MikeR397 said:
I don't see how that qualifies as day trading?! Short term trading w/o any tax consequences is a great benefit of IRA's.. If you don't feel comfortable doing it by all means sit aside, but there's no reason to knock anyone else for it. Also, please post constructive criticism to people's comments. Posting pure sarcastic bs is not appreciated by anyone.Ifyouhavetoask, not to argue over semantics, but it's not really day trading. I am buying and selling more about once every 2/3 weeks (whatever, you can call it day trading if you want ). The reason I am doing this now is because:

1)I have ZERO $ commissions
2)I pay ZERO $ in ANY capital gains I ever make.
3)I have that kind of time this summer at my job before I start law school.
4)I made 9.5% absolute return on my principal in the month of June alone. How much did you make?

Next, keep in mind I am 22 years old, and just opened my Roth 4 months ago (so I have a starting principal of 4k). If I had a substantial Roth, I would likely not actively trade most my stocks like this. Furthermore, I am investing in indicies (actually ETF's of indicies so I can get the $0 commissions). The rules of my Roth game consist of the following:

1) Buy only ETF's based on broad indicies (foreign and domestic) or very well diversified mutual funds
2) Sell when I make a short term profit that looks abnormal to me (completely subjective, usually around 3%+)
3) Buy after a short term loss that looks abnormal to me (again, subjective, such as if it falls 3%+ in a day/week)
4) If I buy, and it drops, I will be patient until it rebounds and I profit. These are well diversified indicies/mutual fund ETF's and in the long run, I stand essentially no risk of not making a solid return.

I'm just trying to take advantage of the peaks and troughs during the eventual upward ride

Does anyone that has been through the 1999 crash find this post funny? Keep going 22 year old, you are probably smarter than people that have had money in the market for large bear markets in the past. After all the last time the market crashed you were 15.

I just looked at a couple of my funds and they returned similar numbers, you know what I did last month trading NOTHING!!!

I thought I knew it all when I was his age (although I had a roth opened way before that) I learned that I didn't.

ScootyPuffSr said:
I never said I could time the market.

I said you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes the meaning and definitions of day trading and upper middle class.

There is no true definition of day trading and upper middle class.

Day trading is a generic term, used to describe an attempt to profit from jumping in and out of stocks. Some people consider it to mean that you don't hold a position overnight. Some people use it to describe timing the market in general. Do you also believe that a "penny stock" has to be less than $1.00?

"Upper Middle Class", even using today's bastardized definition, doesn't include the working class who contribute to 401k's and get a weekly/semi-weekly paycheck.

A successful doctor, attorney, et al, are upper middle class.

A code monkey at Cicso, even if he's making $120k/year, is not upper middle class. He's a wage slave.

jayK said:ifyouhavetoask said:No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.Yet you seem to already know what will happen to the dollar and the credit market in the next several months.

LOL, priceless. She's assured that no one can time the market but she's sure the housing market/credit bubble will collapse. Btw, I happen to agree with you about housing/finance, but that's not relevant to this thread..

Again, if you don't feel comfortable please sit aside. I'm sure people have made plenty of $(myself included) on the short side of the trade lately. No one ever said timing was easy, or that people can/will pick exact peak/troughs, but there's money to be made. You're very foolish to think no one can time the markets. There are plenty of mutual funds out there that will say otherwise, forgive me if I don't post their tickers..

czarandy said: Regardless of what you might think it means, upper middle class is usually defined as earning > $100k, and includes professionals like lawyers, doctors, executives, professors, etc.

I agree, partially. Someone with a true profession... a successful doctor, lawyer, et al, may be upper middle class.

The problem is, we've stretched the definition of "profession" to include anyone who has a job and a title. We've stretched the definition of "upper class" to include anyone who can afford cable tv and a cell phone

Dealguy123 said:jayK said:ifyouhavetoask said:No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.Yet you seem to already know what will happen to the dollar and the credit market in the next several months.

LOL, priceless. She's assured that no one can time the market but she's sure the housing market/credit bubble will collapse. Btw, I happen to agree with you about housing/finance, but that's not relevant to this thread..

Again, if you don't feel comfortable please sit aside. I'm sure people have made plenty of $(myself included) on the short side of the trade lately. No one ever said timing was easy, or that people can/will pick exact peak/troughs, but there's money to be made. You're very foolish to think no one can time the markets. There are plenty of mutual funds out there that will say otherwise, forgive me if I don't post their tickers..

A long term investor knows one thing: That the equity markets will rise over time.
A market timer trys to time those moves.

If you cannot see that the credit markets are collapsing, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.

What I am saying is this: If you see the train coming, get out of the way. You can get back on the track later on, once the train has passed. I'm not suggesting, by any means, that you try to time the train's passage. That would be foolish.

richfish13 said:120k a year put you in the top 1% of income earners in the world. Yeah, 120k, man that guy has it rough.

It's not about income.

It's about control of your own life.

A successful doctor or lawyer, who runs their own practice, is in control of their own life, and is considered upper middle class.

Making $120,000/year by working at Apple Computer, is nothing more than agreeing to trade your life for X number of dollars per year. That's not freedom, and that's not independence.

