i'm v. sensitive ... lol ]

p.s. thanx to all the contributers/editors/monitors here. Though I won't go into detail, with the advice provided on FWF, since Oct, 06, I have cleared $3550 in bonuses, have $135K in new CL and have done 0/0 BT's for $93k ( another $2,500 in BT earnings ? ).

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SmallBizMan said: <blockquote><hr>in regards to brokerage accounts ;<br><br>I only have experience with fidelity ( fido ... (more)

BrunoB (Jan. 28, 2007 @ 12:12a) |

BrunoB said: <blockquote><hr>SmallBizMan said: <blockquote><hr>in regards to brokerage accounts ;<br><br>I only have exp... (more)

SmallBizMan (Jan. 28, 2007 @ 1:15a) |

SmallBizMan said: <blockquote><hr>BrunoB said: <blockquote><hr>SmallBizMan said: <blockquote><hr>in regards to brokerage... (more)

BrunoB (Jan. 28, 2007 @ 1:55a) |

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As long as the policy is disclosed and legal, a bank can do whatever they want. You can always take your business elsewhere.

Banks do offer expedited EFT transfers. Citi will let me send $1K in a 1 day transfer to a max of $2.5K a month out and I think a little more in for free with my account. B of A charges a fee but they offer slow and faster transfers.

If you really need the money moved quickly, it is hard to beat a wire transfer.

Many banks try to make EFT transfers slow and crappy. They try to earn money somewhere (wire transfer fees but if they can't do that, atleast they can get some float).

I dont know anything about iGOBank, but the online banks I've dealt with credit the deposit immediately, but hold the amount for a few days before it can be withdrawn.

For example, from INGdirect - On 1/22 request a deposit for 1/23 (a pull from my checking account), it credits to my savings account on 1/23, and is 'available for withdrawal' on 1/30.

Maybe that helps answer your question. Or maybe it has something to do with which account you are initiating the transfer with. Anytime I've pushed from the savings account into my checking (at BofA), it has always been available the next day (although the disclosures do say it may take 2-3 days) but I do initiate the transfer from the savings account not BofA.


SmallBizMan said: [Q]

1) ACH pull from CITI to IGOBank
01/11 reqst XFR from CITI
01/12 amount debited from CITI
01/17 amount credited at IGOBank ( -5 days lost interest )


2) ACH push from CITI to IGOBank
01/17 ( late ) rqst XFR from CITI to IGOBank
01/18 funds debited from CITI
01/22 funds credited at IGOBank ( -4 days lost interest )
( though did not appear till 1/23 )

3) snail-mail check from Fidelity Brokerage to IGOBank
01/18 mailed check to IGOBank
01/22 deposit credited at IGOBank
01/23 ? ( check still not cleared at Fidelity )
( +2 days interest ... and counting ... )

4) BT from BoA Corp. Plat CArd to IGOBank
01/17 rqst BT w/ CSR
01/19 BT posts debit to available CC credit-limit
1/22 BT posts to both CC and deposit account
( so, this was esentially NEXT day ! ... but I was THEIR MONEY ? ) Green from me, excellent post. Thank you for providing the results of your experiment.

I too have become disenchanted with the non-instantaneous nature of instant electronic commerce. I have been reading up on the ACH and FedWire systems and have come to the conclusion that one to five day delays by financial institutions in ACH and WIRED funds are intentional and not accidental.

I had a terrible experience with GMAC "Bank" that illuminated their ignorance (intentional or otherwise) of the concept of "wiring funds." The Fedwire system itself was set up as an infrastructure to inspire confidence, enhance commerce and lubricate the economy by allowing near-simultaneous debits and credits. Wiring by definition is a timeless event. GMAC "Bank," however, has, in a new form of math, multiplied timeless by infinity to get around two to three days of interest. Brilliant, for them.

It cracks me up that for most purposes the most profitable way for a consumer to deposit money is by mailing a check, a complete perversion of electronic commerce. So be it. Checks awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..................!

In the future avoid doing an ACH transfer on wednesdays and thursdays. This will decrease your hold by a day or 2.