A big part of your social class involves your ability to control your own destiny. If you're investing in a 401k plan, and your boss can fire you, you aren't free. You're trading your freedom for money. That's not "upper" anything.

dmlavigne1 said:MikeR397 said:
I don't see how that qualifies as day trading?! Short term trading w/o any tax consequences is a great benefit of IRA's.. If you don't feel comfortable doing it by all means sit aside, but there's no reason to knock anyone else for it. Also, please post constructive criticism to people's comments. Posting pure sarcastic bs is not appreciated by anyone.Ifyouhavetoask, not to argue over semantics, but it's not really day trading. I am buying and selling more about once every 2/3 weeks (whatever, you can call it day trading if you want ). The reason I am doing this now is because:

1)I have ZERO $ commissions
2)I pay ZERO $ in ANY capital gains I ever make.
3)I have that kind of time this summer at my job before I start law school.
4)I made 9.5% absolute return on my principal in the month of June alone. How much did you make?

Next, keep in mind I am 22 years old, and just opened my Roth 4 months ago (so I have a starting principal of 4k). If I had a substantial Roth, I would likely not actively trade most my stocks like this. Furthermore, I am investing in indicies (actually ETF's of indicies so I can get the $0 commissions). The rules of my Roth game consist of the following:

1) Buy only ETF's based on broad indicies (foreign and domestic) or very well diversified mutual funds
2) Sell when I make a short term profit that looks abnormal to me (completely subjective, usually around 3%+)
3) Buy after a short term loss that looks abnormal to me (again, subjective, such as if it falls 3%+ in a day/week)
4) If I buy, and it drops, I will be patient until it rebounds and I profit. These are well diversified indicies/mutual fund ETF's and in the long run, I stand essentially no risk of not making a solid return.

I'm just trying to take advantage of the peaks and troughs during the eventual upward ride

Does anyone that has been through the 1999 crash find this post funny? Keep going 22 year old, you are probably smarter than people that have had money in the market for large bear markets in the past. After all the last time the market crashed you were 15.

I just looked at a couple of my funds and they returned similar numbers, you know what I did last month trading NOTHING!!!

I thought I knew it all when I was his age (although I had a roth opened way before that) I learned that I didn't.I don't claim to be an expert. I never did. I do have some financial knowledge (and I realize there is so much more to learn), but I am not inept.

I also didn't recommend my "timing" strategy to anyone. I'm happy you were able to match my return in June, congrats.

Finally, let me emphasize again, the biggest reason I am doing this now is for fun. Some people play online poker with thier money and get kicks when they win. I try to do well in the stock market by actively trading. I don't play poker, I don't do any "typical" form of gambling (don't call the stock market gambling as I don't want to get into that conversation). Trust me, when I'm back in school full time or slaving away at as an associate, I'll be a good boy and max out my 401k, and take advantage of any other opportunities I am still eligible for (probably not Roth anymore then). I'll toss the cash in, leave it alone, and watch is grow. This active trading parade only lasts one more month for me anyway until class starts again. Until then, it serves as a form of entertainment for me. Right now, I'm getting paid for my entertainment which is more than most can say .

jayK said:ifyouhavetoask said:I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.

ifyouhavetoask said:Put your money in Euros right now. Wait about 4-6 months... let the credit markets get blown out. Wait for the blood in the streets and a panic in the dollar. Then, start looking for opportunity.OMG, that is so perfect!

ifyouhavetoask said:A long term investor knows one thing: That the equity markets will rise over time.
A market timer trys to time those moves.

You can do long term investing with some "timing" here and there. Markets don't go up forever, and taking some $ off the table at times is actually very wise. Like I said, your odds may not be great, but it's not even close to completely random. I called the housing bust in Dec '04, it came in summer '05. If I would've bought a place back then, I'd be out 20%+ of the initial investment. So, was I extremely lucky or did my due diligence and research pay off? I won't argue that..

ifyouhavetoask said:If you cannot see that the credit markets are collapsing, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.

What I am saying is this: If you see the train coming, get out of the way. You can get back on the track later on, once the train has passed. I'm not suggesting, by any means, that you try to time the train's passage. That would be foolish.

I agree with you about credit market collapsing, and your belief in that should mean something to your investing. If it doesn't to you fine, but going short some financials might be a smart move. If it's going to collapse, then why not put some $ behind your beliefs? That's the boat I'm in, you just don't put $ where your mouth is. In order to beat the market you have to have conviction/guts and sometimes be contrarian. Again, saying no one beats the market is completely false. I am certainly no expert, but when the downside risk becomes much higher than the upside potential, I take some $ off the table.

That's a very poor analogy, and very confusing..? You're saying if you see a train coming, get out of the way.. that's timing if I've ever heard it?! lol In terms of timing, the point is that if you see a train at all, that means it's all over, so you can't "get out of the way" by definition. If you believe you can "get out of the way," you've just timed the market, only difference is that you didn't have the guts to sell.

Venturion said:MikeR397 said:Right now, I'm getting paid for my entertainment which is more than most can say .Actually, I believe that's called defrauding your employer... no offense implied, I'm doing it now as well... w00t! Group HUG!