Some banks use a third-party software or provider. For instance, both Citibank and BofA use CashEdge. Based on their brochure[/L], they have an "availability" option that lets you select 1-3 days.

thnx for replies ...

.... FWF'ers are always informative, thought-provoking and often-times profitable ...

... my follow-up comments...

1 ) yes, banking XFR terms are fully disclosed by IGOBank, CitiBank, etc. , and I was aware.. I just wanted to vent, that banks CAN and DO USE ACH to their advantage. I.e. ... When to THEIR advantage, the ACH transfer occurs by next day.... and conversely, when is to their advantage, they FLOAT/HOLD our XFR credits.

2) and pointing out that when ACH transferring between interest-bearing accounts, there can be lost-interest days. But, when mailing deposits; consumer actually gains a little double interest ( float ) days. When talking about $20k - $50K+ xfr's, daily lost interest is more than just cents. It should be noted that my transfers are to get CC BT $$ into my highest interest bearing account in fastest, most profitable manner. ex. I receive BT checks from CitiCArds, deposit into local Citbank-SAvings account (5% apr ; $100 sign-up bonus ... thnx FWF's) . then get to IGOBanking.com (5.3%) as soon as possible, after CITIBank clears ..another thread ? ). note. my everyday bank is BoA ( ... I know .... but, they're next door to my my business) , but they offer pitifull MM interest, which is why I use CitiBank as temporary depository for these checks.

3) Yes, we are all aware, most banks ( including IGOBanking ) offer NEXT-DAY ACH transfers . In fact, from what I've read here at FWF, IGOBanking also uses " CashEdge ". But, when transferring significant sums, NEXT-DAY ACH transfers are of little use, due to amount being limited to under $3k. note: as most FWF's are FEE averse, wire xfr's offer little value for us.

4) This 3 day delay may or may NOT be limited to IGOBanking. I'm sure other banks offer faster ACH XFRs. I was hoping other FWF'ers would tell me if their regular ( i.e. over $5k) ACH XFR's offered faster crediting and as an attractive an APY. Perhaps , since my IGOBanking account is less than one month old, the hold may just good business on their part. As this account gets aged, with more experience, the XFR's may get quicker. My own experience with ACH XFR's to/from Fidelty Brokerage is that they occur much quicker that IGOBanking.com.

5) And we all know, banks are the BEST ARBITRAGER'S; FWF's are just trying to get a small piece of their action. So, yes, considering DEAD interest days over weekends, one should never do 3-day XFR except on a Monday or Tuesday.

6) The recieving bank HOLD is of no importance. This account is just a (FDIC guaranteed) holding account for BT $$$. I am just just seeking safe, high returns and ease of access to funds.

to all FWF'ers ... have a profitable day.


Jeff K.

The Moneyline ACH between Fidelity and BofA/Wachovia works fast and there is no limit on amount. I routinely transfer amounts in 20 to 50K a pop, but also have 1 to 2K transfers. Dont see any difference.

The most recent ACH from Fido to Wachovia was requested on Jan 16, to prepare for the Estimate Tax Payment. Money showed up in Wachovia account Jan 17 as available. IRS cleared my check on 01/22 (mailed on 01/16). Fidelity showed Moneyline Paid on Jan 17 also.

Request withdrawal from Fidelity before 3:30pm, the ACH will be done after hour. Money shows up as Available, but not posted, the following day in either BofA or Wachovia.

Request withdrawal from the bank to Fidelity before 3:30pm, the ACH goes out in after hour from the bank. Fidelity will show pending un-settled Cash credit the following day. Post is done overnight and amount is credited after overnight processing.

I dont see any loss of interest other than a maximum of 1 day. In the above Fido to Wachovia ACH - there is 0 loss of day.

Just looked up an ACH from Wachovia to Fido, money out from Wachovia on 1/04, Fido showed Moneyline Received on 01/04. Again, there is 0 loss of day.

Seriously, the difference between 5.00 and 5.30 APY is only 0.08 per 10K per day, big deal.
0.053 - 0.05 = 0.003 0.003x10,000=30 30/365=0.08 A Day. 50K = 0.40 a Day, 7 days cost you 2.80 - not even enough for a McDonald meal.

Similar speed between my other broker, Interactivebrokers ACH to my banks (unfortunately there is no ACH facility from banks to Interactivebrokers.)

Dont do your ACH request over weekend / holidays - it would make it look much longer but in reality, it is still only ONE business day that you lose interest.

I think your problem is not the ACH - but the clearance of your BT checks that took time to clear and available to withdraw.

SmallBizMan said: [Q]2) and pointing out that when ACH transferring between interest-bearing accounts, there can be lost-interest days. But, when mailing deposits; consumer actually gains a little double interest ( float ) days. When talking about $20k - $50K+ xfr's, daily lost interest is more than just cents. It should be noted that my transfers are to get CC BT $$ into my highest interest bearing account in fastest, most profitable manner. ex. I receive BT checks from CitiCArds, deposit into local Citbank-SAvings account (5% apr ; $100 sign-up bonus ... thnx FWF's) . then get to IGOBanking.com (5.3%) as soon as possible, after CITIBank clears ..another thread ? ). note. my everyday bank is BoA ( ... I know .... but, they're next door to my my business) , but they offer pitifull MM interest, which is why I use CitiBank as temporary depository for these checks.

4) This 3 day delay may or may NOT be limited to IGOBanking. I'm sure other banks offer faster ACH XFRs. I was hoping other FWF'ers would tell me if their regular ( i.e. over $5k) ACH XFR's offered faster crediting and as an attractive an APY. Perhaps , since my IGOBanking account is less than one month old, the hold may just good business on their part. As this account gets aged, with more experience, the XFR's may get quicker. My own experience with ACH XFR's to/from Fidelty Brokerage is that they occur much quicker that IGOBanking.com.


As I said, I haven't had problems getting the ACH to post to my account (and start earning interest) in 1 day - be it a $25 or $10,000 transfer. In fact, depositing into my high-interest online savings, it posts and begins earning interest on 1/23, but isnt debited from my checking account until 1/24. When transfering from savings to checking, it comes out of my savings on 1/25 and is avaiable in my checking account 1/26 (the next day). Although not instant, my money is in one account one day and the other account the next, so there isnt any 'float' on the bank's behalf. And speaking of a float (there was a thread a couple weeks ago about this), I can do a 'pull' ACH from from ING Direct to Etrade Savings Account, in which the deposit is posted in Etrade on friday but not taken out of ING until Monday. That has been the only situation I've seen a float, and I benefit from it (unless I 'push' it, then the bank benefits).

I'm not discounting your venting, but I've failed to encounter the issues you seem to have.

donthvname said: [Q]Seriously, the difference between 5.00 and 5.30 APY is only 0.08 per 10K per day, big deal.
0.053 - 0.05 = 0.003 0.003x10,000=30 30/365=0.08 A Day. 50K = 0.40 a Day, 7 days cost you 2.80 - not even enough for a McDonald meal.


Nothing personal against you poster but this is 4 post today on how to calculate your lost interest per day and ever poster info is wrong. Not sure why everyone here wants to use or insists on using an APY for terms less than 1 year. APY = Annual Percentage Yeild. Does everyone on this board just not grasp that APY is a compounded rate over 1 year period and if you dont leave the priciple and interest in the account for full year you real rate is lower? . When you figure out what your lost interest is over a period less than one month there is no compounding so you need to use the "Rate" which all savings account are quoted as "Rate" and "APY". The "Rate" is always the lower number quoted. So you understand the difference 5.30% APY = 5.17% Rate as savings account pay interest monthly for periods less than 1 month there is no compouding at all.

clearance time for BT checks ??

pay attention ..

they are deposited at B&M Citibank ..

Interest there accrues from date of deposit ... non issue ..

???



APR /APY / "ARSE"

whats the diff ...

point of post is that banks steal this artificial ACH XFR time.

Should be no later than next bus. day . Unless banks have the slowest electrons on planet ... ?

this 3 day "s h e e t " is just a scam; for banks to float out $$$.

they pushed new legislation recently to allow electronic check payments, so our checks have minimal to no float, but bank are now "floating" eletronic payments which by definition should be instantaneous.

that was my point ...

as earlier responds observed from my " experiment / test " ....

Consumers can be $ ahead by mailing deposits between interest bearing accounts.

btw: The diff. in interest rates between accounts is irrelevant and not part of my original post. the point of maximizing return on BT $$$ ; is just that ...

have aprofitable day

Jeff K.


My point was if someone like donthvname is going to claim the lost interest is not a lot etc and then calculate and prove it to people atleast his calculation should be correct. That was my point.

in regards to brokerage accounts ;

I only have experience with fidelity ( fido if U like ).

Yes, fido ( as do most brokerage firms I suppose) do credit ACH " pulls" on same day done.
the " pull " $$$ is immediately credited; and earns interest in core accnt same day or can be invested.

Inversely, pushes from fido to my bank accnt ( BoA) is credited in 1 to 2 days max.

My original post is ONLY in regards to Inter-Bank transfers where the artificial, extra "delay/float" appears in the BANKS favor ..

have a profitable day

Jeff K.

OT...

since I on an a RANT now ( t.y. Cruzan ... best rum in world ...)

Why does CitiBank put a 7 day hold on CitiCArd BT check written on CitiBank check ???

... other than my account is only 3 weeks old .... lol

... would you trust a check from CitiBank >>>??? If You Were CitiBank ... ??? ..hmmm

( ... I'm still barely green ... but fun topic, even though we can;t change bank policy ... )

make some green today ...

... buy OIH ... ( You know we passed Peak Oil 5 years ago )

( .. disclosure ... I own OIH )


I have been trying to figure this one out also, Here is what I have come up with. Federal Reserve handles the bulk of ACH transfers and they state transfers will be completed within 3 business days, So I figure the banks that always take the 3 days like HSBC use the FED to handle their ACH transfers. Then you have a private processor, Electronic Payments Network (EPN) who handle the rest. Banks like Emigrant must use them


Once upon a time I scheduled an ACH pull from my Presidential Bank. I had a brainfart and available funds weren't there to cover it. The other bank pulled the money anyway leaving a debit balance at Presidential and a credit at the receiving bank, I -think- it was ING. The next day the transaction was reversed. I don't know why it wasn't rejected in the first place. I would think that they could nip that in the bud, but it seems banks computers just aren't as good as the ones they sell at Office Depot.

If you have more frequent transfers....try etrade with their 1 day transfers....and for larger balances that you want to hold longer, rate chase....

My credit union checking account has a bill payer function that more or less does away with the bank's float. I enter the bill to be paid, and one or two days later, the funds are deducted from my account and appear as a credit at my credit card company. (I haven't "timed" this, so there may be few hours/up to a day float in there, but overall I like it)

Contrast this with my Etrade "quick transfer" feature. It is anything but quick, requiring 3-4 days for funds to be credited to the receiving bank but deducting them after less than 1 day.

It would be nice is someone could explain the exact mechanics of an ACH transfer. I suspect some float time is intentionally built into the process to prevent fraud or simply as part of the process.

A friendly reminder: If you are moving big money around, use a "wire transfer", NOT an ACH push or pull. Sure there is a fee, but it is worth it to be assured your money is there, guaranteed, the next day at the latest.

Kanosh said: [Q]Contrast this with my Etrade "quick transfer" feature. It is anything but quick, requiring 3-4 days for funds to be credited to the receiving bank but deducting them after less than 1 day.

that hasnt been my experience and do transfers from multiple bank accounts...there is a cutoff time each day so if you transfer on a fri evening, maybe....it would help if people would post more useful info...for example, the eloan thread is "thread crapped" with folks not bothering to understand their bank products and then complaining after the fact about transferring on fri. This is repeated over and over on FW...

Kanosh said: [Q]Contrast this with my Etrade "quick transfer" feature. It is anything but quick, requiring 3-4 days for funds to be credited to the receiving bank but deducting them after less than 1 day.
Which receiving bank do you use? My Etrade quicktransfers are always in my BofA account the next morning. I have never had an issue with the transfer not being completed overnight.

HSBC Online:
Day 1: Request transfer in or out;
Day 2: Funds deducted from "from account"; shows on screen if it is an HSBC account;
Day 3: shows on screen if it is an outside account;
Day 4: Funds credited to "to account"; shows on screen as avail funds if it is an HSBC account;
Day 5: shows on screen as a transaction if it is an HSBC account; it depends for outside accounts but generally shows up.

I've been impressed with the speed of GMAC pulls. I've scheduled a pull as late as 5:30 PM (PST) and the money is in my GMAC account the next morning. (It stays in the other account for a couple more days.)

However, I will never again attempt to wire money in to GMAC.

dolmar said: [Q]donthvname said: [Q]Seriously, the difference between 5.00 and 5.30 APY is only 0.08 per 10K per day, big deal.
0.053 - 0.05 = 0.003 0.003x10,000=30 30/365=0.08 A Day. 50K = 0.40 a Day, 7 days cost you 2.80 - not even enough for a McDonald meal.


Nothing personal against you poster but this is 4 post today on how to calculate your lost interest per day and ever poster info is wrong. Not sure why everyone here wants to use or insists on using an APY for terms less than 1 year. APY = Annual Percentage Yeild. Does everyone on this board just not grasp that APY is a compounded rate over 1 year period and if you dont leave the priciple and interest in the account for full year you real rate is lower? . When you figure out what your lost interest is over a period less than one month there is no compounding so you need to use the "Rate" which all savings account are quoted as "Rate" and "APY". The "Rate" is always the lower number quoted. So you understand the difference 5.30% APY = 5.17% Rate as savings account pay interest monthly for periods less than 1 month there is no compouding at all.

I did not even pay attn to the rates the OP said were APY - just for simplicity sake to show the difference - if 10K difference is only 0.08 a day for an "inflated" Rate, as you so aptly pointed out, the difference would then be even less, may be by 0.01 or 0.02... Again, BIG DEAL. The point being made is, the difference is so tiny it is not even worth sweating. That also relates to your clarification of the RATE and APY. Yeah, 5.17 vs 5.30 = o.13% difference on the 10K per 365 days, that is a whopping $13 difference in the full course of a year. So, in the spirit of Government work - it does not worth to go to the accuracy of the RATE. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border=0>

I think one needs to pay attn to the daily cut off schedule to do the pull or push.

If you only miss the cutoff by a second, it would not go as expected. Happened on me with both brokers, Fidelity and Interactivebrokers.

In each broker's website, there is clear information about the cutoff time and about the Friday/Weekend requests.

Fidelity even posts information when there is a long weekend involved.

For wire transfer, Interactivebrokers would do it the same day if your request is put in before cutoff time. Fund shows up in my Wachovia account in the same evening, usually between 6 to 7pm as Available. I am impressed. Wachovia would even show at which time, down to minute, the fed fund is received.

The whole three day thing still pisses me off.

You see, with ACH, it all starts at the financial institution that requests the transfer, they are the "Originating" financial institution. They take a request and they send it out into the FedACH system. They may do this directly by using Fedline, or they deliver this to private networks, other banks, or service bureaus, which then pass it along to the Fed system.

One important caveat here is that no verification is done when the item is transmitted. The account's existance is not verified, and funds availability at the other insitution is not verified. Imagine scribbling down a transaction on a cocktail napkin, and sending it in the mail. That's ACH.

Every item has a "settlement date". This is the date that the transaction is desired to be posted at the Receiving depository financial institution. Settlement date is the latest that the transaction is supposed to post. But it may post earlier depending on the RDFI's whim.

If an item is transmitted on, say, Wednesday, then the earliest settlement date is Thursday. In fact, if they are requesting a debit (a "pull") then the only settlement date is Thursday, as debit requests are not allowed to be delivered more than one day early. A credit ("push") may be delivered 3 or so business days early, depending on the ODFI's whim.

This means that, if you're lucky at your bank, you might actually get your payroll deposit a day earlier than your coworkers, if you bank desides to post pending credits before their settlement date.

Now, let's say a transaction is sent on Wednesday, the RDFI tries to process it on Thursday, but there's a problem. The account is closed, there are no funds, the account does not exist, etc. They need to send back a "return" item, back out into the FedACH system, and back to the Originating insituttion. The receiving bank is generally required to do this same day (Thursday). The ODFI would probably react to this return on Friday, and reverse the pull, and maybe hit you up with a fee. There's really no feasible way to catch an error before it happens if you're transmitting data this way, it's all post-fact.

Incidentally, once an ACH transaction actually posts to your bank account, Reg CC rules require that the funds become 'available' (ready for withdrawal) by the next day.

So... what the hell happens when a bank uses a service like CashEdge? I have no idea, really. I guess that CashEdge may literally be working as a middleman. They request the pull from the other bank, they sit on it a day to ensure that the transaction is not rejected. They send send a transaction to the bank that uses the product, which posts the next day. I guess that equals about 3 days. The option to extend the transfer period might be to reduce reversal of transaction on the bank's side of things, or it might be an evil scheme to earn float on your money, or both.

Transferring money between saving and checking account using my credit union's webpage is done the moment you click "Submit", i.e. new balance is reflected immediately, and is available for withdraw from ATM. So there are no technical difficulty, even if it is interbank. Verifying fund availability can be done in a few milliseconds. Computer scientists have come up with zillions of ways to ensure the communications are not intercepted nor modified.

The long delay for interbank ACH is probably in part to prevent fraud.

Do most banks not charge for ACH transfers? I have a Citi account which lets me do free transfers "intra-institution" as Citi calls it. But, the other acount I have is with US Bank and they say theyll charge me $15 or so even for incoming transfers, So I just stick with mailing checks. Am I getting wrong info about the charge, why are ACH transfers so popular if you can transfer money with checks for free?

I know Zecco.com also charges $15 for transfers (incoming too right?)....So, whats wrong with plain old checks (This being fatwallet, $15 over and over again is a lot of money if not by itself)?

Jumbosaver said: [Q]Do most banks not charge for ACH transfers? I have a Citi account which lets me do free transfers "intra-institution" as Citi calls it. But, the other acount I have is with US Bank and they say theyll charge me $15 or so even for incoming transfers, So I just stick with mailing checks. Am I getting wrong info about the charge, why are ACH transfers so popular if you can transfer money with checks for free?

I know Zecco.com also charges $15 for transfers (incoming too right?)....So, whats wrong with plain old checks (This being fatwallet, $15 over and over again is a lot of money if not by itself)?

Each institution can obviously charge what they wish. It is up to consumer to be aware. The institutions I use (i.e. BoA, Citi, Chase, IGOBank, Fidelity) have no fees for ACH ( except BoA is $3-$10 for push, so I wouldn't use them). Yes, I would check again with your institutions, sounds like they may be referring to fees for "wire-transfers".

As my test/experiment demonstrated, if one wishes to collect a few double-dip interest days, mailing checks between interest-bearing accounts is the way to go. Just, be aware of lost-mail or misdirected deposits problems.

For those rate-chasers (like me), some of these accounts may be "on-line" access only, the institution may not have a local branch or the account may not offer check writing features.

In my case, I use BoA MyAccess Checking ( totally free / no mins. / no DD ) for everyday account and keep balance near zero. For my BT checks received, I physically deposit at local CiTiBank branch (earns 5% from date of deposit). When hold releases at CiTi ( about week ), I ACH to IGOBank ( for 5.3% ) . When minimum payments due on BT-CC's, I set-up payment via the CC website to draft payment directly from IGO on due date.

have a prfitable day ,, Jeff

SmallBizMan said: [Q]Jumbosaver said: [Q]Do most banks not charge for ACH transfers? I have a Citi account which lets me do free transfers "intra-institution" as Citi calls it. But, the other acount I have is with US Bank and they say theyll charge me $15 or so even for incoming transfers, So I just stick with mailing checks. Am I getting wrong info about the charge, why are ACH transfers so popular if you can transfer money with checks for free?

I know Zecco.com also charges $15 for transfers (incoming too right?)....So, whats wrong with plain old checks (This being fatwallet, $15 over and over again is a lot of money if not by itself)?

Each institution can obviously charge what they wish. It is up to consumer to be aware. The institutions I use (i.e. BoA, Citi, Chase, IGOBank, Fidelity) have no fees for ACH ( except BoA is $3-$10 for push, so I wouldn't use them). Yes, I would check again with your institutions, sounds like they may be referring to fees for "wire-transfers".

As my test/experiment demonstrated, if one wishes to collect a few double-dip interest days, mailing checks between interest-bearing accounts is the way to go. Just, be aware of lost-mail or misdirected deposits problems.

For those rate-chasers (like me), some of these accounts may be "on-line" access only, the institution may not have a local branch or the account may not offer check writing features.

In my case, I use BoA MyAccess Checking ( totally free / no mins. / no DD ) for everyday account and keep balance near zero. For my BT checks received, I physically deposit at local CiTiBank branch (earns 5% from date of deposit). When hold releases at CiTi ( about week ), I ACH to IGOBank ( for 5.3% ) . When minimum payments due on BT-CC's, I set-up payment via the CC website to draft payment directly from IGO on due date.

have a prfitable day ,, Jeff

Well I called U.S Bank and checked, they say that ACH transfers are listed in the same category as wire transfers which are $15 incoming and $25 outgoing.

But, what throws me off is this thread: Link to thread

U.S Bank is listed as treating ACH push as Direct deposit. So, if anyone has a clue about this please let me know....I dont have $15 to experiment i guess.

Can't you change your bank from the US Bank to someone else that is much more reasonable?

Even the biggies like BofA, Citi, Chase, Wachovia, all dont charge ACH fee, why you need to put up with US Bank?!

Incidentally, banks do have to pay a fee for every ACH item that they receive. Roughly 10 or 25 cents.

markkundinger said: [Q]Incidentally, banks do have to pay a fee for every ACH item that they receive. Roughly 10 or 25 cents.Of course they do, but it's way cheaper than having to process a physical check, talk on the phone, or have a teller wait on you... <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border=0>

Jumbosaver said: [Q]SmallBizMan said: [Q]Jumbosaver said: [Q]Do most banks not charge for ACH transfers? I have a Citi account which lets me do free transfers "intra-institution" as Citi calls it. But, the other acount I have is with US Bank and they say theyll charge me $15 or so even for incoming transfers, So I just stick with mailing checks. Am I getting wrong info about the charge, why are ACH transfers so popular if you can transfer money with checks for free?

I know Zecco.com also charges $15 for transfers (incoming too right?)....So, whats wrong with plain old checks (This being fatwallet, $15 over and over again is a lot of money if not by itself)?

Each institution can obviously charge what they wish. It is up to consumer to be aware. The institutions I use (i.e. BoA, Citi, Chase, IGOBank, Fidelity) have no fees for ACH ( except BoA is $3-$10 for push, so I wouldn't use them). Yes, I would check again with your institutions, sounds like they may be referring to fees for "wire-transfers".

As my test/experiment demonstrated, if one wishes to collect a few double-dip interest days, mailing checks between interest-bearing accounts is the way to go. Just, be aware of lost-mail or misdirected deposits problems.

For those rate-chasers (like me), some of these accounts may be "on-line" access only, the institution may not have a local branch or the account may not offer check writing features.

In my case, I use BoA MyAccess Checking ( totally free / no mins. / no DD ) for everyday account and keep balance near zero. For my BT checks received, I physically deposit at local CiTiBank branch (earns 5% from date of deposit). When hold releases at CiTi ( about week ), I ACH to IGOBank ( for 5.3% ) . When minimum payments due on BT-CC's, I set-up payment via the CC website to draft payment directly from IGO on due date.

have a prfitable day ,, Jeff

Well I called U.S Bank and checked, they say that ACH transfers are listed in the same category as wire transfers which are $15 incoming and $25 outgoing.

But, what throws me off is this thread: Link to thread

U.S Bank is listed as treating ACH push as Direct deposit. So, if anyone has a clue about this please let me know....I dont have $15 to experiment i guess.

The ACH fees at US Bank are if you initiate the ACH transaction from US Bank. If you have money deposited or withdrawn from the account initiated from an outside institution, there are no charges.

Ex: If I "push" money into HSBC from USBank.com, I will be charged a fee. If I "pull" money from my US Bank account using HSBC's website, I am not charged a fee. Because a direct deposit is a transaction initiated from an outside account, there is no fee to receive the DD.

Many cheap/free checking accounts operate the same way, but most high yield savings and brokerages offer free ACH both ways because they want your money <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border=0>

donthvname said: [Q]Can't you change your bank from the US Bank to someone else that is much more reasonable?

Even the biggies like BofA, Citi, Chase, Wachovia, all dont charge ACH fee, why you need to put up with US Bank?!

Well its just that I have long running credit cards with them and its easier to pay bills online using the checking account rather than mailing the check in because you cant link external accounts with US Bank unlike AMEX etc.

Thanks StartingMoney, the info is much appreciated. Im gonna try initiating both pull and push ACH transactions from my Citi Account.

SmallBizMan said: [Q]in regards to brokerage accounts ;

I only have experience with fidelity ( fido if U like ).

Yes, fido ( as do most brokerage firms I suppose) do credit ACH " pulls" on same day done.
the " pull " $$$ is immediately credited; and earns interest in core accnt same day or can be invested.

Inversely, pushes from fido to my bank accnt ( BoA) is credited in 1 to 2 days max.

My original post is ONLY in regards to Inter-Bank transfers where the artificial, extra "delay/float" appears in the BANKS favor ..

have a profitable day

Jeff K.
this is not true. yes, if you pull 1K, it will be available for purchases same day, but it will not receive interest same day. It will receive interest the following day. to see my point, make this experiment: push and pull 1K on the same day. push will cost you margin interest same day whereas pull starts collecting interest the next day (assuming $0 core balance). i.e., they will not cancel each other out. i have tried this so many times...

BrunoB said: [Q]SmallBizMan said: [Q]in regards to brokerage accounts ;

I only have experience with fidelity ( fido if U like ).

Yes, fido ( as do most brokerage firms I suppose) do credit ACH " pulls" on same day done.
the " pull " $$$ is immediately credited; and earns interest in core accnt same day or can be invested.

Inversely, pushes from fido to my bank accnt ( BoA) is credited in 1 to 2 days max.

My original post is ONLY in regards to Inter-Bank transfers where the artificial, extra "delay/float" appears in the BANKS favor ..

have a profitable day

Jeff K.
this is not true. yes, if you pull 1K, it will be available for purchases same day, but it will not receive interest same day. It will receive interest the following day. to see my point, make this experiment: push and pull 1K on the same day. push will cost you margin interest same day whereas pull starts collecting interest the next day (assuming $0 core balance). i.e., they will not cancel each other out. i have tried this so many times...


[Q]i have tried this so many times

... why ... ?

SmallBizMan said: [Q]BrunoB said: [Q]SmallBizMan said: [Q]in regards to brokerage accounts ;

I only have experience with fidelity ( fido if U like ).

Yes, fido ( as do most brokerage firms I suppose) do credit ACH " pulls" on same day done.
the " pull " $$$ is immediately credited; and earns interest in core accnt same day or can be invested.

Inversely, pushes from fido to my bank accnt ( BoA) is credited in 1 to 2 days max.

My original post is ONLY in regards to Inter-Bank transfers where the artificial, extra "delay/float" appears in the BANKS favor ..

have a profitable day

Jeff K.
this is not true. yes, if you pull 1K, it will be available for purchases same day, but it will not receive interest same day. It will receive interest the following day. to see my point, make this experiment: push and pull 1K on the same day. push will cost you margin interest same day whereas pull starts collecting interest the next day (assuming $0 core balance). i.e., they will not cancel each other out. i have tried this so many times...


[Q]i have tried this so many times

... why ... ?

to move money from linked bank A to linked bank B through Fidelity core account. i did concurrent large transactions (push and pull) on a $0 core account, analyzed the results, called Fidelity, and confirmed how they debit/credit interest on these transactions.



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